asked the Minister for Justice the cost involved in implementing his proposals to place female prisoners in the new unit built for maladjusted young persons at the Central Mental Hospital, Dundrum; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Female Prisoners' Accommodation.
28.
I refer the Deputy to my reply to Question No. 416 on 22 October.
The staffing and operational costs involved in operating the new unit would largely be similar to the cost of operating the existing facility for women prisoners at Mountjoy. The precise regime for the new unit has not yet been finalised pending the unit's transfer to my Department and this may have some impact on the overall operating cost of the unit. The cost of providing a wall and ancillary works to separate the unit from the main hospital buildings is estimated to be of the order of £325,000. Some further minor internal works may be necessary to make the unit suitable for its envisaged use but these can only be finalised and costed when the unit is handed over to my Department.
What is the total cost of the unit? The Minister told us the wall will cost £325,000. This seems like maximum security for women offenders, 80 per cent of whom are non-violent according to studies which have been carried out. Why is it necessary to provide maximum security conditions in the first instance?
The cost of building the new unit was approximately £2.6 million and the cost of the wall and ancillary works would be in the region of £325,000. I want to make it clear to the Deputy and to the House that we are not talking about a maximum security unit. I believe it would be highly desirable that we bring about a separation between this unit and the Central Mental Hospital for a number of reasons.
Would one of the reasons be the security of the women offenders because this unit is in the grounds of the Central Mental Hospital? Does the Minister intend to have female offenders in that unit who are not psychiatric patients? The Minister nods, yes.
No. I am afraid the Deputy is more than a little confused. Having started with the proposition that building a wall suggests that this is a maximum security unit he has now come round to the view that the wall might be required for the security of the female offenders. The wall between this unit and the Central Mental Hospital would be desirable precisely to bring about a situation where this unit could not be described as being in the grounds of the Central Mental Hospital.
The Minister is playing on words. Nobody can doubt that this unit is in the grounds of the Central Mental Hospital and the reason for building the wall is not to keep three female offenders in——
That is what the Deputy said.
——but to keep somebody else out. May I draw the Minister's attention to the report of the Whitaker committee, another report which is gathering dust. The Minister may say that this report is being considered but it is a long time since that report was published and yet nothing has happened. I realise the Minister has been in that Department for only a short time, but that report clearly indicates that what we need for female offenders are more open prisons without very big walls costing £325,000 and for a very low cost the Minister could provide these facilities. Does the Minister really believe this will work?
This is more like a speech.
Has the Minister got the agreement of the health board to go ahead with this?
The Deputy knows perfectly well that the health board have not finally agreed to this. To the extent that the Deputy or any of his colleagues have any influence in the matter, I would urge them to use it in favour of allowing this unit to be taken over by my Department. We are not talking about a maximum security unit here. For a number of reasons — with which I think the Deputy will be familiar — it would be desirable to separate this unit from the Central Mental Hospital. The House will also be aware from previous discussions on the matter that there is a need for a unit that would allow us to provide a better level of facility and treatment for female offenders who have particular medical problems. That is the reason I am working on bringing this unit into operation in the prison service. With regard to the suggestion by the Whitaker committee that it would be desirable to have an open unit for female offenders, the Deputy must be aware — and the House should take account of the fact — that we have a very small number of female offenders in our system. I am happy to say that is the case. However, that brings the attendant difficulty, that because of the very smallness of the number of female offenders it is difficult, except in the case about which we are speaking here, to provide totally separated facilities of the kind the Deputy seems to have in mind.