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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 11 Dec 1987

Vol. 376 No. 8

Supplementary and Additional Estimates, 1987. - Vote 51: Public Service Early Retirement Payments.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £10,000,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1987, for the payment of lump sum and related payments resulting from early retirement in the public service.

During last summer, the Government, recognising the need to make savings in all areas of public expenditure, undertook a rigorous examination of all public spending programmes. The decisions we made during the examination were reflected in the 1988 Abridged Estimates Volume which was published in October and which involved reductions of £485 million below the amounts which would have been required to maintain services at their existing levels.

No Government can tackle the problem of the public finances without looking critically at the full range of services hitherto provided to the public and at the size of the public service workforce which has been built up to provide those services. The problems inherited by this Government compelled them to decide upon significant changes in certain public services and on the consequential changes that should take place in public service numbers.

It was clear from an early stage in the life of this Government that reductions on the scale required in the numbers employed in the public service could not be fully effected by reliance on natural wastage and partial bans on recruitment. It was necessary for us to go further — in a direction normally adopted by private employers when their needs and resources are curtailed. Experience in the private sector had demonstrated that many workers, because of their personal circumstances or the suitability of their skills to new career paths, welcomed the option of early retirement. We believe that in a workforce as large as the public service there are many people who wished to quit that employment but who, because of superannuation practices, would be left for varying periods without income.

The Government, therefore, decided to facilitate the early departure of such people from the public service by providing in the form of new voluntary early retirement arrangements attractive and immediate inducements to such people to go.

Initially we confined the terms of those offers to people working in areas where developments had made particular groups of staff surplus to the needs of the public service. More recently the scheme has been extended to the over 50s in most areas of the public service. The vacancies which will arise in the case of posts which are not surplus to need will be filled by redeployment. In the Programme for National Recovery negotiated between the Government and the social partners, the Government emphasised their belief that the necessary reductions in public service numbers could be brought about on a voluntary basis. The scheme we have introduced is on a voluntary basis.

The terms of the offer have already been explained to this House. In brief, they offer to public servants outside the scope of the social insurance scheme a bonus of up to seven additional years service for superannuation purposes or a severance payment of up to 18 weeks pay in addition to immediate pension and lump sum to which their actual service entitles them. In the case of public sector staff on full PRSI, their superannuation benefits are integrated with existing entitlements under the social insurance and redundancy schemes.

As I indicated in a reply to a parliamentary question earlier this week, the early retirement package has been offered to about 13,500 public servants of whom about 900 have accepted and will be leaving during 1987. The lump sums and related payments due to them, and payable in 1987, will amount to £10 million. It is only the frontend costs, that is to say, retirement lump sums, short service gratuities, employers' liability under the Redundancy Payments Acts, and additional severence gratuities, that will be met from this Vote. The cost of pensions will be met, in the usual way, from the appropriate Votes.

Of the 13,500 public servants who have been offered the early retirement package, many have indicated that they will accept and will leave in 1988. It is, however, not possible at this stage to estimate the total number of people who will take early retirement during 1988. As I have previously explained to the House, some public service employers such as health agencies and local authorities have not yet decided on the appropriate level of staffing in 1988, in the light of their 1988 allocations so it is not known how many redundancies they will be seeking. In the education area, it is envisaged that offers of the early retirement terms will be made before the end of the 1987-1988 school year. The precise numbers involved are currently being examined.

As I also indicated in reply to a recent parliamentary question, the Board of the Central Bank have approved of arrangements under which the bank will make advance payments of surplus income to assist the Exchequer in meeting the exceptional costs of the redundancy programme. These arrangements are in accordance with section 63(7) of the Currency Act, 1927, which provides that the Central Bank may at any time pay into the Exchequer such sums on account of surplus income as may be agreed upon by the Minister for Finance and the Central Bank.

Each year, the Central Bank pays over to the Exchequer the surplus income it has earned in the previous year, after having made certain appropriations to reserves. The surplus income is taken into the Exchequer as non-tax revenue and is shown separately in the White Paper on Receipts and Expenditure published at the start of each year.

Under the arrangement I have just outlined, the Central Bank will advance to the Exchequer not later than 31 December 1987 an amount equal to the issue from this Vote to cover lump sum payments made this year. As I have already indicated, this represents an advance payment to the Exchequer of surplus income by the bank in addition to the amount which would otherwise have been paid.

The result is that the exceptional costs of the redundancy programme will be financed by the additional surplus income from the Central Bank and will not add to either the current budget deficit or the Exchequer borrowing requirement.

The advance by the Central Bank will be repaid over a period of four years, after a moratorium of one year. The repayment will take the form of four equal annual deductions by the Central Bank from the normal payments of surplus income.

I am confident that the scheme will lead to Exchequer savings. As Deputies will appreciate, the precise gains and costs to the Exchequer depend on the age, salary and length of service of those who leave within the scheme.

The bulk of the lump sum payments will fall to be paid in 1988 and will also be financed by an advance of surplus income from the Central Bank. Since this is a voluntary package, we cannot be sure of the numbers and grades of staff who will opt for it, and since the lump sum due to each individual depends not only on his or her salary level but also on length of service, it is impossible to give a firm estimate of the lump sum costs for next year. It is tentatively estimated that the amount required in 1988 will be in the region of £80 to £100 million.

It has been suggested that this arrangement with the Central Bank represents "off-balance sheet financing". It is nothing of the kind. The payment from the Central Bank will be brought in to the Exchequer as non-tax revenue and will be shown as such in the Exchequer accounts. Payment of lump sums to public servants on departure will be from this special Vote which must be approved this year and next by the Dáil and which will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I commend the additional Estimate to the House.

(Limerick East): I presume I have ten minutes?

Yes, and we know the Deputy's excellent example in that regard.

(Limerick East): The Minister concentrated the major portion of his speech on the sum of £10 million which will be provided by the Central Bank to fund the redundancy scheme in the public service. Before I come to that I should like to briefly mention the other subheads. I should like the Minister to explain the mechanism which is being used in regard to the money from the national lottery and the additional sum of £7.5 million. Receipts from the national lottery are far beyond expectation and are being allocated in various areas as laid down by statute. Case by case decisions on the allocation of funds from the national lottery may not be the best way to go about it. I am thinking in particular of the provision for sport.

In respect of this particular debate, the Deputy is confined in the ten minutes allocated to him to what is in the Estimate.

(Limerick East): The documentation provided to me from the Department of Finance has a Vote which involves an additional sum of £7.5 million required in the Department of Finance for the distribution of the surplus of the national lottery grant-in-aid.

They were taken without debate this morning.

(Limerick East): Were they taken on the Order of Business?

I will answer any question the Deputy may wish to raise.

(Limerick East): I will confine myself to the main area of debate. I am glad that at long last the Minister has come into the House and told us how the public service redundancy scheme is to be financed. The Central Bank funding mechanism is now very clear. Obviously the Central Bank, like other banks, make profits from their banking activities. It has been the custom in the past to keep some of that profit in reserve and to hand over excess profits, profits not required, to the Exchequer.

In reply to a parliamentary question the Minister provided us with the information that the hand over is almost £100 million a year, that he intends to take £10 million extra this year and anything up to £100 million extra next year. I have argued that this is off balance sheet funding, and I still argue that it is. I accept that the Minister has said it will eventually appear in the Government accounts, but the whole nature of the debate on the national debt and the problems of our public finances has hinged around the Exchequer borrowing requirement as a percentage of GNP and the current budget deficit as a percentage of GNP. In this instance the moneys will neither appear in current expenditure nor in capital expenditure by the Government. Consequently there is a gloss being put on the finances which will give a distorted impression and will lead to a less than careful examination of the details and cost of the redundancy scheme.

Second, even though many people would treat money from the Central Bank as the equivalent of winning money in the national lottery or inheriting money in a will, it is not like that, as the Minister has explained, because after a year's moratorium this money will have to be repaid, not repaid in the sense that one repays a loan on which one is paying interest, because there is no interest involved here. There is a mechanism in the arrangement whereby the Central Bank will be repaid in future years after a moratorium of one year. I am not sure if that is after 1988, but from what the Minister has said I presume repayments will start in 1990 and continue in 1991, 1992 and 1993.

According to what the Minister said there will be a sum of £120 million involved at the outer limit, so we are talking about approximately £35 million to £40 million a year which would normally be coming into the Exchequer in the lifetime of the next Government. This money will not be coming in and will have to be raised by taxes or by some other method. The savings would be accounted for before we reach that point so we would not want to double count the savings. Therefore, if I may say so, it is a classic Fianna Fáil ploy of bringing money forward from future years into the present and, by doing that, giving the impression that it is a free lunch and we do not actually have to pay for it. It will have to be paid for in future years by a future Government.

I believe that because of the mechanism used the cost has not been evaluated as it might have been. Two issues arise immediately. It is very easy to see what the thinking is. It is private sector thinking and there is nothing wrong with that; if you are not controlling pay, you control payroll costs — numbers are reduced and as long as you keep your overall figure stable or down, that is grand. In private industry, especially in manufacturing industry, the shortfall is made up by extra productivity but, as far as I can see, there is no extra productivity in the public service. We are trading worse services against fewer numbers. For example, if nurses in hospitals are paid slightly more, their colleagues have to become redundant, hospitals will close and there is a worse service for the taxpayer. The same applies in teaching. Teachers get slightly more pay but the Minister is keeping the payroll cost stable and there will be 1,300 redundant teachers. The redundancies will be paid for by dropping the numbers. That results in larger classes and a worse service for the pupil and their parents.

By having the facility from the Central Bank to pay the redundancy lump sums, the Minister is in danger of paying too much for his scheme. Once the Minister decides to extend the scheme to the over-fifties and that it has to be a voluntary scheme, it is quite clear that people who are near retirement will be more likely to opt for it. This year the figure for lump sum redundancy payment will be £11,000 per person. I am sure the figures will be much higher next year because the Minister has extended the scheme to over-fifties. If a person of 52 or 53 years of age is given seven years extra, under the Minister's scheme he will be entitled to a full pension. Therefore, somebody with £20,000 a year will get a pension of £10,000 in addition to a lump sum of £30,000 in round figures. The Minister's outgoing for every redundancy next year will be approximately £40,000 at the top end of the scale.

I know the average will be pulled down slightly with people leaving early, but once the scheme operates on a voluntary basis and is available to everybody over 50 years the pull is towards older people going out on full pension with full lump sum payments. The Minister will have a lot of ground to make up. If these people remained working in the hospitals, schools, An Foras Forbartha, or wherever, it would cost £20,000 — and I am working on gross figures. The Minister's redundancy scheme will cost him £40,000 per head of staff and he will have a lot of ground to make up. If he does the net sum, the margins of savings are so low as to almost disappear. A pension of £10,000 with a lum sum of £30,000 invested at 9 per cent or 10 per cent and earning £3,000 a year is the equivalent of a salary of about £13,000. Obviously somebody on £13,000 as against £20,000 will drop to a lower level of taxation.

When you allow for the reduction in revenue flow to the Exchequer accruing from a lower marginal rate of tax, the dramatic savings which the Minister is presenting are not there. I maintain that if the lump sum payment had to come out of current expenditure it would be examined far more rigidly by the Department of Finance. Because of the Central Bank facility there appears to be a softness in the Minister's approach to the redundancy package, and what appears to be a financial saving of a large nature is very small indeed. When you add to that the fact that there is a worsening of the service, that you are taking many public servants out of it and that the extra productivity argument as in the private sector does not apply, the Minister will be paying pretty much the same money for a worse service and fewer people working. Even with all of that the Minister will be forced to move away from a voluntary redundancy scheme at a very early stage in 1988 if he is to achieve his figures.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I would like to have more time but I am sure we will come back to it again. I understand the Minister has review clauses in the Programme for National Recovery. Rather than wait to be dragged in under the review clauses by the social partners, or by the Minister, to debate whether the scheme should be voluntary or compulsory — because I am sure it will be compulsory before next year is out — the Minister should invoke the review clause and see if he and the social partners can achieve a better balance between the services provided to the taxpayer, the number of people at work in the public service and the levels of pay which are being provided to those who are still being maintained at work.

At the outset I would like to welcome the move by this Government to reduce numbers in the public service. I am sure this House is aware that since the Progressive Democrats were formed we have spoken very strongly in favour of reduced numbers in the public service as a means of reducing public spending, thus leading to a reduction in the appalling burden of tax on PAYE workers which has such a disincentive effect in regard to work itself. We believe there is a real link between high numbers of staff in the public service as a whole and high levels of public spending. The Minister referred in the House this week to the public sector pay bill which will be £2.813 billion this year and this is an enormous amount of money for any small economy to bear. There is an apparent saving of £20 million on the budget estimate for this pay bill as yet not totally explained. For instance an apparently large sum of £12 million has been saved on the educational pay bill but I am sure the Minister will enlighten us in the future about that.

The public service numbers that we have to support in this country, excluding the commercial State-sponsored bodies, are approximately 220,000. A reduction in those numbers of even 5 per cent would save the State about £140 million in its yearly pay bill on the levels as they stand. It would thus allow for a reduction in the budget deficit and if continued could lead to a substantial reduction in the borrowing requirement and overall borrowing. Therefore, we support the implementation of a positive early retirement plan but only in conjunction with a properly thought-out and executed redeployment programme. I feel that the second part of that has been ignored by this Government. If one embarks on an early retirement plan, which is supposed to reduce numbers substantially, the only effect that that can have in the long term is that services will be reduced unless a redeployment programme is properly executed.

With the abolition of the Department of the Public Service we have little or no co-ordination of redeployment in the public service. I have some knowledge of that as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts and also from replies to questions in this House. I believe we will simply have a reduction in services and a maintenance of those who are now employed to implement those services if we do not address this problem immediately. If this early retirement or redundancy package is carried out in isolation, it will reduce the services to such a level that the question must be posed: why are we maintaining the staff to administer these programmes which are, perhaps, no longer in existence or are so run down that they might as well not be there?

In this connection I believe that Government Departments will have to change their attitudes. There is a distinct atmosphere in Government Departments of empire building and when they are asked to reduce numbers or to rationalise in any way there is an attitude of: there will be no change here, what we have we hold. If I have heard that once I have heard it many times about the Departments. They are inclined to hold on to what they have. It needs very strong direction in order to break through that, but I think it is absolutely necessary. The early retirement and redundancy package will fall if that is not tackled.

The State now represents one-third of all employment in Ireland. This is surely an appallingly unhealthy burden for a weak economy, such as ours, unestablished in the industrial sense, to bear. Taken together with the 240,000 people who are unemployed, it represents well over 500,000 people who are dependent on the State out of a total workforce of 1.3 million. It is obviously unsustainable in the long term as we have discovered. This Government have at least shown that they wish to move in the right direction by reducing the numbers in the public service and by the curtailment of other expenditure, even though they have used such curtailment to undermine many of the independent bodies, costing small amounts of money which might be a threat to their policies in the future. I believe this is very misguided. It will have repercussions in the future which they will regret and which certainly the people of this country will regret.

I refer specifically to the drastic curtailment in the Office of the Ombudsman and the appallingly shortsighted decision concerning the National Social Service Board and I might also add An Foras Forbartha. When it was first announced that An Foras Forbartha would be abolished my party welcomed the thrust of such a move which would bring into line satellite agencies so long as the independent work which was carried out by that body would be continued. We now have a total capitulation to the local authorities on the part of the Minister for the Environment. They are among the worst offenders against the environment and they are now being given responsibility for the monitoring of environmental pollution. Surely that is absurd.

This curtailment of independent agencies, costing very small amounts of money, is a major flaw in the Government's policies. It shows how unthought out it was from the beginning. I also question the Government's will to implement this retirement and redundancy package or else I question their awareness of their own priorities in implementing it. I tabled a question to the Minister for Finance for written answer on 5 November this year concerning the numbers who had, among other things, applied and been accepted for early retirement. The problem was that the Minister for Finance would answer questions only on behalf of the Department of Finance and not for the public service as a whole. Therefore, individual questions had to go to each separate Department. The disparate approach to co-ordination of information on this most important subject did not augur well for the proper implementation of the package.

However, in answer to a supplementary question which I asked of the Minister yesterday in this House he indicated that he is assuming an actively co-ordinating role in implementing the package. I look forward to a more coordinated role being evident on the floor of the House and also in dealing with the separate Departments. The answers which I got from each Department give cause for concern. There was almost no movement to speak out, up to that date in the Government Departments on early retirement, career breaks and on redeployment. For example, a total of 12 staff in all Government Departments had been redeployed up to 4 November. This clearly shows that the Departments' attitude of "what we have we hold" is being maintained.

Since then the Government decision to extend the early retirement scheme to the over-fifties has been announced. The Minister said that 900 people out of the 13,500 who were offered this package have accepted it and have been accepted. I should like to ask the Minister how many of these are civil servants proper. Is acceptance of this package confined almost entirely to outside agencies and services who are being pressed to provide retirement numbers? I know that that is the case. People from these agencies have come to me and said that they were keen to take retirement or redundancy but were pushed from behind to take it from 31 December. There is no movement within the Departments to actually take this on board. The Minister referred to the education area and the retirement and redundancy package and said that it would be offered or implemented by the end of the 1987-88 year — if I am not misquoting him. We have been promised that package. I have been to ten or 11 public meetings in the education area during the last few weeks. Each time I have gone the Fianna Fáil representative said that the package would be coming out in two or three days or in one week or whatever. I do not think it is good enough to say it will come out by the end of this education year.

It is out now.

Fair enough.

I would like to remind the Deputy that she has one minute left.

I will conclude with a few words on the financing of the package. The Minister said it is not off balance sheet financing, I contend that it most certainly is. It is not being shown on the current side. It is not being shown on the capital side. If it were as it should be the current budget deficit and the Exchequer borrowing requirement would undoubtedly increase and this would represent the reality of what has happened. In contrast what will happen is that for a number of years from next year, because there is a moratorium of one year, the Exchequer will not receive the sums of surplus income which it might expect to receive from the Central Bank. It is depriving itself of income at some point. This should appear on the books and should be done openly. I am not saying that the retirement package should not be implemented. It should be implemented, but it should be above board and we should be able to scrutinise it. I raised this matter on 17 July or 18 July after the first announcement on it. I would like to know how it will be financed and from where. It has been introduced very late in the day to say what is actually happening. I do not like the way it is being brought about and neither do the Progressive Democrats.

The Chair appreciates the Deputy's co-operation in the matter of unaccustomed limitations of time.

A constituent of mine rang me around midday on Saturday and was displeased because there was a major water break outside his front door. I told him that Dublin County Council no longer had an emergency service to cover water breaks at the week-end. I then said: "I suppose you voted for the Progressive Democrats" and he said he did. I told him he was witnessing the policy that party in the Dún Laoghaire constituency advocated.

Recently I met a person who was involved in an accident at the bottom of Foster Avenue on the Stillorgan Road, a particularly lethal junction. The ambulance eventually came and I pointed out to the people that throughout the south Dublin area there will be a reduction of ten ambulance drivers in 1988. I told them that the next time there was an accident at the bottom of Foster Avenue the ambulance would probably arrive another 15 minutes late because the people would not be available. Voluntary redundancy is now being offered to 16 people in the Dublin Fire Brigade. That is what a reduction in public service numbers means. I have no doubt that some of the ambulance drivers themselves voted for the Progressive Democrats in order to get tax reductions. We cannot have it both ways. Deputy Colley has attended most meetings in my constituency and she has expressed herself as being aghast at the pupil teacher ratio change. That is what a reduction in public service means. That is reality.

That is what bad Government means.

The local authority personnel throughout south Dublin will kick up hell when pipes freeze and there will be nobody to dig up the roads and to repair them. That is what public service reduction means. We in this House cannot have it both ways. The Minister in some respects has endeavoured to have it both ways in a somewhat macho public service way. I have no objection to the operation of the embargo. It was a reasonably good decision which has operated since 1981. I have no objection to rigid control of new recruitment in all areas and rigorous examination on a cost benefit analysis basis for every new recruitment. I have no objection to redeployment of public service staff. I assure Deputy Colley that hundreds of staff in the public service have been redeployed since 1980-81. When I was Minister for Social Welfare about 200 people were redeployed to that Department from other Departments and it was successful.

I have no objection to career breaks, to flexi-time or to a whole series of mechanisms in the operation of the public service but this year there has been an aberration. The Department of Health sent to the Minister for the Public Service a proposal for redundancy for about 4,000 health employees and the Minister thought it was such a good idea that he decided to extend it to the whole public service. That was a bad piece of aberration of a macho nature because at that stage a minority Government were flexing their muscles and saying: "We will take on the PDs. We will clasp them to our breast in public service policy. We will outdo Fine Gael, get rid of about 8,000 public servants and everything will be well in 1988-89." That is what the Minister did. Somebody asked him where he would get the money. He said they would get £80 million to £100 million from the Central Bank and would have to pay it back by 1993. That kind of lunatic fringe financial operation not by Departments but by Ministers, does not work. That was the situation for four years when we were in Government and we buried it quietly, gave some people cups of coffee and sent them away to cool off, but when they came back they did not have that kind of proposal.

About two months ago the Minister came up with a brainwave that he would offer a retirement package to people over 50 years of age. That is public service employment lunacy. It does not operate in any other public service in any State in Europe. It will cost us £10 million this year plus the pensions. We will have to add further increments for 1988, 1989, 1990 and 1991 and all the money will have to be paid back by 1993. The books will be fiddled and cooked on a non-tax revenue side. They are already cooking and by the time Christmas comes they will be so cooked that they will stink. A bottle of poteen could be added but it still will not help. There is plenty of it to be got around Sligo. The Army, I gather, have found about ten or 12 stills in their recent search of the area.

I suggest to the Government with profound respect that this policy had no coherent development and now it is being filtered through the Book of Estimates in a last desperate effort to put matters right. The Minister should very quietly drop this policy. Enough damage has been done and there is no need whatever to offer premature retirement to public servants. We want those people working in the environment. There are many men aged 50 to 55 years of great competence who are going to leave the public service. We cannot afford to lose those people because, contrary to the view of the Progressive Democrats, this country is not over-populated with public servants. There are 238,000 public servants in this country, not 220,000, but they are also working in the State-sponsored bodies and in the Army.

Are we going to reduce the numbers in the Army tomorrow morning? We have already saved £6 million on the Vote for Defence this year. Do we want to take another 3,000 or 4,000 people from the Army? There is no recruitment to the Army at present. Are we going to take another 500 or 600 people from the Garda Síochána? The first people who will come into this House and kick up hell about security will be the Progressive Democrats if we do not keep up the numbers in the Army and the Garda. Are we going to suggest that we should take from the 38,000 people in the local authorities another 5,000 or 6,000 people? There will not be a blade of grass cut in County Dublin this year. Representations will be made to Deputy Colley from Marley Park to Goatstown and she will be on her high horse about it but yet she proposes that cutbacks be made.

The contradictions are coming home to roost in a huge way as we close down hospitals, fire brigades, ambulances, provisions in local authorities for parks and housing maintenance. Potholes will be dug and as the yuppies' axles break as they drive over the potholes on the Stillorgan Road there will still be talk about public expenditure and our public service numbers.

The Chair will have to clamp down on the Deputy.

In the Dáil, not to mention the country as a whole there is profound ignorance about public employment and public expenditure. Contrary to the current mythology, this country is not over-taxed or over-populated with public servants. If we continue along this road we will reach a point where a woman wanting to go to a maternity hospital and needing an ambulance because her husband has not got a car because he is unemployed will not be able to get an ambulance or where a person who needs a hip replacement will have to lie on the flat of his back for about two years before he can get into a public hospital.

In relation to the civil servants, what do we do? We tell them to take their lump sum and their early pension and give them 18 weeks to get out, and then we will say to the teachers "you go, too". My answer is to encourage these people to stay, to do their day's work, to pay them well and to give the public service a pay increase of 2½ per cent for the next three years. We should tell these public servants that we want them to be employed and that we are not giving soft options to anyone. We should cop ourselves on and the Minister should withdraw some of the nonsense that has come up in terms of voluntary redundancy, which is not really voluntary at all.

The Progressive Democrats favoured the abolition of An Foras Forbartha and then changed their minds when Deputy O'Malley got a kick in the groin from some public servants about it. People cannot have it both ways. I am in favour of keeping An Foras Forbartha. Some of the mad decisions that were made by the Government in the first flush of Estimate debates, when the Minister ran riot abolishing every quango that surfaced here, are coming home to roost and——

I will conclude now.

You said that before.

The Government will be in the High Court next Monday with regard to the National Social Service Board. The Government should stop this nonsense and let us save £80 million to £100 million of non-tax revenue in the Central Bank. We will take the surplus from the Central Bank but we will not give it to the civil servants who do not need retirement, who do not need the money and who should do a day's work and will later get honourable and respectable retirement.

This so-called voluntary redundancy scheme is not voluntary at all. It is clearly stated in the agreement signed by the Government, the unions and the IFA that if they do not get the voluntary redundancies they are seeking they will return to see what other way the redundancies can be achieved.

To take close to 10,000 public servants out of service will do serious damage to all of the services provided by that sector. Many of those services have been adverted to by Deputy Desmond who clearly pointed to the effect which these cuts in the public service will have. The Deputy could have gone on to say in relation to hip replacements that while one would have to wait perhaps up to two years for major surgery if one was a public patient, if a patient happened to have access to £1,000 or £2,000 he could within a week or two get the surgery carried out. Not only are the cutbacks affecting the public service and services which were generally provided on an equitable basis but they are creating a two-tier health care system. A two-tier education system is on the way now as well.

It has been said that the Government are acting in panic, that their plans are ill-conceived. I disagree with that. The Government have made a conscious decision to adopt the policies which have been ably enunciated by the Progressive Democrats since their inception, cutting back the role of the State, the reduction of the public service. This idea that we reduce the overall level of taxation on income and give people more money in their pocket so that they can decide how to spend their money is wrong. In this State such a policy leaves practically one million people, who are on the verge of poverty with very little disposable income, even worse off. At the same time as cutting back the role of the State and declaring for a reduction in income tax the Government are effectively dismantling the services available to those who are not capable of paying for them from their own resources.

There is a very clear Thatcherite policy at work here. Perhaps the backbench Deputies of Fianna Fáil are not well tuned in to Thatcherism and they may have decided to leave the politics and the decision-making to the Government and their advisers, but they have to acknowledge that what is going on is dismantling the education system, is creating huge classes at primary level as well as exceptionally large classes at vocational level, that it will deprive many working class children of access to third level education and is creating a situation where health services for a public patient means standing in queues for long periods.

This approach of cutting back the role of State and reducing the public service in the hope that this will set our economy right is nonsense. It has not worked where it has been tried in the US and in the UK. It is the height of folly for a Government and particularly for a Fianna Fáil Government who were saying the precise opposite at the time of the general election only ten months ago and who cannot seriously claim they did not know the state of the economy or that they had no experience of Government and were not aware of the problems.

In this debate I am afraid we must refer to the items for which the Minister is seeking the money and which are outlined in the statement made by the Minister. I ask the Deputy to be as relevant as possible.

I have just two other points and I will be brief. My first point is that indeed, as Deputy Desmond said, there is no opposition in this House to efficiency in the public service.

A promise of brevity or reference to Deputy Desmond does not necessarily make the point relevant.

It is the occupational disease of this place.

My point is relevant and it may relate in some indirect way to what the Minister is looking for. In reply to a question which I put down in October, I was informed that the various Ministers and Ministers of State had something like 120 or more civil servants operating in their consitituency offices at a cost of approximately £1.2 million. The Government might consider where those civil servants could be redeployed to maintain services which are due to the public in the areas of health, education and social welfare. If the Government applied themselves to that kind of redeployment and rationalisation we might have a different situation.

I thank Deputies for their contributions. I cannot say I welcome fully all the statements made but some of them were very constructive. I must repeat what I have said a number of times since last July when we announced this early retirementvoluntary redundancy scheme, that what we are doing is totally transparent in relation to the operation of the scheme and the way it is being financed. We are not putting any gloss on the finances. What we are doing will be seen in time as good business. We are accused of extending the repayment date into the future when some other Government will have to raise the funds. That suggestion totally ignores the fact that these savings are ongoing and permanent. Before we will have to begin making repayments to the Central Bank we will have the money in the bag, as the countryman would say. All the Central Bank is doing is paying the Exchequer earlier than they would normally do, the surplus income they have.

Remember VAT at point of entry.

I remember VAT at the point of entry and I remember quite vividly Deputy Desmond and his colleagues who subsequently formed a Government saying that on the day they came into office they would do away with that system but it is still there. They must have forgotten about it or perhaps the people Deputy Desmond mentioned earlier were drinking coffee. During the past nine months I have not had time to drink coffee.

Has the coffee in the anteroom been abolished?

Accusations have been made about public servants. There have been references to ambulances arriving late, to water pipes overflowing, mainly in Dún Laoghaire.

No, in my constituency.

I would not accept the condemnation of the public servants involved.

Only private ambulances operate in Dublin South.

Notwithstanding all the savings which have been made in all the services, there are people doing tremendous work in delivering those services throughout the country more efficiently and more effectively than ever. If there are complaints they should be made to the proper authority because it is their duty to provide those services and they have the resources to do so.

There has been much talk about changes in the pupil-teacher ratio and a reduced number of teachers. People must not have been listening to the statistics and looking at the reports which are freely available for all to see. The numbers entering the educational system are dropping. There was a big hullabaloo here last Wednesday with statements pouring out from FAX machines about a saving of £12 million in wages under the Education Vote. All Hell was breaking loose. It was tragic. It was all because there was an over-estimation, mainly due to the downturn in the economy, emigration and the reduced birth rate. There are reduced numbers coming into the system. Are Deputies suggesting that we should sit idly by and allow a situation where people will be sitting in classrooms with no pupils in front of them? That is what would happen eventually.

Is the Minister serious about that?

(Limerick East): The Minister should cut the comedy and answer the points raised.

The health agencies throughout the country have done a tremendous job, notwithstanding the difficulties. I know they will do the same throughout 1988 and beyond.

But fewer of them.

I thank Deputy Colley for welcoming the scheme of early retirement and voluntary redundancy. It is a package of measures offering career breaks, job sharing, redeployment and early retirement or voluntary redundancy.

This was a debate on early retirement.

Yes, but the package relates to the whole scheme and the four areas which are part of it. I hope it will work very successfully. There is great cooperation, despite what was said in some contributions.

(Limerick East): Tell us about the savings.

I hope I will never become as excited as Deputy Desmond was, not only today but last Wednesday, when dealing with this matter. I was very interested in the statement he made and look forward to his support when new taxation measures might be required in the weeks and months ahead. He quite clearly said we are not overtaxed.

We are not.

As Minister for Finance I would admit quite clearly that we are overtaxed. I am always interested in Deputy Desmonds's address because he speaks so authoritatively ex cathedra. If he does not agree with what is being done he describes it as nonsensical, incredible and so on.

Will the Minister bring back rates?

This package has been welcomed. We are asking the House to provide the mechanism to ensure that the financing will be transparent. This seems to have been a cause of concern and we are having a special Vote for this purpose. The income from the Central Bank will be taken into the Exchequer as non-tax revenue. There are no difficulties here and as the scheme begins to work it will be seen as one of the more important developments in recent times.

It is disappointing that there has been a delay in making the scheme available to teachers. The furore in that area has been caused because identified teachers have been told they will have to go. However, in the majority of cases they probably will not be the ones to go because they are the youngest teachers who are the last in. Those who have much longer service are more likely to avail of the scheme by going voluntarily.

Why was it not offered earlier?

A mistake was made. I cannot answer for it. The scheme was there to be offered since last July or, if not, in September. The delay has led to a lot of confusion in this area and I hope ——

(Limerick East): The Minister for Education's last friend has shopped her now.

After 20 years in public life I can say that whatever the statement, inside or outside the House, I will stand over it.

(Limerick East): The Minister has just disowned the Department of Education and the Minister.

No, I have not disowned the Minister for Education. I have said it is disappointing that the circular which would have avoided a lot of confusion did not go out much earlier. I will stand over that statement, too.

Vote put and agreed to.
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