asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the progress of the current Anglo-Irish talks.
2.
Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers - Anglo Irish Talks.
1.
asked the Taoiseach if a firm date has now been set for his next meeting with the British Prime Minister.
Discussions have been taking place at official and ministerial level between the Government and the British Government with the objective of devising a framework and measures which would help to bring movement towards peace and stability, in place of the violence and instability that have mainly affected Northern Ireland but have also had their impact in this part of Ireland and in Britain. It is, naturally, the wish of the Government that the talks will be successful in attaining this objective but it is not yet possible to make a final judgement on this. The discussions are in the concluding stages but have not yet been completed. When they have been brought to a conclusion and the overall outcome can be seen, the Government will assess it and decide whether it can be recommended for implementation. Until then it would be neither useful nor appropriate to go beyond the terms of the present reply.
Arrangements for any meeting with the British Prime Minister, in accordance with normal practice, would be announced simultaneously in Dublin and London close to the time of the meeting.
In the absence of any broad outline from the Government of the way in which the negotiations are taking place and the inordinate length of time these talks are going on, I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that rumour and speculation are constant, indeed rife, about all sorts of suggestions and ideas. The Taoiseach appears to be keeping certain parties aware of what is happening——
A question, please, Deputy.
While not giving specific details of what is likely to emerge from the talks, could the Taoiseach at least give us specific details of things which will not emerge from the talks? For instance, is there going to be a hot pursuit corridor? Can the Taoiseach at least give us some indication of what information he is giving to the SDLP? Could this House be told at least as much as other parties outside this House?
I can give the negative answer which the Deputy seeks, that there is no question of a hot pursuit policy.
Is the Taoiseach aware that the unprecedented, long and protracted delay in conducting these matters has aroused a great deal of doubt, fear and suspicion in people's minds which have been accentuated by statements by him in which he uses gamblers' language about 50/50 chances? Is he aware that this is a most unsatisfactory and dangerous way of conducting the affairs of this nation? Will he acknowledge that these negotiations have gone on for so long that the normal precedent about retaining secrecy and confidentiality can no longer apply, that the situation now is such that he must inform the House, if not about what is taking place in the discussions, at least give us some assurances about what is not being discussed?
It is very difficult to reply to a negative question phrased so broadly. At least Deputy Mac Giolla asked a specific question. What is taking place in the negotiations is based on the Forum report. Our concern is to secure an outcome which would be in accord with and based on the principles set out in Chapter 5.2 which sets out the proposals of the report.
If the Taoiseach will not give me any information on that point perhaps he would give me a categoric assurance that, in the name of the Irish people, he will not agree to anything which would undermine Ireland's case for unity or which would be in conflict with the principles of national unity enshrined in our Constitution. It would not be disclosing any secrets or constitute a breach of any confidentiality if he were to give me that categoric assurance.
It is scarcely necessary to give the Deputy the assurance that the Government will do nothing which would be contrary to the Constitution.
Would the Taoiseach advert to the fact that on a number of occasions he has stated that radical changes in the present structure and method of working of the security forces are necessary to end alienation in Northern Ireland? May we take it that, without such radical changes, there will be no agreement? Will the Taoiseach and the Government insist on the removal of the present Chief Constable of the RUC before any agreement in which security might eventually be involved is contemplated? Will the Taoiseach indicate whether he is prepared to continue discussions with a Government, a servant of which is prepared in the middle of those discussions to go to the United States and, in effect, stab him and his colleagues in the back?
I do not propose to be dragged down various alleyways but I gather there will be a question taken dealing with the comments of the Chief Constable.
I did not hear what the Taoiseach said.
I said that I do not propose to be dragged down various alleyways but that the particular point raised by the Deputy is the subject of a Private Notice Question which I understand will be taken in due course.
I am sorry to have to tell the Taoiseach that the Ceann Comhairle has decided that my Private Notice Question is not in order. Is that the position?
I have ruled on the question which the Deputy submitted and if a further question is submitted I will also rule on it.
The Taoiseach obviously expected that my question about the behaviour of the Chief Constable of the RUC would be allowed and——
I am not going to be dragged into a discussion on a ruling either as a result——
You will be dragged into it.
Please, Deputies.
I see that we are in for a bumpy ride this session.
I will not be dragged into a discussion regarding my ruling here either by what Deputy Haughey or the Taoiseach says.
This is a matter of major national importance and great public interest.
Perhaps we will deal with it some other time but we must move on.
The Taoiseach has obviously indicated that he was prepared to answer a question on this matter. I am asking if he is prepared to continue negotiations with a Government, a prominent servant of which behaves in this despicable fashion and, as I said, in effect, stabbed him and his colleagues in the back, or is the Taoiseach prepared to say to the British Government that there can be no further discussions until this matter is cleared up? On that point, am I right in believing that the British Government have already given what can only be regarded as a contemptuous, inadequate and skimpy reply to the protests made by him and his Government?
I can only say that negotiations are continuing.
The national television and radio services announced today the terms of a reply given by the British Government and the import of the reply is to the effect, apparently, that there was justification for what this servant of the British Government said.
I cannot allow a discussion on this matter.
It might be unpleasing to your ears but that does not mean that I am not entitled to ask it.
Deputy Haughey should not have said that. I know he does not mean it.
Is the Taoiseach aware of the reply given this day by the British Government to the protest that he made? Is the Taoiseach aware of the contents of the reply given by the British Government today?
I am aware of the contents of the British statement issued today in which, inter alia, it was stated that the speech by the Chief Constable had been seriously misrepresented in the media——
(Interruptions.)
Did the statement go on to say that while co-operation on security was satisfactory there was room for improvement, thereby lending justification to and standing over these reprehensible statements by the Chief Constable? Is that the position?
The position is that the Secretary of State noted, among other things, that the Chief Constable paid tribute to the Garda force, that the RUC and the Garda had a good relationship along the Border at working level and that there was no lack of will by the Garda to combat terrorism.
Is the Taoiseach prepared to accept a situation where, in spite of all his grovelling and protestations, the British Government are prepared to stand over this reprehensible castigation of him and his colleagues and our security forces? Is he prepared to accept that or are there any limits to which he is not prepared to go?
I do not accept what the Deputy said, because, as I have just pointed out, it has been stated that the remarks of the Chief Constable were misrepresented and that he said other things which I have just quoted. The Deputy, therefore, is not working on the basis of information published.
This is a matter of very grave import and importance. You have ruled out my Private Notice Question because you said it was not urgent. I will challenge that later but I will not be denied my right to find out from the Taoiseach the Government's exact position on this crucial issue.
I cannot allow a debate on a question.
The British Government are in effect standing over what their servant said and I want to know what the Taoiseach is going to do about it. Is there any manliness left in the Government or are they going to grovel forever?
(Interruptions.)
I have allowed a very generous contribution here, we must move on to the next question.
The Taoiseach should get off his knees and answer the question.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
Perhaps the Taoiseach should call on Mrs. Thatcher to resign as I think she is at the back of the whole thing.
Does Deputy Mac Giolla have a question?
I have been waiting for the last ten minutes to ask a question. It is a continuation of the original question I asked and it has a direct bearing on the question. Is the Taoiseach aware that there is a general perception that the SDLP are privy to the negotiations and talks taking place although we are not included and does he agree that this perception by the Unionists will ensure that no matter what comes out of the talks they will bitterly oppose them? Has there been any attempt to give information to the Unionists or to negotiate with them on the same basis as with the SDLP?
The Minister for Foreign Affairs and I have, on different occasions, made clear our approach to this problem, addressing ourselves specifically to the Unionist population.
In regard to the last question by the Leader of the Opposition as to what the Taoiseach was going to do about the statement made by the Chief Constable of the RUC, could I ask the Taoiseach whether the answer should be — and always should have been — that we tell Mrs. Thatcher and company to look after the Border themselves as we do not want it and we are keeping it there with money which we do not have?
The Deputy is aware of the Government's position with regard to the IRA and other paramilitary forces. We will do our duty in respect of maintaining the security of the State and in ensuring that the lives of people on this island are protected as far as is in our power.
(Interruptions.)
Did the Taoiseach state earlier that the next meeting between himself and the British Prime Minister would take place in either Dublin or London?
I said that any arrangements for a meeting with the British Prime Minister would, in accordance with normal practice, be announced simultaneously in Dublin and London close to the time of the meeting.
Where is it proposed to hold this meeting? Is he in a position to refute the suggestion that it may be held in Belfast?
No decision has been taken about the meeting. I explained to the Deputy and I thought he had taken on board what I said, that the discussions are in the concluding stages but have not yet been completed. When they have been brought to a conclusion and the overall outcome can be seen the Government will assess it and decide whether they will recommend it for implementation. In those circumstances the question of the location of the meeting is entirely premature.
May I ask the Taoiseach——
I am sorry, Deputy, I am moving to the next question. I am calling Question No. 3 and I ask the Taoiseach to answer it.
I wish to ask a supplementary question.
I am sorry, Deputy. I have been more than generous.
It is hardly fair. We were allowed only two supplementary questions but Deputy Haughey was allowed six or seven.
I happen to represent over 70 Deputies.
The Deputy did not think it worth his while to put a question down on the talks.
I have called Question No. 3.