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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 May 1987

Vol. 372 No. 8

Defence (Amendment) Bill, 1986: Committee (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.

I move amendment No. 1:

1. In page 8, between lines 4 and 5, to insert the following subsection:

"(3) (a) Notwithstanding current practice, no officer shall be admonished except in the presence of two superior Officers and such admonishment shall not be recorded on the Officer's file for longer than 5 years.

(b) In a case of admonishment a defendant shall have the right of reply and representation, if he so wishes.".

The Progressive Democrats feel that the Bill should deal with the question of the admonishment of officers. There are occasions when an officer, considered to have committed a breach of discipline or some neglect, is deserving of trial by court martial by way of summary proceedings. In such a case the practice is to have him formally admonished by his superior officer. That is a source of injustice and a procedure of doubtful legality because in practice it amounts to imposing a punishment without the safeguards inherent in a more formal trial. As long as the practice is permitted in this form there is always the possibility that a superior may be tempted in cases where the publicity of a trial would be unwelcome or where the proof to sustain a charge is not sufficient to punish an officer by this means. The record of the admonishment is placed on the officer's file and there it remains forever like a time bomb. It is possible that an admonishment for some indiscretion committed as a young lieutenant may be decisive in denying that officer's promotion to a senior appointment in 20 years time. The Progressive Democrats believe this procedure should be revised so as to make provision for safeguarding against possible injustice. The record of admonishment or reproof should be given a life of not more than five years.

Limerick West): We will deal with the amendment although strictly speaking it does not come within the scope of this section. Admonishment is not provided for in the Act. It is prescribed in paragraph 97 (a) of the Defence Force Regulations A.7 for misconduct or negligence for which the officer concerned has submitted no satisfactory explanation. When an officer is to be admonished the Adjutant General must first be notified of the circumstances of the case and he may direct that the admonishment be recorded on the officer's record sheet. Any arrangements such as is contemplated in the amendment would be appropriate for consideration in the context of the Defence Force Regulations. It would not be appropriate to include such a provision in the Defence Act. Nevertheless I want to assure the Deputy at this stage that I will have the proposals inherent in his amendment examined and I give him a commitment that I will let him know the outcome. It is not appropriate to have this amendment included in this legislation or in the Defence Act but it can be prescribed in the Defence Force Regulations. I will have the contents of what is contemplated in the amendment examined in the context of the Defence Force Regulations but not in the Act.

It is important to remember that admonishment may or may not be recorded at the discretion of the Adjutant-General. Where an admonishment is recorded, an officer may, of course, by his subsequent service and conduct neutralise any effect such a recording may have on his promotion prospects. I would like to again remind the Deputy and the House that it is open to any officer who thinks himself wronged, either in relation to the giving of the admonishment or the recording of it, to submit an application to the Minister for redress of wrongs under section 114 of the Defence Act. I referred to this this morning when we discussed the redress of wrongs under section 3. I explained fully that any officer or NCO has direct access to the Minister who can redress any wrongs. The Minister is obliged to inquire into the complaint and to give his direction on it.

I welcome the Progressive Democrats' intervention into this discussion. We missed them badly this morning. Apparently they missed the beginning of the debate.

I wonder if the Minister would consider two factors in relation to section 4(b)(8) of the Bill. Firstly, the notion of dismissal with ignominy from the Defence Forces is something he should not at this point consider dropping entirely as a concept.

I am sorry to interrupt you Deputy. Normally we are expected to dispense with the amendment and then we discuss the section generally. Is Deputy Clohessy happy about the assurance given by the Minister?

I find it difficult to accept the answer given by the Minister because admonishment on a record is a very old concept; it has been there since before the foundation of the State. Present-day officers are entitled to better treatment than having black marks on their records for years which may interfere with their promotion prospects. I would be grateful if the Minister would accept our amendment in relation to this because it is not asking too much of him.

(Limerick West): This amendment is not appropriate to the Act but it is very appropriate to the regulations. I have given a commitment to the Deputy that I am prepared to have this examined under the regulations. When the proposal inherent in the amendment has been examined I will get in touch with the Deputy and let him know the outcome.

I would like to ask the Minister how he has come to the conclusion that the proposed amendment is not appropriate to be included in the Act and that it should only be included in regulations the Minister may make. Surely it is this House who determine whether a matter is appropriate to be included in the Act? If it is the wish of the House to include this amendment in order to give a safeguard against the type of situation arising, as mentioned by Deputy Clohessy, then surely this House is the appropriate authority to decide whether it should be included in the Act? I cannot understand how the Minister could rise and base his case about the amendment — I am not too sure whether he is for or against it — on the sole plea that it is not appropriate to have it included in the Act. If the House decides that this amendment should be included in the Act, then it can be made. Those of us who have had experience in this Department know the effect admonishments of this kind can have on the future promotion and career prospects of officers. Personal files are kept on each member of the officer corps in the Army and when promotions are under consideration every single detail on those files is taken into consideration. It is true that an indiscretion carried out when an officer is young remains on his file. When it is a close call between two people 15 or 20 years later for a promotion a matter such as this should be deemed irrelevant but it is often taken into consideration in determining the matter. A minor incident committed by an officer in a bar or in an officers mess in some barracks can be recorded and can be a determining factor in whether he is promoted 15 or 20 years later. I do not think that is just, particularly where one officer is the admonishing person.

Our amendment merely seeks to ensure that if there is an admonishment it should be done in the presence of two superior officers. This is a very reasonable proposal. Unless the Minister can give cogent reasons as to why it is not relevant, the amendment should be accepted. The argument about appropriateness is not relevant.

(Limerick West): I am satisfied that what I outlined to Deputy Clohessy is as it should be. As I said there are no provisions to have this amendment included in the Act but I will consider it very carefully under the Defence Force Regulations. There is no provision to have it included in the Defence Acts and there is no way it can be included in this legislation.

The Minister says there is no provision to have an amendment of this type included in the Acts. Is he stating that the House should rule the amendment out of order? If the amendment is in order and is acceptable to the House, surely it can be incorporated in the Act if the House so determines.

(Limerick West): When the Defence Bill, 1954, was under consideration the question of providing for admonishment was examined. The line then taken was that it seemed pointless to add “admonishment” to “reprimand” and “severe reprimand”, thus having three degrees of “telling off”. There was a more serious objection. Admonishment relates to an incident of Army life but it is not a punishment as a result of trial by a commanding officer or a court martial. Many complaints against officers do not come to trial and usually end by the Adjutant-General directing that the officer be admonished.

The Minister is not answering the question.

(Limerick West): If the Deputy will listen, he will hear the answer. If, as proposed, a time limit of five years were introduced, a similar argument could be advanced for various other forms of punishment which are laid down. Again I remind Deputies that this is not something to be included in the Act. I will consider it under the regulations, for the reasons I have just outlined.

Would the Minister not agree that this old fashioned ritual before us is past tense and should be scratched off the regulations altogether? It does have a bearing on officers when promotions are taking place. A remark in one reference as against another could be important.

(Limerick West): I remind the Deputy that the promoting authority is the Minister and the Minister will always take a balanced view with regard to promotions. The fears expressed are groundless.

I would have to agree with the Minister that to write into the Act any requirement with regard to the practice of admonishment is to elevate it to a status it does not have in the present Army code.

I would not agree with Deputy Cooney. I am surprised that he should make that statement in view of his experience and the fact that he lives in an Army town. He must often have occasion to discuss matters of this kind with military personnel on a non-political basis. It is very much a bone of contention in military circles that admonishment is allowed in the manner in which it is applied. It is strongly believed that a procedure should be introduced to revise the system and make provision for safeguards against possible injustices. It is felt in particular that admonishment should not be a life sentence, in other words that it should not stay on a man's file for the whole of his military career. The two main points in the amendment are that admonishment should be done in the presence of two officers and that it should have a life of five years, not the 12 months to which the Minister referred in his reply.

The point I am making is that this is not a suitable matter for the Act. I do not disagree with the point made in the context of regulations.

Will the Minister give an assurance that he will introduce a regulation to give effect to what is proposed in the amendment? If so, we could move on.

(Limerick West): The details contained in the amendment will be considered by the Minister and he will communicate with the Deputy who put down the amendment.

We have been here a long time and we know what words mean. The Minister had an indication of the Progressive Democrats' views on this matter through Deputy Clohessy's contribution on Second Stage. That was some time ago and he has had ample time to consider the matter. It is a weak argument to say that he will consider it further now. Surely he must have made up his mind whether he is in favour of what is proposed. If the Minister is prepared to communicate to the House that he is disposed to make an amendment to the regulations to give effect to this amendment, it might help us to move on in this debate. Otherwise it is difficult to see how we can make progress.

(Limerick West): The amendment proposes to have these provisions enshrined in the Act. I am saying it is a matter for the regulations. It will be considered by the Minister and he will communicate the findings of his consideration to the Deputy. It is not relevant to this section. The right to admonish is inherent in the authority to command and exercise discipline and the number of admonishments per year is in the region of ten or 12.

Twelve life sentences.

(Limerick West): It is not something to be included in the Act.

Can an officer appeal against an admonishment?

(Limerick West): Yes.

To the Minister?

(Limerick West): Yes, as we outlined this morning on section 3.

Only the Minister can make the regulations. It does not happen very often that we have defence legislation before this House. It is quite some time since anything of this nature was discussed here. The House will not have an opportunity to ensure that this change is made while this Bill is before the House. That is why we are anxious to press it. Regulations are solely a matter for the Minister and will not come before this House.

(Limerick West): Provision is made in the Act for the Minister to make the necessary regulations. I have said time and again that it is not a matter for an amendment to the Act but for the regulations. I am prepared to examine the proposals in the amendment under the regulations.

Would the Minister not agree that it is unfair that a very small offence should remain on an officer's record for as long as 20 years?

The Deputy will appreciate that the Minister has indicated that he does not see the need for enshrining this amendment in legislation, albeit that he accepts the spirit of it and is prepared to give consideration to it at some future date. The House will agree that we seem to have exhausted all worthwhile discussion on this amendment. I am asking Deputy Clohessy whether it is his intention to press the amendment or to withdraw it so that we can proceed to discuss in its totality section 4 and the rest of the Bill.

I should like an assurance from the Minister that he will consider very carefully the point I have been making.

(Limerick West): I want to be as helpful as possible. I have a list of the offences included under the Act and admonishment is not one of them. I am precluded from accepting the amendment under the Act. I am prepared to accept the spirit of the amendment and have it considered by way of regulations. I will communicate with the Deputy.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

I welcome the provision in section 4 (1) (a) for alternative and additional penalties to be available for punishment of officers, namely, reduction in rank. However, I wonder if the Minister will consider in this modern time abolishing from the record of punishments dismissal with ignominy from the Defence Forces under section 4 (1) (d). As Deputy Molloy said, it is rarely that legislation dealing with regulations within the armed forces comes before the House and probably it will be a long time before we debate anything of this nature again. The risks are that, if the same period of time elapses as has elapsed since the last such Bill was before the House for discussion, we will be into the next century before the House will be discussing legislation of this nature again. It is appropriate and timely that we should consider whether there is a need for the provision of dismissal with ignominy from the Defence Forces. For any serving soldier, dismissal from the Defence Forces in itself carries shame and ignominy.

I do not necessarily support the abolition of this notion on the same grounds as Deputy Clohessy does as expressed in his contribution to the House on Second Stage, highlighting the fact that the penalty of death was available to the Minister if needed and that he could not then see the need for such dismissal with ignominy.

That is not an accurate quotation of what Deputy Clohessy said. It is taking something out of it. We listed the various sentences.

I have in front of me the Official Report of 5 May 1987, volume 372. I will quote Deputy Clohessy on Second Stage at column 974 to allay any fears that I may be in some way selective:

Under the existing military code an officer can be sentenced inter alia to death——

The Deputy did not mention that.

——imprisonment or dismissal and we do not see any necessity for this additional sentence of "discharge with ignominy".

There were other ones as well.

To suggest that the availability of the death penalty is an alternative to discharge with ignominy is hardly good grounds for arguing for the development of liberal policies of punishment within the Defence Forces.

Under section 4 (1) (d) the substituted subsection (8) provides that where a person is so dismissed with ignominy he will be disqualified forever from serving the State again in any military capacity. Probably that goes without saying as a matter of practicality. However, I am concerned about paragraph (b) in that substituted subsection which suggests that the person dismissed would not be entitled to act or serve in any civil capacity during the period of seven years beginning on the date of his dismissal. The principle must be stressed here that penalties within Aemy life should be confind to Army life. It is unfair to provide for two penalties for someone who is dismissed from the armed forces with or without ignominy who clearly as a serving member has suffered the greatest penalty. It is unfair to follow into the resumed civilian life of that member so that he or she is substantially disadvantaged in pursuing a career. Again as a matter of practicality, the likelihood of a person in the position envisaged by the section applying on the one hand for State employment and on the other hand being considered suitable is small. I wonder if there is any need for this provision at all.

Many people, having been discharged from the armed forces, could well turn their hand to an academic career or to some other very useful training or qualification, and that has not been unusual. I am sure the Minister will agree there are many instances of people sent from the Defence Forces who have taken up very useful careers in civilian life. I am not satisfied that the proviso in subsection (9) allowing for Government discretion in the area of removal is satisfactory. If the position is envisaged, as clearly it is under that proviso, that a person could well be recognised as being capable of making a useful contribution to the civil administration, the Government could well consider employing that person. Does that not really reflect what would happen whether or not you had the provision for disqualification for seven years? It is in some way reflective of an analogous to the provisions of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, when a person convicted of certain offences under that Act is disqualified from holding public office or from being employed by the State for a stated time. However we must come back to the first point. It is important that the penalty or penalties that can be attracted for a misdemeanour within Army life should be confined to the regime there and it is basically unfair to follow a person into resumed civilian life with the penalties that have been meted out to them as members of the armed forces. I ask the Minister to take those two matters in hand in the final stags of this Bill and to tidy it in that respect.

Reduction in rank, as I stated on Second Stage, makes reasonably good sense but I have discussed the matter with a number of people since then and it seems that in an Army the size of ours it could be argued that a reduction in rank might be as serious a penalty as a person could have levelled against him. With an Army of 13,000 or 14,000 that is unlikely to be forgotten by anybody. It is debatable whether it would be seen in the same light as the Minister sees it. I suppose it is a step forward. I want to ask the Minister about the length of time a person is prohibited from entering into employment in a civilian capacity after his dismissal from the Army. I understand that at the moment a person who has been so dismissed is prohibited from obtaining State employment, in a broad sense. I want the Minister to comment on that because, if that is so, it is as serious a sentence as one could wish to give whatever the misdemeanour might be. Whilst the Government have the power to remit part of that seven years sentence in respect of outside employment. I should also like to know from the Minister the number of cases dealt with.

(Limerick West): One case that we are aware of.

This is a step in the right direction and seems to be a more humane approach. I agree with what Deputy McCartan said, that there are occasions on which one could argue that unless there was a very serious offence involved — when somebody was dismissed from the Army — not too many hurdles should be placed in the way of their obtaining employment afterwards. The seven years appears to be rather long but, in relation to the existing provision, constitutes a step in the right direction.

The penalty of dismissal with ignominy is something that is imposed very rarely only and for the gravest of offences, never for a misdemeanour, as Deputy Connaughton suggested — he may have used the word technically — but it is imposed for the gravest of offences only. As the Minister has indicated, within the last decade, there was one such dismissal only. That was for murder when an offending member murdered colleagues in the Lebanon. Members will remember that particularly notorious and tragic case. As this is such a rare punishment it should have the usual consequence of causing the person concerned to be prohibited from State employment. That is not an unreal consequence to add to that punishment having regard to the extraordinary degree of offence that would merit such punishment in the first instance. There is the further safeguard here, that should the penalty be out of proportion to the offence and the consequential disemployment be also out of proportion, the Government can move to cure it by removing the disqualification before the end of the seven years or, indeed, at any time. It is important that the penalty should remain. The application of the penalty is being amended in a humane, proper and sensible way.

With regard to the provision for the reduction in rank of a commissioned officer, I cannot recall what would be the consequences on the seniority list of the rank to which the officer is demoted? At what point in that seniority list will he be inserted? Will he go in at the top of the lower rank or at the bottom of the lower rank? Obviously his arrival into the lower rank will throw the order of seniority out of gear. As the Minister possibly knows by now one matter that often comes to him by way of application for redressing wrongs is when the seniority list is ever interfered with, people feel themselves prejudiced by that interference, feel a wrong has been done to them. Seniority is a very important aspect of the promotion process. If an officer is reduced in rank — say the case of a commandant being demoted to captain — what effect will his arrival into the ranks of the captains have on the captains already in that rank?

A further point that occurs to me is that if an officer is demoted at a certain age the demotion may be more than just demotion. It may mean an earlier termination of his career because, if he is demoted to a lower rank, the retiring age for that rank may be much closer to his actual age than the relevant retirement age of the rank from which he was demoted. I presume that the body imposing the punishment would take that into account and would not add a double penalty. I should be glad to hear from the Minister on the consequences of the demotion on the seniority list of the lower rank.

(Limerick West): In reply to Deputy Cooney, it would probably be at the top.

He would be put in at the top?

(Limerick West): Yes.

And back up again the following week.

(Limerick West): Not necessarily. I thank Deputies for their contributions. The existing disqualification is life-long, as has already been pointed out, in respect of both military and civil employment. The disqualification for civil employment is being modified, placing a seven year limit on its operation. I should say also that the Government would have power to lift this part of the disqualification at any time. It should also be mentioned here that a court martial is never required by law to impose a sentence of dismissal or discharge with ignominy. Even where a sentence of dismissal or discharge is mandatory, the court may always award such a sentence without ignominy.

The punishment of reduction in rank, without doubt, is a severe one. Because of its severity it is likely to be imposed for very serious offences only, such as might otherwise warrant a sentence of dismissal from the Defence Forces. The existence of a less severe punishment than dismissal but a more severe one than any of the lesser punishments now available, will give courts martial a useful alternative which will have the merit of not depriving the officer concerned of his livelihood. Over the years experience has shown that many non-commissioned personnel who were sentenced to be reduced in rank, by diligent service and effort have been able to rehabilitate themselves, regaining their previous rank. There is no reason an officer should not be able to do the same. It is unlikely that the issue will arise very often in the case of officers. In practice it would be an option available to the appeal court if they saw fit to exercise it in cases where an officer appealed against a sentence of dismissal.

I might reiterate what I have said, that because of its consequences in relation to State employment, this sentence is one rarely imposed and then for very serious offences only. It is something I have considered very carefully in the context of this Bill. I am satisfied that what is being proposed is reasonable, fair and — I might add — has been accepted by the military authorities themselves. I am prepared to stand over the provisions in this Bill having had consultations with everybody concerned.

Would the Minister care to explain to the House how effective he thinks an officer would be in fulfilling his military duties if he were to suffer the penalty of reduction in his commissioned rank? Is it not true that the Army is built on discipline and respect for senior officers, that the whole morale of its structure is built on that and is rigidly applied? If, henceforth, an officer who enjoys certain respect from his subordinate officers is himself to be reduced in rank is it not possible that he will become a very ineffective officer? I have the fear that this step would have an adverse effect on morale within the Army, that it would be detrimental to the general development of loyalty within its ranks, particularly in a small country like ours whose Army is small in numbers.

I fail to see what level of authority an officer would be able to command over his subordinates if he himself suffered a reduction in rank. Take the example of a commandant reduced in rank to a captain or even to that of lieutenant — the Minister has not said it would not be possible for an officer to be demoted back one or two ranks, say a lieutenant-colonel demoted to the rank of lieutenant or of captain — I cannot see how such an officer could continue to play an effective role and fulfil his duties in our Army. I would like the Minister's thoughts on that matter to dispel any fears there might be in that area.

(Limerick West): I cannot agree with the Deputy. The officer concerned has the opportunity to rehabilitate himself as would anybody in civilian life if he or she were guilty of a misdemeanour.

We are not dealing with civilian life here.

(Limerick West): I am just giving the Deputy an example. That person is still an officer and as the Deputy knows the alternative is dismissal. As the Deputy knows also, an officer exercises the level of authority appropriate to his rank. I am satisfied that what is contained here is appropriate and acceptable.

I assume other armies have such a procedure.

(Limerick West): Yes, that is correct.

Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 8, before section 5, to insert the following new section:

5.—(1) In any proceedings before any court-martial or before any other Court established under the Constitution, a certificate purporting to be signed by an officer of the Permanent Defence Force not below the rank of Lieutenant Colonel:

(a) to the effect that a contingent of the Permanent Defence Force is or was during any period a part of an International United Nations Force, or,

(b) to the effect that any officer or man of the Permanent Defence Force is or was during any period a serving member of such a contingent of the Permanent Defence Force.

Shall, without proof of the signature thereon, be admissible in evidence and shall be sufficient evidence without further proof of the facts stated therein, unless the contrary is shown.

(2) In this section ‘International United Nations Force' has the meaning assigned to it by Section 1 (1) of the Defence (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1960.

In a recent Lebanon court martial a difficulty arose in relation to providing that the accused was subject to military law. An Irish soldier serving as part of an international United Nations force is deemed, for the purpose of the Defence Acts, to be on active service and therefore subject to military law. The problem is that there is no way of providing that a UN force is duly constituted for the purpose of being an international United Nations force within the meaning of the Defence (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1960.

The purpose of the proposed amendment is to permit proof of the status of such a force by a duly signed certificate of a senior officer of the Permanent Defence Forces. The absence of such a procedure makes it necessary to have evidence of a Government official to prove a Dáil resolution and of a UN official to prove a UN resolution. This causes delay and expense.

(Limerick West): I want to remind the House that Committee Stage of the Bill was already in progress when I received this amendment. Nevertheless, I am prepared to consider the proposal as it merits consideration.

Irish troops have been serving abroad for nearly 30 years and during that time the need for such a provision arose on one occasion only. The requirements of that case were met otherwise on that occasion. Aside from this consideration, namely the one of need on past experience, I am precluded from accepting the amendment without consultation with the law officer.

This amendment may have implications from the legal viewpoint. I am, however, prepared to have the matter examined and to introduce an amendment, if appropriate, when the Bill comes before the Seanad. In that connection I hope the Deputy will consider withdrawing the amendment. I would like to have some more time to consider its legal implications. I want to discuss it with the legal advisers and with the Attorney General's office. At this stage I am not prepared to accept the amendment but I will consider it and will introduce an amendment when the Bill is before the Seanad.

The Minister needs to be cautious in regard to amendments to any Bills, especially one with a legal effect but surely it is not acceptable to say to the Dáil that if an amendment is withdrawn here it can be re-introduced in the Seanad. It is of little consolation to this party, which has no representation in the Seanad, to tell us that the Minister may, in a debate on which we will not be able to comment, introduce an amendment.

The Deputy will appreciate that the Bill will have to come back to the Dáil from the Seanad.

We would have no opportunity to discuss the matter in the Seanad where it would be debated first so it is undesirable from our point of view to introduce an amendment there. Perhaps I may take up a few minutes of the Minister's time in relation to this amendment.

(Limerick West): The Deputy has all my time.

The purpose of the amendment moved by Deputy Clohessy is to make it possible to prove in Irish courts martial that a person is or was at any given time subject to military law by virtue of being on active service. The legal difficulty is that lawfully one cannot be on active service in the Irish Defence Forces outside the State unless under some statutory authority and the only statutory authority that exists for such service with a UN force is under the Defence (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1960. Unfortunately, that Act, when it was introduced in the House — it was the second Bill, which dealth with the same topic, to be introduced in a year — provided particular circumscribed circumstances in which a contingent could be sent on a peace-keeping role under the aegis of the United Nations. In that context it was not anticipated that the restrictions, that is, that a certain form of resolution had to be adopted by the United Nations and that this House had to make a certain form of resolution, could in the last analysis provide obstacles to proof that a member of the Permanent Defence Forces was at any given time subject to military law. If strict proof of the matter is required in any court martial and I have some limited experience of this, the only way it can be proved is by producing to the court martial some admissible evidence of the proceedings of this House and also admissible evidence of the proceedings of the United Nations.

In the trial to which the Minister referred, a United Nations Deputy Secretary General had to be flown from New York to Ireland and brought to the Curragh in great pomp and circumstance and at great expense to the taxpayer to prove the making of a resolution by the relevant council of the UN at the time. That was a remarkably round-about way of effectively plugging a loophole in a case, one which might not be raised by an accused person, because it was not an issue, unless there was difficulty in proving it. Likewise, the Secretary of the Government in that case had to go before the same court martial and produce the record of this House in order to prove that the House had authorised the presence of Irish soldiers in a UN contingent in the Lebanon. Such things should not be the matter of controversy between an accused person and the prosecutor in a court martial.

Although the Minister is correct in saying it has arisen on one occasion only, it is not safe to conclude it is an entirely rare bird that will not arise again. The fact that it was brought up on one occasion and proved in that manner will inevitably occur to some advocate, be he military or civil, appearing before a court martial whenever a similar necessity of proof arises. Although the conduct of our soldiers abroad is exemplary and there have not been very many courts martial of Irish soldiers held in Ireland to adjudicate on their guilt or innocence in respect of offences committed while abroad, it is not to be assumed there will not be more of these courts martial, although I hope for lesser offences. In those circumstances the same difficulty of proof arises in each case — proof of the status of the member of the Permanent Defence Forces is a necessary proof.

The Minister would be wise to avail of the opportunity presented by the passage of this Bill to amend the law to take what is effectively a technical defence away from an accused person and to take away from the State an expensive onus of proof. The Minister said he wanted time to consider the matter because there may be legal implications. We do not want to be unreasonable, but I would like to point out a few things about the legal implications of such a certificate. First, although it is a necessary proof in some cases, it is not one which is, in general terms, likely to be contested if there is an easily accessible way of proving it. Secondly, the way in which Deputy Clohessy has phrased his amendment means that the certificate will be sufficient evidence without further proof of the facts stated in it, unless the contrary is shown. That does not mean it could infringe the Constitution by being conclusive evidence. It is not conclusive. It only brings the matter beyond the point of requiring further proof unless there is controversy, and sustainable controversy, about it.

I urge the Minister to amend the Bill in this way because it is evident that at some future stage a person accused of an infringement of military law in Lebanon or while on a United Nations operation will avail of the inconvenience and expense involved to put the State to equal expense or to the much less desirable alternative of saying it is not worth proving the case against him because it is so insignificant and then dropping the case. It would be most embarrassing if the State had to make a choice between spending £5,000 or £10,000 to move a United Nations official to this country or letting a man off without proving his guilt. It appears that this clause is a sensible way out of that difficulty.

The phraseology of this amendment shows that a cetificate will not be given lightly because it will require a lieutenant colonel to be the purported signatory. That, of itself, means these certificates will not be abused or thrown about in courts martial with a degree of carelessness. This is a serious certificate, but a necessary certificate, unless proof of the contents of the certificate can otherwise be supplied. I urge the Minister to consider the potential embarrassment he will be saved and the saving that will accrue to the taxpayers if he introduces an amendment of this kind, not out of caution or an unwillingness to face a problem which has occurred only once, but which will occur much more often especially when it is in the interests of the accused members of the Permanent Defence Forces to avail of this legal advice.

This is a substantial amendment which will improve military law and will make the conduct of court martial more realistic and make the conduct of accused persons more realistic.

(Limerick West): There is no unwillingness on the part of the Minister to meet the case. Far from it. I have already stated I am accepting the arguments put forward but the House must appreciate I got this amendment only three hours ago and, in those circumstances, I am not prepared to accept it. I am having the case seriously examined. I know this only happened once but I am prepared to have an amendment introduced in the Seanad. I can assure Deputies that the Bill will have to come back to this House for further discussion before the legislation passes into law. I repeat there is no unwillingness on my part to accept the argument in the amendment.

A member of the Permanent Defence Forces is subject to military law at all times. The point that arose in the case referred to by the Deputy was whether the individual was on active service and thus open to trial by court martial for murder. This issue arises only in relation to very serious charges such as murder and manslaughter. It would not be a problem in relation to less serious offences. I want to help Deputy Clohessy and I ask him to accept that I will have this amendment examined. I ask him to accept also that since I received his amendment a very short time ago I was not able to come to a decision on it because there may be serious implications. The next best thing I can do is to have this amendment examined and, if necessary, introduce an appropriate amendment in the Seanad after due consideration by my legal advisers.

I apologise that the amendment was not submitted earlier but I ask the Minister to give it favourable consideration in the Seanad.

We thank the Minister for admitting he is favourably disposed towards accepting the amendment put forward by the Progressive Democrats. Is it the Minister's intention in regard to future courts martial to grant free legal aid to soldiers who have to appear before such courts martial? Surely that principle should have been extended to soldiers long before now?

(Limerick West): That is already available.

In what circumstances is it available?

(Limerick West): It is available in all circumstances and is now provided by law. The Courts Martial Appeals Act, 1983 provided for the granting of free legal aid to persons charged with offences against military law. The Courts Martial Legal Aid Regulations, 1986, brought the relevant provisions of that Act into full effect.

What date in 1986?

We have strayed from the amendment.

I may have missed the regulations.

The Deputy will appreciate that on Committee Stage we must confine ourselves to what is before the House.

(Limerick West): I want to be helpful to Deputy Molloy and, with your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I wish to inform him that the regulations were introduced in December 1986.

Thank you.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 5 agreed to.
Section 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

It obviously makes good sense to ensure that our airports are safe for take-off and landing. Can the Minister say why this was not covered by legislation long ago? A loophole must have been found recently and it is very important to ensure such safety at all times.

(Limerick West): This section empowers the Minister to lop, cut or remove, any tree, shrub, hedge or other plant on land in the vicinity of an aerodrome which obstructs or otherwise interferes with the navigation of aircraft using the aerodrome. Arising from difficulties encountered in regard to trees on private land adjoining Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, which caused difficulty for the operation of aircraft, we were advised by the Attorney General that the options open to the Minister were to compulsorily acquire the land on which the trees were situated. Legislation is now being introduced in this regard.

This section gives the Minister power to lop, cut or remove, any tree, shrub, etc. I seem to recall an occasion when a local resident had an aerial for a television set which was very high and causing an obstruction to military aircraft using Casement Aerodrome. Will the Minister clarify the powers he has to deal with that type of obstruction? Why was it deemed necessary to confine powers to shrubs and trees? Other objects have been obstructions in the past and I remember it was very hard to get the aerial to which I referred removed, although it was deemed to be dangerous for aircraft. Has the matter been cleared up now and, if so, could the Minister indicate under what statutory authority he can remove an aerial, high cranes or any other objects erected which do not necessarily require planning permission?

(Limerick West): It is catered for in section 36 of the 1954 Act.

It authorises the Minister to remove such objects?

(Limerick West): Yes.

Does it authorise the Minister to remove trees and shrubs?

(Limerick West): In 1954 trees and shrubs were not an issue in so far as Casement Aerodrome was concerned.

I do not think that television aerials were an issue then either.

(Limerick West): The same difficulties did not arise in 1954 because helicopters were not used very often. It is now necessary to introduce amending legislation in this regard.

Is the Minister happy that this will cater for the problem?

(Limerick West): I am.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 8 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 12, before section 15, to insert the following new section:

"15. —Notwithstanding anything in the Principal Act, the Minister shall not promote an Officer unless the Officer has been recommended for promotion by the Chief of Staff.".

Up to June 1975 the promotion of an officer by the Minister for Defence depended, inter alia, on being recommended for promotion by the Chief of Staff. In June 1975 the then Minister. former Deputy Donegan, wished to promote an officer not recommended by the then Chief of Staff, the late General T.D. O'Carroll. Rather than operate within the law, the then Minister, in order to appoint his own man, changed the law. As a result of the amendment which he introduced, it is now only necessary that the Minister should consider any recommendation made by the Chief of Staff and then promote an officer, notwithstanding the possible objection by the Chief of Staff.

When the amendment of Regulation A15 was introduced, it was bitterly opposed by the Fianna Fáil Opposition and pledges were given that it would be repealed at the earliest opportunity. However, this was never done. The Progressive Democrats feel that the amendment of the then Minister, former Deputy Donegan, should now be repealed as it gives the Minister dangerously wide powers in the matter of promotion of officers particularly to senior rank, and introduces political patronage in a profession whose members have sworn allegiance to the State and non-membership of a political party.

(Limerick West): The Defence Force Regulations provide that the Minister may, having considered such recommendations as may be made by the Chief of Staff, promote an officer from one rank to a higher rank. This wording was introduced by the then Minister, former Deputy Donegan, on 17 June 1975. Prior to that date and since the coming into operation of the Defence Act, 1954, on 1 January 1955, a Minister exercised his authority on the recommendation of the Chief of Staff. Under Defence legislation, the Minister for Defence has, since 1924, been the promoting authority in so far as the promotion of officers is concerned. Having regard to the position of the Minister and the Government in relation to the Defence Forces, it would not be appropriate to alter the legislation in this respect. The relevant provision in the Defence Act, 1954, is contained in section 45. The manner in which he exercises that authority, laid down in a Defence Force Regulation, is a separate matter which does not arise in the context of the consideration of the Bill before the House. I assure the House that during my term of office promotion procedures will be applied fairly and with regard to the recommendations of the Chief of Staff. The Minister for Defence is the promoting authority and he will have to have due consideration to the recommendation of the Chief of Staff. I am not prepared to accept this amendment.

I would like to support the amendment proposed by Deputy Clohessy. We must seize this opportunity to bury once and for all what has come to be known as the Donegan amendment. It was a very unfortunate development in the policy of promotions in the armed forces that the Minister of the day saw to impose his view contrary to that of the commanding officer or the Chief of Staff of the day. To the extent that the amendment now being promoted by Deputy Clohessy seeks to confront that matter and notwithstanding the assurances the Minister has given to us today — and I have no doubt that he means well in what he has said — it is important that this House puts on the Statute Book a clear affirmation of the principle that the Chief of Staff of the armed forces should always have the important say, if not the veto, on any promotions within the forces under his command. For that reason this is a worthwhile amendment. I accept that it does not come within the particular order or regime of the Bill as drafted and presented to the House but that is not a fair or valid reason to prohibit the acceptance of any useful amendment which might well come from any quarter of this House. On this occasion the amendment deserves to be accepted and I hope the Minister will take it on board.

To the extent that it reflects his earnest intentions, and it does no more than that, in his term as Minister it should present no difficulties either to himself or the Government to append it to the Bill in passing. To that extent the Minister should take it on board as reflecting not only, as Deputy Clohessy has said, the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party when this matter first arose but also to the extent that it reflects his Government's policy. There is a feeling on all sides of the House at present that it should be put on the Statute Book as a clear declaration that while the ultimate authority is the Minister's Office nonetheless the Minister's Office would reflect and respect the undoubted important position of the Chief of Staff of the armed forces with regard to order, discipline and promotion within the forces under his command.

For my information and that of the House, will the Minister clarify what in practical terms is the role of the Chief of Staff as regards promotion within the services? As the picture now appears to be getting a little bit blurred, I would be particularly grateful to the Minister if he would outline to the House the specific role of the Chief of Staff. From my very limited knowledge and from the briefing sessions I have had so far, I am not sure there is the particular problem we are talking about. However, I stand to be corrected and I would be very thankful to the Minister if he would clarify what is the specific role of the Chief of Staff as regards promotions.

(Limerick West): The role of the Chief of Staff is that following consultations with the Adjutant-General and the Quartermaster General he would then make a recommendation to the Minister for the necessary promotion. I also want to say in relation to this amendment that to change the so-called arrangements made by the former Minister for Defence, the former Deputy Donegan, does not require an amendment of the Defence Act; they can be changed by regulation. Again, I want to reiterate what I have already stated, that while I am Minister I will at all times have due consideration to the recommendations of the Chief of Staff.

In fairness, to your predecessors as well.

(Limerick West): I should also have said that.

It did not apply in the case of the former Deputy Donegan.

With all due respects, the Minister stands convicted out of his own mouth on this matter because he has just said that this is a matter for regulation as things at present stand and that it has nothing to do with the Act. The question then arises——

(Limerick West): I said, the changing——

I appreciate that but if the matter is entirely governed by regulation, as section 45 effectively says it is, and the Minister has power to promote people only in accordance with regulations and you accord to the Minister the right to make such regulations, you are giving him a free hand. If the former Deputy Donegan in his wisdom in 1975 could introduce regulations which only required him to give consideration to what the Chief of Staff recommended, obviously it would have been open to him — to amend the regulations so as not to require him to give any consideration to anybody's views on the matter but to exercise his own totally unfettered discretion in relation to promotion. That is the weakness in this procedure. If the regulations the Minister had to make under section 45 had to be approved by this House, this House would have an opportunity to decide yes or no on any particular regulations made by the Minister on how the system of promotions was to be governed. What the Minister now says is that it is not appropriate to provide in an Act what has heretofore in substance been covered by regulation and what is clearly envisaged in the Act as being the proper subject matter of regulations. I would go along with him if there was any way of ensuring that a Minister would not decide to change the rules and move the goal posts by bringing in different criteria for promotions. That is what we object to so strenuously.

If the armed forces are to be free from political interference, it is quite obvious they must be kept free by the law of the State and not by a mere undertaking — if the Minister will permit me for describing it as such — given on Committee Stage of an amendment Bill to the Defence Act. It is not good enough that we have to take the undertaking of a Minister in relation to this matter. The law of the land used to be as set out in the regulations before the former Deputy Donegan changed them when promotion other than in accordance with the advice of the Chief of Staff was unlawful. The former Minister then changed the role of the Chief of Staff to a consultative and advisory one. While we accept the Minister's bona fides when he says he will regard himself as bound by the Chief of Staff's recommendation and will not go behind it, as far as we are concerned that is not good enough. The Minister may not always be there as Minister. What Deputy Clohessy's amendment seeks to do is put into law what was previously set out in regulation but which was cynically changed by a Minister of the day in order to suit his own convenience. The amendment seeks to put into law the requirement that the views of the Chief of Staff should be abided by and that promotions made by the Minister should be in accordance with and on foot of his advice.

If the Minister were to say that regulations were the proper way to deal with this and statute is not, then the obvious conclusion would be for the Minister to agree to an amendment of section 45 of the Principal Act so as to provide that regulations in relation to the promotion of officers should not have effect unless they are brought before this House and approved by it. Therefore, the agreement of this House would always be necessary for any particular moving of the goal posts or cynical manoeuvre by any of the Minister's successors, or predecessors as should have been the case. Of course, there is no such undertaking coming from the Minister today. He is not saying this is a matter which cannot be changed without the say-so of this House. We say it should be and unless we can bring in an amendment of the kind now suggested by Deputy Clohessy, the only other way to ensure that another Minister, a successor of the present Minister, will not abuse his position is to deal with the matter by way of requiring that regulations be approved by this House rather than simply being made by a Minister and laid before the House by putting them in the Library where nobody can effectively do anything about them.

This is a matter of considerable moment. It is one on which, unlike the other amendments put forward by Deputy Clohessy, the Progressive Democrats take the view that we will not allow it to be simply dealt with on the basis that this would be considered by the Seanad. If the Minister really believes in the terms of the undertaking he has given to this House he should have no objection to encapsulating the principle he says he stands by in the law of the land. If he really believes in it as just a matter which should be dealt with by regulation, the sad fact is that another Minister such as Deputy Donegan could do precisely the same thing in five or ten years' time and there would be no defence to it. The Army are necessarily politicised by making ministerial discretion stand where heretofore and with perfectly good results there was no such ministerial discretion in the sense that the Chief-of-Staff's advice was something which had to be acted on rather than something which had to be paid regard to.

So far as we are concerned this is a point of principle. It is one on which the Minister's party have publicly beaten their breasts and said they believe in as a point of principle. If the Minister will not accept this amendment or will not agree to the amendment of section 45 so as to provide that before such regulations can be changed, the approval of this House must be obtained, thereby giving the House a say in such matters, unfortunately we shall have to call a division on the amendment and have the House decide. We will have to have the Minister's party who said one thing in public before vote in the opposite direction now.

(Limerick West): The Deputy is now misquoting me. The Minister is not aware of any disquiet at the operation of the present arrangements. The net effect of the proposed amendment would be to make the Chief-of-Staff the promoting authority, giving up the position of the Government and the Minister for Defence in relation to the command and control of the Defence Forces. The amendment is not acceptable. I would stress very forcefully that the existing procedures will be applied fairly and always with regard to the recommendation of the Chief-of-Staff. It might be appropriate to state at this stage that the question was fully reviewed in 1979 by the then Minister for Defence who was none other than Deputy Robert Molloy.

That is why I asked the question.

(Limerick West): He decided that the 1975 wording should remain unchanged.

The sins of the fathers.

I am surprised that the Minister should have such a paucity of argument as to stoop to the last comment.

(Limerick West): The House should be made aware of the full facts.

I had intended speaking before he said that. The last person one can expect to want to change the present position is the incumbent Minister. No Minister will state publicly that he does not trust himself. That is, in effect, what he would be saying if he were to demand a change in this regulation. This is a power that he has been given following the change that Minister Donegan made in 1975.

I am one of those who held the office of Minister for Defence and who had the full responsibility of making decisions in regard to promotions but if the Minister wishes to look up his files he will get confirmation that on no occasion did I make a promotion — at least none that I can recall here — without having first considered fully a recommendation from the Chief-of-Staff.

The present situation is too fragile. It depends on the integrity of the individual who holds the office of Minister. It has always been the pride of this country that Army personnel gave complete allegiance to the State no matter which party or group of parties were in office. Having sworn non-participation in or membership of any political party on receiving their commission, it was important that throughout their military career there would never be any necessity for them to curry favour with any political group to ensure success in their military careers.

Having had my two and a half years' experience in the Department and from what I have heard in discussions since, I am of the opinion that it is a grave mistake to continue with the Donegan amendment. It is important that we should revert to the situation that pertained prior to that. The Minister is not correct in stating that in some way this would be removing authority from the Government and the Minister. The Government have the authority to appoint the Chief-of-Staff, the Deputy Chief-of-Staff, the Adjutant-General and the Quarter-Master-General. They are the senior commanding officers in the Army. It is wrong that it should be the decision of the Minister without having to take into account the recommendation of the Chief-of-Staff, that he should decide when a captain becomes a commandant, when a commandant becomes a lieutenant-colonel, when a lieutenant-colonel is promoted to full colonel status and so on with the other ranks. To preserve the non-politicisation of our military personnel it is essential that we restore the principle that obtained up to the time when Minister Donegan made that change. We have refrained from referring to the Dáil debates and bringing out the arguments made against that at that time. We want to keep the debate on a low, sensible and level key and deal with the principle, not play party politics. It is in the interests of the Defence Forces and the personnel serving there that we want to see the position restored. It is on that basis and that basis alone that we feel it is essential to do so.

I do not accept that this or any Minister will wish to admit that there is need for this change. He is the person charged with the sole right to make a decision during his term of office. It is a matter for the House and one which we should face up to. The opportunity does not arise too often where we can discuss military law and military affairs. This debate presents that opportunity. It is important that the House should avail of this opportunity to restore the position to what it was before the change in June 1975. For that reason we are putting forward this amendment and wish the House to decide on it.

This is a contentious issue. I have the disadvantage, not shared by some people who have spoken before me, in not having anything to do with the Defence Forces, other than the contacts I have had in the short time since I took on this responsibility of spokesman in this area. It appears that this special relationship which must exist between the Army and the Minister for Defence of the day has been developed and strengthened in the past ten or 12 years. I assume that one can read anything one likes into these matters but that various Governments have examined this subject in the past 12 or 13 years and that all seem to have come to the one conclusion, that is, that the Minister for Defence should be the promoting officer. I have to acknowledge that, provided due recognition is given to the status of the Chief of Staff, such decisions are about right. One could get very emotional about such a topic and whip up a lot of fear but from my limited knowledge of Army personnel, and the Department of Defence, it appears that the arrangement has worked well under various Ministers in the past ten or 12 years.

One must always keep a sharp lookout to ensure that promotions are in the best interests of the people concerned but Fine Gael feel we should retain the present system. The fact that several Governments have looked at the system in recent years is an indication that there is no need to change the system at this stage. We should persevere with it and if we are concerned in years to come, there is no reason why we cannot change the system. This is an important part of the whole structure of the Army and I assume that this system will be strengthened in the future. I do not see why it should be changed at the moment.

(Limerick West): The Minister must at all times have regard to the recommendations of the Chief of Staff. Defence Forces Regulations provide that the Minister may, having considered such recommendations as may be made by the Chief of Staff, promote an officer from one rank to a higher rank.

The Minister can ignore them and that is the point I am making.

(Limerick West): In the final analysis the Minister is responsible for promotions and is answerable to the House, irrespective of whether the promotion is made under the old system or the amendment in the regulations made in 1975. The Minister for Defence in 1979 held the same view as I hold now and I do not see why Deputy Molloy has changed his mind since.

A lot has happened since 1979-80. A lot of decisions were made by Ministers since 1980 which many of us were not very happy about. There is no reason to believe that an occasion could not arise in the future when, if this type of arrangement is allowed to obtain, the Donegan attitude might again be adopted by the incumbent Minister for Defence. The politicisation of the Irish Army would recommence. I am not saying the Minister intends to act in that way and I am satisfied that I did not act in that way when I was Minister. In fact, all the personnel who have occupied the office since former Deputy Donegan acted in a very honourable way in regard to promotions. The State can be happy that it was served in that way by those individuals but I am not satisfied to leave the position open indefinitely. It is a matter of great importance to my party who, following due consideration, have decided that it is important to revert to the position that obtained before. I participated in that decision within my party and I am of the opinion, drawing on my experience and the fears I have for the future, that we should adopt the amendment.

I heard on the monitor allegations by Deputy Molloy of improper attitudes towards the promotion of officers by Ministers for Defence in recent years. Those allegations can only apply to me as I was Minister for Defence in the last number of years.

I did not say that.

I should like to state categorically that there were no promotions——

I did not say that.

The Deputy should be more careful in the language he uses. I heard allegations of the politicisation of the Army.

The Deputy's monitor must not have been working too well.

I want to deny any such politicisation on my part.

Listening to monitors and then rushing to the Chamber means that one does not hear the full debate. Deputy Cooney must not have heard me pay tribute to those who have held the office of Minister for Defence since former Deputy Donegan. I said they all acted in an honourable way and that the State owed a debt of gratitude to those — I was not referring to myself — who acted during that period. To my knowledge none of them acted improperly on the question of promotions and I cannot understand how Deputy Cooney can come to the conclusion that I was in some way inferring that he had acted improperly. The only inference I made — I stated it clearly — was that definitely former Deputy Donegan when Minister acted improperly in my view. I did not make any accusation against any Member who held that office since.

That is a deplorable comment to make.

It is true. Fine Gael should be ashamed of themselves.

Deputy Molloy got his chance to change the procedure in 1979 but he did not do it. He is now talking with a forked tongue.

We will see where the Deputy stands on this issue in a moment.

Deputy Molloy has made an outrageous remark that relates to a person who is not a Member of the House now. It is outrageous also in that it is not supported by any evidence. It has been made by a Member who was Minister for Defence in 1979 and has now turned his coat and changed his attitude in relation to this issue. He excuses that by casting implications on a former honourable Member of the House. The comment is outrageous and I must protest.

I should like to refer the Deputy to the Dáil Official Report of 1975 where there is ample evidence.

The protestations have been noted. I must ask Deputy Molloy to exercise the normal standard of behaviour expected of seasoned Deputies. The Deputy could be giving bad example to the younger Members.

Question put: "That the new section be there inserted."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 97.

  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Colley, Anne.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Gibbons, Martin Patrick.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kennedy, Geraldine.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McDowell, Michael Alexander.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Malley, Pat.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Abbott, Henry.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barry, Peter,
  • Birmingham, George,
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mooney, Mary.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermott.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Swift, Brian.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G. V.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Harney and Cullen; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Browne.
Question declared lost.
Section 15 and 16 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment and passed.
Barr
Roinn