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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 1987

Vol. 373 No. 5

Court Case Adjudications: Statements.

A particularly abhorrent and outrageous crime was committed in Cavan town in the early hours of 3 December last year. Nothing that any of us says here today will alter that. All of our sympathies must go out to the victim of that crime for the appalling suffering, both mental and physical, which she has had to endure from the circumstances of the crime itself and for the additional trauma and distress that she has suffered as a result of having to re-live the ordeal again in the course of the court proceedings.

As I said, nothing that we say can undo what has happened. Our purpose in commenting on it must be to try to bring about any changes that are called for that may help to reduce the likelihood that anyone in future will have to suffer in the same way. It is not easy to know what can be done to prevent the occurrence of a crime of this nature. The fact that such an appalling crime can occur in our society must be of serious concern to us all and we can ask what has gone wrong with a society which produces people who are prepared to commit offences such as this. But this is not really what we are addressing here today. Our concern must be to ensure, when a crime does occur, particularly a crime of such a heinous nature, that the resources available to the State, and the ways in which these resources operate, are such as to provide an effective legal process by which the guilty can be apprehended and brought to justice.

As Minister for Justice I am entrusted with responsibility for the administration and business generally of public services in connection with law, justice, public order and police and with powers, duties and functions connected with the same. While this is so, there are overriding principles, enshrined in Articles of our Constitution, which provide for the separating of the functions of the executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary. There is, accordingly placed on me, as Minister for Justice, a limitation on what I can properly say on this particular matter. As a member of the Executive addressing the Legislature about a matter which directly concerns the judicial process, it is incumbent on me to be punctilious in not saying anything which might be construed as breaching the principles I have referred to. There is a grave onus on us all to exercise responsibility in that regard.

I am of course anxious as far as possible, within the constraints I have mentioned, that the Dáil should have the opportunity of expressing its views on matters that can be and are being widely discussed in the media and elsewhere. If we cannot have that, there is a danger of lending support to the allegation that is sometimes made, that Dáil discussions are too often irrelevant to the real issues of the day.

In turning now to the case in question, I want to make two points very clearly, and I ask all subsequent speakers to keep them very firmly in mind. First, a person was charged with the very serious offences connected with this crime, that person was properly brought before a court, and that person was found "Not Guilty" of all the charges brought against him, by a jury of his peers. That is something that the jury was bound to do once, in their view, any reasonable doubt existed about the guilt of the accused. That the jury found it possible to agree on their verdict so quickly — in something like ten minutes according to reports — is, I believe, of some considerable significance. Whatever about that, the point is that the jury disposed of this case and we here cannot question their verdict and in effect presume to try the case again.

The second point is that neither are we here to comment in any way on the conduct of the case by the presiding judge. There is a long and I believe well-justified tradition in this House that the exercise of their functions by the Judiciary, or individual court decisions, are not criticised here. In making the point I want to make it very clear that there is no implication that justified criticism might be possible were it not for the existence of this tradition. The point to be borne in mind is that the Judiciary are independent in the exercise of their functions subject only to the Constitution and the law.

The aspect of the case which seems to have attracted most public concern is the reported absence of Senior Counsel briefed by the Director of Public Prosecutions during parts of the trial, especially during certain parts where his attendance could be expected to be of particular importance. I assure you that I most definitely share this concern that a Senior Prosecuting Counsel should be absent to any significant extent during the hearing of a serious criminal trial for which his services have been engaged.

I am aware that the General Council of the Bar of Ireland has had its own inquiry carried out in connection with the circumstances of this case. I have seen the report of this inquiry and in my view it does little to allay the public concern that has been widely expressed.

The Director of Public Prosecutions is also having inquiries made into what exactly transpired in this case and why. At this stage the only comment I shall make is this — irrespective of whether what happened occurred by virtue of some practice, or departure from a practice — the consequences of these inquiries must, in my view, be such as to ensure and to satisfy the public at large that an occurrence of this nature will not happen again.

I have also been informed by the Attorney General that he will be holding a statutory consultation with the Director of Public Prosecutions under the provisions of the Prosecution of Offences Act, 1974, on those aspects of our systems and procedures for prosecuting criminal offences which call to be looked at in the light of what occurred in this particular case. The Attorney General will keep both the Taoiseach and myself informed of the steps, if any, that may need to be taken arising out of the statutory consultation.

He has informed the Attorney General that his practice over the 12 years since the establishment of his office has been, and is, to brief counsel for the prosecution on the basis that they give full attention to the case throughout the trial. The Attorney General has also been informed by the DPP that his inquiries are being conducted in the light of that practice.

A Cheann Comhairle, I am very conscious of the remarks you made earlier this morning and I hope to respect your wishes in my contribution. However, in my opinion it is vitally important that those living under a democratic system of government respect the laws of the land, that those responsible for administering these laws do so in a fair and equitable way and that those involved in the whole legal system are respected. Attacks on these basic principles must be checked immediately and action must be taken to restore public confidence.

I do not intend to try to turn this Chamber into a courthouse. My remarks are not intended to question the guilt or innocence of the accused man. That matter was decided by a jury consisting of nine men and three women when they returned a verdict of "not guilty." They did this having been persuaded by the defence that guilt could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. It would appear from newspaper reports that it took only ten minutes to reach that decision.

However, a number of questions must be answered by the Minister to allay public disquiet and I note he answered some of the questions in his contribution. I pose a number of questions which the Minister might address when winding up this debate. Is it not reasonable in cases such as this to expect the full prosecution team to be in attendance from the beginning to the end of the trial? I note the Minister's comments in this regard but the question must be answered firmly. Rape is always a dreadful crime and presumably because in this instance it was accompanied by the most brutal violence — the Director of Public Prosecutions through the Chief State Solicitor saw fit to brief both a senior and junior counsel to represent and put forward the best possible case on behalf of the State. Surely, therefore, it is reasonble to expect that the DPP should ensure that whoever was offered the brief was available to be present right throughout the period of the trial? If that was not the case, it should have been the case. The Minister should give a guarantee today that this will be the procedure in future.

It has been suggested that the absence of the senior counsel for nearly two days of the trial made little or no difference to the outcome as the junior counsel is a very experienced lawyer and ably substituted for his leader. That may be so, but if that is the case, it poses another question. Why was it necessary to engage the services of a senior counsel in the first place if the case could be adequately handled by a junior counsel? It must also be recognised that on this occasion the defence team was led by one of the most formidable defence lawyers in this country. Human nature being what it is, the members of the jury must have been conscious of the difference in rank, no matter how competent the junior counsel may have been. Otherwise why should we have both senior and junior counsels? To be fair to the senior counsel in this instance it should be made clear by the DPP, through the Minister, if it was a condition of his accepting this brief that he be present throughout the whole period of the trial.

This leads me to another question. Mr. Carney was absent for nearly two days of the rape case because he was representing the State in another case in the High Court. Can the Minister tell me if there was another senior or junior counsel representing the State in this particular case in the High Court and if so, and to avoid the continuation of rumours around this House as to who this counsel might be, can the Minister name this counsel?

Passed on by you.

Put out by yourself.

If there was a second counsel representing the State in the High Court could he or she——

Are you looking for information or giving it?

Would you let me make my contribution, you can come back and reply afterwards.

Deputy Harney is a fair hand at talking herself.

I am not afraid to say openly what I think.

If there was a second counsel representing the State in the High Court——

Fine Gael are reaching a new low.

——could he or she not have taken that case on their own leaving Mr. Carney free to continue the prosecution case in the rape case? Was it the case that the second counsel was not present in the High Court and that because of this Mr. Carney was forced to leave the rape case to the junior counsel and take the case in the High Court. Is it the case that two sets of fees are paid regardless of whether one of the counsel is present and, if so, should this continue? I make that comment to be fair to the senior counsel who is being questioned as to his availability to represent the State in the rape case. It is only right and proper, in order to be fair to the gentleman, that it should be made quite clear to this House if there was a second counsel retained by the State in respect of the High Court case and, if so, who it was and why that person was not present in the High Court, why he was not present to allow Mr. Carney to be available to represent the State in the rape case? Surely, in a case such as this where a counsel is representing the State in two different cases he must decide which is the most important case in terms of gravity. That question should be cleared up. If there are rumours around this House and if it is being suggested that I started those rumours——

Spread by you.

——I want to contradict that because I was told by someone in the Law Library who the other counsel was and it is only fair and reasonable that that matter should be cleared up here.

You tried to sell it to every newspaper for the past week.

There are some people in this House who appear to be terribly anxious that that question should not be answered and those same people come into this House and talk about the reduction in public expenditure and the abolition of State pensions but when it comes to asking questions about certain vested interest groups which should be answered they seem to become extremely nervous.

And will be.

Let us cut out the hypocrisy. If the State is going to pay two sets of fees to two counsels to represent the State in court those people should be present and if they are not present they should not be paid and should not accept payment. If I am to be stopped by the barracking of a certain group in this House just because I pose a question, there must be something to hide.

I would now like to turn to the report of the inquiry which was carried out by Mr. Justice McWilliam. First, I welcome the fact that this inquiry was carried out by the Bar Council but to say that I am disappointed with the outcome is to put it mildly. I do not wish to imply that Mr. Justice McWilliam acted in any way improperly nor that the facts contained in his report are inaccurate. It seems that following the carrying out of this investigation the Bar Council intend to take no action nor intend to amend the code of conduct adopted by them in July 1985.

To say the least, this is puzzling. It may be common practice among lawyers for one of them to be missing during a trial, even for the second counsel to take the case, and it may even be done with the approval of the Bar Council but if it is common practice steps should be taken to eliminate it at least in very serious cases such as this. Will the Minister tell the House if he proposes to take any action to bring this about in view of what I consider the unwise decision of the Bar Council not to do so on a voluntary basis.

The full text of the report published in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times was very helpful. It is extremely disappointing that the full text of the trial proceedings was not available to this House. I was disappointed to read this morning in one of the newspapers that the Department had not sought this transcript. Could the Minister indicate whether that newspaper statement is accurate because if it is, steps should be taken to ensure that if we are to have this type of debate in future a full transcript should be available to those who are supposed to represent the different political party interests in this House.

The emphasis is on "party interests".

Deputy Harney seems to be extremely irate at my contribution and I wonder why. She was extremely quiet over the weekend——

I beg your pardon.

I did not hear one comment from her and then suddenly on Monday or Tuesday she spoke about amending the law in relation to rape.

I have been talking for the past week.

I read in one of this morning's newspapers that she is now becoming very concerned about the activities of the Bar Council. All of a sudden she has become very concerned.

I have been concerned about every case.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. The Deputy in possession to continue.

That is outrageous. I have spoken about this case since the first day and this is the first case that you have ever commented upon.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. Deputy Barrett has about three minutes left of the time allotted to him.

On a point of order——

I will entertain no point of order. There is a time limit on this debate and the Deputy in possession has about three and a half minutes left. The Deputy can make her point when she is making her contribution which I understand she is about to make in this debate.

The full text of the report published in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times was very helpful. However, having read it one glaring question needs to be asked and that is why the senior counsel, Mr. Carney, did not make an application on the Friday before commencement of the rape case in the High Court for an adjournment of that case? I would like to quote from The Irish Times. In referring to the code of conduct adopted by the Bar Council on 30 July 1985 Mr. Justice McWilliam stated as follows——

The Deputy might now draw his remarks to a conclusion. He has about one and a half minutes left.

He has not discussed legislation in relation to rape.

Deputy Harney, please.

I am discussing a matter which is extremely important and which is causing grave public concern——

Extremely important to you.

——and I want to discuss a report which the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights, of which the Taoiseach was a member, have produced.

This is the first case you have referred to.

The Taoiseach has given a commitment that the recommendations contained in that excellent report——

I shall now have to ask the Deputy to conclude.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please, the Deputy might now conclude.

It is very difficult for me to try to make a contribution if on my right side there is a vested interest group constantly roaring and shouting at me.

This is the first case you have ever referred to.

The amount of time available to people should be taken into account. One cannot concentrate in a contribution of this nature——

The Deputy is seeking injury time.

I was asked to be very careful about what I was going to say. They are like a crowd of schoolchildren who suddenly appeared in a new dwelling and became excited.

We did take a seat from Fine Gael in Dún Laoghaire.

Order, please.

I want to make one or two points in relation to the report produced by Mr. Justice McWilliam. In his report he quoted paragraph 2.9 (b) of the code of conduct which states as follows:

A barrister owes a duty to a solicitor instructing him to inform him promptly if he is likely to be unable to attend to the matter on which he is instructed or if there is likely to be a delay in dealing with it.

The Deputy must now conclude as his time is exhausted.

Did the senior counsel report this matter?

I must now call another Member.

Was the Chief State Solicitor aware of the fact that the senior counsel in this case did not attend for the full period of the rape trial?

I must now ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

In conclusion, I want to put on the record——

The Deputy should have concluded a minute or so ago.

I just want to put on the record that the Minister should see to it that the implementation of the recommendations made by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights should be brought into place in the very near future and the amendment of the law should take place.

I want at the outset to indicate that I have a personal involvement with some of the issues raised in this matter by Deputy Barrett. I was asked by the Attorney General, after my call to the Inner Bar, to retain my junior counsel's brief for the State in the Kennemerland case, a constitutional case in which Mr. Paul Carney was senior counsel, which was heard on 26 May, 1987 and on subsequent days. I also want to put on record, for the guidance of Deputy Barrett, that Mr. Carney was, co-incidentially, in the course of the recent general election my election agent. I have been made aware by Deputies on all sides of this House and by journalists that Deputy Barrett and others anticipated some embarrassment on my part during this debate. In short, the Deputy and a Senator with a keen interest in my career have put about a rumour that Mr. Carney was prevented from attending the Cavan rape case by my absence during part of the Kennemerland case. That suggestion is completely false.

On a point of order, would the Deputy please state, if he is going to make an accusation of that nature, who informed him that I put about a rumour that Mr. Carney could not attend the Cavan rape case because——

Is the Deputy denying it?

I am denying that I put that rumour out. I reported what was told to me by——

I sought to secure a good hearing for Deputy Barrett without interruption. I want the same good hearing for the Deputy in possession.

The answer to the Deputy is that he informed Mr. Stephen McGrath of the Irish Independent Group of Newpapers yesterday who contacted me to tell me that. If the Senator watching the debate wants to know about it, a Cheann Comhairle, he told Deputy Gregory and various other people in this House of these matters. I know these facts and I know just how scurrilous and how low these rumours are. The Deputy doubtless was unaware that on 26 May Mr. Carney and I discussed Mr. Carney's position and Mr. Carney, who has prepared lengthy submissions and had recently appeared in a case decided on similar issues in which judgment was reserved, informed me that it was his intention to make the only submission on behalf of the State and for that purpose to remain constantly with the Kennemerland case. I am satisfied that that decision was made properly and conscientiously by him.

On the following morning, 27 May, the final day of the Cavan rape case, Mr. Carney excused me for a short time from the Kennemerland case for the purpose of allowing me to attend a funeral, along with other members of my family, of a close family friend. I arranged for another junior counsel to take my place in the Kennemerland case.

I challenge anybody to repeat outside the House what has been said in the House but I repeat that there is no sense in which Mr. Carney was kept away from any portion of the Cavan rape case by reason of my attendance at that funeral. If there has been, I would not have attended the funeral and, if so, Mr. Carney would not have permitted me to attend the funeral. Accordingly, there never was any question of my being embarrassed by these matters. If Deputy Barrett had approached me to tell me these things, I would have been happy to put him right on these issues. Instead, he chose to raise this matter in this House in the hope of making some political capital, or doing me some damage politically or professionally.

The Deputy fancies himself.

In the event, the embarrassment is all his.

There is no embarrassment. I thought that the Deputy was going to speak about rape.

I want to thank the many journalists and Members of this House who discounted Deputy Barrett's attempt to smear me, who would have none of it and expressed revulsion at his behaviour. My advice to Deputy Barrett is to devote the considerable energy which he misplaced in trying to embarrass me to attempting instead to master his brief as Justice spokesman for his party — and on today's performance he seems to have made very little progress in coming to grips with any of the issues involved.

I do feel embarrassed by attending a debate in which so little real thought has gone into the basic issues involved. Alone of all the Members of this House I have prosecuted rape cases to conviction and defended others accused of rape to acquittal and that was as a junior counsel. I have had considerable experience of the workings of the law in its substance and administration in rape cases and I have had, at first hand, an opportunity to see the weaknesses and the clear need for reform in this area of the law.

First, there is a clear need to amend the definition of rape to include other violent acts of sexual defilement by penetration by objects and certain forms of mutilation which are not now included in the definition of rape, which is confined to penile penetration of the vagina.

Secondly, there is a strong case for restating the criminal law in relation to sexual violence within marriage. Whether the concept of rape within marriage is the best means of doing so is something about which I have practical reservations. I should like the Minister to bring forward a discussion paper on this matter which advances the matter beyond the report of the women's rights committee of this House of recent years.

There is also the entire field of how rape cases are conducted and where they are conducted. One of the clear messages from the report of Mr. Justice McWilliam was that the Circuit Court is an overworked and under-equipped court to deal with rape cases. In 1981 two Acts were passed, the Criminal Law (Rape) Act and the Courts Act. Section 31 of the Courts Act of 1981 had the effect of removing from the Central Criminal Court, which is the criminal side of the High Court, any function in relation to rape, kidnapping, drug dealing and other serious offences. These cases were transferred exclusively to the overloaded and overworked Circuit Criminal Court. While the purpose was to prevent the High Court from being needlessly weighed down by minor trials on indictment, it was a major error that serious crimes apart from murder, attempted murder and treason would be removed from the High Court where they stood a better chance of being heard with adequate facilities, adequate time and consistent sentencing policies.

The Progressive Democrats, alone of the political parties in the last general election put that issue before the electorate as their policy. I invite Deputies of this House to visit the Circuit Criminal Court in Dublin, where they will see a hard working Judiciary and Bar working to deal with a large volume of indictable crime in circumstances of squalor, overcrowding and unpleasantness which would do justice to a cattle market. Any Deputy seeing that system in operation could not possibly say that the Circuit Court is a suitable venue for the trial of a rape case. The ordeal of any rape case is horrific for the complainant. Not only does she have to relive her ordeal, which she will never forget, but she has to do so in circumstances of stress and frequently while her credibility and her character are being tested and disparaged.

The Criminal Law (Rape) Act of 1981 went some way to protect the complainant from unfettered cross-examination as to her sexual history. It did not go far enough. It also went a considerable way to protect her anonymity and that of the accused unless he is acquitted. There has been a suggestion that such cross-examination must never be permitted. While I agree that it is rarely justified it cannot be excluded on a priori grounds from relevance in every case. There are cases in which it can be relevant and a Statute which prevented an accused from bringing relevant matters into issue would not be constitutional.

There is, however, room for greater protection of the complainant's privacy and while indictable crime must be prosecuted at the suit of the Director of Public Prosecutions in the name of the people under the Constitution, the Constitution seems to preclude counsel for any witness or any alleged victim from taking part in the prosecution of a person accused. I can see no reason for a separate legal representative not being permitted to protect the interests of an alleged rape victim where, in the absence of jury, permission is being sought to cross-examine her as to her previous sexual history under section 3 of the Criminal Law (Rape) Act of 1981. This area should be the subject matter of immediate proposals of the Minister. There are many other ways in which the ordeal of a rape victim can be mitigated in terms of investigative procedure, counselling, explanation and comfort without falling into the trap of coaching witnesses. Here again, there is need for procedural reform.

I want to add that a society which establishes and maintains by law funds to compensate persons who suffer personal injuries at the hands of motorists, insured and uninsured, but which abolishes the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal to compensate victims of brutal crime, including rape, is a sick society, with very strange priorities indeed. That tribunal, which was a tangible expression of the State's constitutional obligation to vindicate the personal rights to life and bodily integrity of a citizen, should not have been abolished by the last administration and should be immediately restored by this one.

There are many other things I wanted to say but I appreciate that time is running against me. There should be provision to reform the law so as to enable the prosecution to appeal inadequate sentences. There should be provision to enable the prosecution to appeal every case where a decision of law is made against them, even if the accused is subsequently acquitted by a jury and not by direction. I want to pay tribute to the voluntary bodies involved in the whole rape issue. I want to pay tribute to Deputy Gemma Hussey whose Bill on criminal law rape brought about the Criminal Law (Rape) Act, 1981. People who call for rape cases to be heard in camera would do well to reflect on the events of the past fortnight to see whether any of things which they say are wrong in the system of prosecution would have come to light if rape cases were held behind closed doors.

I am not naive. I have seen what has happened in this House during the past week. I heard Deputy Barrett apply for this debate. I saw the circumstances in which he was encouraged to do so on the Order of Business when it was agreed by the Taoiseach to have these statements. I am not naive as to the circumstances which gave rise to changing the longstanding rule of this House today against the clear indication of a former Ceann Comhairle and against what I can only divine as the view of the Chair as to the wisdom of the situation. I am not naive, but that an ambush was laid here today to try to embarrasss me——

You fancy yourself if you think I go around worrying about you.

I came into politics with my integrity, both professional and personal, in one piece and I will leave politics with my professional and personal reputation in one piece.

I am not one bit concerned about you.

How vile and mean tactics such as have been employed by Deputy Barrett today against the wishes of senior people in his party are contemptible and I throw them back in his face. I regard the rest of his party who are concerned with the issue of rape as ill-served by this petty politicking and utterly groundless attack on my personnel and professional character.

You really fancy yourself to say that I was worrying about you.

I regard this as a disgraceful chapter in Fine Gael's circumstances. I know that that party in the last election used to phrase "breaking out of a vicious circle". If the ethics and the standards of Deputy Barrett are anything to go by, I can tell him I am glad I broke out of the vicious circle in which he holds sway. He is a disgrace to this Parliament and to everybody who worked hard for his party to put him where he is. His behaviour here today is nothing short of contemptible.

And those who are conniving with him.

I assure the Minister——

On a point of order, a very serious allegation has been made: first, that I connived with the Taoiseach and the Government of the day to bring about a situation where a special debate would be held in the Dáil so that I would have the opportunity of having a go at a member of the Progressive Democrats.

The Deputy has already made his contribution.

At no time did I consult with the Taoiseach; at no time did I consider seeking this debate so that I could have a go at Deputy McDowell.

The Deputy has made his point.

I did not even know of Deputy McDowell's involvement——

The Deputy is eroding the time——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Bobby Molloy a few years ago came in here——

Deputy Barrett is now flagrantly abusing the privilege of the House in respect of a motion of very limited time.

Deputy McDowell really fancies himself if he thinks I am concerned about him.

I have limited time to finish my contribution but I am aware that Deputy Barrett was facilitated in this matter by the Government.

That is totally untrue.

I am aware of the motivation behind it and I will not be deflected from any remarks I have made to this House. I will stand over everything I have said both inside and outside the House. I will not have people who, with base political motives one way or the other, attack me in my professional role or as a Deputy in this House. I am taking this issue seriously. I am not prepared, and will never be prepared, to be trampled down by dirty tactics such as were tried here today. I say that to the Minister for communication to whomever he wants.

I am aware that when the Minister was away yesterday the holding of this debate and the decision to get around the sub judice rule as was done today was orchestrated from the Taoiseach's Department. I will never forget that and I will never forget what Deputy Barrett did today. I know I have nothing to be ashamed of. I know that my attendance at that funeral had nothing to do with Paul Carney's presence or absence in the Cavan rape case.

I thought we were not discussing the Cavan rape case.

On a point of order, is it in order for a Deputy to make accusations which seem to have no basis here. Is it in order for Deputies to continually make assertions about points which seem to arise simply from the embarrassment of the Deputies?

The Deputy may be afforded an opportunity of making his contribution.

I think I should be afforded your protection, a Cheann Comhairle from attacks like that.

The purpose for which this debate was called and allowed by the House was to discuss matters of a very serious nature involving people's lives, their past lives, the conduct of their future lives and the serious situation which affects all too many women in this country. It is a disgrace that the level of the debate so far on this matter has been debased and reduced to a status of personalities of this counsel or that counsel or whether it involved any Member of this House or not. It has been a most unedifying spectacle and I am sure it will do nothing to enhance the viewpoint of this House in the eyes of the public who are watching this situation and whose interest has been aroused by the conduct of what happened at the Cavan rape case. We in this House would be advised to apply ourselves to the issues involved and what has transpired here. Is there a lesson to be learned from this issue? How are we to ensure there will be no repetition of this? What improvements and amendments are necessary in the law governing rape? What should be the conduct of the legal profession in general who are involved in this case? Those are the issues which should be discussed, not the personalities involved or the petty politicking backwards and forwards between one party and another to seek to make political capital out of this most serious and personal issue.

The Cavan rape case which was reported recently has been the subject of a great deal of public disquiet and anxiety. The coverage given to the case in the media has highlighted a serious problem of management and organisation which must be addressed as a matter of urgency. There is no point in any of us in this House seeking to make a scapegoat out of any particular individual involved. I would not wish to do that but in so far as serious deficiencies in the system have been exposed we must address these as a matter of urgency.

The crime of rape is one of the most serious and vile crimes. For too long a blind eye has been turned to the urgent need to make reforms in the law in this area. As a consequence, there is too much evidence already that victims of this crime do not come forward to seek redress and that there are perpetrators of this crime who have never been charged. The only way this can be changed is by giving victims of the crime absolute confidence that they will be properly and well treated and that their cases will be vigorously and efficiently prosecuted.

One of the great tragedies of the publicity surrounding this case is that it will undermine that confidence and no doubt will lead to victims of rape failing to come forward to make the complaint and ensure that the appalling crime committed on them is prosecuted. In some situations the victims of this crime will be faced with a choice. Should they suffer on alone and in silence or take what has become a risk that they will now believe is substantial, that if they go forward they will be made to endure more trauma and humiliation? What we are talking about here to a major extent is perception. In so far as the present case is concerned it would not be proper for me or any other Member to attempt to pass judgment on a case where a jury took ten minutes to reach their decision. It cannot be our purpose to attempt to question that decision but we must concern ourselves with the perceptions that have arisen from the case and we must not ignore the fact that this case which has achieved much publicity is one of several recent cases which have caused public disquiet and a loss of confidence in the system which is supposed to ensure that justice is delivered to the victims of rape. We could just as easily be talking about two recent cases where suspended sentences were imposed on persons convicted of rape, even though they were cases which attracted little publicity.

The victims of rape in criminal prosecutions ought to be entitled to have separate independent legal representation at the hearing and their counsel and solicitor should be fully entitled to participate in that trial, to make submissions to the jury, address the judge and cross-examine witnesses. There is no reason that could not be committed by an amendment to the law. I know it runs counter to the legal system we have had until now but it applies in other jurisdictions. It would do something towards giving a degree of confidence and support to victims of rape who at present are only witnesses in these prosecutions. There is an old saying that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done. I cannot comment on whether justice was done but certainly the public perception is that justice was not seen to be done. The public perception is that when counsel are retained by the State to appear in a prosecution, they should be there to prosecute that case. It has been pointed out by Mr. Justice Roe and Mr. Justice McWilliam that a junior counsel with ability and experience can conduct a case. That is perfectly true but if the State decides that the seriousness of the crime committed requires the attendance of a senior counsel and the State is prepared to go to the expense of retaining a senior counsel, then surely the senior counsel should be there. If his attendance was not required, if a junior counsel had the ability and skill, there would not be a need to retain the services of a senior counsel. This concept of barristers being retained and being there for a very short period in the case is not a new complaint against members of the Bar. It is ancient. It goes back for well over a century and one can recall the parody on the subject in one of Gilbert and Sullivan's operettas where the judge was reciting his experience as a member of the Bar and says "my learned profession I will never disgrace, by taking a fee with a grin on my face, when I have not been there to attend the case, said I to myself said I". We must recall that that was written by Mr. Gilbert who was a barrister. This is not new.

I accept Mr. Justice McWilliam's statement that in this case the guidelines laid down by the Bar Counsel were complied with but it is time that those guidelines were changed. In the moral context those guidelines cannot any longer be accepted. It is not acceptable to members of the public, and that has been made clear, that a person is retained to do a job and is not there to fulfil his task. I am disappointed with the reaction of the Bar Counsel to this. The blasé stance they have taken when they say that no further action is necessary on this issue is totally unacceptable. That is an incredible reaction to a case where so much concern has been expressed and where it is obvious that, as a result, trust in the law has been placed at risk.

The reaction of the Bar Counsel in the case gives rise to the question as to how much longer the elite professions can be allowed to police themselves and the system they operate. Inquiries in this matter should be independent and decisions on this issue ought to be independent and not from within the profession. The real tragedy would arise if we in this House were to decide like the Bar Counsel that no further action is necessary. Action is necessary and possibly on a number of fronts if situations like this are to be prevented from recurring and if confidence is to be restored in the system. Some substantial action is necessary. A number of areas need to be examined. First, the question of availability of counsel must be addressed. I do not know if it would have made any difference to the outcome of this case if the experienced senior counsel retained had been present. That can only be a matter of speculation. I understand that a very experienced defence counsel appeared for the accused. So far as I know, he found it possible to be present throughout the hearing. The major work of a prosecuting counsel in the case would be the cross-examination of the accused and the final address to the jury. Unfortunately, we have not been able to get a transcript of the case, but as I understand it, the accused was not cross-examined by the leader in the case nor was there an address to the jury by the leader at the conclusion of the case. The presence of a senior counsel throughout the case might have made some difference, but that is not the point. The point is that the perception in the eyes of the public is that something was amiss here by that absence. Here was a case where one of the most experienced criminal lawyers in the country was retained by the defence, no doubt at great expense, and the feeling is that a particular counsel can sway a jury and can influence the outcome of the case. That is why skilled lawyer services are so much in demand. The public perception is that the outcome of the case may have been different had the case been prosecuted by the full presence of the full team of prosecuting counsel.

The question of the Courts Act 1981 must be looked at. Its effect was to remove from the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court all cases of serious crime other than treason or homicide. We should look again at the question of providing for the trial of rape cases in the Central Criminal Court. That court is staffed by one or two judges of the High Court for an entire law term. All cases of sexual abuse should be tried there. There would be a consistency of personnel which one does not get in a Circuit Court trial because there are different Circuit Court judges in counties up and down the country. To have such cases tried in the Central Criminal Court would have the advantage that there would be consistency in the evolution of a pattern of sentencing. One of the most serious allegations often made about the attitude of the courts to rape concerns the lack of a pattern in the way in which cases are treated. There is enough evidence to show that this allegation is justified in many cases.

If some good can come out of this case it may go some way to mitigate the trauma suffered by the victim in the case. Nothing can ever make up to her for what she has already suffered, but we cannot wash our hands and say the matter is out of our control. If there are practical steps open to us as legislators which would enable us to ensure that victims of this horrible crime will at least have confidence that justice will be done, we must take those practical steps. We believe that there are such steps, and we owe it to the victim in this case and to all other victims to take them.

We must give serious consideration to leaving open the possibility of appeal by the prosecution in certain circumstances in criminal cases. There should be an overall concept that, where a superior court held that the trial of first instance was unsatisfactory for one reason or another, it should be possible to order a retrial. A frequent ground of appeal on the part of an accused is that the trial was unsatisfactory for one reason or another. I do not say that the door to that end should necessarily be thrown wide open, but in certain circumstances when certain considerations apply — I have not time to discuss the minutiae of that here — in this jurisdiction, as in other jurisdictions, an appeal at the suit of the prosecution should be open to the State.

I should like to express satisfaction that the House has taken the decision to set aside for the time being the sub judice rule or practice that has existed within the House. Deputy Mac Giolla raised with you, Sir, the fact which must be underlined again, that in our Standing Orders there is nothing that prohibits this House from discussing a matter that might be under consideration by the courts at any time. That is not to say we should not be careful and exercise discretion in remarks we make so that we are not seen to be in any way usurping the functions of another arm of Government. Nonetheless, in the past the rule has been applied too often as a means of stifling debate rather than involving the work of this House in considering matters of importance such as the recent Cavan case.

It is regrettable that, having taken a very good decision to embark on a discussion of the implications of that case, we have been entertained to the spectacle we saw here this morning.

Very serious issues have arisen from the case and, in expressing regret, let me say that it is equally regrettable that the Minister in his opening remarks does not appear to have taken the opportunity to inform the House on what he or his Government might consider doing in the whole area of law surrounding the conduct of rape cases and the law relating to the proofs required in those cases.

None of us in this House was, as far as I am aware, present for the proceedings of the trial. No copies of the transcript have been made available, so we have had to rely on newspaper reports for our information. I do not know how comprehensive these reports are or, for instance, if the reporters present were there throughout all of the trial. Any comments we make must be made subject to this qualification. However, we know from the newspaper reports and from matters that have emerged since the trial that serious and important questions have been raised by the conduct of the case and it is good that this Dáil has been given the opportunity to consider them.

The primary matter of concern at the end of the Cavan rape case debacle is that a most heinous, vicious rapist of an innocent woman has gone undetected and unpunished. There is no legal basis for an appeal in a case like this and, despite the understandably strong feelings it has aroused, it would be creating a very dangerous precedent to suggest that the jury verdict of not guilty should be subject to appeal. There is now, in effect, no prospect of the culprit being brought to justice and made answerable for one of the most vicious, brutal and degrading incidents of assault and rape ever to come before our courts. Nobody can feel happy about this and nobody — the legal profession, the Garda, or we as legislators — can escape a share of the blame for this unsatisfactory situation.

While most of the public and media attention has focused on the performance of the legal profession, there is a need to look at the manner in which the case was investigated and presented by the Garda. I understand that as far as the Garda are concerned the case is now closed. Presumably they thought that they had apprehended the right man, but the case they produced failed to satisfy the jury that this was so. The Garda rested the main part of their case on an alleged voluntary admission that was taken from the accused in such circumstances that it is fair to assume that the trial judge and jury had no regard to it. I believe there is an obligation on the Garda authorities to investigate the manner in which this case was presented to the court in order to avoid a repeat of the mistakes undoubtedly made. I hope the Minister will indicate in his reply whether he has in any way requisitioned an inquiry of the Garda authorities. Undoubtedly, mistakes were made which were open and criticised in the course of the trial and — it is not unreasonable to infer — led to the jury within a very short time clearly indicating that the manner in which the statement was taken from the accused was not acceptable to them as a jury and that they placed no reliance whatever on what was presented to them by the prosecution as a voluntarily made statement of admission.

Respect for an accused persons's right to legal advice and his right to make a voluntary statement in conditions of ease are crucial to a fair and proper investigation of crimes and these principles must be reasserted and re-established so that they are observed in all cases, especially in serious and emotional cases. In many cases the failure of the gardaí to observe these requirements undermines their own case. The legal training gardaí receive at the moment is at best perfunctory. The recent report of the Garda Training Committee calls for a more comprehensive training scheme for Garda recruits, particularly in the area of legal studies, and I hope this report will be acted upon as soon as possible. It is understood that the Minister and his Department are at present considering the implications of the report and we have been promised an early response to it. I hope the Minister will now appreciate even more the importance of this response and implement the recommendations of that report at the earliest opportunity.

This case has led to a number of calls from Members of this House for the establishment of a Dáil committee who would have some sort of right of review of the workings of the office of the DPP. These calls are often based on little real knowledge or insight into the operations of the DPP's office and in some cases are a smokescreen for those who would like to re-establish political control over the office of the DPP and decisions as to when prosecutions should be initiated or terminated. While the office of the DPP, like any other body or institution, are liable from time to time to make mistakes, generally they have performed their duties well and conscientiously.

Politicians have a duty to legislate and there is a great deal of work to be done in the area of court procedures and criminal law reform, enough to keep us active and involved for many years to come without making efforts to restrict the independence of the DPP. The principle that the director should be independent and free from political control was established when responsibility for initiating prosecutions was transferred away from the Attorney General who is, in effect, a member of the Government. There should be no going back to the old system which was open to so much political abuse. However, this does not mean that the office of the DPP prosecuting on behalf of the people should not be more fothcoming in explaining the basis upon which decisions are reached, especially in cases of public controversy. One positive effect of this appalling rape case is that it is likely to lead to new pressure for reform of the law relating to rape and its investigation and trial procedures in rape cases.

The Rape Crisis Centre have campaigned for a number of years for reform of these areas but they have been fobbed off by successive Governments. Their main demands, which we support, include proper aid to and counselling of rape victims, including independent legal assistance at trial stage, full consultation by victims with the Director of Public Prosecutions office or counsel before the trial begins, greater restriction on questions relating to the previous sexual history of the victim and the extension of the definition of rape to include rape within marriage and rape by physical object. In addition we must give particular consideration to the whole question of the treatment of sexual offenders once placed in our prisons. It is very unsatisfactory that they are merely sentenced and locked away without any effort being made at their rehabilitation for their inevitable return to society. We must have particular regard to the question of the abolition of compensation for victims of rape by reason of the effective closure by the previous Government of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal.

Those are some of the issues that we, as legislators, should now be addressing. A further concern with the Cavan case must centre on the standard of practice and consideration shown to trial and criminal practice generally by the legal profession. It is no surprise that the code of conduct of the Bar Council allows barristers to slip in and out of cases to facilitate their multiple case practice and, by definition, greater fee-earning opportunities. One important question raised by the case which the Director of Public Prosecutions should answer in his inquiry is: if a junior counsel of 17 years standing was retained and was considered capable of carrying the prosecution for two whole days why was there need for a senior counsel at all? The fact that the Bar Council retains a code of conduct that allows for less than the best standard in the prosecution of cases on behalf of the people of Ireland is not acceptable and should not be allowed go unchanged.

The report produced by Judge McWilliam cannot be considered to have adequately answered the questions raised by this case and will do nothing to restore public confidence in the legal system. The legal profession, as a whole — and I do not absolve solicitors from their share of the blame — have been party to the diminution of standards in criminal law matters over the years. Such problems have been thrown into sharp relief by the recent Cavan case. There is an obligation on all involved in the conduct of criminal cases to look again at their standards of codes and practice to ascertain in what way they need to be improved and made more relevant. This includes the Director of Public Prosecutions, as it appears by implication from the Bar Council's code of practice and the report of Judge McWilliam that the absence of counsel during the trial did have the Director's consent.

One final matter which should receive urgent attention is that of the level at which this case was heard. Proceedings in this case were taken and heard in the Circuit Criminal Court. This was directly as a result of the provisions of the Courts Act, 1981, by reason of which almost all cases other than murder and treason are now heard at the level of Circuit Court. For example, in England it would almost certainly have been heard at the level of the Central Criminal Court, the Old Bailey. There is a need to restore to the Central Criminal Court — which has the equivalent jurisdiction of the High Court here — its jurisdiction to deal with serious offences such as rape. This would help to ensure the status of the case in its presentation before the courts and would ensure that the prosecution and defence in these matters is conducted according to the highest possible standards.

None of the parties involved in the handling of this case — the Garda, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the lawyers concerned — can be happy with its conclusion. As legislators we cannot afford to be self-righteous or complacent. It is not sufficient for us to wallow in the misery, unhappiness or mistakes of others. We have a great deal of responsibility in this case and a lot of work to do in the area of reform of the law of rape. We must ensure that the circumstances of the Cavan rape case are not repeated.

It is very definitely as a non-member of the legal profession I wish to make my contribution, rather as a representative of the public, as a member of the public. I speak mainly because of public disquiet of long standing. Reported activities of some members of the legal profession have occasioned this discussion today. There have been worries expressed about some conduct. Members' contributions this morning have done absolutely nothing to dissuade me of the opinion that there are questions to be answered. I want to emphasise my non-legal status because it appears to the public that when there are complaints about or attacks on the legal profession there is an immediate closing of ranks and that that closing of ranks appears to cut across the political persuasion of those involved. There are very serious questions to be posed and answered. Deputy Taylor struck the right note when he said that it is the future with which we must deal. We must ascertain precisely where we are going, raising questions of a nature that will ensure the position is improved in the future.

I do not think we can confine our remarks to what has been described on the Order Paper as the Cavan rape case. The one regret I have is that it took the horrific happenings, if you like, torture, of the victim in this case to present us with an opportunity to speak in this House and address ourselves to this type of problem. Already there were allegations this morning that people tried to back out and all the rest. I do not know what is behind such arguments. I welcome the opportunity to speak on these issues. Bearing in mind the guidance of the Ceann Comhairle, I will not be specific on the Cavan case. However, I should like to pose a few questions about it. Indeed I should like to broaden the discussion somewhat. I concur with the remarks of the two previous speakers that there is need for immediate change of the laws appertaining to rape trials. These laws must be changed immediately in the public interest. Yet, it would be totally useless to change the rules if they can be flouted, breached and bent to suit the administration generally.

That takes me back to the question of public accountability on the part of the legal profession. There appears to be absolutely none. I say that as a member of the general public. I believe there is a public conception of a total lack of public responsibility on the part of the legal profession. It appears that one section of society see themselves as above question. Of course trial by one's peers, self-questioning within any organisation, is a very good method of operation if one can get away with it, if one is not responsible to the public, if one does not have to answer. I suppose the greatest facility of the legal profession is learning to put up a defence, to keep talking until the point has been lost or until one has conditioned people's minds to accept one's viewpoint.

I should like to broaden the discussion somewhat. There are a number of matters about which I have been worried and I may avail of this opportunity to voice them. These worries are about the legal profession, the Judiciary, the courts system generally. The first aspect that worries me is the air of mystique and self-importance that seems to prevail. Indeed, I know there are members of my party who would question my right to make a contribution today, whose attitude would be, how dare I come in to speak on an issue relating to legal matters.

That type of attitude has led to a situation in which people have been able to get away with wrong-doings, with what is seen by the public as malpractice. They have been able to operate with a very close, friendly relationship between themselves and we must question that. The rest of the people should be entitled to make a contribution and to question what they do without fear of libel action, slander and all the other hedges that are put up. I heard this morning how this can be played about with. I do not know the rights and wrongs of the allegations made by the first and second speakers. They spoke for half an hour and in the end I did not know who was right or who was wrong. If this debate was argued outside this House it would cost at least £1,000 a day.

It is time that we questioned some of the practices involved and some of them have been questioned today. Why should you have a senior counsel on a case if a junior one will suffice? This applies right down the line. One of the interesting things in relation to any court case is the number of people involved. The legal teams are now competing with the various sporting teams because there will soon be as long a list of legal people involved in a case as would be involved in a sporting team. These practices should be questioned and we have the opportunity today to raise some of those questions.

There has been a total lack of consistency in the judicial system and this has been referred to today. This situation arises because some people seem to be above question. In one part of the country a case can be tried, a rape case or any other case, and for that offence somebody may get a smack on the wrist whereas in another part of the country a person can be sent to jail for an indefinite period of time for committing the same offence. That is totally wrong. There seems to be no acceptable standard within the legal profession in this regard. We are always told that it is left to the discretion of the trying justice. All justices are of a certain calibre. In the past there were extreme cases when people let themselves down so badly that action had to be taken and even the legal profession could not walk away from that fact.

There is now a new game of spot the technicality. There was a recent case concerning shipping where the legal costs came close to £1 million. It appears that even the interpretation of a single word can now be used to gain a couple of thousand pounds in defending a case and also to turn justice on its head. I ask members of the legal profession in particular to address themselves to some of the points which I raise today. I am the layman, the member of the public, the person who is affected. I dare not take on the legal profession publicly because I have very limited financial funds. The procedure for conducting business has been brought into question by this case. In some cases the lengthy team of people, the public servants and others involved, can be called back six, seven or eight times to deal with the same case. I assume each time a case is referred back there is finance involved and the people are paid. Perhaps they do the work for free until the case is referred back but I suspect they are paid and very often at public expense. This is happening and there is absolutely no excuse for it.

I wish to raise the question as to who is running this country for the people. Is it the Judiciary or is it the Executive? I raise that question because I have compiled a list of about 16 cases ranging over the past seven or eight years in which decisions of the Judiciary at various levels have cost a minimum of £650 million and in many other cases there is unlimited potential for public costs. I go back again to the question of responsibility to the public. If legislation is passed in this House funds should be made available to put into practice what is in that legislation and it should be passed with that in mind.

Judicial decisions are made and it appears that some of the people involved pride themselves on taking on the Executive. They want to be seen to be super-liberal or any other description which is put on them. They appear, for whatever frivolous reason, to find against the Government or the Executive. Before anybody starts reaching for his pen I want to say that I subscribe to the concept of an independent Judiciary but it must be responsible and consistent and it must relate to happenings in this State. The public conception is that the judicial system has gone off the rails and I cannot fault them for that. More weight seems to be given to legal technicalities, often of the very flimsiest nature. Not alone is there immediate funding for frivolous cases but it will be of benefit because the reporting of it will show how well the person fared, but eventually the State and the public suffer.

I question the sincerity — I am careful in saying this — of many of the statements made in relation to suggested changes. If the workload of the members is to be cut down, there appears to be a reluctance on the part of the legal profession to agree with them. It would be quite acceptable if there were expanded facilities, more hours and more cases to be dealt with. It seems to come back to finance, unfortunately. I ask people to try to forget this when legislating. Members of the legal profession who are Members of either House of the Oireachtas should have the interest of the public in mind at all times. If they do not, the public will refuse to accept them. Essential ingredients in our legal system are credibility and public confidence. They have been disappearing so rapidly, particularly in the past seven or eight years, that it is frightening.

We saw in America ten or 15 years ago what we thought was a shocking situation in which members of the public would watch a person, young or old, being mugged, robbed or beaten and would just walk past. We said that could never happen in Ireland. Recently in Cork a professional person saw an elderly woman being harassed and attacked by young thugs. He put his children in his car nearby, went back and sorted out the problem by knocking out one of these people. For his good deed he ended up in court and was fined £50. If that kind of attitude prevails we will have the same situation here as they have in America. We are heading in that direction and who can blame the public? They will walk past and say: "Why bother? Why get involved? I will be brought before somebody and depending on whether he is having a bad day or a good day I may suffer."

I ask members of the legal profession present today not to blind us with technicalities but to simplify matters and to listen to what I, as a member of the public, am saying. It is easy to say there is a growing lack of confidence in politicians but there is certainly a lack of confidence in the legal profession and in the courts system and if that continues we will all be in a very sad state. They should change their attitudes and try to serve the public. There is general support in this area but it is being eroded very rapidly.

Deputy Barnes rose.

Deputy Paddy Cooney.

Not one woman has been allowed to speak on this matter.

When the call for this debate arose originally I was extremely apprehensive about the appropriateness and the propriety of such a call to this House to, in effect, review a decision of the courts. That is how the call came across, and that is how it was made initially, inspired by dissatisfaction that a horrific crime had gone unpunished.

My sense of worry about that has been somewhat allayed by the universal acceptance among those who have spoken of the decision by the jury as being final, not being subject to criticism and, above all, not being subject to review. If we are to have a healthy democracy we must be prepared to live under the rule of law. The rule of law implies that our courts, in all their aspects and in all their operations, are independent, that they will act the same for all citizens and that the same régime will be applied for all citizens. That is the kernel of our democracy.

As I said, I was apprehensive that this procedure was going to turn into a witch hunt against the courts. Undoubtedly it is to some extent turning into a witch hunt against the judicial and legal system. This is an unsatisfactory forum for doing that because the time available for contributions is too short and the issues have not been isolated.

With regard to the case that provoked this series of statements, it has to be said that in common with all other cases before a jury, only the members of the jury, together with the presiding judge, can make a totally objective assessment of the evidence that comes before them. While the legal teams, whether for the prosecution or the defence, should be objective, it would be contrary to nature for them to be totally objective, but only a jury who hear the evidence viva voce, who listen to the cross-examination and who can watch the witnesses, are in a position to make a decision.

In this case the jury, having sat through several days of trial proceedings, came to their decision in an extremely short period of time, which tends to suggest that the case against the accused person was significantly lacking in weight. One has to assume there was clearly, on the documents available to the prosecuting authorities, a prima facie case; otherwise it would have been a horrific injustice to have laid the indictment at all. Nevertheless, the weight of evidence was seriously lacking.

Immediately a horrific case goes unpunished and the accused is established as an innocent person, understandably, because of the sense of public unease, there is a hunt for a scapegoat. We have had a number of scapegoats proposed to this House for consideration today. I think that is wrong because this is not the forum in which to engage in that sort of exercise. Some Deputies were calling for the transcript. I read in the paper, and the Deputy may have been wrongly reported, that the objective in getting the transcript was to read the judge's charges to the jury. Obviously he was going to be fingered as a scapegoat.

The police have been fingered as scapegoats because they have not succeeded in securing a conviction in this case. That is not to say they should have, because that implies that the person who was acquitted is the guilty party and there is no evidence to suggest that. In a perfect world the police would always be able to adduce perfect evidence obtained in the most perfect circumstances to secure a conviction. But we do not live in that sort of world. The main thrust of the scapegoat seeking process has been to put the finger of guilt on one of the team prosecuting for the State. Again, because of the very serious considerations which were put to this House, mainly by Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick before we commenced proceedings, I do not intend to comment on that issue.

Arising out of what Deputy Dennehy said — he raised a lot of matters for the legal profession — I will make one point with regard to the role of counsel and the role of legal teams. There are differing capacities within the legal profession and within the profession of barristers. Some are particularly skilled in the technical work of drafting and analysing pleadings; others may have a particular bent or skill in cross examinations; and others may have a talent for addressing juries in an impressive way. When a team is being put together the idea is to have on the team representatives of all these skills, not all of which are required all the time during the conduct of a trial or the hearing of a particular case. That is one important aspect of our system of legal representation which tends to be overlooked. One has to bear that in mind before one looks for scapegoats or makes judgments in this House, judgments that inevitably cannot be full judgments because they cannot be based on what took place during that trial.

The only people who can make total judgments are the jury and the presiding judge who are there for the entire trial and who hear the entire evidence viva voce. No newspaper report and no transcript of the evidence can substitute for that experience. Any attempt by this House or by anybody in it to lay blame in the absence of that experience must be faulty and to compare a 15 minute debate in this House with the Supreme Court is totally inaccurate. So far as reviewing the trial court by this House is concerned this is obviously fallacious.

As regards public confidence in the judical system, if this is to be constantly criticised in the terms Deputy Dennehy used — he spoke about frivolous reasons for finding against the Government — that is a most serious statement to make with regard to judicial decisions. Statements of that type repeated here or in the press inevitably will undermine confidence in the judicial system.

We have lost our regard for the important constitutional principle of the division of powers. I mentioned the rule of law earlier, but an equally important safeguard for democracy is the existence of that principle and the honouring of that principle both in the letter and in the spirit. It is incumbent on this House, as one of the powers in the Constitution, not to trespass in the area of any of the others. The Minister for Justice said he thought the Dáil should have the opportunity to express its views on matters that can be, and which are being, widely discussed in the media and elsewhere.

Superficially that is an understandable approach. If a controversy is being aired, people are puzzled as to why it is not being discussed here, but if the matter being aired is tantamount to a review of the courts, that is a very good reason why it should not be aired in this Chamber. Matters of public concern should be dealt with here, provided they are within the constitutional competence of this House but I suggest that for the House to engage in the exercise it has engaged in this morning is not within its constitutional competence. Certainly, it is not within the spirit of its constitutional competence. It may be within the letter of it but we have a greater obligation than that. We have an obligation to preserve the spirit of the Constitution as well and for the House to attempt to review a judicial process is, in my opinion, transgressing that constitutional requirement.

I should like to refer to the point raised by Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick at the outset of the proceedings this morning. He pointed out that for the first time in 65 years the House has decided to set aside the sub judice requirement and he said this was a matter of fundamental importance for the rights of all citizens. We may say that this only relates to one case and that it will never happen again but all of us know that, human nature being what it is, once the first breach in a fundamental principle is made, once the small initial opening is made, it becomes easier and easier to justify subsequent infringements of that rule. I should like to echo his warning to the House and express the hope that this will be the first and the very last time that that fundamental rule will be breached. That rule has within it the spirit of protecting the rights of individuals, the rights of citizens. After all, the prime concern of any Parliament must be to ensure that the rights of individuals are protected and vindicated. We must not allow ourselves, no matter how emotional the issue or how much public concern there may be about it, to be deflected from essential issues of principle. I have to say that today's proceedings were unfortunate.

It is important and significant that we have this debate. We need to address the need for changes in the Act dealing with the offence of rape. The sooner we as a Government can bring forward an amendment to the 1981 Act the sooner the type of problems which arose in the case under discussion, and which arise constantly in rape trials, can be addressed. I do not intend to take my 15 minutes because many other Members want to contribute to the debate but I should like to make a number of points. We need guidelines laid down in regard to sentencing here particularly in regard to sensitive cases. I am not saying that those guidelines should be statutory but the legal profession would be well served in addressing this matter — as they have done across the water — as soon as possible. That might help to alleviate difficulties that arise at present such as those referred to by Deputy Dennehy and others. They should try to restore confidence by the public in the Judiciary and the legal profession.

We must ask the legal profession to have a close look at the code of conduct under which they operate so that we do not have a repeat of what arose in the unfortunate case under discussion. It is not a matter for the State to lay down statutory conditions but it is important that the code of conduct is looked at immediately in the light of the allegations made in this case. I am aware that the Joint Committee on Women's Rights, which I chaired, spent a considerable time dealing with the whole area of sexual violence. We were supported by all political parties and we produced a comprehensive report which is the basic framework for legislation in that area. I am aware that the matter has been referred to the Commission on Law Reform and that the Minister for Justice is giving it the highest priority. I should like to appeal to the members of the commission to bring forward a report dealing with this matter as quickly as possible. If that is done I am hopeful that the Government will be able to bring forward in the next Dáil session an amendment to the 1981 Act that will grapple with the difficulties that have arisen since it was passed.

I will not go into the other areas referred to by Deputies such as the definition of rape because they were well documented in the report of the joint committee. The recommendations of the Commission on Law Reform and of the joint committee will help the Government to produce legislation dealing with this matter in the autumn. I appeal to the Minister for Justice to spare no effort in his Department to ensure that his civil servants treat this as a matter of urgency.

I should like to draw the Chair's attention to the fact that he is about to call the third speaker from Fine Gael and that we have had three speakers from Fianna Fáil. Will the Chair indicate when I will get an opportunity to contribute?

I hope the Deputy will get an opportunity. I should like to remind the House that we have 25 minutes remaining for statements. If Deputy Barnes, the next speaker, insists on taking her full time, she will have 15 minutes but if she does not do that I will be free to call other Members. I will review the matter when Deputy Barnes has concluded.

I will not take my full time in order to allow other Members to contribute. I wish other Members had adopted that attitude and thus prevented a last minute rush. I am delighted to have an opportunity to make a short statement on this issue. I regret that it has taken a violent and serious crime against a woman to get us two hours in the House to debate the question of rape. In the course of his statement the Minister said he did not have time to go into the dreadful offences that are perpetrated against women in society but we could bring in legislation that is needed to change attitudes towards women, and thus prevent such offences against them. This is the most extreme and violent reflection of how women can be treated in society but there are other areas where women are treated in a less violent but in as exploitative a form in society. Legislation should cover all those areas. It is unfortunate that it usually takes a crisis, a directive from the EC or a judgment by the European Court of Human Rights before we address any of those areas.

In his contribution Deputy Cooney suggested we should not make the legal profession a scapegoat and I am sure some Members will say we should not do that to legislators but where does the responsibility lie? Where does the buck stop? There are two issues involved. The first is the failure to reform legislation dealing with rape that leaves women in an unsupported position inside and outside our courts. The second is our inability to move quickly as legislators to introduce reforms in the law and in the legal profession. I am not going to make anyone a scapegoat this morning because I am part of that process but it should not take a crisis, it should not take human scapegoats and sacrifices for us to bring in civilised and socially just legislation. Nobody is attempting to review a judicial proceeding. We are trying to deal with the implications of one such proceeding and to do something constructive about it instead of castigating one another or trying to score cheap political points.

Because there is such a shortage of time I want to put two practical suggestions to the House. The first is to express my disappointment at the fact that the Bar Council having recorded that there has not been a breach of their rules and procedures did not even hint that such procedures should be looked at. I do not hold Mr. Justice McWilliam responsible although as the man carrying out the task I had hoped he would have gone further. The matters which Deputy McDowell raised this morning were not referred to either, the squalor and the unbelievably difficult situation in which the law is carried out. If the legal profession really care about the law and the fact that nobody, including themselves, is above it and if, above all, they care about the administration of the law in regard to the victims who come before them, reform should start with them. They should be battering down the doors of this House to ensure that legislators bring about the kind of reforms, decency and civilised space people should have and a public perception that the law is not being just administered but administered fairly and justly. It does not matter how elitist the profession is or how protective it is of sub judice or anything else, there must be public perception that the law is just, that Deputies legislate to the best of their ability and, above all, that legal practitioners carry out the law properly. We need not talk about upholding archaic precedents and principles and allowing matters to be discussed on the Order of Business and so on if people are afraid to go to court or, if they do, that they consider they have not had a fair deal. It is up to all of us to take that seriously and this is really what we are debating. Let us hope it is only the beginning of a much longer process.

Deputy Dennehy called for an immediate change in regard to the laws on rape. For generations, women have been calling for changes. That is particularly so in this country and I have been part of that movement since 1973. We have been lobbying, working and giving sanctuary to those who were raped. We have been attempting, from the experience of the way women are treated in rape cases, to tell the legislators exactly what needs to be done. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights produced an all party, agreed list of recommendations which would go a long way towards improving the position in regard to rape. Where did that report go? It went to the Law Reform Commission. Where is it now? When will it see the light of day? This should be the beginning of a definite date by which we intend to address that legislation. An all party committee have spent a lot of time in getting submissions from the people who are most concerned, the Garda, the legal profession and those in the Rape Crisis Centre who give support and counselling to victims of rape. We have the agreement of all parties in this House. There is no point in setting up a joint Oireachtas committee and getting recommendations if we then send them off to another agency. The legal profession should ensure that everybody who has to go through the process of law will believe that nobody is above or outside it, that it is accessible to everyone and that it is administered fairly.

I would mention to Deputy Harney that Deputy Barry Desmond has the same hopes and anxieties as she had when I called Deputy Barnes.

I have been bouncing up and down in my seat since about 11.30 a.m. and I have similar expectations.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak and I will bear in mind the fact that other Deputies are anxious to contribute to this very important debate.

I am privileged to have an opportunity to speak in the debate and if it had not been for the course it took an hour and half ago I would have had a fuller opportunity, as spokesperson for the Progressive Democrats, to speak more fully and comprehensively than I will now on the issues involved. As Justice spokesperson for the Progressive Democrats, I have, in relation to the Cavan rape case, as I did in relation to several other cases over the past 18 months, expressed my outrage and annoyance at particular court decisions. I was never stopped from doing that by virtue of the fact that anybody might have been in any way connected with me. The remarks made earlier this morning by Deputy Seán Barrett to the effect that I kept my mouth shut for a week are inaccurate.

On the afternoon on which this case was reported I was contacted by Ken Whelan of The Irish Press. I spoke to him as I did to every single journalist who contacted me during the past ten days. I have made two full statements on this matter. I have said that I was outraged at the decision; I have said that there is need for changes in legislation in relation to rape; I have said that there is a need for changes in the regulations governing the practices of senior and junior counsel in cases; I have said that there is a need for the House and the Minister to investigate once and for all our legal, prosecution, trial and investigative procedures to see why in so many serious cases — sometimes involving death in mysterious circumstances — nobody is convicted. I have spoken out on all these cases unlike other spokespersons in the House. I have sought, by way of parliamentary question, to raise these matters. Indeed three weeks ago when the Minister for Justice was answering questions in this House I sought, by way of supplementary question, to ask him about the Molloy case. However, it was ruled out of order by the Chair and the Minister resorted, as previous Ministers have done, to telling me that he was not free to talk about individual cases.

This debate is very important for many reasons, especially to women who look to the House and the few women in it to try to ensure that the outdated laws in relation to rape legislation are changed as a matter of urgency. I was very pleased when the joint committee on women's rights, of which I was not a member, made unanimous suggestions last year in relation to rape legislation. I am disappointed that those recommendations were sent to the Law Reform Commission by the last Government. I have said in this House and outside it that I do not believe there was any need for the Law Reform Commission to examine them. Members of this House and Governments in particular use the Law Reform Commission to delay enacting legislation. If we as legislators are to take our job seriously we should begin the process of legislating and effecting change. We should not have to wait, as has happened so many times in the past, for the courts to force us to make certain changes.

I am sure many members of the legal profession and the Judiciary will rightly say that we are the kettle calling the pot black when we refer to the archaic procedures of the law. In many instances, there is nothing more archaic than the procedures in this House and it is about time we put our own house in order before we pontificate and lecture to others. There is a need for a barrister's Act because it is no longer good enough that an essentially private body should be able to decide on the code of procedure and practice followed, particularly in serious criminal cases. There is also a need for that Act to give jurisdiction to a fitness to practise clause to see whether certain people are fit to practise as is the case in relation to other professions. There should be proper safeguards for litigants. It is not good enough to leave that as a matter for a private body. In relation to rape, which brought about this discussion, I, like many Members of the House, feel that the Criminal Law (Rape) Act, 1981, should be repealed. I was privileged to be a member of the other House of the Oireachtas when that Bill was going through and I said then, as I say now, that it was not adequate. It was very shortsighted of us to introduce such limited legislation in relation to the whole area of rape.

It was very shortsighted of us to have introduced such limited legislation in relation to rape, which is a most awful, horrific crime against any woman. Those who have been subjected to this awful crime will agree with me that not even time will rid their minds of the awful ordeal they have gone through. I know many victims would prefer to hide their anguish and their trauma and obsession and live in fear, perhaps, of being raped again, rather than go through the ordeal they must go through at the moment, which is almost like a second rape in public — to have to go to the Garda to report the matter and then go before a court. I agree with them: it is a most humiliating and degrading exercise for any woman to have to go through the ordeal that some women must go through in Ireland.

I do not accept, as lawyers are sometimes apt to say, that in order to defend a person accused of rape a lawyer has to engage in the kind of questioning, including insulting remarks, that many of them see fit to engage in. I agree with the premise that a person is innocent until proven guilty — it is good that that is the case and that it will continue to be the case — but I should like to quote from an article by Lorna Donlon in this week's Sunday Tribune. She was reporting on a rape case in July 1986. She quoted the remarks of an eminent senior counsel who had said that his client, who had been found guilty of raping a 30 year old woman, had “given way to a human sexual urge” and that if he were a practising Catholic “it would mean 23 minutes in confession to wipe the slate clean”.

They are the kind of insulting remarks that do not do justice to the legal profession in Ireland. It is simply treating women as chattels and does not respect or understand the kind of humiliating ordeals many women have to go through. I want to see the law changed here to ensure, first, that women are given their own representation in these cases. At the moment the prosecution is there to present cases against accused persons: it is not there to defend the victims. It is a pity that rape victims do not have a right laid down in law to have their own representation to put forward their points of view and to ensure that victims will not have to go through the kind of ordeals they are expected to go through now.

I suggest that the definition of rape should be amended to include other forms of sexual assault. It is a degrading and awful experience for a woman to have to endure some of the procedures followed in relation to describing what is called "sexual assault". I submit that the law here falsely assumes that one form of sexual assault is more serious than another. I suggest there is a need to amend the law to cover the possibility of rape within marriage, though it may be difficult to prove. I suggest that anybody, by virtue of marital status, should not be prevented from being charged with the crime of rape. I suggest that a jury in a rape trial should be 50 per cent female and 50 per cent male. I say that because people of one gender might have a bias in favour of a member of their own gender.

In the whole conduct of rape trials, references to a women's past sexual history should not be allowed. It is a matter, I appreciate, for the presiding judge to decide whether that is relevant or not. Those operating in the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre tell me that as few as 30 per cent of those who go to them for attention go any further and report the cases to the Garda. That is a shame but I can well understand why it is so.

In relation to sentencing policy we need to lay down mandatory sentences for those found guilty of the crime of rape. At the moment it is not good enough that this should be left to the whims of individual judges. Many of these recommendations were made by the Women's Rights Committee, and the Government and the Minister for Justice as a matter of urgency should bring legislation before the House implementing those recommendations to give real effect to solutions of problems worrying many people throughout the country. If we are to learn from the publicity given to this and other areas, if we legislators are to do our job properly, and if the Minister is to do his, he will have to inquire why so many cases lead to decisions that allow members of the public rightly to believe that the law in this respect is simply a lottery, depending on the judge in court and the lawyers who represent victims. That is not good enough in a democratic society and it is up to us to change it as a matter of urgency.

Very briefly I will put three points——

I will give Deputy Desmond an opportunity to demonstrate that he can operate in a definite time limit. You have five minutes.

I should like to share my time with Deputy Shatter, if that is possible.

The Deputy has five minutes. That is a wish. If the Deputy finishes in two and a half minutes it is a wish but perhaps not to be anticipated. I must get agreement of the House on that; is the House agreed that we give two and a half minutes each to the two Deputies?

Deputies

Agreed.

There is great public concern about the conduct of this trial, with particular reference to the attendance of senior and junior counsel throughout the trial. Therefore, I welcome strongly the announcement by the Minister that there is now a process of statutory consultation between the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Attorney General in relation to that matter. Only then will we know the truth, even from those who, perhaps, protest too much. The second point I want to make is that the report should be made public either by way of Parliamentary Question or statement by the Minister on the result of the statutory consultations in regard to what precisely happened.

I suggest that such trials must be transferred as a matter of urgent public importance to the Central Criminal Court under the jurisdiction, I hope, of a competent High Court judge. I have seen rape trials in the Circuit Court and at High Court level. I know it is the wish of the fomer Attorney General — the Minister today can speak for the present Attorney General — that there should be consistency in sentencing and in procedures in relation to the conduct of such trials. If trials of this sort were held in the Central Criminal Court this would be enhanced. Perhaps then senior and junior counsel would be more disposed to attend such trials because the High Court judge presiding would take great care of the procedure.

I want to make a point in regard to the presentation of forensic evidence. As former Minister for Health I am aware that in many such cases the extent to which forensic evidence is available and assembled is very often marginal. I can just imagine the facilities in Cavan County Hospital and in the Cavan Garda station. I can imagine the expertise of general practitioners and gynaecologists in assembling the evidence. In this case, to be polite about it, the facilities were sparse. Such a framework for the treatment of victims and the general facilities for them when they present themselves to the forensic authorities and the Garda law enforcement agencies must be improved drastically.

I make an earnest plea to the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Health that these facilities are in dire need of improvement. If they are not improved we will never succeed in our efforts to discover the truth in regard to such cases, particularly when the victim is subjected to harsh cross examination, as we saw in this case. I rest with those three firm recommendations to the Minister, particularly the first one.

Deputy Shatter has one minute.

I do not think I can say anything in one minute that is worth saying. Very briefly I will make the point that a rape trial such as this should not become a ritual lynching of somebody accused of rape or a public juridicial rape of the reputation of the alleged victim. The reforms recommended by the Women's Rights Committee in this regard so as to ensure that the person making an allegation of rape will not be put through a form of questioning in the witness box which seeks to destroy the reputation of that person totally, in a manner that does not have any relevance to the accusation made in the context of the trial, is a procedure that requires immediate attention.

In the time remaining to me let me make one point which has not already been made by any other speaker. None of us in this House can state whether the verdict reached in this case was correct but what we can all state is that there is a public perception that something was wrong and that perception derives from the fact that a barrister employed to appear on behalf of the State throughout the course of these proceedings did not appear for reasons which have been referred to already. There is no doubt that any counsel instructed by the Director of Public Prosecutions to prosecute a case on behalf of the State should be required to be present in court throughout the period of the trial in order to ensure that justice is done and the State is properly represented. That can be brought about by action taken by the Director of Public Prosecutions and I join with those who raised the issue of the Bar Council changing their guidelines and looking at their procedures in this area. It is my view——

I am sorry, Deputy but in accordance with the order of the House we will have to move on.

It is my view that more fundamental reform is required. We should provide for an independent prosecution service which employes counsel on a permanent basis——

The Deputy must conclude and I am asking him to resume his seat. There is no one listening to him. We will now move on to the next business ordered which is the Urban Renewal (Amendment) Bill, 1987.

Is the Minister not going to reply?

No. Under the order of the House the Minister is not allowed to reply.

Barr
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