Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 May 1987

Vol. 372 No. 8

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take items Nos. 6, 7, 8 and 9. It is also proposed that the proceedings on No. 6 shall be interrupted not later than 1.30 p.m.

It is further proposed that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, 55 minutes shall be set aside immediately after the Order of Business for statements on the incident at Emyvale on Tuesday, 12 May 1987, and the following arrangements shall apply:

(1) The Minister for Justice shall be called on to make an opening statement which shall not exceed ten minutes and shall be called on to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes.

(2) The statements of the spokespersons for the parties in Opposition shall not exceed ten minutes in each case.

(3) No Member other than the Minister for Justice shall make more than one statement.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 15.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Order of Business agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Spring

As I indicated yesterday on the Order of Business, I gave notice that I intended to raise this morning in accordance with Standing Order 30 the request to move the Adjournment of this House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter of public interest which requires our consideration. I would like to inform the House of the motion I submitted to you, which I believe is in accordance with Standing Order 30, and which reads as follows:

That this House believes that essential health services are now at serious risk, to such an extent that a total collapse of vital services to the sick and elderly cannot be ruled out. This House views with concern the arbitrary decisions which are being imposed by the Government on health boards and other agencies by the size of their financial allocations and believes that these decisions cannot be sustained without serious danger to the health and wellbeing of our citizens. Accordingly, this House calls on the Government to take the following steps immediately:

(a) to review the financial allocations for health boards and other agencies, to ensure that they have enough resources in 1987 to maintain services and employment at their present levels;

(b) to bring forward a rational plan for the control of health expenditure over a period of years, consistent with the objective of maintaining services and protecting employment;

(c) to enter into discussions with all interested groups with a view to the implementation of such a plan;

(d) to rescind the iniquitous charges for basic services which bear most heavily on those who can least afford to pay.

That is the motion I served on you yesterday and I am now asking if the Taoiseach will comply with my request and give time in this House, either late this evening or tommorrow, so that this motion can be discussed.

Mr. Allen

I also wrote to you asking for time for an emergency debate because of the deepening crisis in the health services which is leading to thousands of jobs being lost, ward and hospital closures, driving out of our psychiatric hospitals some of the long term patients, and the possibility of a series of suicides — and I got that information from a number of people in senior positions in the psychiatric services. I am also asking you to accede to my request——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. I received notice of these matters from Deputy Spring and Deputy Allen in accordance with the terms of Standing Order 30. I have considered them in the light of the criteria which the informal committee on Dáil reform and procedures recommended and which are being followed by the Chair. One of the criteria is that the matter must be one which has arisen suddenly. The 1987 Exchequer provision for non-capital expenditure on the health services was announced in the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance on 31 March last and the health boards were notified of their allocations on 2 April last. In the circumstances, I find the matters raised do not comply with the aforementioned criterion. Accordingly, the motions are not in my view ones contemplated by the Standing Order in question.

Mr. Spring

I do not want to question your ruling but one area where I differ from you is that I consider the implications of the Budget Statement of the allocations to the health boards are only now becoming known. This must be obvious to every Member of this House because it is obvious to every member of the public since approximately 3,500 jobs are about to be lost in the health area. In compliance with your ruling, Sir, which I have to accept, I again ask the Taoiseach if he will make time available either late this evening or tomorrow because this is a matter that should be discussed in this House. I am aware the Taoiseach may have his own problems later this morning, but I believe this House should discuss these matters which are fundamental to the preservation of our health services. I formally ask the Taoiseach if he will make time available to discuss the provision of health services to our people.

Mr. Allen

I want to protest at your decision. The thousands of workers in the health services who are losing their jobs will think your decision a very strange one and I believe it will give the impression in the country that this House is becoming irrelevant. I ask the Taoiseach not to hide behind his office, or behind your decision, and to allow Government time to discuss this ever deepening crisis. The implications of the Budget Statement are only now becoming apparent, as Deputy Spring said.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are other methods open to the Deputies to pursue such matters and Deputies must be aware of that.

Mr. Farrelly

In connection with your reply about the health boards being informed of the budget allocation on 2 April, every second or third day new telex messages are being sent from the Department telling health boards of furthere cuts. That is what we are objecting to.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, but I cannot allow a debate to develop.

Mr. Farrelly

The North Eastern Health Board are in dire straits.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Quinn.

Mr. Farrelly

I want to ask if the Minister, Deputy O'Hanlon, will tell us how much——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not proceed in this way. He may not make a speech at this stage. He must resume his seat. I am calling Deputy Quinn.

Mr. Quinn

Having regard to the reference you have just made to the other channels open to Deputies to raise matters of concern, I wish, with your permission, to raise on the Adjournment this evening the imminent closure of Baggot Street Hospital, which was not indicated in the Estimates, in the budget speech or in any of the communications the hospital administration received until a few days ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Desmond

On a point of order, how can you reconcile your ruling with the latest information made available yesterday afternoon by the Minister for Finance that he proposes to waive £7.7 million of health contributions due from farmers?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to pursue that matter at another time.

Mr. Desmond

With respect, this is a vital matter because if that money was collected by the Government it would ensure——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Desmond must resume his seat.

Mr. Desmond

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not hold up the proceedings of the House by what may transpire to be a spurious point of order.

Mr. Desmond

The reason for your refusal to accept the Labour Party motion was that the Exchequer financial returns were available to the House and that it was not a matter for——

An Ceann Comhairle

The basis of my refusal was that the matter had not arisen suddenly.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow this to continue. Deputy Desmond will resume his seat. He may disagree with my ruling but he must accept it until it is set aside by the appropriate methods in this House. I call on you again to resume your seat.

Mr. Desmond

Your ruling is outrageous.

Mr. Allen

I appeal to the Taoiseach to allow Government time to debate the health cuts. It is shameful that the Taoiseach should sit silent in view of the destruction of the health services over the past few weeks.

(Interruptions.)

Mrs. Doyle

In view of your reply to another Deputy, I wish to repeat my request of yesterday that you allow me to raise on the Adjournment the imminent closure of the 112-bed hospital at Brownswood, County Wexford, and the closure of 30 beds at Wexford General Hospital.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): On a point of order, ten or possibly 12 Deputies raised the question of closures yesterday and said they wished to discuss them on the Adjournment. You ruled them all out of order on the basis that the matter had already been dealt with by the Minister when he last replied. What is the point in accepting further——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought the Deputy was raising a point of order. He is challenging my ruling.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): I am seeking clarification. When the Taoiseach refused to allow Government time to discuss this matter you said that Deputies had other means of raising the issue. The immediate means of raising any matter is on the Adjournment but your decision of yesterday has ruled that out——

Mr. Quinn

There must be a better way.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Since I have sat in this Chair there has been a matter on the Adjournment every day on which the Dáil sat. I can only choose one subject matter to be debated. That is my prerogative——

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): The point of order I seek to raise is that yesterday's decision has ruled out all possibility of discussing health cuts on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are many ways of raising matters in this House.

Mr. Howlin

I wish to pursue this matter with the Taoiseach who sits there silent while Deputy after Deputy wishes to discuss hospital closures. On 19 November last the present Minister for Health——

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow a debate to develop.

Mr. McGinley

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the drastic reduction in the allocation in this year's budget to youth and sporting organisations, particularly the announcement yesterday that the proceeds from the national lottery intended for these organisations has been reduced from 55 per cent to 45 per cent.

Mr. Durkan

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the serious curtailment of the health services provided by the Eastern Health Board.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Barry

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the disgraceful performance of some members of Clare County Council at their meeting on Monday.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Stagg

In view of your ruling and the silence of the Taoiseach and the Minister I wish to raise on the Adjournment the fact that the Eastern Health Board, because of the reduction in their allocation, have removed transport services for patients in a rural area in Kildare——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with Deputy Stagg. He may not proceed to develop his point now.

Mr. Sheehan

I wish to raise on the adjournment the serious position that has arisen in Bantry County Hospital because 35 beds have been closed and staff laid off. I also wish to raise the position of the hospital in Clonakilty.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Miss Flaherty

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the proposal to curtail all developmental check-ups and school medical examinations for children in the Eastern Health Board area as a direct result of the cutbacks. I also wish to raise the total inadequacy of the provision for the anti-AIDS programme in major hospitals in Dublin.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Taylor

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the matter of the use of facilities for the care of the mentally handicapped at Cheeverstown, Templeogue, Dublin.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. D. O'Malley

It is perfectly evident from all we have heard here this morning, yesterday and last week, that it is vital there should be a proper structured debate on all these questions. I ask the Taoiseach to agree to this as Taoisigh have agreed to debate matters which were of far less importance and urgency that this. We could have a debate for four or five hours or for whatever time is necessary. It is a perfectly reasonable request so that a whole series of Deputies will not have to put forward individual——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Mr. Shatter

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the closure of the unit in the Rotunda Hospital which seeks to assist children who have been the victims of sexual abuse.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Allen

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the imminent closure of the North Infirmary, Cork.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. McCartan

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the closure of the northside literacy programme which catered for 100 students and 36 voluntary tutors, by reason of the paltry allocation of £14,000 to the whole of Dublin city for adult education programmes.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Griffin

Last Wednesday on the debate on the Adjournment the Minister of State indicated that senior officials of his Department would evaluate proposals put forward by the health boards. Can the Minister or the Minister of State say when those evaluations will take place and when we will know the outcome?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to raise that matter at another time.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I wish to raise a point of order which seems to affect the fundamental democratic rights of all Deputies in the House. I put down a question to the Minister for Finance asking whether he had agreed that a reduction in the VAT refund to farmers from 2.4 per cent to 1.7 per cent should be for one year only and you replied to me this morning on the basis——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Keeffe, rulings of the Chair may not be challenged in this fashion.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I am not challenging——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has had an explanation from me in respect of the questions disallowed. If he wishes to have further elaboration, clarification or elucidation on the matter my office and I will be pleased to assist him but he may not raise the matter now.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Keeffe, please resume your seat.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

On a further point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has risen on a number of occasions.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

On a further point of order, I accept I am not entitled to challenge your rulings in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are ways and means of challenging the Chair's rulings and you may avail of those opportunities.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I am not challenging the ruling of the Chair but I have been a Deputy for ten years and I say that I am entitled to raise with you a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the Deputy doing if he is not challenging the ruling of the Chair?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The point of order that I want to raise is when a question, a question which goes to my fundamental rights, is disallowed by you——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid that the Deputy will have to find some other ways or means of disputing this issue.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I am not disputing it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not argue with me. I will not be argued with on these subjects.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Will you allow me to make the point——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point and I have replied to him that if he wants any further education on the matter my office will be glad to assist him but he may not challenge my ruling now.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Keeffe, please resume your seat. Deputy Spring.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

A Cheann Comhairle, allow me to make a point.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is quite clear that the Deputy is being disorderly.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I have been a Deputy in this House for ten years and I have never been accused of being disorderly.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Keeffe has consistently refused to obey the Chair. That is unruly conduct.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

That is not correct.

Mr. Spring

A Cheann Comhairle, I am reluctantly accepting your ruling in relation to my motion for today. I regret that the Taoiseach chooses to remain silent despite the enormity of the crisis in the health services. On that basis, I have to tell you that I am rejecting the Order of Business for today. I believe this matter is far more important than anything else on the Order of Business.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

For the fourth time I seek your permission to raise on the Adjournment the serious situation that arises in Clare with the proposal to close three district hospitals or Ennis General Hospital and the Caharcalla Maternity Hospital and to reduce the number of geriatric beds at St. Joseph's Hospital by 74.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Dukes

Fianna Fáil put down a motion on that.

Mr. T. Fitzpatrick

It is quite clear that the health services in the country are in a state of crisis. That is apparent not alone here morning after morning but also from television and radio reports. Would the Taoiseach consider allowing time, anything up to a day, for a proper orderly debate in order to dispose of this matter rather than having up to 20 requests morning after morning — which you cannot prevent, Sir — for permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment? Would the Taoiseach seriously consider this request during the day or even now and grant such a debate so as to have the matter dealt with in a proper and orderly way?

Mr. Shatter

On the Order of Business, considering the much publicised occasion when the Taoiseach and Colonel Ghadaffi met in a tent, having regard to their friendship and considering the written reply I received from the Minister for Foreign Affairs to a Dáil question could I ask the Taoiseach to make a statement as to why the Government have failed to protest to the Libyan Government at that Government's proposal to open offices for the IRA?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wishes, he can raise that matter at another time.

Mr. Shatter

Has the Taoiseach nothing to say?

Mr. Desmond

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the announcement by the Minister for Finance that in respect of 1985 and 1986 he proposes to raise £7.7 million in health contributions from the farming community.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with Deputy Desmond in respect of that matter.

Miss Flaherty

May I ask the Minister for the Environment when he will be in a position to announce the groups who have been lucky enough to have been selected for amenity and community grants?

An Ceann Comhairle

That hardly arises on the Order of Business.

Mr. Naughten

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the proposed closure of Roscommon County Hospital.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Desmond

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the announcement by the Minister for Health that the £10 in-patient charge and the £10 out-patient charge are being introduced from Monday.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Desmond

I wish to raise it on the basis that there is no announcement of any parallel scheme to date——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not elaborate on that matter now. I am moving on——

Mr. Desmond

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have heard a good number of Deputies this morning on the Order of Business. I am now going to hear Deputy Harte and I propose to proceed to deal with the Order of Business after hearing the Deputy.

Mr. Harte

On a point of order, I sought your permission to raise on the Adjournment the alarming statement which was made by a senior official in the Department of Health and I was told that the Minister had no function in the matter. When does the Minister have a function in regard to an alarming statement which is made by a senior official in his Department?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Harte

I am asking for your guidance as to when——

An Ceann Comhairle

Anyway it is not a function of the Chair.

Mr. Shatter

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter, I distinctly said that after hearing Deputy Harte I would proceed to deal with the Order of Business. I am now doing that.

Dr. FitzGerlad

On what basis are you refusing to hear the Deputy before the Order of Business is concluded? That is without precedent in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Because, as I said, I have heard a good number of Members this morning.

Dr. FitzGerald

Under what Standing Order are you ruling out the right of a Deputy to raise a matter at this stage?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the grounds that I have dealt for some time with hearing questions from Deputies on the Order of Business and that at some stage one must move on.

Dr. FitzGerald

No, Sir. No Standing Order says that you are entitled to rule out a Deputy at this stage. You should discuss the Standing Order before you abuse your authority in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Next business, statement by the Minister——

Dr. FitzGerald

A Cheann Comhairle, individual Deputies have rights in this House. Your job is to protect Deputies' rights and not to ride roughshod over them. Will you now protect Deputy Shatter's rights?

An Ceann Comhairle

How can Deputy FitzGerald suggest the Chair is riding roughshod over Deputies having regard to the number of Deputies I have heard here this morning?

(Interruptions.)

Dr. FitzGerald

Deputy Shatter's rights are not being protected.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter has risen on a number of occasions this morning but in deference to the wishes of Deputy FitzGerald I will hear him.

Mr. Shatter

In the light of the Taoiseach's failure to respond to the matter I raised with regard to the proposal of the Libyan Government to open offices for the IRA and in the light of the Taoiseach's and the Government's failure to protest I wish to raise that matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.