Vol. 370 No. 14
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason she proposes to remove the free electricity allowance and television licence from any couple who now qualify and where one spouse is not a dependant under the equality treatment legislation; if she will reverse this decision; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
13.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if she will confirm that existing pensioners will not be deprived of benefits such as free television licences and free telephone rental, arising from the implementation of the EC Equality Directive, and that these benefits will be applied to other pensioners according as they satisfy the terms of the relevant schemes as operated heretofore.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 and 13 together.
No person at present in receipt of free electricity allowance, free television licence or free telephone rental will be deprived of those allowances as a result of the new dependency arrangements which came into force in the week commencing 17 November, 1986 and it is quite wrong to suggest that any decision was made to do so.
Entitlement to free electricity allowance and free television licence is subject to the condition that the pensioner be living alone or only with certain categories of person. Under these arrangements hitherto, a married man who was living with his wife automatically qualified for an allowance, whereas a married woman pensioner living with her non-pensioner husband was only entitled to the allowance if the husband was invalided. In future entitlement to these allowances will be subject to the revised dependency conditions which now apply in the social welfare system generally. This means that men and women will have an equal right to claim these allowances in future.
Entitlement to the free telephone rental allowance is not affected by the revised definition of dependency. The qualifying conditions for this allowance require that the pensioner must either be living entirely alone or with a child under age 15 or an incapacitated person.
Do I take it from the Minister that where, say, a man has an old age pension and is entitled to free electricity allowance, if his wife is working, is in receipt of an income or of a disability benefit, he will still qualify for the free electricity allowance?
Yes, if those conditions applied before 17 November. There is no change for anybody.
After 17 November will there be a change?
As I said in my reply, part of which I might re-read:
In future entitlement to these allowances will be subject to the revised dependency conditions which now apply in the social welfare system generally. This means that men and women will have an equal right to claim these allowances in future.
Therefore, if a person had a free electricity and television licence allowance before 17 November we will not change that position in respect of them. New applicants will be treated under the new regulations.
In other words, new applicants will have a different set of criteria applied to them. In circumstances where, previous to 17 November they would have received free electricity, now — irrespective of the hardship and, say, the low income of their spouse — they will not be in a position to claim free electricity. I would ask the Minister to review that position, ensuring that people will continue to receive this benefit in the same way as they did before.
All of those applicants who received these benefits before 17 November will not have them changed. I made that clear. The Deputy seemed to imply in his question that I had made some decision he was asking me to change. No decision was made to change the existing conditions for people entitled to those benefits. There will be — along with every other new applicant — a change to the new system. If they are not living with a dependant, or have other earnings or income, that changes the situation.
The Minister is contradicting herself. On the one hand she says there is no change in the criteria. Then she says there is a change for those who apply after 17 November. While I take the Minister's word that there will not be any change applicable to persons who were in receipt of free electricity up to 17 November I am now asking her if she will reverse her decision and apply a change to those who make application after 17 November to ensure that there will not be further hardship created for people already on the bread line?
I do not accept that the new arrangements will create hardship for people because we are talking about new applicants who did not have these entitlements. I might repeat that people who had these entitlements prior to 17 November will not be affected. The Deputy must accept that it would be both impractical and illogical to continue to operate these schemes quite separately from the rest of the equality legislation, rendering one set of women less equal than another.
The Minister must be aware that the position that will prevail henceforth will discriminate against people who would be entitled to the allowance. They will argue the case that, before 17 November, people in similar circumstances qualified for the allowance Therefore this will lead to further discontent and indeed anomalies in the social welfare system, anomalies that we are endeavouring to eliminate. Can the Minister give us any undertaking that henceforth the same system will apply whether one applies after 17 November or one qualified before that date?
No, I am afraid I could not give the Deputy that assurance. If the Deputy is suggesting that we should now change the system so that people who were in receipt of these allowances before 17 November should have them taken from them——
I never said any such thing.
That is what the Deputy is implying, that we are discriminating against new applicants by allowing previous applicants to still have the allowances. Surely the Deputy is not suggesting that we should take it away from previous applicants?
I never said any such thing.
Deputy Wyse has been sitting awaiting his question for the past hour and he is entitled to have it disposed of.
The Minister is creating confusion——
The Deputy can raise the matter in some other manner.
No, it is the Deputy who is trying to create confusion.
Would the Minister examine the situation and change it?
I have allowed sufficient supplementaries. I am calling Question No. 12.
