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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 27 Jun 1986

Vol. 368 No. 7

Estimates, 1986. - Vote 43: Communications (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £114,600,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Communications and of certain other services administered by that Office, for a cost alleviation payment and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.

Since this House last approved annual Estimates for my Department, there have been significant developments on many fronts in the communications areas. Most of these have been extensively and constructively debated by the House. I do not feel it is desirable or necessary to cover such ground in detail again. However, given the importance of the communications sectors and the State bodies within these for the general competitiveness and employment prospects of the economy, it is important that Members of the House be given an opportunity to debate and contribute to general policy formulation in this area.

During my three and a half years in office, I have striven with, I think, a fair degree of success to provide a regulatory framework for the communications sectors which will ensure that not only will they be the most efficient in the domestic economy, but their performance will also compare favourably with corresponding sectors in our main trading partners. I am also determined that the State bodies for which I have direct responsibility will be efficient and profitable. These are the general parameters within which my Department have been operating over the past few years and will continue to do so over the coming one.

Expenditure on transport accounts for about 15 per cent of GNP. Demand in this sector is basically a derived demand, depending on developments in other sectors. In this regard, the outlook for it is the most encouraging for many years. Thanks mainly to the stimulus given to the industrialised world by the fall in oil prices, economic growth in the OECD area will be considerably higher both in 1986 and 1987 than any of us, or indeed most reputable international economists, had forecast at the beginning of this year. More importantly, the composition of this growth is radically different from what has been experienced in recent years. Domestic demand and in particular personal consumer expenditure will be the main driving force in economic growth in our main trading partners. This development presents us as a trading nation with a unique opportunity to achieve the substantial increases in output on which employment prospects for our growing labour force will depend. We can achieve this provided our competitiveness is at least maintained, if not improved, and we have sufficient flexibility in all markets to take advantage of increased foreign demand and other changes in our main markets. In this regard, it is imperative that we recognise that it is movements in relative competitiveness which primarily determine market shares. We must remember that our competitors have also had the benefit of the fall in oil prices and their input costs have also been reduced as a result. This is being reflected in lower output costs for the goods and services they produce and with which we must compete. Unless we can match them in this regard, we will inevitably suffer loss of market share with consequential adverse effects for employment.

One very important determinant of the competitiveness of our trading sector is the cost of finance. The CII in their recent newsletter emphasised the need for a substantial reduction in domestic interest rates. I strongly share their views on this topic. Interest rates in early 1986 were at an exceptionally high level here due in large part to uncertainty about exchange rate movements and in particular fears about the constituents of the impending EMS realignment which led to a large increase in speculative flows. The Government took a very positive and unambiguous stance in the realignment, conscious of the fact that a certain readjustment process would be necessary for certain industries. We have helped and will continue to help them achieve this. Now that our intention to pursue a strong exchange rate policy is clear to the financial markets, we expect that this be reflected in a substantial reduction in interest rates as soon as possible. Apart from interest rates there are other favourable effects from a stable exchange rate policy. Inflation should be much lower, which is good news for those on fixed incomes. The escalation in debt service costs due to exchange rate movements which have been a major factor in the imbalances in the public finances will be halted and reversed. However, by far the most important benefit is the establishment of an environment of certainty and confidence in which our trading sectors can plan and flourish.

However, a strong exchange rate policy also necessitates discipline in other areas of economic policy, a fact which I regret to say is not adequately appreciated and acted upon by the social partners. As a nation, we must accept that fiscal, monetary and incomes policies must be compatible with the exchange rate policy we pursue. Another small country in the Community, Denmark, has shown us the substantial and beneficial effects — particularly for employment — which can be gained from a strong exchange rate policy supplemented by appropriate action in other areas.

Perhaps the most important area where an adjustment is needed is incomes. I have already referred to the benefits of lower inflation. The minimum we can expect is a corresponding reduction in income demands to reflect this.

Unless we do so, not only will we destroy existing jobs but we will also make it difficult, if not impossible, for new entrants to the labour market to obtain gainful employment. Some of our trading sectors have other adjustment problems caused by structural problems, shifts in demand patterns, product obsolescence etc., which may require State help to overcome. However, any progress they make in this regard will be to no avail if their competitive position is undermined by excessive income increases.

While I do not have overall responsibility for fiscal policy, I can assure the House that any expenditure for which my Department are responsible will be economically justifiable and desirable. I can also assure the House that the regulatory framework for the sectors for which I have specific responsibility will be fully compatible with the overall national effort to improve or at least maintain our competitive position.

My commitment in regard to CIE has been clearly demonstrated by the provisions of the Transport (Re-organisation of Córas Iompair Éireann) Bill, 1986, which was introduced into Seanad Éireann and passed all stages there on 17 June. The provisions of this Bill will introduce a greater transparency into all the operations of CIE and will help them to provide the range and quality of services which we have requested of them at the minimum possible cost. Equally important, from my viewpoint, it will enable the workforce in CIE to identify much more readily with the service they are providing and the performance of the company providing it. The workforce in CIE has been much maligned over the past few years. In a small few cases this has been justified but the general body of workers in CIE have provided this country with a service of which they and I am proud. I wish to place on record my acknowledgment of this fact.

Because of this and my personal commitment to maintaining and raising morale in the company I accepted and included in the Bill a number of amendments to reassure all that the Bill was not about closing down CIE nor designed to achieve stunning numbers of redundancies. The Bill contains detailed provisions for the maintenance and protection of conditions of employment of workers transferred to the subsidiary companies. It also provides that, in the unlikely event of any of the companies being wound up, the functions of the companies shall be taken over by the board and the board shall accept into their employment without interruption of service all officers and servants transferred to the company on vesting day.

Against that background, I was rather taken aback by the scare-mongering tactics of the President of the National Association of Transport Employees, who is reported to have stated that almost 7,000 jobs could go and that the national railway system could be lost unless the Government changed their policy on the proposed re-organisation of CIE. Irresponsible comments of this nature make me wonder who is trying to put CIE at risk with attacks on the future of the organisation and their equipment. The individual CIE workers cannot be very happy, and what must the passengers think on whose support the CIE services are dependent?

I would like to assure both in a number of ways. While the improvement in the CIE finances over the past few years was a laudable achievement, it was nevertheless essential that the escalating losses of the seventies and early eighties be halted. There is no doubt that the Exchequer could not have afforded to support CIE if the losses had continued to increase at the same rate. The proposed re-organisation together with the package of financial measures introduced in 1983 were designed, not, as may have been suggested, to give rise to large scale redundancies in CIE, but on the contrary to ensure the future of CIE and their services. Make no mistake about it, if these steps had not been taken, the future for the CIE workforce would have been a bleak one. We just could not have afforded to continue to suport CIE losses if they had continued to escalate out of control. The new structures for CIE are designed to give everyone in CIE an opportunity to put new life into the organisation and to ensure its long term future.

The realities of life as regards equipment are that since 1983 a building programme of new mainline coaches has been in progress at Inchicore with many of these coaches now in service, the DART system, at a capital cost of £113 million was introduced in 1984, the whole rural bus fleets have been improved and earlier this year CIE acquired a new touring and supabus fleet. There is nothing unusual about railway locomotives running for a ten year period as locomotives have a very long lifespan. By the end of 1987 CIE will have spent about £29 million on the present signalling and communications programme. All of these are the lifelines of CIE activity and they give the lie to derogatory remarks or the raising of doubts about the quality of CIE transport equipment and safety issues.

Apart from the approval of transport hardware for CIE, it is relevant to the future of CIE that the Government introduced a special subvention formula which also provides for payment of the Exchequer support above the line, involving a sum of well in excess of £300 million over the period 1984-86. In addition, commencing in 1985 CIE are being paid £3 million annually for each of ten years in order to reduce the board's borrowings. Indeed, we also took on the interest charges on the DART. All of these measures were taken in the best interest of CIE and their workforce. They have been successful and the re-organisation of CIE is aimed at breathing further new life into the organisation. I am convinced that the changes are necessary and that the CIE employees will co-operate to show their worth. I cannot but conclude that the motives of critics of necessary change are difficult to understand.

The Estimates before the House provide a total of £300,000 to meet the running costs of the Dublin Transport Authority in 1986. The Bill to establish the Authority has recently been enacted. I am now preparing to establish the Authority so that it can get down to its main task without delay, that is, to ensure that existing transport resources in the Dublin area are organised and utilised in a way which will enable people and commercial traffic to move freely, quickly and as cheaply as possible.

One of the immediate tasks of the Authority will be to take over responsibility for the traffic management strategy which the non-statutory Dublin Transportation Task Force has been pursuing for a number of years. Subhead R of the Vote provides £395,000 for the necessary works in 1986, of which approximately £50,000 will be spent on bringing the remaining 60 or so traffic signals in Dublin Corporation's Urban Traffic Control area under computer control.

The Task Force is probably best known for its work on the introduction of bus lanes, of which there are now more than 14 kilometres in Dublin. While the scope for further bus lanes is constantly under review, the focus in devising new bus priority measures has switched to the selective bus detection system, which uses an infra-red link between buses and roadsides units to give priority at signalised suburban junctions to buses which are behind schedule. The pilot scheme which has been installed at a number of junctions in the southern suburbs at a cost of almost £400,000 will be operational shortly. This will be monitored and the benefits assessed before any decision is taken regarding a wider deployment of the system.

The Road Transport Act, 1986, has recently been enacted. This again is another initiative which my Department have taken to enable a more cost effective service to be provided for our trading sectors. In this regard, it has been welcomed by a wide cross section of our community. I will carefully monitor the effects of this Act to ensure that the competitive benefits which I intend will flow from it will actually materialise.

There has been some criticism concerning the enforcement of legislation relating to road transport. It has been alleged that in the past the ad hoc application of the regulations has caused great difficulties for the provides and users of road freight transport services. I can assure the House that the enforcement of all aspects of road transport legislation, including the limits on weights and social regulations which must be implemented universally and be subject to common criteria throughout the country, will, in future, be enforced rigorously.

A central theme of my speech to the House has been the need for a competitive transport sector relative to that in our main trading partners. However, competitiveness is not much use if our operators are denied access to markets in which they can gain and hold a share.

The major portion of international road freight haulage is undertaken on the basis of bilateral agreements. Such agreements are already in operation between Ireland and 12 other countries, namely, France, Belgium, the Federal Republic of Germany, the United Kingdom, Denmark, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Greece, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Agreements with Spain, Portugal and Czechoslovakia are at an advanced stage of negotiations and negotiations are also proceeding with Yugoslavia.

These agreements benefit Irish hauliers in two ways. First, Irish hauliers wishing to operate to from, or in transit across these countries may obtain the permits, where required, from my Department rather than from the transport authorities of these countries. Secondly, the agreements provide exemption for Irish hauliers from certain taxes which would otherwise be payable by them while their vehicles are in the country concerned.

In addition to bilateral permits, Ireland has quotas of multilateral authorisations under the EEC Community Quota Scheme and a scheme operated under the auspices of the European Conference of Ministers of Transport.

In the context of the European Communities, I would like to mention a significant decision of the Council of Transport Ministers in November, 1985, when there was agreement in principle on the creation of a transport market free from quantitative restrictions by 1992 at the latest. It is hoped that this will lead to substantial increases in the EC Community quota of multilateral authorisations for road haulage over the years between now and 1992.

I have succeeded in getting a 40 per cent increase in our allocation of authorisations for 1986, from 147 to 204, but I can assure the House that I have been pressing and will continue to press for much higher increases than this. I have no doubt about the capacity of the Irish haulage industry to take on and beat the best operators already in the Community market.

For an island nation it is essential that we provide regular, efficient and competitive access transport. Shipping is paramount in this regard. It is generally accepted that the quantity, quality and cost of shipping services for trade are relatively good by international standards.

Policy in relation to passenger services has been the subject of much debate in this House recently in the context of the British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) (Amendment) Bill, 1986. The House was furnished with full details concerning the Government's £38 million rescue package for B & I and various questions raised by Deputies were dealt with. I do not consider it necessary to dwell any more on B & I at this stage except to acknowledge the resolute manner in which the board and management of B & I have acted. In this context also the company's workforce must be commended for their acceptance of the proposals which include the type of flexibility in work practices which I would like to see implemented in other sectors. What is needed now and in the years to come is a sustained commitment from the workforce and management alike to work together towards the common goal of creating a vibrant, efficient and commercially viable enterprise.

There has been some criticism recently concerning the regulatory framework for passenger services between Ireland and the UK. In this regard, I would like to point out that my Department have a dual objective in so far as transport services are concerned. First, they have a responsibility for the commercial and financial viability of State bodies under their control. Secondly, and as I have repeated several times throughout this debate, we have a duty to provide the necessary regulatory framework for the most efficient operation of the sectors of the economy for which we have responsibility.

To take the first objective, I feel it must be acknowledged that the achievement in turning B & I around to a point where they will be making profits shortly is a substantial one by any standard. That is not to say that I have ignored or will ignore the second responsibility which I also have. However, in this regard I feel that we must look at the transport sector as a whole and recognise that there is now a considerable amount of competition within the sector, particularly between sea and air transport. Because of the initiatives I have taken on air travel over the past few years, air fares are now much lower than they otherwise would have been. This in turn has put pressure on the shipping companies to reduce the cost of their services. I would also like to point out that while there may be a fare cartel arrangement on cross-Channel services I have insisted, and will continue to insist, that B & I achieve the maximum possible efficiency in their operations. I stress the word efficiency because while this is a similar, it is also a much broader, concept than pure price competitiveness.

We must also take into account the quality of the services and remember that customers are prepared to pay a premium for a comfortable and friendly service. However, I am also conscious of the need for price competitiveness. In this regard, I can assure the House that the B & I objective is to provide similar services to those operated internationally at a corresponding, if not improved, relative price. My objective in this regard is also shared by the Chairman and Managing Director of the B & I.

In the Green Paper on Transport Policy I referred to the question of providing a strategic shipping fleet for Ireland. The report of the committee which I set up to examine this matter is being examined by the Government and their decisions will be announced in the White Paper on Transport Policy which I hope will be published by the end of the year.

My main policy in relation to ports is to provide an efficient and cost-effective service to international trade so as to maximise the potential for growth in our economy. I am also conscious of the role which port investment can play in regional development. In this regard, the House will note that provision has been made in my Department's Vote for grant assistance of £2.8 million to Cork Harbour Commissioners in respect of the construction of the deepwater wharf at Ringaskiddy in Cork harbour. Work on this project commenced in 1984 and is due for completion this year. The completion of the wharf is the final stage in the Cork harbour development scheme.

The Free Ports Act, 1986, was enacted in March of this year. While it is an enabling measure permitting the establishment of free ports in any area of the State, the immediate purpose of the legislation is to facilitate the establishment of a free port at Ringaskiddy. My Department are consulting with other Departments and with Cork Harbour Commissioners on a number of operational aspects to be finally decided, including the precise area to be designated as the free port, the designation of the management company, details of the licensing regime that will apply to users of the free port when established and the customs and VAT regimes that will apply. These consultations will be concluded as speedily as possible. I believe that both the harbour development scheme and the establishment of a free port at Ringaskiddy have the potential to make a very valuable contribution to the industrial development of the southern region and Cork in particular.

Other expenditure on harbours includes a grant from the Department's Vote of £3 million to the Dublin Port and Docks Board towards the resolution of the board's financial problems. This forms part of the financial package for the board agreed by the Government last year. I am glad to say that the major elements of the package are now in place and that user confidence in the port has been revived. A sustained effort will be required, however, if the port is to maintain recent progress in its return to viability. Provision has been made in the Vote for grant assistance of £359,000 this year towards the cost of providing passenger handling facilities at Rosslare.

The balance of the amount provided in the Vote for grant assistance is mainly in respect of projects at the harbours of Sligo, Tralee and Fenit. Projects at other ports are also being considered for grant purposes, as well as assistance to the Royal National Lifeboats of Ireland for the improvement of lifeboat facilities around the country. The foregoing projects do not include those being financed from the Local Loans Fund, or projects funded by harbour authorities from commercial borrowings or own resources.

Deputies will be aware that the Harbours Bill, 1986, was circulated recently and currently has passed the Committee Stage in its debate in the Seanad. This Bill will provide for the setting up of a unified harbour authority, to be known as the Shannon Ports Authority, which will take over and manage the existing harbours and publicity owned piers in the Shannon Estuary, excluding for the moment Foynes Harbour. The Bill also proposes to provide powers to enable the Minister for Communications to dissolve, reconstitute or amalgamate any of the harbour authorities specified in the First Schedule to the Harbours Act, 1946, to give effect to Government policy as enunciated in the Green Paper on Transport published in November 1985. I look forward to the debate on the Bill when it comes before this House.

A token provision of £1,000 under subhead W.1 is being made to cover payments to the General Lighthouse Fund. Following negotiations between the Irish and British authorities, it has been agreed that in future a greater share of the costs incurred by the Commissioners of Irish Lights in the State will be met from sources in the State. Under the agreement, the light dues collected at Irish ports will be supplemented as necessary by an Exchequer contribution so that total revenue from sources in the State will account for 50 per cent of CIL's expenditure in the State. The arrangement will be phased in over a five-year period commencing at a level of 30 per cent in 1987 and increasing to reach the 50 per cent level by 1991. It is estimated that the cost to the Exchequers in 1987 will be of the order of £1.4 million. The pressure in this matter from the UK Government has irritated me not a little and they are aware of this fact. Arrangements, satisfactory to me, on the future administration of CIL have now to be finalised, but I do not visualise dramatic change.

My commitment to a regular, efficient and cost effective air transport sector is a matter of established fact and considerable achievement. I have consistently kept air fare increases below the rate of inflation and will continue to do so. My recent approval of an application by Ryanair to introduce a scheduled service on Dublin-Luton at unrestricted low fares is an example of my continuing efforts to maintain fares at the lowest possible levels, consistent with continuity of service, and to generally bring a greater degree of liberalisation to air travel.

I have also authorised or agreed in principle the operation of services by:

Ryanair:

Waterford-Luton

Shannon Executive Aviation:

Shannon-Manchester

Shannon-Belfast or Bristol

Shannon-Dublin

Dublin-Derry

Celtic Air:

Connaught-London (Stansted)

Connaught-Manchester

Connaught-Dublin

Connaught-Shannon

In addition, on the North Atlantic route I have authorised two additional carriers — Delta and Pan Am — to operate into Ireland. These, together with Aer Lingus and Northwest Orient who are already on the route, now provide us with the most extensive access air transport from North America in many years. The consequential benefits to the economy are self-evident.

At the European level, there has been much comment on the recent decision by the European Court of Justice concerning the applicability of the competitiveness provisions of the Treaty of Rome to air transport. The Commissioner for Competition, Mr. Sutherland, has signalled his intention to press for the introduction of a far greater element of competition into European air transport. In this he has my full support. It is something I have campaigned strongly for in the Council of Ministers over the past few years. Given the relatively small size of our domestic market it is desirable, if not essential, that Irish operators be given access to far wider markets and at a minimum should have free access to Community markets. In this regard I have the full support of Aer Lingus who have spent considerable effort and resources in developing routes which have been either taken from them or which they have had to share with other carriers who did not incur or share in the initial development costs.

At a meeting of the Council of Transport Ministers in Luxembourg last week, Commissioners Sutherland and Clinton-Davies did not cover themselves in glory. It seems clear that the EC Commission is now pulling in its horn on liberalisation of air transport and the very late paper which they submitted to the Council during last week's meeting was very disappointing to say the least. I hope it is not a case of the Commission, like some of our colleague countries, talking liberally and acting conservatively.

Nineteen eighty six has been a very significant year for our national flag carrier, Aer Lingus. I am sure Members will all join with me in congratulating the board and workforce in the company on their 50th anniversary. They have made a significant contribution to the image of this country abroad and to the development of our economy.

The early eighties witnessed difficult years for the company during the which they made relatively big losses. While they have overcome these difficulties to a large extent and profits for year ending March 1986 should top £20 million, the fact has to be recognised that the profitability of the company has not been sufficient for them to renew their basic plant, that is, aircraft. Given the inadequacy of their reserves for fleet replacement, I feel that we have to look at all the other possible options available to them and to us as owners of the company. Subsidies and free additional equity by the Government, which in effect is the same thing, have been advocated by some and, inevitably, the question of public equity participation arises. However, there are also other options including a range of leasing possibilities and allowings the company borrow either on the domestic or international markets to fund at least part of their capital development programme. Either way, greater profits in an increasingly competitive environment are required. I can assure the board and the workforce that their profits will continue to be available to the company for reinvestment. The future prosperity and expansion of Aer Lingus require that future financing be carefully considered by all and that no option be prematurely excluded.

I referred earlier in my speech to demand for transport being a derived demand. Demand for Aer Rianta's services is also to a large extent derived — from the traffic and passengers passing through our airports. As you will gather from the theme of my speech I am determined to increase these as fast and as much as possible. In this regard I have taken a major initiative this year which I am confident will attract more traffic to our airports. I refer to the introduction of US immigration and public health preinspection. This scheme is just about to commence on a trial basis at Shannon. I would like once again to thank Members of both Houses for facilitating the speedy introduction of this service by passing the necessary legislation so quickly.

The Government are determined to maintain air transport infrastructural facilities at the highest possible level. We are also acutely aware of the role of such investment in stimulating building and construction activity. Expenditure on capital works in this area will more than quadruple this year.

Some months ago the Government approved the provision of a new 8,650 foot runway, together with associated facilities and buildings at Dublin Airport, at an estimated cost of over £31 million. This will be the biggest project to be undertaken at the State airports for some time. Traditionally State airport capital works have been funded fully by the Exchequer. In the case of the runway project, however, there will be a break with tradition in that the project will be funded primarily from non-Exchequer sources. The bulk of the funds will be provided from Aer Rianta's resources and borrowing by the company. An allocation of £3,350,000 is included in the Estimates for electronic equipment for civil aviation and the marine coast stations. The main projects to be carried out during 1986 are:

(i) Installation of two new ILS systems at Dublin Airport.

(ii) Installation of a new ILS system at Cork Airport.

(iii) Installation of new reserve VHF communications equipment at Dublin Airport.

(iv) Installation of new reserve VHF equipment at Shannon Airport.

(v) Provision of additional radar display unit at Dublin Airport.

(vi) Installation of new Range Azimuth beacon monitors at Woodcock Hill and Mount Gabriel.

I would also like to inform the House that I have initiated reviews of all the activities in the Air Navigation Services Office and the Meteorological Service.

Outside consultants have recently commenced the ANSO review and are expected to report back shortly. The Meteorological Service review is being carried out by my Department in association with the DPS. The report of this review should also be available soon.

A key element in our regional development programme is the provision of adequate air transportation facilities within the country. This year I have provided over £1 million in my Estimate for the development of such airports. The bulk of this is earmarked for the development of Carnmore Airport, County Galway, where there is a local contribution of 25 per cent.

Connaught Regional Airport was formally opened last month. I think it is only giving credit where it is due to claim that neither the opening of the airport nor the pilgrimages flights to Lourdes last October could have taken place but for the assistance given by my Department in advising on the technical and administrative steps necessary to meet the target for the commencement of operations. In addition to facilitating the completion of the airport, I gave approval in principle to the inauguration of scheduled air services between Connaught and Dublin, Shannon, London and Manchester.

A number of matters regarding the future administration of the airport remain to be resolved; it is essential for the company to ensure that, for instance, the optimum administrative practices and appropriate accounting procedures be employed.

From the outset, the Connaught Airport project has inspired a mixture of enthusiasm and scepticism. Nevertheless, we can only admire the indefatigable vision of its promoters in pressing the project through to completion. I would like to reiterate the hope that the drive and enthusiasm of the airport's promoters will overcome the valid doubts expressed about its viability.

I am happy to inform the House that the licensing and bonding scheme for the travel trade introduced in 1983 under the Transport (Tour Operators and Travel Agents) Act, 1982, continued to show its worth as a consumer protection measure in 1985. A total of eight travel firms ceased trading in the second half of 1985 as they were unable to meet their obligations to their customers under overseas travel contracts. I activated the statutory rescue arrangements in each. The amount in the fund at present is of the order of £2 million. It has always been my intention to reduce or suspend contributions to the fund when it is large enough to meet any possible contingencies. While this stage has not yet been reached, I propose to carry out a review of the position at the end of this year.

Before concluding my remarks on the transport sector I would like briefly to refer to the response to the Green Paper on Transport Policy. First of all I would like to thank those individuals and institutions who have made submissions as invited on the contents of the discussion paper. The number of submissions received exceeded my expectations and indeed some are still coming in. My officials are analysing these and have already had some meetings with interested parties. I can assure all concerned that I will take full cognisance of their submissions in arriving at conclusions to be incorporated in the White Paper on Transport Policy which I hope will be published before the end of this year.

There are three other important sectors whose regulation is primarily a matter for my Department, namely the postal, telecommunications and broadcasting sectors. The effectiveness — cost and otherwise — of the postal and telecommunications sectors is also a major determinant of competitiveness in our economy. They are also dominated by two State bodies whose financial performance is of equal importance to the taxpayers of this country who, through the Government, are their ultimate owners.

When An Post were set up I gave a clear mandate to the boards to provide a good quality and very cost-effective service. Their response to date has been gratifying and encouraging. Present indications are that the company are within sight of achieving break-even in their profit and loss account.

The company introduced a series of adjustments in postal charges. The increase in basic postal rates — which averaged about 7 per cent — was the first since April 1982, a period of four years. In the same period the price of the main morning newspapers with which the cost of posting a letter is often compared, doubled approximately.

The quality of service of An Post's mails operation continues to be very high, especially by international standards. This is shown by surveys commissioned by An Post themselves and confirmed by independent surveys organised by the Postal Service Users' Council. In general, more than 90 per cent of letters, properly addressed, are delivered on the first day after posting, while over 96 per cent are delivered within two days of posting.

A feature of An Post since vesting day has been their policy of seeking out new business opportunities in order to promote growth and greater utilisation of the postal service including the company's counter facilities. This policy has resulted in a large number of new initiatives by the company, including the special St. Patrick's Day cards, Christmas and Valentine's Day stamps and Publicity post providing a low cost unaddressed mail service for advertisers and so on.

In 1985, the company, for the first time, with Central Bank approval, introduced bureau de change facilities in Dublin, Cork, followed by Killarney earlier this year and the company's intention is to gradually extend this service. The new service provides welcome foreign exchange facilities outside normal banking hours and on Saturdays and will be helpful to the tourism trade. An Post see the provision of bureau de change facilities as part of their strategy to develop and provide a wide range of financial services to consumers.

In 1985 also, An Post succeeded in securing the franchise for the operation of the proposed national lottery. This was a considerable coup for the company in the face of significant competition. The national lottery is a major undertaking for any company and the decision to entrust the operation to An Post was interpreted — correctly — as a sign of Government confidence in the company's capacity to do the job well. I know that this capacity can be translated into performance provided the company can continue to contain costs. Given the labour intensity of the service labour costs must receive priority in this regard. Workers in An Post have been given extra job security by the Government decision to award them this franchise. I know they appreciate this and hope it will be reflected in their wage demands. Their first priority should be to contribute towards making the company a profitable and vibrant entity by reducing charges to business and the public and thereby generate increased demand for their services.

Telecommunications is an area where availability of service has tended to dominate discussion with the price of the service being considered secondary by many. While I will concentrate my remarks on the former I do not wish in any way to downgrade the importance I attach to costs in this area and the need to ensure the maximum possible efficiency in all segments of the market.

Operation of the public switched telephone network is and will always be regarded by Telecom Éireann as their primary function. Telecom Éireann have continued to make significant progress towards the elimination of the waiting list for telephones. A waiting list of over 60,000 on 1 January, 1984, when the company came into operation, has now been reduced to less than 28,000 and the company feel that they will meet their target of eliminating that list in the current year. During the 12 months to 31 December, 1985 BTE connected 75,008 new phones, almost as many as in 1984 — 75,949 — and an increase of almost 37.5 per cent on the number connected in 1983. If the growth rate of telephone lines continues at present rate the company expect to be within sight of 1,000,000 lines in 1991 and to have lines in 60 per cent of households by that date.

Ireland now has one of the most modern telex services in the world. The national network is completely automatic while, internationally, automatic service is available to 160 countries. The company expect to increase the number of lines on the network to 7,740 this year and to establish the maximum waiting period for service at three weeks from the date of application.

When Telecom Éireann came into operation on 1 January, 1984, a number of firms were already supplying a range of telecommunications terminal equipment. With the intention of giving the new State body an opportunity to establish themselves, I decided to restrict those companies in the initial stages at least to the types of equipment supplied by them in the pre-1984 period. I gave Telecom Éireann an exclusive licence for items such as telephone sets, dial-up modems and telex terminal equipment which were formerly supplied exclusively by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

I have decided, in response to representations from the telecommunications trade, to stimulate competition in the telecommunications terminal equipment market with a view to reducing the costs. I, therefore, extended to all licensees the right to provide dial-up modems and telex terminal equipment with effect from December 1985 and April 1986 respectively. Telecom Éireann are still exclusively licensed for the remaining item, namely, telephone sets. I will, however, keep the situation under review.

In the initial period following the establishment of Telecom Éireann, a system for the licensing of firms to supply, install and maintain equipment approved for connection to the national telecommunications network was introduced. This system had two aims: (i) to regularise the position of firms already in or entering the retail telecommunications terminal equipment trade; and (ii) to protect the network and network personnel. The aims of protecting the network and network personnel were achieved by ensuring that firms were competent before they were licensed and by ensuring that all equipment connected was compatible with the network. Firms already in the business were deemed to be competent. A scale of licence fees ranging from £10,000 to £300 was established with the aim of making the licensing scheme self financing and financing the testing of equipment to ensure compatibility.

This system which was intended only as an interim measure was found to be cumbersome so I decided, after consultation with the retail telecommunications trade, to replace it with a single renewable licence covering all approved equipment with an annual licence fee which I set at £150 for 1986. I also decided that from 1 January, 1986 applicants who wished to have equipment approved for connection to the network would be obliged to finance the necessary tests themselves.

I am hopeful that these initiatives to stimulate competition will lead to a more efficient and cost effective sector. However, I also hope that BTE will continue to reduce the cost of their core business to improve the competitiveness of our trading sectors. Their progress in this regard has been reasonably satisfactory to date. In 1984 substantial reductions — up to one-third — were made in international telex and leased line charges. Further, international telephone and telex call charges generally were exempted from the charge increases implemented from 5 April 1985, and from 1 April 1986. As a further step in improving competitiveness, telephone prices on key international routes were reduced by 10 per cent from 1 April 1986. I hope this process will continue and accelerate until BTE are fully competitive with the most efficient bodies in the same field in our trading partners.

Last, but by no means least, I come to the final area for which my Department have responsibility, namely broadcasting. Subhead F1 of the Estimate provides for a grant-in-aid to RTE of £38.2 million in respect of net receipts from television licence fees. This is an increase of some £5.1 million or 15 per cent over last year and is well above the anticipated rate of inflation this year. The increase in the grant-in-aid payment to RTE reflects the efforts of An Post in increasing sales and the increase in licence fee rates approved by the Government from 1 March 1986.

The review of Radio Telefís Éireann commissioned by me and published in September 1985 recommended that RTE should be given full responsibility for the control of licence fee revenue collection. RTE argued themselves for many years that it is more appropriate that they should have full control over the collection of what amounts to approximately 50 per cent of the body's total income. At present the task of collecting television licence fee revenue and of detecting unlicensed and incorrectly licensed sets is delegated by statutory order from the Minister for Communications to An Post. Gross licence fee revenue is paid by An Post to the Department and is brought to account as an appropriation-in-aid of the Vote. A payment equivelent to gross receipts less collection and other minor costs is made from Subhead F to RTE. I am considering how the present arrangements can be improved upon and how the relationship between RTE and An Post can be placed on a less cumbersome footing.

The computerisation of all licence fee records should be completed by the end of this year. During 1985, An Post achieved the target of 750,000 sales set. Also, as a result of ongoing inspections and selective campaigns, over 52,000 licence evaders were detected in 1985. This year, An Post are confident of reaching a target of 770,000 licence sales. In this context, a new saving stamps scheme, using forgery resistant stamps, was introduced in May.

Following the detailed review of RTE carried out last year by consultants on my behalf, the RTE Authority have considered the findings and recommendations contained in the consultants' report and have submitted a draft corporate strategy for the period up to 1990. The strategy document is currently being considered within my Department and I hope to be in a position to respond to it in the near future.

The RTE Authority will, I am now confident, streamline and strengthen the organisation and its financial base so as to enable it to face the current and future demands of its customers. This will entail greater labour flexibility in RTE, increasing substantially the amount of home produced material transmitted and containing all input costs. RTE can and must give the licence holder better value for money.

In anticipation of early enactment of the Local Radio Bill, 1985, which was introduced in this House this time last year, I established a non statutory interim local radio commission over a year ago to do all necessary preparatory work to facilitate the speedy establishment of legitimate local radio following the enactment of the Bill. The commission have done much work in endeavouring to formulate the policy that would be adopted by the statutory commission in relation to the areas where local and community radio services could be established and in relation to the type of service that may be allowed within the framework of the Bill. Deputies will appreciate that this type of work will be the statutory responsibility of the commission in due course and to the extent that the ground rules have been laid, legitimate local and community radio can be established quickly. I am very disappointed that it has not been possible to make progress on the Bill despite my efforts to resolve the difficulties that have arisen. I am still hopeful that these difficulties can be resolved and that the genuine concerns and fears of RTE and others in regard to the proposals in the Bill can be met.

Subhead F2 provides for a grant of £1,625,000 to RTE in respect of net receipts from licence fees on cable television systems. Increases in this subhead amounting to £275,000 or 20 per cent over 1985 are due mainly to increased charges for cable television services and to growth in the number of systems and the number of homes connected.

In March 1985 I published the report of the committee which I set up to look at the whole future of the cable area. The committee's recommendations, which are quite wide-ranging, constitute a useful blueprint for the future development of cable. In the short term I have been addressing the question of permitting satellite delivered programmes to be relayed on cable systems, etc. Work will be commencing shortly on a revision of existing cable regulations and on the preparation of a new upgraded technical specification for cable systems. I expect that further discussions will take place with the cable industry on these matters in the near future.

In September 1985, I announced that the Government had decided, in principle, to enter into negotiations with Atlantic Satellites plc. with a view to concluding an agreement to allow the company to construct and put into place the necessary satellite infrastructure and hardware which will enable the country to take advantage of direct broadcasting by satellite. A detailed business plan has been submitted by the company. This is being evaluated by the inter-departmental committee overseeing the project, representing my Department, the Department of Finance and the Department of Industry and Commerce. When the recommendations of the commitee on the business plan have been received the question of entering into a formal contractual commitment with the company will be considered by the Government.

In conclusion, I emphasise once again my commitment to efficiency and costeffectiveness in all the sectors and services which come within the ambit of my Department. The Estimates before the House today are the minimum amounts needed to provide such services. They are value for money. They could not be provided without the co-operation and commitment of many dedicated public servants. For this I thank them.

I commend these Estimates to the House.

On the eve of the Derby, if I were putting à bet on I would know where to place it for speed. The Minister said that, given the importance of the communications sectors and the State bodies within these for the general competitiveness and employment prospects of the economy, it is important that Members of the House should be given an opportunity to debate and to contribute to general policy formulation in this area. This half day's debate is not adequate for a debate on the multifaceted Department of Communications. The Members of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party sub-committee on communications would like to contribute to a more widely ranging debate which would last over a longer period than this. However, there is no point in complaining about it now as we must make do with the time available.

No matter what we may find to commend in the speech — and there are a number of things on which I would be in full agreement with the Minister — there is one item of the Minister's policy which, for me, vitiates the whole thing, one apple that rots the barrel. I refer to the Government's handling of the Irish Shipping fiasco. I repeat that I consider the action of the Minister and the Government to be national sabotage.

It was unavoidable.

It jettisoned decades of profitable activity by a company of prestige in international shipping circles. It also jettisoned the good name for credit of Ireland in all major ports, east and west. It drew opprobrium on Irish officers and crews in the Indian Ocean at Mombasa, in the Pacific Ocean Taiwan and in the Mediterranean at Marseilles. Above all, it treated Irishmen and Irishwomen, who were paragons of achievement — and I have gone into this and studied it — in studying marine science in Ireland and in Britain and in handling our ships with an expertise unsurpassed in international shipping, with a shabbiness and a meanness unparallelled even in the greediest of private enterprises. How the Labour Members of Government could support such miserly, ungenerous decision is hard to comprehend. I am appealing to the Minister to look at subhead W.2 again and to increase the lowly sum to cover payments to all the former employees of Irish Shipping. I do this for the umpteenth time in this House and with the backing of Deputies from the Government side of the House.

The Irish Spruce was only the latest of the sales of our deep-sea ships. Various sums have been mentioned as being the cost of this debacle. Even with the Minister's figure of £50 million we could have an Irish deep-sea fleet of 16 Irish Spruces, something we do not need, on the basis of what was paid by whoever bought the Irish Spruce. Perhaps the Minister will tell us that.

Various Ministers, including the Minister for Health, have been sneering at Fianna Fáil's commitment to establish within a reasonable time a deep-sea fleet. I want to repeat that commitment to the Dáil. The strategy may demand handy sized rather than larger ships. Be that as it may, we shall stand by our policy and ask the Minister for Health, or any other Minister who indulges in the type of sneering that he did, to stick to their last. I have already stated in this House that the time is more than opportune for an investment in a deep-sea fleet. Ships are available at knock-down prices. Fuel, as the Minister mentioned, has dropped dramatically. The last time I checked The Economist figure the drop was 15.3 per cent for North Sea Brent-Light Arabian crude which used to be the one quoted. Whichever is quoted, that is the figure we are talking about. Admittedly, prices for fuel and ships have dropped for other countries as well. But we envisage a deep-sea fleet, even if we start with one small ship and then expand as profits are made and as demand builds up.

I have so many things to cover that I will be brief on most of them. First, the Minister has already taken the Bill on CIE into the Seanad. The Bill envisages an overall company and three separate companies, one for the Dublin city services, one for rail and one for the provincial bus services. This, of course, is not what is recommended in the McKinsey report. We all know that and admit that. We have expressed doubts as to whether adding another layer of bureaucracy will make for efficiency in the new companies. I had an opportunity of seeing privately the demonstration of the new structures and I was impressed by them. However, we have been getting a great deal of correspondence on the matter from people vitally interested on theoretical levels and from those vitally interested in that they are employed in CIE, and specifically from the trade unions, that they are particularly worried about the proposal to have the two separate companies, one for the provincial bus services and the other for rail. Their belief is that one single company would be better because otherwise there will be two companies under the same umbrella, so to speak, in competition with each other. The transport committee of Fianna Fáil is examining their fears and trying to see whether there is truth in what they are alleging.

I think the Minister, in his attack on the National Association of Transport Employees, was a little bit intemperate today. I cannot let the opportunity pass without saying that. He seems to have taken the opportunity to launch an attack on a trade union leader who, in fact, was simply making a statement at his annual general meeting in defence of his members, as he is not merely entitled but enjoined to do by virtue of the office which he holds. I would just like to say that I do not agree with the Minister in making that kind of attack. It is an ominous kind of an attack and rings certain bells that link up with certain provisions that were put into, and in one case withdrawn from, Bills that came before this House trying to stifle trade union participation in industrial relations and to reserve for the Minister for Communications certain rights of decision with regard to remuneration of workers in companies under the aegis of the Department of Communications. There is no justification for the attack. I see the way the chairman of NATE was thinking. He was thinking that the rivalry between two companies under the same umbrella, the CIE umbrella, could cause the railway to lose the battle. As that trade union, as far as I know, represents mainly railway workers, he is entitled to express his concerns and we are obliged to listen and reject it if we find his argument unreasonable or take cognisance of it by way of amendment to the Bill if the situation so demands.

The Minister, in going through the various activities of CIE, indicated that the mainline coaches programme, initiated by Fianna Fáil in Government, has been advanced. He indicated that the DART system, also initiated by Fianna Fáil in Government, is also under way. I would like some statistics on the DART operation now. We had statistics before and the Minister told the House how many passengers DART would have to carry per annum to break even and go ahead to make a profit. I was looking in the Library for some statistics but the most up to date statistics I could get in the Library were up to June of 1985. I have on my own files more up-to-date statistics than those. If he gets an opportunity when replying, perhaps the Minister would indicate how passenger traffic on DART has developed since he last gave statistics to the House.

I am on record in this House regarding Dublin city bus services. It is well to look at the Book of Estimates to see the breakdown of the subsidy to CIE. On page 179, Revised Estimate 43, we are told that the payment in respect of public service obligations associated with the provision of rail services for 1986 will be £73,250,000. Payment in respect of public service obligations associated with the provision of Dublin city bus services is given at £18 million — a welcome drop of £1.5 million. I cannot see how the Dublin city bus service, with proper drive and motivation, could not be a paying proposition. I have stated that during many debates here. There is here a huge population in a constricted area. The buses available are usually of good quality. The marketing does not appear able to cope, to attract more passengers for those services. The transport consultative commission report gave comparative statistics for other cities of similar size throughout Europe and, from the finance point of view, Dublin came pretty well out of the comparison. However, that is not good enough. Years ago there were complaints that Dublin city services were subsidising inefficient services in the rest of the country. When we look at the statistics as given in the Book of Estimates, we see that the Dublin city services cost is £18 million in 1986 and the provincial bus services amounts to £2,700,000. If the new CIE cannot get that house in order, they will be another transport failure.

I should like the Minister's comments on the following subject. There has been published an account of a Craig Gardner report of 1985. As far as I know, the report was submitted to CIE at the end of 1985. There have been denials of its existence. Can the Minister say if it exists? If it does and was put together at public expense, why can we not have a look at it? Why has it not been published? It may have been published since I made these notes about it, but to my knowledge it has not been made public. It is in this context of the Dublin city service as a viable, commercial and profitable unit of CIE that I am talking about it. Could the Minister let us know if it exists, when it will be published, or the principal recommendations of the report? I would be grateful for that information.

I use the Dublin city bus service occasionally — far too infrequently, because one learns much from the top of the bus. The top of the Clapham bus is, of course, the place for the real, solid citizen. I have been struck by the courtesy of the conductors. I have heard complaints about this and know that certain people have gone public about the lack of courtesy. There may be discourteous conductors but on a number of occasions I took a bus at times when school children were getting on and off. As far as I could see there was a personal relationship between the conductor and those school children. They knew him by name and he knew some of them by name. He was able to keep them in order which, at the best of times, is a difficult task but also great good humour prevailed thoughout the entire operation. I am not saying that is universal among CIE personnel but it exists and could be built on. In the context of developing a bus service for the city of Dublin, where the customers are, if you could only entice them on to the buses, that kind of courtesy is very important indeed.

I can deal only superficially with the various problems which come up in this wide ranging Estimate debate. I should like to mention the engineering plant potential at Inchicore. It has been indicated to me that there is a wealth of talent and skill there. Might it not be worth while engaging consultants to look at what is there by way of skills, with the objective of branching off into areas of engineering other than those directly related to CIE activities, doing creative work in its proper sense, creating new small industries as has happened in similar industries in Denmark, for example?

My next point relates to a different Department but that being so, it tends to get lost and is not highlighted at all. The Minister cannot and will not comment on it, but it concerns the CIE hotels. I have a list of their losses in the early eighties. They have gone to CERT and to the Department of Labour and we do not know whether their financial position or performance has improved in the meantime. I am putting down a marker to remind myself to query the Minister for Labour who, I think, has responsibility now in that area.

The Minister for Communications is constantly boasting about the improvement that he made in CIE finances. He will find that the decision to make an above the line contribution was already made when he went into that Department. I approve of this decision and it can improve morale. As far as CIE subsidies are concerned, there was a 500 to 600 per cent increase in these in the period between 1972 and 1977. That is something that we should not forget. There is a tendency to blame Fianna Fáil for all heavy expenditure, but I just wanted to put that on the record of the House.

In all fairness, the responsibility has been placed with all previous Governments.

I apologise to the Minister if he thinks I said he made that statement. I just said that the tendency was to hang that criticism around the neck of the Fianna Fáil Government. It jumped from £6 million in 1972 to £33,200,000 in 1977 and that increase has continued on its merry way. I accept what the Minister says in that regard.

We had a long and detailed debate on the Dublin Transport Authority in this House. I indicated to the Minister that I was very disappointed with what he ended up with. He emasculated the Bill as it was originally envisaged. I said at the time, and still maintain, that the Department of the Environment counterattacked the Department of Communications — or Transport as it was then — and succeeded in getting the Environment point of view accepted, thus taking away the real powers that were envisaged for the Dublin Transport Authority at the very beginning.

The time will come when the Dublin Transport Authority legislation will be amended by this House and when some of the original powers will have to be given back. European criticism of our transport focuses on one point which was covered in the original Bill. That is that transport, in the context of the Dublin Transport Authority, has no control over the roads. The European mind cannot envisage that. It was originally intended that the powers of the Dublin Transport Authority would stretch not to the area of road making, the Department of the Environment would continue to have responsibility for that, but to organising the whole road system and would have the expertise to deal with the road and rail system and to ensure that the planning was co-ordinated which is not necessarily so at present and may not necessarily be so in the future.

The Dublin Transport Authority Act is a kind of toothless dragon in some areas. In other areas it is a good Act and will improve traffic if it is effectively implemented. I would like the Minister to tell us when the transport authority will be created. What date has he in mind? As we have all recorded in the House, the task force have done a very fine job considering they did not have any statutory legs to stand on. They have done a lot of work since their establishment. I observe in Dublin city, not with increasing frequency but frequently enough, that people are breaking the regulation about the use of the bus lanes. I hoot at them whenever I can. It is not very effective but it is an indication that I do not approve. When I was in office I was put under some pressure by interest groups to allow then to use the bus lanes but I refused to do so. I hope that a strict and strong line will be maintained in that regard. The bus lanes have freed transport considerably.

The Minister devoted a considerable part of his speech to the new Bill covering the activities of road hauliers. I do not intend to spend any more time debating that. We discussed it in fine detail in the House. The hauliers are anxious about enforcement. Those who are anxious to avail of the new regulations and to equip themselves with proper licences and so on want the legislation enforced without delay. The Minister's new inspectorate is an important element in this whole area. I would like him to tell me — he mentioned it when we were discussing the Bill — when he expects to establish the inspectorate, whether he will be using officers who are already in the Department of Communications and, if not, when he will be recruiting the staff. What are the qualifications that will be necessary for this task, apart from a very tough hide and when will the force be under way?

I know that international hauliers have been worried about the various aspects of European travel in particular. I will mention a representation en passant which I received from a person who spends most of his time on the Continent. He gave me a schedule of the road toll charges he pays in France and Spain. He made the case that although his truck is seldom in this country he is paying substantial tax on it here. He is also paying a very substantial tax in Europe. The figures are quite alarming. He felt that he was at a competitive disadvantage in this regard.

The Minister dealt with the B & I on which, as the Minister indicated, we had a very full debate in this House. I indicated the criticisms that this side of the House had with regard to the new B & I arrangement. We are very suspicious of the cartel. We are very suspicious of the arrangement on the southern corridor and with good reason. We want to make sure that a State-subsidised company — we were voting £38 million at the time — should not use their position as a State-subsidised company to damage private hauliers using the southern corridor. I got an assurance from the Minister and from the B & I that this would not happen. Vigilance is important in this area. I had the advantage since then of meeting the chairman and chief executive with his two deputies, Messrs. Bird and Kennedy, and had a discussion with them on the matter.

We should watch what is for sale on the B & I ships and the Sealink ships. Sealink were a British company but are now owned by an American, an efficint and ruthless businessman. we want to make sure that Irish goods are not excluded from the single ship that will operate on the Rosslare-Fishguard route. I got assurances on most of the points I made from the Minister and from the chairman and chief executive when discussing this with them. We must remember that the gentleman who now owns Sealink also owns Holyhead, Fishguard and Stranraer ports. CIE own Rosslare port, the OPW own the port of Dún Laoghaire and the Dublin Port and Docks Board own Dublin port. These three bodies should see to it that they exact from Sealink what is and has been exacted from the B & I who had ships on the Pembroke route first and now on the Fishguard, Holyhead and Liverpool routes.

The Cork situation has come in for considerable debate. I cannot help going along with what Deputy Coveney said, as reported in The Cork Examiner some time ago, that there was need for a ferry but only during the summer months. I agree also with him that local interests should be involved in it. I would go a stage further and say that the Minister and the Government should give any support they can in this regard. The whole business is difficult to assess from an economics point of view. We gain a great deal from the tourist trade in the Cork, Kerry, Clare and Limerick areas when there is a ferry.

Deputy Coveney envisaged a break even three month operation. If that is so, it is an economic plus for the country as a whole. Even if there was a slight loss in the operation of the ferry — giving the game away at that stage as it were — it might not necessarily mean a loss for the country. As we have no longer a price control mechanism I am asking the Minister to keep an eye on the cartel arrangement. Air fares will cause the shipping companies to watch their charges and so on. There have been substantial increases by both B & I and Sealink which some people say could not have been warranted on the basis of the drop in fuel charges. It is an area where exploitation could take place.

I received a letter today from Anglo Irish Container Line indicating that they had read what I had said here on the B & I and I quote:

In view of your comments relative to the alleged cartel operating on the Irish Sea, I felt you would be interested to learn of the establishment of this new line which commenced operations on the 2nd June. With a chartered vessel we operate a lift on lift off container service direct between Dublin South Bank Terminal and Royal Seaforth Terminal in Liverpool. We sail from Dublin on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays and from Liverpool on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and believe we are filling a necessary gap in the "Central Corridor" by providing a direct competitive personalised service to Irish importers and exporters.

I do not know who owns that company but obviously, not all that is said in this House is ignored by everybody. The Minister did not mention Irish Continental Line in the course of his speech. I would like him to tell us what the position in that regard is. By persistency, I extracted the information that the B & I had asked consultants to advise them on what was the best thing to do with regard to Irish Continental Line. I have not got any follow on information on that. I would like to know what the position is. An allegation has been made that Sealink's boss has been encouraging the B & I to purchase ICL. I do not know whether there is any substance in that but that hint was given in this House and repeated outside. If the Minister has information on that matter the House is entitled to get it. It will not do any damage to the general credibility of any of the Irish interests concerned. It would be as well for us to know what the real position is.

The Minister mentioned that he made £3 million available to the Dublin Port and Docks Board. The improvement at the port is highly desirable. We should be delighted that this improvement has taken place. It is the capital city and it is a major port by any standards. It has almost died. People as far north as Carrickfergus were gaining from the troubles which took place in Dublin Port. Every place from there down to Drogheda and from Dublin south were gaining by the troubles that were being experienced in Dublin port. The troubles were damn near killing it. It is a matter of some satisfaction that the major trouble has been dealt with. I hope it stays that way and that the port continues to thrive.

The Minister also referred to the Harbours Bill. I have already criticised certain powers that the Minister tried to take for his Department in the B & I Bill. I do not like something I see in the Harbours Bill which sets up the estuarial Authority in the Shannon Estuary. The Minister gives himself powers to abolish ad nutum the Foynes Harbour Authority. He should not do that. As Minister I met the Foynes Harbour Authority people. They were very impressive and convincing. Nothing convinces one as much as being shown a balance sheet with a profit. They are afraid to get into the grasp of Limerick city or any authority covering that area. They are profitable. The grant they received from the Government with regard to development was minimal. They used their own moneys to develop Foynes. I would say to the Minister, be careful, hands off if they are doing well.

The Free Ports legislation received minute treatment in the House. We went over all the free ports in the world, in particular the very successful one in Florida which has conditions and circumstances with which no one could compete. There is no way that anything as profitable could be developed in this country. It is more in earnest than in hope that Cork is being established as a free port. It was agreed on all sides of the House at the time that it is not a panacea, that free port will not cure Cork's ills but if it encourages investment in industry on the very substantial industrial site near it, the investment in the equipment for Ringaskiddy deep sea harbour will come to fruition. As the House well knows, Cork needs some kind of economic elixir at present.

With the Minister, I would like to compliment Aer Lingus on having reached their golden jubilee. The celebration of the jubilee was very enjobable. It was good to see two people who flew on the original flight travelling again to Bristol to celebrate the golden jubilee. I first used the DC-3s over 40 years ago. I had a great liking for them. There was real leather on the seats and one sank very deep into them. Sometimes one had a bucking bronco type of flight. I could only afford night flights then. These were known as "star flights" where one left at 2 a.m.

The early birds leave at 6 a.m.

They were for the respectable people. The cosmhuintir had to go at 2 a.m. It was nice to be nostalgic for a while but I must get back to realities. The cost alleviation figure has been dropped this year. Last year was a very successful one as everyone knows. Marketing people may claim credit for that but the fact is that the big credit was because of the strength of the dollar. There is no question about that. There was also an ethnic significance. The dollar was strong for the Irish-American as it was for everyone else. It seems strange that having maintained the figure at a certain level in a year that was very good, it is now being dropped. It is generally agreed that there will be a drop in the number of passengers this year due to something stupid which happened in the Mediterranean. People are frightened to come to Europe. I cannot understand that that is the particular year we choose to drop the alleviation figure particularly when Delta are coming for the first time and when Pan Am have resumed their flights into Ireland. There may be a lack of logic in that. The paramount question exercising people's minds at present is the financing of the fleet. The general report is that the company want the Boeing 737-300 because flights out of Heathrow are becoming very frequent, so a somewhat larger plane is needed if profits are to be maximised. The Minister devoted a portion of his remarks to this whole question.

I do not think anybody would begrudge Deputy Wilson a few extra minutes. There seems to be only Deputy Leyden and myself left to speak——

I think Deputy Michael Ahern wants to speak as well. I am grateful to the Deputy. I will be as quick as possible.

There was an element of the Delphic Oracle about what the Minister said on funding. He did not say he was refusing equity; he did not say he was giving equity. He did not say he was inviting private investment; he did not say he was going to preclude the possibility of private investment. I am sure Deputy Kelly would be able to give six or seven utterances, off the top of his tongue, from the Delphic Oracle which would be in the halfpenny place only with the Minister's remarks about the financing of Aer Lingus. We would like something up front, clearer on that. How much equity, what exactly is required? The ICTU say there are big exaggerations, that £200 million is all that is required; others have stated £1 billion. I think they are thinking about the jumbos way out front many years hence into the nineties.

I want to mention Ryan Air, the Celtic Air, Delta and the Pan Am new situation which has put pressure on Aer Lingus. I suppose in the end the weakest will go to the wall. At least in the short term the customer will benefit from what is happening.

I have a note here about the European Court of Justice, the ruling that price fixing is out. I know that the European Parliament took the Council of Ministers of Transport to court over dragging their feet with regard to competition in various areas. I am in full agreement with the Minister when he says there is a lot of lip service paid to competition. My experience was that competition meant different things to different people. The British and Dutch have received great praise in this House and outside it for their initiatives on the matter. I do not believe that was straight-across-theboard acceptance of free competition, particularly with regard to fifth freedom rights to which we were entitled on the basis of having established a business. Then they were taken from us in one particular instance. There is a good deal of pseudo-liberalism bandied about but, when the chips are down, it is the pound sterling, the guilder, or whatever, that counts. I think the Minister has been somewhat hard on Commissioner Sutherland. He has indicated that he is anxious to get competition going. However I have noticed with other commissioners a certain arrogance, a certain stepping out of their place with regard to the Treaty of Rome, a kind of bullying philosophy. I am not saying Commissioner Sutherland is guilty of that but others of them are, a type of attitude: whether Ministers like it or not, we will make them do this or that, again, relying on the Treaty of Rome to do so. I had intended dealing with the Euro shipping policy, the efforts made to have a common policy, but I do not have sufficient time.

With regard to Aer Rianta there is a little exercise I should like someone to do. Aer Rianta are making a profit. Would someone do an accountancy exercise and state what would be the exact position if the capital costs had been borne by Aer Rianta in the past? Let us say Aer Rianta make £10 million profit and make that available to the Minister, but to date the capital costs had to be borne by the Exchequer. I note the Minister has announced a change in this respect. One question that has been posed and that I am repeating is: how could Connacht Regional Airport build a 10,000 foot runway for £12 million whereas an 8,600 foot runway at Dublin Airport will cost £31 million exclusive of compensation costs for the land? Belfast has proved to be a very strong competitor with Dublin. Particularly in my area it is said that the Belfast-London run is being operated at a loss and, for that reason, the charges are low. I am delighted that Ryan Air are operating. There is one point that arose in Europe to which I should like to refer and which is highly relevant to the operations of Aer Rianta, that is the danger that the duty-free operation, which is a great money spinner — I think £8 million on the last count — might be abolished by the European Council of Ministers cum Commission.

I commend the Minister on having provided the new preinspection facility at Shannon. Perhaps it is an earnest of freer access. Last May Deputy Frank Cluskey and I were in a queue at New York Airport for nearly two hours. If this new facility speeds up that operation, all the better. Deputy De Rossa adopted a rather silly type of attitude to it, fearing the infiltration of the Americans, building it up into a case without any substance. I know it is important to watch the super powers, that that is the essence of political wisdom. They are like ourselves, out for themselves, out to take whatever advantage they can, but one can exaggerate in the manner that Deputy De Rossa did.

The Minister mentioned the tour operators and the Transport (Tour Operators and Travel Agents) Act, 1982. I am glad the provisions of that Act are operating well. The Minister mentioned the fund. There is another fund — about which I asked a parliamentary question some time ago, perhaps two or three years ago — which was established prior to that and in which some commentators were interested. I think it is under the control of the tour operators. It was available before the funds were built up as a result of the provisions of that Act. I should like to know in what kind of legal Valhalla that fund is now. Some commentators indicated that they did not think it was at the disposal of the tour operators.

I had intended to go through the Book of Estimates. I have a number of points noted here but I think I shall have to leave them for some other time. It happened me last time also, that I did not get through everything that had to be dealt with.

Deputy, I am somewhat at a loss. The Deputy is somewhat over his time but I think there is some arrangement——

I shall conclude now by saying that the Euro dimension will assume increasing importance in the next few years. They will find it very difficult to make any progress because of the "mé féin" type of attitude that obtains. We must be honest, we adopt it too; if one is in that kind of business one has to do it. If one has to surrender an advantage one has to be seen to gain a little advantage if one is looking after the interests of one's country.

I might make one final point about the Minister's powers under the Foreshore Act, of, I think, 1946. I know there are two Acts quoted in a footnote in the Book of Estimates. Rosslare have made representations to me and asked me to go down to see the serious coast erosion problem there. The Minister has overall control, the Office of Public Works being involved also. CIE own Rosslare Harbour. I am talking about Rosslare itself where barriers have been erected to catch the sand. Apparently the sand moves north and these barriers stop the erosion. A number of these barriers have been erected at a very moderate cost. Apparently other barriers can be erected which would do a great deal of good in the preservation of the shore in that area. The people in Rosslare itself are anxious that some initiative be taken in this regard. They have also talked about nourishment of the strand by pumping sand up onto it and so on. It is an area requiring serious attention. It appeared to me that there might be a European interest in its development.

I welcome the Estimates all except with regard to Irish Shipping Limited which, as I said at the beginning vitiates a good deal of it for me. For that reason probably I shall be opposing the Estimates as a whole.

I want to raise one point only on the Minister's Estimate. I would have had many other things to say about it but I do not want to distract attention from this single point which I tried but failed to raise on the Adjournment two weeks ago. It appears to me to be of such importance that I should not let it slip and I am very surprised that no other Deputy tried to draw the attention of the House to this matter during the past three weeks.

On 5 June The Irish Times and perhaps other papers carried a report from the annual conference of the Postal and Telecommunications Worker's Union in Portlaoise. The report is, of course, in the words of The Irish Times' reporter and I cannot vouch for the truth of it but I naturally take for granted the accurate intent of the reporter concerned. The report states:

Postal workers all over the Republic may refuse to handle the South African Digest. The annual conference of the PTWU yesterday adopted a resolution asking the executive committee to instruct all branches not to handle the magazine which was said to be propagandist.

A named gentleman, whose name I will not repeat here said that members of the union in Blackrock had been refusing to handle the digest for the last six months. About 30 copies arrived every month and they were piling up in the Blackrock post office. The report adds that the general secretary said the postal authorities approached the executive to try to get the ban lifted. However, the executive declined to lift it. The general secretary, very much to his credit, reminded the union and its conference that there were penalties under the criminal code for interference with mail delivery. That was an extremely pertinent reminder and credit is due to a very responsible secretary for drawing the attention of his conference to this point.

It seems to me to raise a much larger and more urgent public issue which ought not to pass unnoticed in this House. I recognise that there are strong feelings about the regime in South Africa and I share them myself. The only respect, perhaps, in which I differ from the people who promote policies of sanctions against South Africa is that I cannot see why South Africa alone is singled out among all the other criminal or semi-criminal regimes in the world. I cannot see why it alone must be the pariah when there are many other States in which I would be equally or more unwilling to live than South Africa. I cannot see why there should be a special case made of South Africa but that is the only respect in which my opinions on it differ from those of the PTWU. I respect and take for granted the generosity and humanity of their feelings about the people who suffer from the existence of a regime such as that run by the Pretoria Government.

I do not want to give offence to a large number of very decent people, to whom I unwittingly and very foolishly and stupidly did give offence a few years ago by a very stupid unconsidered remark which they quite rightly resented and for which I did my best to apologise at the time. I do not want to give offence to the PTWU but I have to say that a postal worker has no business forming a judgment of any kind about the content of a packet which it is his duty to deliver. I use the word "packet" because it is the technical legal word for anything going through the post and includes even a slim letter with a single sheet of paper. It is the duty of a postal worker to expedite the delivery of that letter, even if it be a circular or a piece of blatant progaganda, quite irrespective of its content. For all I know, it might even be a piece of criminally seditious literature.

There are proper authorities for dealing with that and these authorities may in some contexts have the right to call upon the postal worker to co-operate in impounding mail or interfering with it under other well recognised legal powers, but the postal worker himself has no right to do so. He may have his own strong opinions, which may be very correct and which many of us in the House might share, about the source from which propaganda material going through the post may emanate. I have said already that I would share the feelings of the PTWU about the Pretoria Government's propaganda material but that has nothing to do with the duty he is paid to perform, namely, to deliver that letter to the person whose name and address appear on the outside.

I am one of the recipients of the South African Digest and I do not mind telling the House that I never even take it out of its wrapper. My South African Digest goes straight into the waste-paper basket and if the South African Embassy in London like to take note of the fact they are welcome to strike my name off their mailing list. I do not make an invidious exception of South African material since I put nearly all such material into the waste-paper basket with complete impartiality. Life is simply not long enough to read the material which every Deputy gets in massive does every day of the week.

The point is that today it is South African material to which the postal workers take exception and feel they are within their rights in refusing to deliver. Under a different constellation, next year or in five years' time, there may be some other set of beliefs and dissatisfactions, resentments and hostilities in the world and it may be that post office workers here or elsewhere will take exception to material which can be classified as propaganda coming from the Fine Gael Party, the Fianna Fáil Party, the Labour Party or any other party in this country. While one can sympathise with the sentiments about South Africa, it has to be made absolutely plain that the post must be relied on regularly to deliver and to expedite whatever is entrusted to it. Once the principle is admitted or tolerated for an instant that anybody working in the postal service is entitled to exercise his own judgment over the content of material which is going through the postal process, one of the principal things which make for a civilised society is in danger.

Although it is not very often seen in this light, the freedom to communicate is exercised quite as much through the postal service as through the media, quite as much through the distribution of letters, circulars or propaganda material through the post as it is by the publication of opinions in the newspapers or the transmission of opinions over the broadcasting system. I would be just as unwilling to see the postal service subject to a kind of quiet, unpublicised private censorship exercised at the behest of anybody — I do not care how good his motives are — as I would be to see the same kind of thing done with the newspaper, television or radio service.

I should like very much to have the Minister's reaction. I quite recognise that he does not have responsibility for the day-to-day operation of the postal service but he does have a residual overall responsibility for it which he cannot shed. His main duties in regard to posts and telegraphs, subsumed though they be under the umbrella title of Communications, are still pretty well what they were under the 1924 Ministers and Secretaries Act. That Act, which gathered up the postal functions and transferred them to An Post a few years ago, has still left him with certain responsibilities. One of those responsibilities, one of those powers under the Act, is the power to initiate summary prosecutions for a certain range of offences. One of the offences is that of delaying or detaining a postal packet or doing anything to prevent its due delivery. The fact that there is a statutory power vested in the Minister means that he is bound to use reasonable diligence in excercising that power and making use of it. Therefore, he must take an interest in what happens in regard to the due despatch of postal business. He must take seriously, as I presume he does, the fact, even if it is only at one post office and even if it is only in regard to rotten propaganda material from Pretoria, that postal workers have taken it upon themselves to hold up even a trickle of 30 or 40 copies of a publication each month.

A Minister or a Government who do not take that issue seriously will be opening the door to far more serious and sinister abuses in the future. I do not wish to make a mountain out of a molehill, but this is not a molehill. I am amazed that nobody has seen fit to make a fuss about this matter before and that our editorial writers, who are black in the face giving out about the horrors of South Africa, about illiberality in every other walk of life, about sinister Ministers of either Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil persuasion exercising censorship on RTE, who work themselves into a frenzy of righteousness if there is the faintest whisper of criticism of themselves, let alone censorship have left this go without comment. I do not think I have seen one editorial comment on this issue. I recognise that it is the Minister's policy, and rightly so, to be on good terms with the unions represented in the concerns for which he has responsibility in the House. I support him in everything he does in that regard, but there is a point at which justifiable anxiety to maintain good relations within industrial organisations on the labour side must give way to other forms of duty.

There is a duty on the Minister to take seriously this apparently accepted idea that we can have a censorship inside the postal service operated by employees of the postal service. I am not asking the Minister to reply to this in the Dáil. The Minister has not had any notice of my raising this matter and he may want to think about it or take advice on it. I am not asking him to respond to it today if it does not suit him to do so. As a responsible and careful Minister I accept that he will take seriously this threat to one of the principal freedoms we havethe freedom to communicate with one and other, albeit in a mode not very often classified as a medium of communication.

The debate on this Estimate gives us an opportunity to express our views on a Department which has responsibility for communications, transport and other important facets of Irish life. I shall deal with the areas for which I am Opposition spokesman, post and telegraphs and broadcasting. It is vital that Telecom Éireann provide without delay details of all telephone calls made from each number. There is concern among the 750,000 subscribers about the problem of telephone accounts. In his report for 1985 the Ombudsman said he had received 1,206 complaints in relation to telephone accounts. All Members have received numerous complaints from their constituents. I have received many complaints from people in my constituency and from other areas in the country about the billing system operated by Telecom Éireann. The problem can only be resolved by the provision of detailed accounts every two months.

The Minister may say that this is not his direct responsibility but he told us in his speech:

They are also dominated by two State bodies whose financial performance is of equal importance to the taxpayers of this country who, through the Government, are their unltimate owners.

The Government are the only shareholders of Telecom Éireann and I do not think the Minister can wash his hands in regard to the policies of that organisation. He should involve himself in a more positive way in such matters. In the course of his report for 1985 the Ombudsman outlined in great detail the complaints he received regarding the accounts system. The Minister should insist on more co-operation between Telecom Éireann and the Ombudsman who is carrying out his responsibilities on behalf of the hard-pressed subscribers.

Is the Minister in a position to tell the House the progress made in regard to making private meters available to telephone subscribers? I should like to appeal to Telecom Éireann to provide such meters where accounts are in dispute. It is one way of helping people to understand how accounts are prepared. A detailed account of each call made, the date of the call and the telephone number dialled should be provided as a matter of priority.

I appeal to the Minister not to allow An Post erect special letter boxes at the head of driveways and roadways in rural areas thereby removing the daily contact between postman and those living in rural areas. In many cases the postman is the only contact people in rural areas have with the outside world from one week to the next.

As a matter of policy the Minister should instruct An Post to implement a full domestic banking system, such as proved very successful in other countries.

The Minister should provide the £3 million fund for capital development in 1986 as promised in Building on Reality. I find it difficult to understand why the Minister has not provided that money. In the annual report of An Post, up to 31 December 1985, the Chairman, Mr. Fergal Quinn, appealed to the Government to provide the £3 million for capital development. I support that call. When we were debating the Bill dealing with the setting up of Telecom Éireann in 1983 it was agreed that the Government would provide the funds for capital works such as the improvement of post offices and sorting offices. In many areas those buildings are below the standard which the public demand. When we handed over the assets of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs on 1 January 1984 some of the buildings were not in good condition and An Post have found it difficult to maintain them. Some of those historic buildings are in good locations in our principal towns. The Minister should make a case to the Government to provide £3 million for development work on those buildings.

I appeal to the Minister to look at the position in regard to the GPO. The way An Post have defaced the GPO with the erection of green banners between the fine columns of that building is most unacceptable. The building is not simply the General Post Office but it is the building that symbolises Irish republicanism because the rebellion took place there in 1916. The Department of the Environment are talking about improving the city of Dublin. As a non-Dubliner I was somewhat taken aback by the erection of these banners which have taken from the architectural character of the building. Everyone knows where the GPO is and An Post do not need the banners there. I accept this is a minor point and is not significant, but when the Minister is passing the building perhaps he would look at it. I am sure he will agree with me that the banners do nothing to enhance that fine building. With regard to the GPO, perhaps the Minister will confirm in the near future if we have purchased he ground rent of the building. When I was in the Department I was very anxious to finalise that matter. At one stage the ground rent was owned by a foreign national and I think we should at least buy it out.

I welcome the fact that the national lottery has been allocated to An Post: in fact, I lobbied for it. While Fianna Fáil as a party have objections to the National Lottery Bill, I support the principle of allowing An Post to operate the lottery. They have 2,000 offices throughout the country and, consequently, are in a position to provide the service for a national lottery. An Post should also be given responsibility for other services. For instance, they should finalise negotiations with the ESB for the collection of electricity accounts and, in conjunction with Bord Fáilte, arrangements should be made where selected offices would provide tourist information. Post offices throughout the country should have for sale a selection of tourist guides, maps and so on. The sub-post masters throughout the country would be able to provide this service. This would be appropriate and it would provide additional work for the local post offices.

With regard to local radio, it is regrettable that after three and a half years the Coalition have failed to finalise the Bill and to have it passed by the Oireachtas. On 5 July 1985 the Bill was introduced for a Second Reading but after a one-day debate the Coalition were forced to drop it because Deputy Cluskey pointed out repeatedly he could not support it. For the past 12 months nothing has been done. This is an indication of the instability of Coalition Governments, that they cannot bring forward and finalise legislation. I sympathise with the Minister on the frustration he and his Department have experienced in that they have been unable in the past few years to bring forward this Bill. At present there are more than 60 unlicensed radio stations operating in this State. They are anxious to come out of the twilight zone. They want to be registered and to make their full contribution to employment and economic recovery. On our return to Government, which is probably imminent at this stage, it will be our priority to bring forward legislation in relation to local radio. It must be implemented six months after our return to office.

It is an area of public unease. In this city and throughout the country unlicensed services are being provided. The public are responding and are listening to them and I do not think the present situation is acceptable. We should have legislation in force and licences should be issued. Jobs could be created and revenue could be raised. Our Bill would provide for the setting up of an independent local radio authority. It would provide for local independent radio to cater for community and commercial needs and would allow RTE to apply for licences in areas where they have facilities and are already established. In this connection, again I call on the Minister to give permission to RTE to extend the broadcasting hours of Cork local radio who are providing an excellent service in the Cork region. At this stage the Minister should not await the passing of the legislation for independent local radio. He should give permission to Cork local radio to extend their broadcasting hours in advance of the Bill.

We support the application by RTE for the establishment of a long wave radio broadcasting service on the frequency allocated to Ireland by international agreement. RTE are recognised throughout the world as having broadcasters, producers and technical staff of the highest quality. We need to assist them and to give them new opportunities, particularly in light of the recent reports on RTE. By providing a long wave radio service jobs could be created here and advertising revenue could be earned from abroad. In his reply to this debate, I ask the Minister to indicate the reason he has not approved the application by RTE to provide this very good service.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has five minutes left.

I do not think I am restricted in this debate.

Acting Chairman

I understand that Deputies are restricted to 20 minutes.

As one of our spokesmen I am allowed to make a reply.

Acting Chairman

According to Standing Orders, each speaker after the Minister and the spokesman for the Opposition, is allowed 20 minutes. In fact, Deputy Wilson got more than his allotted time. I do not wish to get into a dispute with the Deputy but, as I understand it, under Standing Orders he is allowed to speak for 20 minutes.

Perhaps we can work this out by agreement. I have no problem in agreeing to a little latitude being given to the Deputy.

There is no problem. This debate gives us an opportunity to put forward points to the Minister and it is my wish to be as constructive as possible. The Minister has an important area of responsibility and we should try to obtain the information we require either today or at an early stage. Is the Minister aware of the request from the entertainment profession in relation to the provision of another national radio service to provide so-called "middle of the road" music and particularly to give Irish entertainers and recording artists an opportunity to be heard on national radio? While RTE 1 and RTE 2 are providing a good service with regard to radio, on RTE 1 there is the high percentage of news and current affairs programmes and there is not the same opportunity for recording artists to be heard on that radio as they would like and RTE 2 is generally regarded as a pop station. Thus, there is a void to be filled. The Minister may say that local radio could fill this need and I agree to some extent that if local radio were in place now recording artists would have more opportunity to be heard. In advance of that perhaps the Minister could consider it. It is worthy of serious consideration that RTE use their existing radio 1 network to provide an additional service. This could be a joint development with entertainment and private enterprise. It could be a joint RTE/private enterprise development which could be very beneficial and worthwhile and would not be in direct conflict with RTE 1 or RTE 2 but probably more in conflict with other stations abroad.

I ask the Minister to consider very seriously providing Telefíts na Gaeltachta services in Gaeltacht areas and establishing a pilot scheme for such. I believe that we have the existing transmitter facilities and utilising the studios of Radio na Gaeltachta in the Gaeltacht areas, this could be a very important development. I know that a cost factor will be involved, but at least this should be examined and some departmental committee or some professionals should look at this future development.

In that regard we are still debating local radio when we should be considering the advent of independent television services. Competition is the life of trade and there is room for a totally independent television service here. Again, that should be examined fully by the Department of Communications to see if the population figures and the economics would justify the provision of an independent television service. At this stage RTE 1 and RTE 2 have a monopoly. Monopolies generally are bad and when it comes to any debate of public concern the question of impartiality will always arise. We should have an alternative to provide an alternative point of view. If there was an independent television service there would be more competition also between RTE and that independent television service to give a much sharper news and current affairs service for the public. From my examination of other countries which have numerous television services I can say that our population would justify that.

Regarding direct satellite broadcasting, we should be moving to finalise the agreement with Atlantic Satellites to operate an orbital slot located 31ºW longitude. This slot is a very useful allocation to Ireland and should be utilised fully. It would provide much needed employment, and the link with Atlantic Satellites and the Hughes Corporation would give a very strong company position. The Minister should ensure when he is finalising arrangements that RTE and Telecom Éireann are involved in the final agreement with Atlantic Satellites and that they be given opportunities of a say or involvement in the development of direct satellite broadcasting.

There is need for legislation in the area of television deflectors. We continue on the path we have taken in the past of ignoring the problem so that it may eventually go away, but in rural areas the only method for the transmission of television signals for multichannel viewing is through television deflectors. The Department regard it as rebroadcasting. This is a matter for debate, but I know that within the Department there is major objection to the provision of television deflectors. However, the Minister can bring in the legislation necessary to license the provision of television deflectors to provide multichannel viewing in rural areas. Nothing is impossible in this area, and the Minister is being restricted to some extent by information which is available in the Department and is being advised in a certain way. I advise him to get outside advice in this areas to equip him to introduce the legislation to provide multichannel viewing in rural areas.

I compliment RTE on their generally high standard of broadcasting. At times we have reason to complain and I, for one, am not totally satisfied with their conduct in the recent referendum. That is over now and the decision has been made very satisfactorily. Nevertheless, I and, I am sure, many people feel that it is difficult to provide impartiality within any broadcasting organisation. That, of course, is a human frailty which arises at times, but at this stage I appeal to the Minister to institute the necessary policy developments that I have suggested and at least introduce the Bill to provide for independent local radio. That should be his priority, but he will not be able to implement it with this Government. Nevertheless, he should as a matter of urgency regard this as a priority within his Department.

I have a few words to say on the Estimate. Over the past year the Minister has brought in a great deal of legislation and I will refer to a couple of Bills that he has brought through the House. The Road Transport Bill was legislation that was needed and had been outstanding for many years. It was necessary to update road transport legislation generally. That Bill set out to regularise and harmonise the whole road transport field. However, not only I but also the members of the Unlicensed Hauliers Association feel that they have not had a fair crack of the whip. Over the years thousands of these people have operated within the road traffic regulations regarding tax, insurance and licence in the Revenue area but have not had road traffic licences. They are in an unenviable position as regards getting licences under the new regulations. I would like the Minister to assure them that their livelihood will not be put a risk and that they will have every opportunity to get a licence under the new system. During the debate the Minister of State told us that the majority of these people, if they conform to the three conditions laid down, will be able to acquire the new licence; but the Minister should come out and make another statement on this issue. Even last night I was speaking to one of these unlicenced hauliers who was still in grave doubt about what his position will be under the new regulations. It would be a good idea if the Minister would make a further statement on this matter to alleviate the fears of many of these law-abiding people who, through no fault of their own but due to successive Governments not updating regulations, find themselves in an invidious position.

Let me refer to the Dublin Transport Authority Bill — or Act, as I presume it has been signed by the President. Initially, that Bill gave great power and teeth to the Authority, as I understood it prior to it being brought into the House, and it embodied the ideas that Deputy Wilson had put down. Since then the Minister has taken the teeth away from it and it has been watered down. That Act will not be as effective as had been supposed and it will be necessary to review and amend it. I am sorry that the Minister would not accept many of the amendments that we on this side of the House put down to that Bill because the regulation of traffic in the Dublin area is of great importance for the good running of the city and the environment.

Over the past year Irish Shipping are discussed on many occasions. The whole debacle was a disaster and a sell out of the nation which has caused great embarrassment. It has brought disgrace on us. Not only has our good name in regard to credit and business taken a hammering throughout the world, but the final cost to the Government makes me wonder if the decision to liquidate was wise. I submit that it was not. During and following the liquidation, the officers and crews of the ships were abused all over the world. The ships should have been brought back to this county prior to the liquidation. It was inhuman as well as bad judgment to allow our crews to be stranded in areas where they had no protection. This was proved by what happened to them when the ships were impounded. The blame for this must lie with the Government who made the decision.

The Minister referred to the question of providing a strategic shipping fleet. An opportunity arose for refloating the fleet which had been scuttled when the Irish Spruce was sold at an knockdown price of £3.5 million. That is a minimal sum and would have been recouped in a very short time. This is an example of the lack of business acumen prevalent in the present administration.

The provision of a ferry from Cork has been put into the hands of the local community in the southern region which, along with the south west, has suffered greatly since the ferry went out of existence a number of years ago. Tourism has been badly hit and there are very few vehicles coming from Britain to the south west region. We have more continental visitors because that link still exists. British visitors usually land at Rosslare and travel on the eastern side of the country. The Government should take a more active part in ensuring that a service will be provided in future for the south west region. It is not good enough to say that a ferry should be provided by local interests as, although the Government promised funds, they did not provide a boat which had belonged to B & I. The Government should take a more active part in ensuring that there will be a ferry service available next year from Cork to Britain.

B & I have been restructured, I wish every success to the new management and I hope that their problems have been solved. I look forward to seeing their accounts over the next couple of years. The new team are able and efficient and if they have luck and nothing goes radically wrong, they will make a success of the company. Of course some of us expressed reservations regarding the sum of £38 million given to B & I but I will not cover that ground again.

Everybody is interested in ICL and perhaps the Minister can enlighten us in regard to their future. Have B & I shown an interest? If so, I hope it is for themselves and not for another company.

In conjunction with the Minister and Deputy Wilson I should like to congratulate Aer Lingus on their 50th anniversary. They have provided a good, friendly and profitable service over the years and have been a good example to other airlines. I wish them more success in the future because, as was pointed out by the Minister, their profits at present are not sufficient to provide new planes.

Cork Airport labours under fog for a number of months during the year which has been a disadvantage to its growth. Of course it should never have been built on that site in the first place but it is there now and we must make the best of it. I am glad that the Minister and the Government agreed to provide moneys for the installation of a new ILS system at Cork which should make the airport more reliable than in the past. It should also enable it to increase business and to become more successful. However, concern has been expressed that passenger traffic through Cork has declined, especially during the March-May. Some people say that this is due to high fares between Cork and London. Aer Lingus maintain that their policy is to promote Cork Airport and that they are not downgrading it. I should like the Minister to reassure us that is the case as such a step would be detrimental to the Cork area.

The Cork region has been revaged and savaged in recent years by unemployment. The harbour development scheme at Ringaskiddy and the establishment there of a free port has a potential to make a valuable contribution to the industrial development of the southern area especially Cork. The delay in drafting regulations and in the setting up of the operating company is causing great concern. Perhaps the Minister would let us know whether it is likely that a decision will be reached in the near future. It is important that these two items be dealt with at the earliest date.

I would like to make one reference to television. Many areas have no cable television and deflectors are being used to tune into television stations from abroad. This is illegal but it is still going on and it is time that the Minister legalised the whole situation. It is bad to have an illegal system in operation as it only leads to lack of respect for the law. Is it the Minister's intention to legalise the use of deflectors? What has the Minister in mind?

As there are no other Deputies entitled to make a 20 minute contribution offering, I will now permit five minute interjections.

I would ask the Minister to consider adopting a more open approach and bring in legislation regarding the use of deflectors because, as he knows, they are used successfully and are not causing difficulty with the present RTE service and signals.

This is a difficult problem. I fully understand the aspirations of people in remote areas to have access to multichannel television just like the people in major cities and towns, particularly on the east coast. There are frequency spectrum difficulties which we are looking at and examining thoroughly with a view to finding a solution to this problem. I cannot encourage or tolerate the illegal use of deflector systems, particularly in areas where there is already a legal franchise for cable television. This has happened in one or two areas, notably in Cork. I reiterate to the House that it is my intention to rigorously enforce the law and I very much regret that political figures have got themselves involved in this illegal activity. On the question of access to multichannel services for people in remote areas, this is receiving very careful examination and we are looking at new possibilities — for example, the new system being developed in Canada at the moment which might provide a way out of this problem in the future. However, it is at a very early stage of development, so we cannot say yet; but we are exploring it.

I know An Post is not the Minister's area, but he has a responsibility in relation to policy. An Post are proposing to provide letter boxes for people away from their homes. I express the concern of the conference of the union involved as to the use of these boxes which would deprive the public, particularly in rural areas, of the services of An Post on a daily basis to their door.

That does not arise on this.

The Minister may be involved as to policy. It is a departure and the Minister should have some view on it.

These matters should be resolved within An Post between management and trade unions. Certain people do not want to face change or commerciality and conjure up a picture of the postman as some sort of social worker whose job it is to call daily to every house on his rounds. But the fact is that he does not. He only calls to those houses for which he has letters. Very often the most isolated and desolate people in the country are those who never receive any letters. So this is imagery at its worst. An Post should do what is commercially right. We have to acknowledge that our postage rates, even though there has been no increase for four years, are still too high, and we must keep searching for ways of reducing the cost of postage stamps and so on. I am not aware of any radical change proposed by An Post in this area. There are suggestions of having pilot schemes in certain areas but what is proposed for these pilot schemes is normal practice in places like Switzerland, Austria, the US and Canada. I feel it is not right for me to intervene in matters relating to An Post.

The Minister to conclude.

I would like to thank the Deputies who contributed for being so constructive and I will endeavour to answer as many questions as I can. First, I want to thank Deputy Wilson for his typically constructive contribution and for his very active co-operation in getting much of our legislation through. Seven transport Bills have gone through this House since the beginning of this year and that would not be possible if we did not have a constructive attitude from the Opposition and I am grateful for it. I hope the result of all that legislation will greatly improve the environment for transport.

The point on which Deputy Wilson chose to take issue with me was the question of Irish Shipping. That is not something that has happened in the last year or is going to happen in the current year; it is not really appropriate to an Estimates debate for this year, although there are residual items to be dealt with as was anticipated at the time of the liquidation. I want to repeat that there was simply no alternative to the course adopted and any Minister or Government in the position we found ourselves in would have had no choice except to do exactly as we did. To do otherwise would have been a folly inimicable to the overall interests of the public and the taxpayer. Of course it was a heart-breaking decision and of course there is fall-out as we anticipated at the time, and continuing difficulties to be ironed out. But it was the only decision possible. I and the Government have great sympathy with the workers of Irish Shipping. They little deserved their fate. It is a matter of great regret to me that, try as we did with enthusiasm and effort to find a way of helping out that workforce, no means have been found yet which would not carry with them enormous risks.

I fully share the views expressed by Deputy Wilson in relation to a strategic fleet. For that reason I set up the interdepartmental strategic shipping committee which reported on this. As I said on opening, it is my hope that the Government will be in a position to decide this matter before too long and that that decision will be announced in the White Paper on Transport Policy which I expect to be published by the end of the year — if the decision has not previously been announced. In respect of the need for a strategic shipping fleet, there is not disagreement between myself and Deputy Wilson.

Care will have to be applied in setting up a new fleet, so that the next time we do not allow the situation to develop which unfortunately developed and enveloped Irish Shipping Limited. I would remind the House that the problems which led to the liquidation of Irish Shipping arose many years before I became Minister. It is true to say that the Department and the Minister of the time were not aware of the decisions taken, nor were the board of Irish Shipping. That in itself is a criticism. I have sought in my three-and-a-half years to date in this Department to ensure that the State relates to the State companies appropriately and sets up a proper system of control without stifling initiative and imagination in the parent State companies, also trying to bring about competiveness and efficiency in each one.

It is regrettable that for many years the State — and in this I mean all Governments — did not properly relate to the State sector. That sector was often damned by the attitude, or sometimes lack of attitude, of the State and also by the attitude of some of the greatest adherents of the State sector who very often refused to change with the times or see the need for change if the State sector was to survive, because they see change as a bad thing. Change is often the only means of allowing the particular State enterprise to survive. It was in that context that I made my opening comments on the speech yesterday by the President of NATE. The latter was a grossly inaccurate speech and I make no apologies for referring to it an pointing out what has happened since I became Minister.

I have notes which I will take seriatim, not necessarily following the order in which the questions were raised. First, Deputy Kelly raised a point in relation to the threatened banning in the post of mail emanating from white South Africa. I know the Deputy tried to raise this matter as a Private Notice Question or on the Adjournment in the past few weeks, but this was not allowed. I understand that he gave the impression that this was because of ministerial resistence. I know nothing about such resistence and I want to assure the Deputy that I would have been very happy to have dealt with the question if it and been allowed. I agree very much with the Deputy. I am one of the strongest opponents in this House of the apartheid system. That is saying something, because there are many very strong opponents of that system here. I agree, however, with Deputy Kelly that to start banning literature from any source, whether by individuals or groups, through An Post is a very dangerous precedent. It is akin to trying to block freedom of expression, which is very basic to any democracy. No matter how much one disagrees with another's point of view, freedom of expression is essential to democracy. The suggestion is not right and it should be strongly resisted that any body or any group should feel that they had the right to block the transmission of mail through the post.

Deputy Leyden raised the question of the Local Radio Bill. This was discussed across the House at Question Time recently. I believe that the Local Radio Bill brought to the House is a good Bill which provides for a good regime of local radio. I am not saying that it is perfect, or that it cannot be improved by amendment; of course it can. I very much hope that the House will see its way to enacting that Bill in the next session. I am certainly working towards the goal of trying to persuade the House that that is the right course.

I am acutely conscious of my duties to the State and the listening audience to regulate the air waves to their advantage. I hope that we can enact three broadcasting measures in the coming session, one being the Local Radio Bill already before the House on Second Stage. The second is the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Bill already circulated in the Seanad and there will be a third Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill dealing with administrative and financial matters, among other things, in RTE arising from the SKC report. I would be very grateful for an more open and non-party political approach to that Bill, in the name of making progress.

I want to repeat what I said last week at Question Time: that I will not be rushed or pushed into accepting a regime for radio which I do not believe in and which I do not think will be good. If the alternative is doing nothing, I would prefer to do nothing, with all the frustration and neglect of duty that that would entail, rather than doing something which would make the position worse.

Deputy Ahern raised the fares differential between the Cork-London and Dublin-London air routes. I can appreciate the concern of Cork interests at the existence of such a fares differential. I had this matter taken up with Aer Lingus, who indicated that the differential is in line with their costs, which are higher on Cork. I am told that the company have explained the basis for these figures to local Cork interests. In the circumstances where the yield from the Cork-London route is lower than that from the Dublin-London route because of the lower business content, there does not appear to be any significant basis for securing an across the board reduction in the fare differential between the two routes. A recent introduction by Aer Lingus of a new £95 Super Apex fare, Dublin-London only, has further widened the fares differential at the lower end of the market. I am therefore asking the company to consider introducing a similar type low fare on the Cork-London and Shannon-London routes at appropriate levels.

I compliment Deputy Leyden on his speech, in which he raised the question of direct broadcasting satellites. The position now is that negotiations have finished with Atlantic Satellites. An interdepartmental committee are examining the position and a recommendation will be made to me, I understand, in the coming weeks. Then the Government should be in a position to make a decision, it is hoped during the course of the summer. The Deputy also referred to substandard post office premises and I could not agree more with him. There is provision in the legislation which would allow the Exchequer to provide up to £50 million to An Post. That is merely an enabling provision. It is a feature of semi-State company legislation. It does not mean that the Government are giving the money to them, although An Post have managed to give the impression that it was a promise of £50 million. That is not so.

It is mentioned in Building on Reality.

An Post have very little debts. They have a superb debt equity ratio. They are well able to borrow to look after themselves. Why should they be a burden on the taxpayer? The service should be a commercial one which pays for itself. There is an extensive capital programme to up-date these requirements.

What about Building on Reality? It is mentioned there.

I hope that An Post will rectify all its buildings and will have them brought up to scratch in the next few years.

Deputy Leyden mentioned telephone billing. There is a lot of progress being made in this area. Telecom Éireann will be spending about £20 million on installing equipment at exchanges over the next year or so to allow for detailed billing on request. It is a very big price to pay but because of all the complaints about billing over the period it has been decided to instal this equipment. Over the past number of years we have done extensive tests on billing methods, as distinct from the Billings method. We have had it investigated by international consultants who are expert in this area. Our system is as reliable as any other. Our telephone charges are too high and that is why people complain about their bills. They are high because of the huge investment in the telecommunications system over the past number of years.

Now that the major investment is over it should be possible in the coming years to freeze telephone prices. Some prices have been brought down this year as I mentioned in my opening speech. I hope that in future years we will be able to think in terms of reducing telephone charges as An Post moves into profit which I confidently expect them to do in the next year, a couple of years ahead of schedule. Things are going relatively well in Telecom Éireann. They have a huge debt. There is no room for complacency. There is more to be done in terms of the level of connections, the speed of repairs and so on. Steady progress is being made. Just like our postal charges which have been stabilised for four years, they are still too high. I hope that they can be reduced. I am sorry that I have no time to reply to all the points made, but I will undertake to write to Deputies to answer the questions which they raised in the course of the debate.

Can I ask the Minister about the date for the Dublin Transport Authority and about ICL, two very serious questions which I raised.

I will be aiming to set up the Dublin Transportation Authority on 1 September. The position with regard to ICL, as I understand it, is that a number of people are interested in purchasing but there are difficulties there because of tax-based leasing. As the Deputy knows, I am not responsible for ICL. It is a matter for the liquidator. The House can be assured that I am keeping a very close interest in the matter.

Question put, and a division being demanded, it was postponed in accordance with Standing Order of the Dáil No. 123, as modified by order of the House, until 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 2 July 1986.
The Dáil adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 1 July 1986.
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