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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Jun 1986

Vol. 367 No. 9

Estimates, 1986. - Vote 50: Energy (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £9,242,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Energy, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain loans, subsidies, grants and grants-in-aid.

The Estimate for my Department is relatively small. Even with the addition of the Supplementary Estimate which I am also moving to-day, it amounts to only a small fraction of one per cent of the total Estimates for the Public Service. However, the relative importance of the role of my Department bears no relationship to its quite small demands on the public purse — demands which, I should say, are offset many times over by the contributions which, together with its agencies, it makes to the revenues of the State.

I should like, therefore, first to comment briefly on the Estimate itself and then go on to outline, in more detail, the role which I see for my Department in the existing energy supply situation and its principal activities in fulfilling this role. Finally, I propose to comment on the circumstances which gave rise to the specific provision which is made in the Supplementary Estimate.

Deputies will note that the original Estimate for the year is just short of £9.25 million and shows an increase of £101,000 in net expenditure over the outturn for 1985. An important factor in keeping the net increase so low is the estimated increase of £547,000 in the Appropriations-in-Aid, mainly because of increased receipts for hydrocarbon exploration licences.

The current Estimate shows an increase of £428,000 in gross current expenditure, with increases in 12 subheads totalling £597,000 being offset by decreases in subheads totalling £169,000. Apart from the increase of £151,000 in the provision for salaries and wages, subhead A1, the increases are fairly evenly divided among the current provisions. The three capital services show an overall total increase of £220,000 with increases in subheads P — FEOGA, Western Aid Electrification, £421,000 and N — New and Renewable Sources of Energy, £71,000 being offset by a decrease of £272,000 in subhead M — Bord na Móna — Grants for Private Bog Development.

I should like to address the question of energy policy. When this House debated the Energy Estimates almost a year ago it took place in a reasonably stable international environment for energy, which had prevailed for some time.

Energy policy, however, has to cope with the unexpected and maintain continuity over a long time frame. This is because of the key role of energy in our economic and social lives and the large investments needed to supply and deliver energy as well as the long time span needed to bring about fundamental change in the structure of energy supply and consumption.

The last 12 months have been dramatic in the energy markets. The decline in crude oil prices and in the price of oil products since last December is of major significance to the economy. Unlike the upsets in energy markets in 1973 and 1979, the immediate impact of these changes is likely to be beneficial to the economy. It will be useful also to reconsider the thrust of energy objectives and energy policies in the light of the lower oil prices now prevailing.

The most striking aspect of that fall in oil prices has been its magnitude. Quotations for spot delivery of crude oil have been fluctuating between $10 and $15 per barrel, depending on the basis taken, and this represents a fall in dollar terms of the order of 60 per cent with respect to the beginning of 1986. The price of netback crude, however, is somewhat higher, reflecting rather firmer prices for oil products than would be indicated by spot crude quotations. The impact of lower crude prices has impacted differentially on different products. The decreases have been greatest for heavy fuel oil which is available to bulk purchasers at less than half the price payable only six months ago.

The fall in oil prices has been accentuated by the rise in the value of the Irish pound against the dollar. As oil is traded internationally in dollars, this strengthening of the Irish currency against the dollar has compounded the price fall in Irish currency terms. Indeed, it is noteworthy that there has been weakness in the dollar price of oil over the last few years. The reduction in the value of the dollar alone would have reduced the cost of oil by about 25 per cent even if the price of oil remained unchanged.

This reverses the position of previous years when most of the non-dollar currency countries, including Ireland, experienced increasing energy prices. While this fall in oil prices is mostly beneficial and is to be wholeheartedly welcomed, it has nevertheless within it the seeds of major problems in the long run which have to be recognised and provided for.

Just as the repeated sharp increases in oil prices in the seventies had profound negative effects on world economies, there are now expectations that the current fall in price will stimulate an increase in economic growth, a reduction in inflation and in interest rates and possibly a period of more stable exchange rates, all of which could lead to a recovery of international trade and a containment of the growth of unemployment.

A recent OECD report estimates that growth will improve by 1 per cent in 1987 as a result of the price fall and this, together with lower inflation, provides Governments with an opportunity to tackle the persistent growth in unemployment as the major macro-economic problem of our time.

A key question relates to how long the oil price will remain low. Opinions vary substantially on this matter. Those who believe that oil prices will rise to the $18 — $20 region by autumn or year end point to the fall in production in the non-OPEC zone. They also point to a growth of demand, particularly in gasoline consumption in the US as the summer approaches, and they also appeal to seasonal rebuilding of stocks increasing the demand for OPEC oil. These factors, it is argued, could lead to progressive firming of prices.

There is however another school of thought. These experts believe that oil prices have been at an artifically high level over the last ten years. They believe that the precarious cartel that is OPEC has been broken apart by the inexorable economic laws, and that prices of the order of ten to 15 dollars in real terms will be with us to the end of the century.

I do not propose to arbitrate between these two views. A clear lesson of developments in oil and currency markets is how volatile and unpredictable they are. This underlines the logic that informed the energy policies and strategies that have been pursued by the Government over the past three years. Those strategies have designed an energy supply system that is robust in relation to changes in the supply and availability of a particular form of imported energy — oil. It has developed the supply system for gas, electricity, coal and turf with a view to increasing the options for consumers and introducing more competition into energy markets. This system also enables substantial switching to be made from one fuel to another as temporary shortages and supply crises take place and, on the other hand, enables advantage to be taken of over-supply situations and attractive prices in particular fuel markets, without having an excessive dependence on any particular fuel as was the case with oil in the past.

Since the energy crises of 1979-80 our dependence on oil has been reduced from over 70 per cent to under 50 per cent, domestic energy production has more than doubled — from under 20 per cent to over 40 per cent and the efficiency with which we use energy has improved by 17 per cent — that is, we consume less energy now than in 1979 to produce a gross domestic product that has increased by 14 per cent over the years.

This change has been brought about by a sustained capital investment and diversification and conservation programmes. Now that oil prices have fallen to well below the levels ruling in 1979 the question must be addressed as to whether this considerable effort was needed and is still worthwhile. The same question is at present being studied in most other countries and in the EC and the International Energy Agency. Undoubtedly, the drop in prices will, in the short term, reduce the return on investments in energy saving and diversification but this could be expected to be offset by the benefits of lower overall costs and increased economic activity.

The energy market developments have proved a very significant factor in encouraging economic activity in neighbouring developed countries, and in Ireland. When the oil price falls there is major benefit to oil importing countries such as our own and those of our major trading partners. There is a major loss to net oil exporters. It was recently estimated by the OECD that a $15 per barrel price decline would benefit net oil importers, something of the order of £100 billion. In Ireland depending on the length and duration of the price decline, and the speed at which it trickles through to the economy, a benefit of £300 million to £400 million might be anticipated.

These benefits will accrue in a variety of ways but, in particular, through a lower inflation rate and thus a higher value of real disposable income in the hands of consumers. The rate of inflation may be reduced by 1 per cent and 2 per cent below what it would otherwise have been in Ireland due to the fall in oil prices. There will, of course, be a substantial reduction in the cost of oil imports. This may be counterbalanced by a tendency to buy more heavy fuel oil given its attractive price in bulk use at this time. Lower oil prices will, of course, have a negative impact on indigenous energy producers such as Bord na Móna and Bord Gáis Éireann. If these bodies are to compete in the market place their profits will, of necessity, be reduced.

What are the implications of all this on energy policy objectives and strategy? In the final analysis energy policy has two key objectives—first, ensuring availability of supplies of fuel and, second, securing those supplies at the minimum cost consistent with security of supply considerations. All the other policy objectives are really derived from these.

Over the past three years this Government have consistently pursued policies which make us well placed not only to take advantage of the current position in energy markets, but also to adjust more smoothly to any reversal of existing favourable trends in the energy markets. There have been major investments in the energy supply system. Large sums have been invested in diversifying and expending the electricity generating network.

The first stage of Moneypoint coal fired generating station has been commissioned and the second and third stages are reaching the final phase of construction. Bord na Móna's third development programme has been almost completed and further money has been made available to the private bog development grant scheme, the natural gas network has been expanded, new and renewable energy programmes have been pursued and energy conservation programmes have been continued. These policies will continue to be pursued.

The major long term concerns in the present situation of low energy prices are that the effort at energy saving and diversification by consumers and industry would taper off and that exploration and development by oil companies, which has been cut back sharply, would result in fewer discoveries in the higher cost prospects in non-OPEC countries.

As regards oil price levels, it is appropriate that I make mention of the performance of the Whitegate oil refinery. The continued operation of the refinery is periodically the subject of public criticism, sometimes of a rather selective kind. It will interest Deputies, therefore, to know that for all but four months of 1985 the prices of ex-Whitegate products were below those of imported petroleum products and that, taking 1985 as a whole and making allowance for the cost of stockholding at Whitegate — stocks which would in any event have to be held and paid for in this country regardless of whether we operate Whitegate or not — the operation of the refinery made a small but significant positive contribution to the economy. In other words it saved rather than cost us money in 1985. More recently savings to INPC in crude oil purchases have been passed on to the consumer and have contributed very significantly to the recent sizeable reductions in the consumer prices of both petrol and gas oil.

I would now like to review the proposals for oil and gas exploration. I am sure the House will agree with me that 1985 proved to be an important year in the area of hydrocarbon exploration. While actual drilling activity was maintained as in earlier years, the results from two of the 1985 wells were very encouraging. Early in the year, BP drilled a well on Block 48/18 in the Celtic Sea which, on test, flowed gas at a rate of 13.2 million cubic feet of gas per day. Later in the year, Gulf drilled on Block 50/6, also in the Celtic Sea, and testing operations on that well in January of this year produced oil flows of 2,074 barrels of oil per day and gas flows of 1.3 million cubic feet per day.

Technical data arising from both of these discoveries are being examined by my Department, in consultation with the companies involved, in order to establish what further work is required in relation to those discoveries. It is of interest in relation to 1985 that the Britoil well in Block 35/19 in the Porcupine Basin was the deepest well ever drilled in the Irish offshore. Unfortunately, it was dry as were other wells drilled by Arco and ESSO in the Celtic Sea basin.

I believe that 1986 will also make an important contribution to our on-going exploration programme. We expect that up to ten wells will be drilled this year — more than has been the case for a considerable number of years. Already, Hydrocarbons Ireland have completed a well off the coast of Wexford; at present, Charterhouse are drilling in the Kish Bank basin offshore Dublin, while Marathon are working on the first of a number of wells to be drilled in their leased acreage in the Celtic Sea this year. Other companies are also in the final stages of preparation for drilling operations during the year. This continuing interest in the hydrocarbon potential in our offshore is extremely encouraging.

Not surprisingly, wells drilled in the present oil price climate reflect obligations already entered into by the various oil companies, obligations which must be honoured by them, even though some might wish to defer some of their commitments. However, the companies concerned have the offsetting benefit this year of steeply reduced drilling costs — brought about by the fall-off in exploration world wide — and they know that now is an appropriate time to explore, as commercial discoveries this year or next would be coming on stream at a time in which significant rises in price might reasonably be expected.

The recent dramatic fall in oil prices creates difficulties for exploration. In simple terms it means that cash flows in 1986 are less than half of what had earlier been calculated, and a number of oil companies have in consequence announced significant budget cuts. The industry can be expected to become even more selective than hitherto in taking on exploration commitments but an area such as the Celtic Sea — where deposits have been proven to exist and the environment is less harsh than in other areas — should retain its attraction. Any discoveries made there can be produced by using conventional and low-cost technology. Furthermore, the fall in drilling costs to which I have referred above has manifested itself quite dramatically in areas such as the Celtic Sea; wells can now be completed at less than 50 per cent of what they would have cost a year ago. The existing work commitments offshore Ireland, including those arising out of the Third Licensing Round ought to ensure a resonable level of exploration activity offshore Ireland during the next few years.

However, we must now start to look beyond work arising out of existing commitments and if a prolonged period of low oil prices has a continuing adverse effect on the willingness of oil companies to explore I believe that it is in the Irish interest and in the interest of the oil companies and the western world in general, that exploration should continue throughout this period of lower prices.

The prospect of increased long term reliance on OPEC supplies is a problem that all oil consuming countries must view with some considerable apprehension. While a continuing high oil price is of course the best incentive to exploration, other ways must be found to keep up the momentum so that discoveries will be in place to ensure continuity of supplies and avoid an excessive and possibly damaging rebound of prices in the future when existing producing fields begin to reach exhaustion.

In April last year I introduced changes to indicate how reliefs for marginal discoveries would operate. In the light of the effect of current prices on exploration activity, I am considering what further steps can be taken in present circumstances to encourage exploration in the years ahead without unnecessary impairment of the overall national interest.

Bord na Móna had a bad year in 1985 due to the very wet weather. They lost production valued at about £50 million and had to ration supplies of briquettes and sod peat during the winter. Fortunately, their high stocks policy for milled peat enabled them to maintain supplies to the ESB and to manufacture record quantities of briquettes. The shortage of briquettes in winter was due mainly to increased demand in the cold wet summer of 1985.

The board managed to avoid laying-off permanent workers but in doing so had to make a major "act of faith" that the workers would in turn help them to offset the financial consequences of 1985 during 1986 and subsequent years, given suitable weather.

The capital estimate for Bord na Móna for 1986 is £9 million. This is for continuation of the third development programme, which is coming towards its end. I should tell the House that the ESB and Bord na Móna have recently agreed a contract covering prices and quantities of peat supplies for the next three years. This kind of stable relationship is good for both organisations.

The provision at subhead M is for £1.2 million for the private bog development grant scheme under the Turf Development Act, 1981. Up to the end of 1985 a total of £5 million has been approved or spent in this scheme affecting 850 development schemes which are estimated to have produced 2 million tonnes of peat. The scheme was reviewed in detail recently and the results achieved were clearly satisfactory. Employment has been generated in disadvantaged areas and a small industry supplying turf extraction machinery has been established. The additional output created by the scheme has displaced substantial quantities of imported fuel. Consequently, it has been decided to continue the scheme in its present form until 1987.

The Electricity Supply Board's non-voted capital expenditure for 1986 will be of the order of £160 million. This represents a decrease of 25 per cent on the 1985 outturn of £213.6 million and reflects the continuing trend of reduced capital expenditure by the board as the Moneypoint generating station nears completion.

Because of favourable trends in oil prices and interest and exchange rates and because of the savings accruing from increased coal fired generation it was possible to grant reductions in electricity prices of 6.2 per cent on average to industrial consumers and 3.9 per cent on average to commercial consumers from 1 April 1986. The domestic consumer also benefited from these favourable trends with a 5 per cent reduction in electricity bills for all domestic consumers from 1 September 1986. The domestic night rate was reduced by 13 per cent from 1 April 1986. I will, as I have previously indicated, keep the situation under review and can assure the House that any opportunities which may arise for further reductions will be availed of.

The provisions for expenditure on generating capacity in 1986 will be £81 million. The major portion of this expenditure will be on completion of the Moneypoint generating station in County Clare. Approximately £75 million will be spent at this location. The balance of £6 million relates to residual expenditure on the completion of the board's new national control centre. Spending on premises and general equipment is down to £3 million in 1986 from £4.8 million last year and relates mainly to the purchase of computer and other related equipment.

Expenditure by the ESB on transmission and distribution projects will amount to £76 million in 1986. This includes £6 million for the completion of the 400 KV lines from Moneypoint and £14 million for the maintenance and extension of the existing transmission system. Expenditure on distribution projects will account for the remaining £56 million in 1986. This expenditure is required to maintain an acceptable level of service to existing customers and to strengthen the electricity distribution network for the connection of new consumers.

The sum provided in the Vote this year for the western package electrification scheme is £1.43 million. The aim of this scheme is to improve over a ten-year period the viability and competitiveness of farms in the western region through the extension and improvement of electricity supplies.

Eligibility is in accordance with EC Regulation 1820/80. Those who qualify for aid must be principally dependent on agriculture for their income. The State and the EC each contribute 40 per cent of the cost of connection, the remaining 20 per cent being borne by the beneficiaries. To date, 3,046 applications have been approved under the scheme at a total cost of £6,844,485 and it is anticipated that a further 693 farms will benefit under the scheme in 1986. I have recently carried out a review of the scheme and I have put forward for approval by the Commission certain proposals which are aimed at improving and extending it.

These proposals included the extension of the number of new connections, as the maximum number of such connections had been reached. As a result of my direct intervention with the EC Commission, they have now agreed to this proposal in advance of their consideration of the complete review of the scheme.

So far as gas is concerned the major events were those relating to the Dublin Gas utility and the maintenance of supplies to its many thousands of customers. I have already explained in reply to various debates and questions in this House, the reasons which led to the decisions taken by the Government in this matter. I am quite satisfied that I and the Government have properly discharged our responsibilities to all the parties concerned, including the general public. In view of formal threats of legal proceedings which have been received I am somewhat constrained in making further comment in justification of the actions which we felt obliged to take, but I hope that this freedom will not be denied to me for too long.

As Deputies know the remit of the receiver is to place the company on a viable economic footing in anticipation of nationalisation and, until his full report has been received I am unable to give a firm indication as to the future sequence of events. As I indicated in reply to a Private Notice Question recently, it is the intention to ensure payment to all creditors where the claims, whether in respect of work or services carried out are valid. Other measures have also been taken to stabilise the situation and I hope to be able to keep the House informed of significant developments as they unfold.

Moving on now to the position regarding the other existing town gas utilities, I am pleased to state that preparatory work on the gas pipelines to Limerick and Waterford is commencing this month. The work will be completed by late autumn and the pipelines will be fully operational by year-end.

A decision in principle to supply natural gas to Clonmel was taken in July 1984.

The Minister has the wrong year, it should be 1982.

That was just a pre-election stunt. However, some difficulties arose in discussions between BGE and Clonmel Corporation in agreeing certain details of the project and these, together with the recent developments on the world oil market, necessitated a further examination of the project. I would expect, however, that these problems can be ironed out quickly.

The extension of the natural gas network to Kilkenny has been approved formally by the Government. Appropriate arrangements will be concluded by BGE for the early supply of natural gas. In 1985, BGE, at the direction of Government, acquired the shares of Cork Gas Company which is now a fully-owned subsidiary of BGE. A major overhaul and re-vamp of the Cork Gas Company has commenced and will be completed this year, the intention being to protect that company's customers and to bring about a turnaround from pervious years' loss making performances.

Following the EC's decision to provide assistance for a gas development programme in the north-east and Border counties, an analysis of gas supply projects in that area is currently under way. As I have already pointed out, further extension of the network will be dependent on economic viabiity, having regard to the large amounts of capital required to construct the pipelines, to the available markets, the limited life-span of existing resources and the alternative options available to us.

During 1985, Bord Gais Éireann delivered approximately 85,000 million standard cubic feet of natural gas to their customers. This represents the equivalent of 2 million tonnes of oil and reflects a saving of over £300 million on our annual oil import bill. On top of this, BGE surrendered £80 million of their profits for the benefit of the Exchequer.

As I indicated in my 1985 Estimates speech, those who advocate "give-away" policies by BGE pay less than due respect to the considerations which ought to apply in the management of this important, and limited, resource. Government policy is based on the sound principle of maximising the returns to the people as a whole and we cannot be deflected from that policy in present circumstances as any further supplies of natural gas, after the depletion of the Kinsale Head field, be they indigenous or imported, may well be dearer but are very unlikely to be cheaper.

There is an increase in the energy conservation allocation for 1986, £42,000, in comparison with the 1985 outturn. Although achievements made by an energy conservation programme in improving energy efficiency are not easily quantifiable, there can be no doubt that it has helped to stimulate public awareness in this whole area and has caused the adoption of energy efficiency improvements that would not otherwise have been made. Therefore, the money spent on the energy conservation programme is worthwhile and is more than paid back in terms of the benefits to the economy as well as to energy users.

Energy conservation has a number of benefits. It improves the energy supply position by reducing the quantity of energy required to do a particular task; also, energy efficiency is a cost saving for the energy user. On a national basis, energy savings reduce dependence on imported fuels and benefit the balance of payments.

The energy conservation programme is designed to create continuing awareness of the benefits of prudent energy management. The programme consists of a range of advisory and information services for industry and for the public, audit services for industry and for the public sector, and grants for detailed audits and feasibility studies by consultants.

I now turn to the allocation of £151,000 for new and renewable energy sources which will be used to continue the Government's policy of assessing and where appropriate, encouraging the development of our indigenous renewable energy resources as an alternative to imported fuels.

The two main areas for concentration are wind and hydro power. In 1984 the Department entered into a windpower demonstration contract with the EC under which the EC agreed to contribute £158,000 over a two and a half year period. This money is being used to contribute to the costs of monitoring and maintaining five of the Department's windmills and of making any modifications which are considered necessary. Because of a number of problems encountered with both the windmills and the monitoring equipment, the programme has been delayed and the results will not now be known until at least 1987.

In late 1981, the Department held a national small scale hydro demonstration competition. In all, over 80 entries were received and grants totalling £98,800 were made to 13 of the entrants. The performance of three of the installations grant-aided is being monitored and it is hoped to have the results of this monitoring programme by June or July this year.

In October last the Department published a report on the potential of hydro power in Ireland. This survey, which took three years to complete, identified over 3,500 sites which are suitable for development, and information on 568 sites with a potential of 10KW or greater is included in the report.

To highlight the report's findings it was announced that the Department would be drawing up a new demonstration scheme. It is planned to announce final details later this year.

With regard to other new and renewable sources of energy, in particular solar, biomass, geothermal and wave, the Department from time to time give grant assistance to projects undertaken in these areas by private individuals, universities, semi-State bodies etc. It is hoped that by doing this a certain level of expertise can be maintained in this country. It is also the Department's policy to assist where possible, attendance at various conferences both at home and abroad, dealing with all relevant areas of new and renewable sources of energy.

In relation to mining, people are well aware of the events that have taken place. I have to report that Tara Exploration and Development Company Limited, which has a 75 per cent share in Tara Mines Limited, has been acquired by the Finnish company, Outokumpu Oy. The State will retain its 25 per cent shareholding in Tara Mines. I anticipate improved co-operation with the new shareholders in the development of the ore body. Regretfully, the completion of the agreed arrangements for the takeover of Bula Limited by Tara Mines Limited did not come to a satisfactory conclusion. The circumstances surrounding this failure were a matter of grave concern to the Government.

The House will be well aware of the steps taken by the Government in relation to the nuclear industry, in particular in relation to our concern with regard to Sellafield and events which took place in the wake of the Chernobyl accident. At a meeting on 6 June 1986 between the Attorney General's office and the EC Commission's legal service the Commission agreed that they have competence under the Euratom Treaty to take the initiative to set up an inspection force. We are now awaiting Commission initiatives. The Government will be pressing to ensure that these initiatives will be prompt and effective despite the lack of belief by the Opposition.

I am sure Deputy Reynolds will agree to allow me 30 seconds in relation to the Supplementary Estimate. Deputies will be aware that on 5 December 1985 I informed the House that the Government had decided to conclude an agreement with Chevron under which the Whiddy Oil Terminal will come into State ownership, with Chevron paying $44 million to the State in consideration of the release of its obligations to rebuild the damaged jetty.

When do the Government get the money?

Next Tuesday, cash on the nail. That agreement has now been signed and transfer of the relevant assets to the State is imminent. The terminal at Whiddy Island will be handed over to the Irish National Petroleum Corporation, as the State's agent, who will be responsible for care and maintenance of the facility. It is necessary to put the corporation in funds for this purpose since the care and maintenance of the Whiddy facility cannot be funded from the corporation's only current source of revenue, the sale of petroleum products from the Whitegate Refinery at cost recovery prices. Consequently, I propose to move a Supplementary Estimate for £450,000 so that payment can be made to the INPC to cover their care and maintenance remit at Whiddy during 1986. Such payment will cover not only normal care and maintenance operations throughout the remainder of the year but also certain once-off works necessary to make safe the facility subsequent on removal of the remaining quantity of crude oil from the tanks.

I trust this brief outline of the main areas of activity of my Department has adequately illustrated the importance of the functions involved despite the relative smallness of the Vote which is well under £10 million.

I recommend this Estimate to the House, as well as the Supplementary Estimate which I propose to put to the House following on their agreement to the main Estimate.

Deputy Reynolds. The Deputy has 30 minutes.

I want to indicate to the Minister and the House that I accept the Estimate and the Supplementary Estimate for £450,000 so that he can put the Whiddy Oil Terminal under care and maintenance. I do not propose to go into the details of the Whiddy Oil Terminal because other Deputies on both sides of the House want to contribute.

I must compliment the Minister on the fine face he has put on the operation of his Department for the last year. Indeed, it is no different from what he endeavoured to do last year. When one examines at close quarters the way in which various issues have been handled by the Minister and his Department, one could not accept his presentation here this evening. It is an unacceptable way of conducting our business that we have to rush an Estimate through in very short time. That is the way the Government order their business. I know you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle can do nothing about it; neither can I and I am not so sure that the Minister can. I am beginning to wonder if he has half the input into the Government he would like people to believe.

The Minister's handling of Dublin Gas was atrocious and inept. I deplore the lack of information given to this House. When I asked the Minister if he had given guarantees or comfort to the banks to renew the funding of Dublin Gas — and the Minister will remember what he said — within a matter of days he had an instrument laid before the House and in the Dáil Library to the effect that the bankers to Dublin Gas were to be guaranteed approximately £27 million. It is regrettable that that sort of information should be withheld from the House. It was clear to me that the banks would not renew funding in relation to Dublin Gas if they did not receive such guarantee. The Minister gave less than honest answers to me in the House last week, which surprised me because normally he is forthcoming with whatever information is available to him. I put it to the Minister that his handling was not in the best interests of everybody, that he did not carry out his statutory responsibilities under the agreement drawn up.

There was application made to the Minister under a hardship clause in which he became the final arbitrator in any dispute between Dublin Gas and Bord Gáis in regard to price whenever that issue arose. The Minister failed to honour his responsibilities under the agreement and took no action despite the fact that, under its terms, he should have acted within a month. The Minister allowed the matter to ride for another month and then sent it back. I cannot accept that the difficulties of Dublin Gas, known from August 1985, were not acted upon till such time as the Revenue Commissioners came in looking for their money. The matter was sparked off by that incident, the Revenue Commissioners having been kept quiet for a short period. I shall be surprised if we do not see serious legal implications arising from the way in which this matter has been handled — I hope not — but I shall be surprised if there are not some.

I cannot understand the role of the receiver in Dublin Gas. The receiver was put in by Bord Gáis to protect theirs and the taxpayer's money. We had the earlier decision of nationalisation which turned out not to be nationalisation for some two weeks. It finally became nationalisation after many Cabinet meetings and many arguments among Ministers over it. This is more of the misrepresentation of fact to which I have referred. What is the role of the receiver in Dublin Gas? Perhaps the Minister, in summing up this evening, will let me know. A receiver is appointed to do a job, to collect the money for the people who appointed him under their debenture. Then we had the Minister and the Government saying: everybody will be paid. If everybody is to be paid I might ask: what is the role of the receiver? Is he there as a chief executive, seeing that the chief executive resigned, or what is his role since all creditors will be paid? It is a very expensive way of replacing a chief executive if that is his only role and I cannot see any other for him.

If we are to make preparations for nationalisation, if that is the genuine intent of the Government — I accept in good faith what the Minister has said here on numerous occasions — then I might suggest that the appointment of an administrator would be more appropriate. The Minister knows he would have no problem in introducing a short Bill in the House, in the same way as he did in relation to the PMPA Insurance Company, the ICI, appointing an administrator to do the job properly.

After three and a half years I am delighted to hear the Minister say that preparatory work has commenced on the gas spur lines to Limerick and Waterford. I will remind him that in October 1982 a decision in principle was taken to do just that. Yet three and a half years later we are finally getting down to starting the job. One might well ask: why three and a half years later? This Department could have made a significant contribution to the alleviation of our economic problems over the last couple of years which were in the way of getting things started or done in order to reduce unemployment numbers. But because of some ideological paralysis which has afflicted this Government since the resignation of Deputy Cluskey, there has been no movement, or any there has been, has been at a snail's pace. Many important decisions in the energy area have not been taken, have been side-stepped or whatever.

That protracted decision in relation to the extension of the gas spur lines is one I shall never understand. If the Government were short of momey they could have formed a joint venture with private enterprise. A year and a half ago I told the Minister that he was pursuing a programme of nationalisation of the gas industry. I remember his response clearly. It was: would I credit him with that visionary intelligence? Since that time Cork Gas Company has been nationalised. A private sector consortium was involved with Limerick Gas. They were pushed out of the way and Limerick Gas was nationalised. The crucial problems in Dublin Gas were known to the Government last August and their failure to take action on them indicates that they wanted to nationalise Dublin Gas from day one. They have succeeded with the first step, but I hope they are not in Government long enough to see it through to the final stage. I am not convinced that nationalisation is the best way for the people to benefit from our natural resources. A marriage between private sector management and State ownership is a better proposition.

As regards the appointment of a receiver, it was a funny appointment because I would not credit the people who were appointed with the necessary expertise to handle such a major job. However, the Minister makes his own appointments. That is his business. I wait to see if they are a replacement for the chief executive or what.

The takeover of Tara has been completed by Outokumpu Oy. I welcome them into Ireland. They are a very good company. Our State companies have a lot to learn from the way in which such companies are managed in Finland. I am amazed that the Minister did not mention the position in relation to Bula. Will they be taken over by Outokumpu Oy? Have any meetings been held with them in relation to the takeover? When will something be done about it? Is the receiver expected to do an impossible job? He is expected to sell the assets at Bula without having a State mining lease in his possession. The receiver should be in a position to offer anyone contemplating buying the mine a complete package. If the receiver is not in such a position it could deter people from becoming interested in it.

As regards Ballingarry Mines, the replies which I received from the Minister to questions I asked about it clearly indicate that he is not concerned about disputes which might arise in relation to the lease, and so on. The Minister was in a position to issue a new licence to Ballingarry Mines. I should like the Minister to confirm that because a deputation I met last week had a different idea of it. Does the Minister have to wait for an end to the legal actions which have been taken in Canada? Has the Minister's approval been sought or is it mandatory to seek it before any lodgment of a mortgage deed is raised against a State mining lease? If his approval was not sought, is it valid at this stage? Can the position in Ballingarry be sorted out now? Can we have a new State mining lease? What are the problems involved? The workers want to see the mine opened. They are entitled to every assistance from the Minister and his Department.

I did not hear any reference made to interesting finds in the Leinster coalfield. As regards oil and gas exploration, I am delighted that wells are being drilled. The vast majority of these arose out of the second licensing round and not the third one. The third licensing round has been a disaster. Not one new company has come in under this round. This licensing round was advertised last year before anyone knew that the price of oil would fall. The closing date was extended for six months and even at the end of that time there was no new company offering. Surely that is a clear sign that the licensing round failed. Why was that? It is easy to talk when price levels are low and it is easy to make up excuses for having a low level next year. Not long ago the Minister said that two or three wells would be the order of the day for the next year. That does not surprise me. Why did Chevron pull out?

We have pursued a policy which was drawn up in 1975. It may well have been right at that time but it is not right today. The Government should not hold on to the sacred cow of taking up to 50 per cent of any reserves which are worth developing. Such a stipulation does not attract people and was a contributing factor of Gulf Chevron pulling out of here. As I have said before, 50 per cent of nothing is still nothing even after 11 years. If ever there was a time when the economy needed a shot in the arm it is now. I am not in a position to say what the facts are in relation to oil and gas finds off our coast, but I am in a position to say that it is bloody well time that we found out how much is there.

I asked the Minister before if he had examined the possibility of early production systems in the Celtic Sea. I pointed out to him that there were a lot of new technological developments in recent years. I am aware that early production systems created certain problems and caused damage to the reserves in some areas in the North Sea, but surely this is an opportunity to try out the new technology and find out the amount of oil that exists. I am aware of a turnkey operation system which, for a capital investment of $55,000 per day, can extract 20,000 to 30,000 barrels daily. That represents an extraction cost of between $2½ to $3 per barrel, the cheapest that can be obtained anywhere. I do not know if Saudi Arabia can extract oil at a cheaper rate than that. It is worth investigating that system. The country needs a shot in the arm. It is time the Minister realised that the individual who is casting Indian signs on our oil and gas exploration terms should not be allowed to halt the onward march of the nation at a time when we need a contribution to get us out of our difficult economic state and reduce our unemployment. What is the Minister's view on this?

The terms set are for two blocks and they do not have to be passed on to the next two blocks. The oil industry are well aware that the terms, and taxation, are a movable feast. They have been moved in the North Sea and elsewhere and the oil industry expect them to be moved here. However, we must prove that we have oil in commercial quantities. If we have it we can be stronger in our approach, but at the moment we are in a weak position. Ireland is losing badly as a result.

Thankfully, gas has been found by BP but I am not aware of the extent of the discovery. Will any company in its right mind explore for gas here when we have failed to develop the market in the past three and a half years. It is three and a half years since the pipeline arrived in Dublin but we are still involved in the preparatory work to give a spur line to Limerick and Waterford. I note that there are still problems in Clonmel but I am delighted that the gas is to be piped to Kilkenny. Will the Minister explain his decision to extend the gas supply to Kilkenny? Time and again when I suggested that extension I was told that it could not be done. When the Chief Executive of Bord Gáis appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies he said he had analysed Kilkenny and although Smithwick's Brewery was available then he said it was not economic to extend the pipeline to that city. Smithwick's have gone but for some unknown or magical reason it is now economic to extend the pipeline to Kilkenny. I cannot understand that. I have been accused of doing assessments on the backs of match boxes but at least if I carry out an assessment I will know if I am right or wrong; I do not come up with a different result each time. The move may have been political to save Deputy Pattison's seat. I hope Dundalk gets the same treatment later.

The Government bungled the North of Ireland decision by leaving it hanging around for too long. I am not blaming the Minister for that because the present Minister for Finance was responsible. That Minister could do with the money that would be accruing from that now had he pursued that scheme. However, he messed it around for so long that it was thrown out. Will the Minister say if the Government are prepared to put the North-South link on top of the priority list for funding under the US aid package we are expecting? It is the most suitable project for that aid and is one that would give practical demonstration of North-South economic co-operation. That deal failed because of economic circumstances but if the Yanks want to put money into a scheme to make it viable I cannot think of a better project. Will the Minister give a commitment that if such aid arrives — it appears that the extradition problem is tied into it in the US — that project will be put on top of the list?

I am sure Members from the Dundalk region will make their own case for an extension of the pipeline to Dundalk. I cannot understand the delay in taking up the 23 million ECUs in accordance with the regulation made in late 1985. If that money is left there long enough somebody else will take it.

I will not spend much time on Sellafield or the Nuclear Energy Board. I accept in good faith what the Minister has said, that the inspectorate to inspect the safety regulations and the monitoring of Sellafield will be put in place. I have my reservations about that but I am prepared to accept what the Minister has said.

The advice I have been given with regard to this is that under the Euratom Treaty a committee can be set up but it is only empowered to carry out an audit on what happens to all raw material. It does not have any power to insist on safety regulations being put into place. If the Minister says that can be done I will accept it.

With regard to the Nuclear Energy Board I should like to state that I do not think they are competent to advise on the health aspects of radioactive fallout. We will have to appoint experts to advise on health. I am glad the Minister is providing money and staff for the board and that we will be in a better position to monitor another disaster, if it occurs. It is unfortunate that the record of Sellafield, and other nuclear stations only 60 miles from here, is such that we cannot sleep well at night. The Minister should bear in mind the grave concern that is gaining momentum here in regard to health and the environment.

Development of a market for gas is needed if we are to encourage more gas exploration off our coast. It was encouraging to hear of the reserves found initially in the BP well off the south coast but until our market is developed we cannot expect people to be interested in exploring for more gas. The Government should make a decision that if we have an abundance of gas we will export some of it. I accept that it is not a great proposition but if I was involved in exploration I would have to know where I was going to sell a product before I would spend a fortune trying to find it. There is no market at present and if it had been accelerated as I had intended, the position would be different today. If we can get the North of Ireland gas deal back into place it will be one way of expanding the market. However, we will need that scheme when the downturn in relation to gas supplies to Moneypoint takes place.

Will the Minister confirm that there is no question of proceeding with stage 4 of the Moneypoint plan. Some ESB officials are saying that a certain amount of work on stage 4 will take place and I should like to know if the Government have decided to proceed with that stage. Is the Minister aware of a serious problem that has developed in relation to pumps at Moneypoint, whether they were put on the Shannon estuary bed or on the sea bed? I understand that £1 million was spent on that project but the pipes are corroded and £1 million has gone dow the Swanee.

Not the Swanee, the Shannon.

It may be the Atlantic but the Minister is in a position to find out. I wonder if the Minister is aware that some people down there do not have much regard for the way work is proceeding.

I should like to turn to the old chestnut of the contribution the drastic change in oil prices could make to our economy. I welcome any reduction in energy costs but with the benefits that are flowing into the ESB as a result of the fall in oil prices and the value of the dollar, it is clear that the board are doing well. The Minister may argue that the board have a large debt and that is the way to bring it down.

The penalties being put on the economy of the country by the Government's energy policy are unbearable. In the next three to six months there will be evidence of how tight and competitive Irish industry will have to be. Many indigenous industries are suffering severely as a result of the exchange rates vis-à-vis the púnt, sterling and the German Mark. I am very familiar with it and its effects on many sectors of Irish industry. It is no wonder that Irish industrialists are looking for any slight benefits they can get.

With the benefits flowing into Government coffers, the money they are saving in servicing the national debt because of exchange rates and the dollar depreciation and the benefits from the crash in oil prices should suggest to the Government that they should look at the imposition of a £16 a tonne tax on ESB hydrocarbons. In private industry the tax is only 50 per cent of that and the time has come to reduce the ESB rate by half and put them on level pegging.

There has been much criticism of the £25 million rates levy on the ESB. I was the Minister who introduced that at £10 million. Now it has gone to £25 million. I believe the ESB should pay rates: they are a public utility like Dublin Gas and others and they should make their contribution. I may be proved wrong, but I do not believe that £25 million is equitable. It is a tax put on at random by the Department of Finance — it does not represent anything. No matter how we examine it, the ESB's levy is one-seventh of the total commercial rates paid throughout the country. The ESB premises do not represent one-seventh of the rates bill.

What did the Deputy's original £10 million represent?

The Minister can smile away. The ESB at that time were given an opportunity to prove what their position would be to me and to the Department. They were to prove whether £10 million was excessive. I have not been in a position to know what they did since. The amount has gone from £10 million to £25 million. In my view it is too high and, if it is, the ESB should be allowed to prove their case. It is a bone of contention and it is one other imposition added to energy costs.

The Deputy can reduce it in five years.

Five months.

It may be five weeks at the rate the Government are going on. Wait until Joe Bermingham gets at the Minister. He will be calling the tune, not the Minister, any more. The Minister may think he is Tánaiste and leader of his party but perhaps he will find out who is the new leader before long.

The Deputy shoots first and whatever he hits he calls the targets.

We ran out of time recently at Question Time and I had a question down about Bord na Móna. I asked the Tánaiste to look carefully, with deep consideration, at my proposition to integrate Forestry with Bord na Móna. Both bodies have a great deal in common. They both acquire bad land for development. Bord na Móna have a lot of machinery which could do much forestry work at times of the year when Bord na Móna work is low and work in the forests is high. Development of rural areas is common to both bodies. Bord na Móna should be taken out of the area they are in. Without such an amalgamation, afforestation can never be developed properly. Bord na Móna are a good, commercially oriented body who can do the job, and both bodies could give a lead if they became a well organised development corporation.

These Estimate debates are becoming ridiculous. Last week we had the Defence Estimate. The Minister and the Opposition spokesman made speeches and I and the Leader of the Opposition had to divide 22 minutes. We were passing an Estimate for £270 million. We have the same position tonight. A number of Deputies want to get in, but the Minister came in with a 27-page speech and raced through it and did not give anybody an opportunity to contribute. I wish Deputies on the other side would not agree to these reduced times.

The Deputy is lucky to get in at all — I could have taken my hour.

Estimate debates are about how the respective Ministers are running their Departments, whether they are good managing directors and getting the best value possible for the taxpayers' money. These are occasions when the Legislature can ask for accountability from Ministers. Tonight, because we are talking about energy and natural resources we should be given time to deal with the main subjects under discussion. The main feature of this Estimate is its contribution to job creation from exploitation of our natural resources. I would like to bring up many serious questions but I will not be able to do so. Therefore, I will go straight into the problems I am most interested in. They relate to oil and mining exploration, with references to the nuclear situation.

I should like to refer first to the disappointing amount of time given by the Minister to the Tara Bula position, to which Deputy Reynolds referred. The Minister gave it 12 lines in his 27 page speech, more or less wishing it well. Perhaps that is all he could do in the circumstsances.

The continuing non-development of the Bula ore body is a national scandal. It is the richest lead and zinc ore body in Europe and one of the finest in the world. Successive Governments are to blame for this neglect. I referred to this during the debate on the National Development Corporation Bill last November and at Question Times in the past months. It is now clear that the failure to adopt the £100 million bankers trust plan was a mistake.

The Bula company has worked hard for many years to bring the plan to fruition. I referred last November to the 11th hour intervention by the Canadian Tara interest. Their offer to take over by assuming £22 million of the debt was designed to thwart the implementation of the bankers trust project. The intervention by the Canadian Tara interest was obviously not genuine but a ploy. The spectacle of the chairman of Noranda refusing to meet the Taoiseach last autumn was an insult to our soverignty. The public should be told that to date £1.75 billion worth of ore has been exported by Tara but the Exchequer has received only a miserly pittance of £300,000.

The questions I put down but did not get answers to related to this matter. On 4 June I extracted some figures from the Minister. This is the company that now lays claim to the Bula deposits, and I say that if they want it they must pay for it. The directors of Bula are to be applauded for their courage and persistence in standing up to this foreign multinational, despite the taunts of some politicians here, some of whom have blatant vested interests. The executives of Tara boasted that the State would never get a penny from Tara and that they intended to liquidate the Bula directorships. Such taunts have a ring of truth about them and should not be ignored.

The Minister of State, Deputy Collins, castigated unnamed mining interests for subverting the interests of the State in Bula. The lengths that Tara have gone to to block the Bula development are legendary. To quote the Minister, they are not consistent with the conduct of a guest company in Ireland. The Minister saw fit to order an investigation of Tara in 1984 and I believe that the consultants' report which resulted should be laid before the House. If the Minister does not want to proceed now with a separate Bula development, he is duty bound to ensure that any amalgamated arrangement is based on fair and commercial terms.

In this regard I see some hope now that the Finnish group Outokumpu Oy have taken control of Tara. It is known that these people are held in high regard technically in the mining industry and that they have been very bullish about an independent Bula development in the past in which they were prepared to invest substantial funds. With their having control of Tara's mining facilities now, they should have no problem in coming to a realistic accommodation with the Bula people, who are Irish, who have put everything into this country and who have been very badly treated. The Irish taxpayer and the State would have benefited enormously had the Bula operation got off the ground with the form of agreement that was in mind and in the light of the amount of money the State invested in the mine.

The only obstacle to a sensible solution in the past has been the greed of Tara and the pursuit of revenge and personal vendettas that have no place in business, especially where such a valuable natural resource is involved. We are playing around with the people's money. I am sick of this saga and I will not let go until there is some benefit to the taxpayer. However, I am not very confident or optimistic that will happen in view of the record to date.

The whole episode has its origins in the original attempt by Tara to fool an old man in the early seventies. The behaviour of the banks towards the Bula directors has been a disgrace. Foreign banks should realise they are using the money deposits of the Irish people for lending in this country. The money should be loaned for productive enterprise and once loaned it should not be withdrawn precipitately. I can think of no better use for the money of the Irish people than a mining project with jobs, export values, added value and so on. The recent pursuit by the banks of the Bula directors through the courts warrants official scrutiny. As a lawyer and businessman, I cannot see the justice of banks lending to a company for a mining project, then suing the guarantors before planning permission is received, and now apparently threatening these people's homes, while not moving at all against the company that has the primary responsibility. In America that is called going after the chicken feed. It is ruthlessness at its very worst. Such unscrupulous behaviour by foreign banks — sometimes, I fear, in cahoots with the foreign mining interests — and using the money of the Irish people must be stamped out.

I have serious concern about the ore reserve position at Navan. Recently I put down some questions to the Minister on this subject and I am not altogether happy with the replies so far received. I shall be putting down further questions and I ask the Minister to ensure that they are dealt with fully and frankly and without evasion.

I am a Member of Parliament and I am asking serious questions. We are talking about a lot of money. I mentioned a figure of £1.75 billion. Recently I asked the Minister to confirm if the approximate figure of 20 million tonnes of ore reserve is the correct one in respect of the lead and zinc ore body at Navan but I was told the Minister has no official responsibility to the Dáil in relation to that matter. We are talking about a State mining lease. There has been evasion regarding this matter, but I am not saying the Minister is responsible. If I took the figure of 20 million tonnes and worked on the same basis as I did in the other instance, I would get a figure of £2.5 billion. The Bula reserves are estimated at between 20 million to 25 million tonnes; and, taking the figure of £2.5 billion, I would end with the colossal sum of £7.3 billion. We must not forget that, as a Parliament, we have responsibility in the matter. Are the Irish people to be ripped off entirely by all these goings-on? Tara have been true to their word. They said they would never pay a penny and they have not paid a penny. They have looked after their own shareholders. I should like confirmation of the amount of ore and money taken out by Tara.

Incidentally, I should like to congratulate Mr. Conroy on his success to date in his prospecting operations in County Laois. It is early days yet, but it shows that Irish people have a real role to play in the country's development. The Department of Energy should foster initiative in the area of natural resources, be it Bula, Conroy or the Irish oil exploration companies so that we will not be totally reliant on foreign interests in this vital area of our economy.

Many jobs could have been created. After the money was put in place we were within three months of creating 480 jobs at the Bula mine and we had a prospect of getting back the £9 million the State invested. In addition, the Irish investors, who put in £14 million of their own money, would have had the prospect of getting their money back also. It is certain that the country would have benefited and not foreign multinationals who do not give two damns about this country or anyone in it.

I should like to quote from an editorial in the Irish Independent of 11 October 1985 which made the following comments:

Obtaining information about the present situation would strain the combined abilities of the KGB and the CIA: secrecy seems to be the watchword, with the result that the public knows very little about what is happening.

The editorial also stated:

If this were a semi-State organisation much could be said about it. Nevertheless the point must be made that part of our mineral reserves which could be generating an income for the country (and for individuals) lies untouched many years after the land over it was acquired. This is where the real tragedy of Bula lies.

I should like to know that my right to this information will be respected without having to resort to other methods of getting it. In the same way, my anger was not directed at the Minister when I asked questions about the Chernobyl accident. I had not expected that massive resources would be lined up to cope with the kind of accident that had happened for the first time. I accept that matters will improve, that I shall get answers to questions in the future and that we will be better prepared. I accept that the Minister is in a position of not being able to do much about it and that the only advice the Nuclear Energy Board probably could give him if he phones from Tralee in the event of a dreadful tragedy, would be to say to him, "They are dying like flies up here, Minister. Keep your head down and get into your bunker". I hope that in the future we will be better prepared.

The main thrust of my speech tonight has been concentrated on jobs. I hope what I said about mining can be extended to other areas of exploration for the benefit of all the people to whom I know the Minister is committed.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking on this Estimate. In the brief time available to me I should like to raise a few issues with the Minister in the hope that he will reply to them. He mentioned the increase in the money available for the FEOGA western aid electrification scheme. This is very welcome because that scheme has been of great benefit to agriculture. I raised this issue a few times with the Minister, particularly as regards new supplies for new houses in the west. The Minister told me in February that provision for 1,500 connections was made under the new supplies heading. That was the target which had been anticipated by the Department and by the EC Commission. He said he would be looking for an extension from the Commission, which I understood he got. I also raised the difficulty of second family dwellings. Since 1973 these dwellings have not been included under the scheme for subsidised electricity connections. I also raised the difficulty relating to the farmer whose sole income is from the farm but who is also in receipt of income assistance or some other social welfare benefit. Perhaps the Minister would give an indication whether there will be more flexibility on the part of the Commission in those two areas. Now that the scheme has been extended, perhaps the Minister could tell us how many more applicants will be allowed into the western electrification scheme. My understanding is that the limit of 1,500 applications had been exceeded and that a number of applications had been approved which, until the Minister made his announcement, would not have been eligible for this subsidy. I hope from what the Minister said tonight and from his reply on 29 May that these people will be able to benefit from this extension.

It is very important that the Minister should tell us how many more people will be allowed this subsidy because people in rural Ireland get massive quotations for their capital contributions for electricity connections. I have written to the Minister about a number of my constituents who got quotations from the ESB for approximately £1,000 for electricity connections. In recent weeks we have been talking in this House about the reduction in electricity prices but we sometimes forget about the people who have to pay to have electricity installed. This is a problem in many rural and isolated areas.

The Minister said electricity prices for domestic consumers would be reduced by 5 per cent from September, but I am disappointed that with falling oil prices these prices have not already been reduced. I hope the Minister will not rule out the possibility of an early reduction in electricity prices for the domestic consumer.

In a motion debated recently we highlighted the case of the price of electricity for industry. The fact that there will be a reduction in the price of electricity is welcome but we are still very much out of line with our competitors in Europe and this is having an effect on competition and trade. The recent figures given by the CII show that our prices are about 18 per cent higher than in the rest of Europe. For the more intensive firms this differential could be as high as 40 per cent. That is a very heavy load for a company to bear, especially a company which is either trying to provide steady employment or to create extra jobs. Because of high electricity prices we are losing jobs. The Minister will have to reduce electricity prices to industry further. We do not want a repeat of what happened two years ago when firms told us the cost of a year's electricity was as high as the annual wage bill. The ESB have raised the question of the Government levy and the tax on fuel oil. I hope the Minister will reply to the points which have been made about these impositions because we will continue to have this gap between Irish and European electricity prices as long as these impositions are in existence.

I want to raise the question of private bog development. In the Estimate we see a reduction of 20 per cent on the 1985 figure. That is very disappointing especially at a time when stocks of fuel are low nationally. Last year we had atrocious weather and very low supplies of turf were available. We should be in the process of producing more natural resources through the use of our bogs, through the private development scheme, and through Bord na Móna production. I had hoped more money would be made available in the Estimate for private bog development and that Bord na Móna would increase their harvesting both of milled peat production and peat briquettes.

Last year small farmers lost out because of the weather but many small private turf producers also lost out. I understand a submission has been made to the Department about a rescue package for these producers. They have given great employment in their areas and have invested in machinery which is not allowed grant assistance — swamp dozers and swamp diggers which are very useful in preparing bogs to turf extraction. The Minister might give some indication whether this type of machinery will be allowed for grant assistance.

It is very disappointing to see in the last report issued by Bord na Móna that the Derryfadda/Ballyforan peat briquette factory has to make an exceptional interest payment of £4.5 million. When one sees such a high figure for interest repayments on a project which has only reached the stage where the site is cleared and lighting standards have been provided, I think it is a very sad indictment of this Government. The annual report mentions that expenditure on the project included capitalised interest of £9 million, and amounted to £29 million. That is the type of expenditure we are talking about but we have nothing to show for it. Yet Bord na Móna are making interest repayments of £4.5 million.

I am not blaming the Minister for the fact that this project was reviewed on a number of occasions. "Reviewed" means "postponed", unfortunately. The present Minister for Finance reviewed this project on the first occasion in 1983. Since then it has been reviewed by the Government. We are told this is an ongoing review. What exactly is an ongoing review? Recently we had a meeting of Galway and Roscommon County Councils with five officials from Bord na Móna to try to get information about this project and they said the review had been completed last April.

I hope the Minister can give some indication of what the Government will do now that the review has been completed by Bord na Móna. I am disappointed that in this area of my constituency very close to where I live 100 people have been laid off at Derryfadda. To my mind this prejudices the whole review. We saw 200,000 tonnes of milled peat transported over very bad roads to the ESB stations at Shannonbridge and Blackwater. The whole idea of Bord na Móna developing there and of farmers giving away their bogs for as little as £25 an acre in the expectation of jobs has come to nought because of what has happened since 1983 when this project was reviewed. I ask the Minister how any one can justify £4.5 million being paid in interest repayments for a project which has been suspended since 1983 when the Government gave an indication to the House of their intentions on this project.

I commend what has been mentioned in the Estimate concerning the development of alternative energy and particularly the question of hydro electricity. If we were to develop our hydro electric sites we could effect considerable savings. It is important that we continue to support hydro power. The Minister in his reply to a question I raised on 29 May told me that the potential for saving on imported fuels could be up to 50,000 tonnes if all the sites were developed. I understand that EC support is available for what we call water power, hydro power. There is a great market not only in this country but as far away as California for turbines. That area could be promoted further.

I am very disappointed at the Minister's reference to the nuclear power question. He talked about his concern. I have no doubt about his concern, but the Government's concern is questionable. They are too complacent on the whole question of nuclear power. I refer not only to the motion on which we divided in the House but also to the fact that we have not yet confronted the British Government on the question of the closure of Sellafield. I welcome any initiative taken at European or international level on this but it is important that this question be taken up directly with the British Government because we know what arose from the fallout at Chernobyl.

I thank the Minister for some of the good news in the Estimate, particularly the increase in FEOGA grants, but I am disappointed that some questions which he had not time to raise were not raised adequately in the House.

Dublin North-West): I call Deputy Brendan Griffin. Deputy, you have 11 minutes.

I too am pleased to be given an opportunity to speak on this Estimate but, like other Members, I deplore and am frustrated at the shortness of time. Deputy Noel Treacy has asked me to give him five minutes of my time. I thought I would have 15 minutes and I agreed readily to give him five minutes of my 15 minutes so that constrains me further. It is grossly unfair even to the Minister to ask him to deal with his Estimate in such a brief time. He would benefit from the views expressed by various Members of this House especially on issues which affect their constituencies. This is a very important Estimate because many of the points and issues raised here, such as Sellafield, Chernobyl, Bula Mines, natural gas, Moneypoint and solid fuels, are topical.

In the short time available to me I would like to refer to two matters the Minister mentioned in his Estimate speech which concern my constituency. The first is Ballingarry Mines. Unfortunately we are only too well aware of the chequered history of the very fine anthracite mines in Ballingarry in the north eastern portion of my constitutency. Indeed, it would be remiss of me if I did not avail of this opportunity to convey to the Minister and to this House the utter frustration experienced by the miners in that area at the mine having closed down for nigh on two years. We are reliably informed that approximately 3.7 million tonnes of top class anthracite are available there for mining, worth in the region of £200 million to £300 million. In 1967, 360 miners were employed there and shortly before the closure the employment figure was from 120 to 150. We have there a fully qualified workforce — miners by family tradition. Their fathers and grandfathers were miners. With the closure of the mines they have no other form of employment in the immediate vicinity.

We have seen the programme "Today Tonight" about the abuse of public funds. Indeed, the abuse of IDA and Fóir Teoranta funds is only the tip of the iceberg. I thank the Minister and his Minister of State, Deputy Eddie Collins, for meeting deputations on two or three occasions from Ballingarry Mines and showing their concern. Unfortunately, the closure of the mines is totally outside the Minister's compass but I urge him to use his powers to see that these mines are re-opened immediately.

One matter that emerged from the deputations I have referred to is the absolute necessity for new legislation in regard to mining. There are grey areas in this instance. The legal advisers and the receiver were unable to answer questions in regard to the lease. A person claims to be the mortgagee in possession of the lease and apparently that has prevented the re-opening of these mines. I urge the Minister to consider the introduction of new leglislation in respect of mines so that what has happened in this instance can never be repeated in Ballingarry or any other coalfield or anthracite field in Ireland.

There was a very cursory reference to Clonmel. I am pleased that a decision was taken in principle to provide natural gas to Clonmel. However, that decision was taken virtually two years ago and there has been no further development in that area. Again I urge the Minister to get Clonmel Corporation and Bord Gáis Éireann to sit around a table to thrash out the remaining few obstacles in the way of giving a natural gas supply to both domestic users and industrial developments in Clonmel and its hinterland who are willing and able to use this facility.

Those are the two points I wish to mention and I hope the Minister will give them attention. I conclude now to give Deputy Noel Treacy five minutes of my time.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Noel Treacy. He has five minutes.

I am sincerely grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution on this very important Estimate. I cannot understand why it could not be taken on a Friday for a full day in order to allow Deputies an opportunity to debate it.

This is a most important Estimate and the Minister is responsible for one of the most important Departments. We are not passing on full value for money to the consumer and not taking into account the fuel price reductions. Indeed, the Minister said that such reductions had been very significant last year throughout the world, which should ensure that ESB prices would be reduced to manufacturers and consumers as soon as possible because manufacturing costs here put us at a disadvantage vis-à-vis foreign competitors. The Minister must ensure that we are able to compete in the marketplace. The cost of energy is abnormally high and reductions should be passed on on a regular, significant basis.

The sum of £421,000 for western aid electrification is very small and I am very disappointed with the criteria used by the Department of Energy in assessing applications. The ESB are directing people in the west to get an ESB connection while their applications are pending and, although they are forced to sign a document, the Department of Energy will not make a decision on a pending application. Such people may live in disadvantaged areas and may have to get a connection from their parents' house next door and there are a number of people who cannot afford to pay the abnormally high prices charged in rural areas for connection. I ask the Minister to direct his Department to adopt a more sympathetic approach in this regard.

Deputy Kitt and I are very disappointed at the failure of the Government, the Department of Energy and the Minister to direct Bord na Móna to go ahead with building Ballyforan briquette factory. There has been constant procrastination in this regard over the past three and a half years and were it not for the pressure applied from the Opposition, especially from our spokesman, Deputy Reynolds, Deputy Kitt and me, we would not know where we stand. At least we now know there is no commitment from the so called socialist wing of the Government to direct the Department to help to create jobs in the west which would enable us to produce the products so badly needed for the creation of energy. Farmers in east and mid-Galway and south Roscommon who have given away their bogs for very small money to Bord na Móna on a basic guarantee that they would be put into production have not had such promises honoured.

I ask the Minister, in the interests of the west, to direct the Ballyforan factory to go ahead because £7.5 million has already been expended there. Bord na Móna cannot have it both ways. They cannot continue to acquire large tracts of bog for small money, hold on to them and so prevent other people from going ahead with development of sod peat or other energy products. They are rejecting grant applications for peat production and other bog development and will not develop what they have on hands.

I wish to refer particularly to Attymon bog where there is an obvious need to produce sod peat. It had a quota of 26,000 tonnes for 1986. It produced 34,000 tonnes in 1985 but, due to the inclement weather, there is no hope of producing that amount this year. The Minister should demand special auxiliary sod peat production from Bord na Móna by way of the sausage machine which would be allowed to develop alongside the Lilliput machinery which exists in the bog at present. He should demand this immediately and not wait until 1987 or longer to do so.

Deputies have expressed regret in regard to the time allotted to this debate, I presume by agreement between the Whips representing the major parties. I agree with the sentiments expressed and I would be willing, if more time were available, to discuss this important Estimate. My personal conviction is that we will not see a more satisfactory system in force until a general review and reform takes place in this institution and in the political system. I assume we will have to wait a certain time before that takes place. I would welcome a review of political and public institutions which would allow more time for the consideration of Estimates, teasing out the issues involved under each individual subhead and a thorough review of Government policy to which Opposition Deputies and, indeed, Government backbenchers are entitled. We will have to shift the balance of the responsibilities on each Deputy and on Ministers from constituency work to more concentration on legislation and investigation of Estimates. Deputy Reynolds, most of whose allegations I rebut and reject——

I did not expect to hear anything else.

The Deputy is very predictable. I am somewhat at a loss in relation to an inference that an order was placed before the House in relation to giving a letter of comfort to the banks as far as Dublin Gas are concerned. The only order of which I am aware was one relating to ensuring that the provisions of the Companies Acts relating to the receivership would be brought into force. That was the order laid before the House. There was no question of any other order or guarantee in that regard being laid before the House. I answered the Deputy quite clearly and there was neither prevarication nor any attempt to mislead him in the last couple of months in relation to the directions given.

There is no guarantee to the banks?

The Deputy raised the issue of an order being placed before the houses of the Oireachtas. The order in question had nothing to do with guarantees or letters of comfort——

That is not the way it reads.

The receiver was appointed by BGE, not by the Government, and the objective, which is being carried out, is to maintain the business as a going concern and to ensure that supplies of gas are maintained without interruption to the many consumers of the company and to put the company on a viable footing. Deputy Reynolds seems to maintain that if he were in office he would have found other ways of doing it, but we seem to agree on the principle in relation to ensuring that Dublin Gas Company are made a viable company.

I also reject the Deputy's insinuation that I did not carry out my contractual obligations under this agreement. I carried out all the contractual obligations placed upon me under the agreement and also my statutory obligations as Minister for Energy. Over the past few weeks I have answered many Parliamentary and Private Notice Questions on this subject and, because of the threat of legal actions pending, one must be constrained in replies.

Deputy Reynolds and Deputy Skelly mentioned Tara Mines. There seems to be a certain degree of insinuation on all sides of the House in relation to vested interests of parties or Deputies in this episode. I stated categorically in this House in the past that on becoming Minister for Energy I approached the whole mining question with an open mind. My interest then and now is to ensure that we get the maximum benefit for the people from the natural resources which exist onshore or offshore.

That is the overriding principle on which I approached any negotiations which took place in relation to the mining question and I felt I was not holding a brief for any party other than for the taxpayer generally in the discussions that took place. Outokumpu Oy, the Finnish mining company, have acquired 75 per cent of the shares and are presently assessing the total Irish mining position. This company have a very successful track record with a strong possibility of playing a very successful role in our economy.

In regard to Bula, the receiver is about to invite bids for the ore body. There is no doubt but that Outokumpu Oy are interested. But I assume they will study carefully the documentation being made available by the receiver, which is available to all interested parties. Whether or not they will be successful if they make a bid remains to be seen.

Deputy Reynolds asked if the receiver selling the Bula ore body is doing so without a State mining lease. There is no question of such a lease as the minerals in question are privately owned.

The question of Ballingarry Mines has been raised by both Deputy Reynolds and Deputy Griffin. Both Deputies are aware of my own concern in this matter. I am aware that the receiver is publishing, on 16 June, notices inviting offers for the Ballingarry Mines. There are legal questions which have to be resolved and these can only be resolved in the medium term by the receiver. Deputies are aware that where there are legal uncertainties the matters have to be resolved and, as doctors differ, so also do lawyers.

And so do the Minister and the Minister of State.

Dublin North-West): Please let the Minister continue.

These matters have to be resolved and I will make every effort to assist in bringing the Ballingarry Mines back into production.

This fellow is telling us a different story tonight.

Deputy Reynolds asked if it would be possible to go ahead with the gas pipeline to Northern Ireland. I said in this House last October that the offer to Northern Irealnd of supplies is still on the table. It is obviously something that will be considered in the context of any US aid which is forthcoming under the Anglo-Irish Agreement. But we have to accept that the ball remains firmly in the court of the British Government.

Deputy Reynolds queried the economics of the Kilkenny project and the decision-making process which was engaged in.

No, you did.

An examination of that project took place some time ago and on the basis of that examination I felt that to carry out my duties as Minister responsible in a responsible manner, I could not allow that project to go ahead, given the capital costs that were envisaged at that time. Subsequent to that a firm of international consultants were engaged to review that project and they have succeeded in drawing up a project which has substantially reduced the capital cost of the project and a combination of the reduction in the capital costs plus an anticipation of good market penetration in that area of the distribution of natural gas now make that project for more viable than the one which I rejected and which could not have been recommended to this House two years ago.

So much for the Bord Gáis consultants.

There is the question of the ESB rates, an old——

——chestnut which is, to say the least, a complex question. It is easy to say the ESB should not be paying over £20 million in rates and that £10 million is nearer the figure that was settled upon some years ago. The valuation officers in the Department of the Environment are looking at a realistic valuation. I am not admitting to this House, in case anybody thinks so, that the present figure is unrealistic, but I think it is worth while to get a realistic assessment of the rateable valuation of the ESB properties. All Deputies are aware that if £24 million is taken out of one Estimate it will have to be looked for elsewhere.

Do not keep it all for the next budget. Give us a bit before it.

Acting Chairman

Please let the Minister continue.

You have seen nothing yet.

I know that. I will wait until next January.

As long as the Deputy is waiting, it is all right. In regard to the corroded pumps at Moneypoint it is said that there is seldom smoke without a fire. But I am not aware of the detail which the Deputy is referring to. However, I know the Deputy, being a very public minded Deputy, would pass on information if he thought it was in my best interest or in the best interests of the State and I would welcome that information if the Deputy has specific information.

I will do that tomorrow.

I will be in the office at 7 a.m. In relation to the Bord na Móna and the forestry question, I replied to a question in the House.

Two lines, that was not a reply.

Acting Chairman

The Minister to continue without interruptions.

Bord na Móna made a submission to me which I am examining. I certainly would subscribe to the basic tenet of what the Deputy was saying because there is obviously a fair degree of complement between the activities of Bord na Móna and the forestry activity. The Forestry Review Group have had a submission from Bord na Móna. The recommendation does not include a role for Bord na Móna but I do not see that as the last word. I am having the matter examined and I believe we will be able to make some progress in that area.

Do not listen to those forestry fellows. Take it under your own wing.

If I were to do things like that, the Deputy would accuse me of nationalising everything.

On the question of oil exploration Deputy Reynolds inquired about technology and early production systems. There are no production proposals before the Department. No company engaged off our coast has come to the Department to discuss possible production and development proposals.

I accept that.

When that happens I can assure the Deputy that I will take whatever appropriate action is in the best interests of this State, if the Deputy needs reminding of that.

Joe Bermingham will not let you now. It was bad enough to have Frank Cluskey stopping you.

A comprehensive study of early production systems for marginal fields has been undertaken and I expect that to be published in the near future. I am aware of the dangers of early production systems, but we have to take in all the factors involved and then make a decision on the best evidence available to us whether the early production systems would be the appropriate systems. The Deputy can be assured that the correct decision will be made taking into the account the various risks involved and the overall interests of the State.

Let me clarify something for Deputy Reynolds in regard to the nuclear situation because there seems to be still some doubt. I have said to the House that what the Irish Government have been seeking from the European Commission at a number of meetings which have taken place is the establishment of a community, health and safety inspection force and this force would be able to determine the safety of nuclear installations within the Community.

In the course of our discussions in this House in the last number of months Deputy Reynolds in particular, and I believe his Leader also, appeared to raise a doubt as to whether the Commission had competence to appoint such a force. I want to repeat and make very clear to the Deputies, in case it is said that I am claiming something has been established which we have not actually achieved, that the Commission's legal service agreed on a meeting on 6 June last that they had competence under the Euratom Treaty to take the initiative to set up such an inspection force. I believe that to be a major step forward with regard to what the Government are seeking and we intend to press forward with that objective in the best interests not only of the Irish people but of the peoples of the European countries to ensure that such a health and safety commission is established.

There are a number of questions which, unfortunately, I have not time to deal with. I thank Deputies for their co-operation. We have been very limited on time in this Estimate but I can assure Deputies that if they want to discuss the questions which they raised with me over the coming few days I shall certainly be available and readily willing to assist, either in regard to their own constituency areas or in the overall national interest. I thank Deputies for their co-operation and I recommend my Estimate to the House.

Vote put and agreed to.
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