Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Dec 1986

Vol. 370 No. 11

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 21, 10, 1 and 22. By agreement, the Dáil shall sit later than 5.30 p.m. today and not later than 10.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted at 10 p.m. Also by agreement, the Dáil shall be suspended between 1.30 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. today. Also by agreement, the proceedings on the remaining stages of No. 21 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 11.30 a.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only amendments set down by the Minister for Agriculture.

Also by agreement, No. 10 shall be taken without debate. Also by agreement, the proceedings on all stages of No. 1 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 1.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only amendments set down by the Minister for the Environment. Also by agreement, the proceedings on the remaining stages of No. 22 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 10 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only amendments set down by the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Also by agreement, the Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow and shall adjourn not later than 5 p.m. tomorrow.

Mr. Kelly

May I give notice of my intention to raise on the Adjournment the matter of the reform of the law bearing on the rights of buried objects of archaeological value?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy. Are the various arrangements which I have read out agreed to?

Mr. Haughey

I was about to ask the Taoiseach if his attention had been drawn to the incomprehensible and worrying judgment handed down by the High Court in the case of the Derrynaflan chalice and if he will confirm to the House that it is the Government's intention to appeal this incomprehensible decision to the Supreme Court? Furthermore——

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise in this way. Furthermore, I do not think it is in order to refer to a judgment of one of the courts set up under the Constitution as incomprehensible.

Mr. Haughey

It is perfectly in order. This is the only place it can be done.

An Ceann Comhairle

It cannot be done impromptu. I would ask Deputy Haughey to reflect on the matter. I want to clear up the matter because if we get to the stage where if one Deputy stands up and does it without reservation every other Deputy will be entitled to stand up and make disparaging remarks about judgments of the courts and about the courts and in that way will reduce greatly the standing and respect in which the courts are and should be held. That in the Chair's opinion is certainly not good either for the courts or, more importantly, for the people.

Mr. Haughey

I respectfully submit that it is perfectly in order and legitimate in this House to criticise decisions of the courts. In fact, this House is the only place in which that can be done. Furthermore, we have had a procedure in this House where a certain decision of the courts during the last few years was debated in this House and the decision of the particular judge was severely criticised by Members of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

We will keep this cool but I want to be firm about it. In the Chair's recollection the judgment Deputy Haughey spoke about was debated by way of orderly statements. There is a well defined procedure for criticising or disagreeing with judges or the decisions of judges and that is by way of substantive motion.

Mr. Haughey

I have neither disagreed nor criticised but indicated that in my view it is incomprehensible. I suggest that is the view of the vast majority of Deputies. I merely wish to ask the Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle

In the Chair's opinion the word "incomprehensible" and the way it was introduced might be taken as an impromptu attack on the Chair.

Mr. Haughey

I know you know that I often find your rulings incomprehensible but that does not in any way detract from my admiration for the way in which you conduct the affairs of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a slight difference.

Mr. Haughey

Please let me proceed. I just want to ask the Taoiseach a simple question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will in a minute. The Chair can be hired and fired by a simple majority but the Constitution lays down that judges are appointed for life and can only be removed in a formal way by a special procedure in this House. I appeal to Deputies to respect the courts. If they are brought into ridicule in this House we would be going down a very slippery slope which would not be good for anyone, particularly the poor.

Mr. Kelly

On a point of order——

Mr. Haughey

You know perfectly well that this House is the last bastion of the liberty of the citizen. There was an instance when this House felt it necessary to criticise the decision of the judge in a certain case. I am not doing that. It was never my practice to denigrate the dignity or importance of the courts. It was — I use the word advisedly — an incomprehensible decision.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise in this way.

Mr. Haughey

I want to ask the Taoiseach to confirm to the House that the Government intend to appeal this decision to the Supreme Court. Does he agree that it underlines the necessity for urgent legislation to deal with this area of our affairs?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise in this way.

Mr. Kelly

On a point of order, I wish to add a few words to this.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not have a discussion on it, learned or otherwise.

Mr. Kelly

This is a point of order. I am inviting the Chair to give the House a ruling on what he would see as a distinction between criticising a judgment — and I agree with everything that was said——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kelly, please resume your seat.

Mr. Kelly

I am drawing attention to a defect in the law which this judgment may have thrown up.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise in this way.

Mr. Kelly

We will have to decide sooner or later where the limits of sub judice and the limits of this rule lie because this is the only place where the law can be changed. When we get a judgment — it may not be the judge's fault — which does not seem to make any sense this is the only place——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kelly is one of the few people in this House best qualified to frame a motion and bring it before the House.

Mr. Kelly

I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not give a decision on that. Deputy Kelly spoke about sub judice. If he wants the law changed in that regard as it applies to this House he should draft a resolution and bring it before the House.

Mr. Kelly

It is not a matter of drafting a resolution but of this House's perception of its own rules.

Mr. M. Brennan

Is the Minister for Communications aware that CIE are taking off the night mail train to Sligo?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Haughey

It is an incomprehensible decision.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. M. Brennan

I see this as downgrading the Sligo-Dublin line and I wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Kitt

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the decision of the Irish Sugar Company to lay off workers at the Tuam plant.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Proinsias De Rossa

Does the Taoiseach propose to introduce the Bill dealing with homeless persons next week? That would be the last opportunity we would have to deal with this matter before the recess.

The Taoiseach

If there is time available we would wish to take it.

Proinsias De Rossa

I appreciate that time is now short. I know that the Taoiseach is as concerned about this matter as we are and surely time could be found to deal with the Committee Stage of the Bill next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy asked a question and received an answer.

Mr. O'Malley

Is it intended to take the Committee Stage of the Courts Bill, in respect of which amendments were circulated, in the last few days before the Christmas recess?

The Taoiseach

It is a matter for the Whips as to what can be taken before the Christmas recess.

Mr. Haughey

Is the Taoiseach in a position to give any information about the related matters of the publication of the Book of Estimates and the date of the budget?

The Taoiseach

The Book of Estimates is in course of preparation and will be published as soon as we can do so. The date of the budget is normally determined and announced at the end of the Dáil session.

Proinsias De Rossa

Surely the Taoiseach has a right to say what will be dealt with next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy does not have a right to argue about what will and will not be taken.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am not arguing but seeking clarification. Surely the Taoiseach has a right to say the Bill will be dealt with next week and that the Whips will arrange that.

The Taoiseach

The business of the House is normally arranged by agreement. We endeavour to reach agreement if at all possible. It is only in very unusual circumstances that agreement is not reached and the Government seek to impose an order which is not acceptable to the Opposition. We endeavour to do business by agreement where possible.

Proinsias De Rossa

If the Fianna Fáil Whip agrees to this Bill being taken next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not the place to raise this.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is the place.