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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Dec 1987

Vol. 376 No. 11

Dublin Transport Authority (Dissolution) Bill, 1987: Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Before the adjournment for Question Time I had just begun my contribution. I had pointed out that I regard the abolition of the Dublin Transport Authority as both a shortsighted and retrograde step which we will oppose at the end of the Second Stage and also again if it goes to Committee Stage. We have already tabled a number of amendments. The Bill makes no sense on either financial or traffic control grounds. The only saving is likely to be a minor one, that with the exception of the chief executive, all other staff would be transferred back to the Government Department from which they were seconded originally.

I would like to refer to the Minister's speech today in which he sought to justify this on the basis that there will be a future cost of something like £500,000. He backed that up by claiming that the expenditure for 1987 comprises of two State grants-in-aid — one for current expenditure and one for capital works. Regardless of whether the Dublin Transport Authority exist next year, that kind of expenditure would still be required. There is no clear indication from the Minister of precisely how much is going to be saved as a result of the abolition of this body. The argument still stands that it has not been done on the basis of cost savings, that it has been done for some other reasons. Deputy Quinn suggested that it has been done by way of a sacrificial lamb in the Minister's Department which was demanded by the Department of Finance, I do not know if that is true but I am sure Deputy Quinn has more insight and knowledge of how these things operate at that level. It seems to me that unless it fits in with the overall thrust and policy of Government it would not be agreed to, even as a sacrificial lamb.

The decision to abolish the Authority cannot be understood adequately in isolation from other decisions made by the Government in the transport area in recent times. There has been a decision to increase CIE bus and rail fares and the decision by Dublin Bus to shed 800 jobs. In addition there has been a decision not to extend the DART services in the Dublin area. Of course, there are the ongoing pressures and demands to build massive roadways through Dublin city. The Fianna Fáil group on Dublin Corporation went to great lengths to try to force through the inner tangent route development in the Dublin area. The Clanbrassil Street end of the route is the part that is most in the news these days. If the reconstruction of that roadway goes ahead, whether it be a 70 foot or a 78 foot roadway, there will be a continuation of that kind of development right through the centre of Dublin.

The decisions that are being taken will mean that fewer people will be able to afford public transport, and the quality and level of public transport available will disimprove. One of the objectives of the Dublin Transport Authority, which was included as a result of an amendment which I put down on behalf of The Workers' Party, was to promote the greater use of public transport within the Dublin area, and now there will be no body or organisation with this overall responsibility. Dublin Bus will, of course, do their best to promote their services as will Iarnród Éireann, but there will be no overall development of transport, public and private, in the greater Dublin area.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from these decisions is that the Fianna Fáil Government have made a deliberate decision to run down public transport in the city. This will have the effect of forcing more and more people to use cars or to take their places in longer queues at bus stops. There will be a consequent worsening of the city's already drastic traffic problems. The long term thinking may also be that if the level of public transport is allowed to deteriorate sufficiently it will result in a clamour for the introduction of privately run bus routes and thus open up the way for a greater privatisation of bus services in the area.

The whole purpose of the Dublin Transport Authority was to co-ordinate the input from various Departments, bodies and local authorities so that there would not be a fragmented approach to the development of a transport strategy for the capital city. The traffic problems in Dublin are now so critical that the need for this transport authority is more important than ever. The Minister, Deputy Wilson, criticised the Dublin Transport Authority Bill when it was going through the Dáil last year as being weak and wan. In many respects the authority was inadequate but if it is abolished we will be back to the original situation with various Government Departments, Tourism and Transport and Environment, the corporation, the county council, the Garda, Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann and Bus Átha Cliath, all involved in the traffic system without any real co-ordination of effort and with no overall responsibility in the area.

The success of the DART shows just what can be acheived when imagination and money is spent on public transport. The experience with DART shows that people are prepared to use public transport if there is a decent system available. Recent statistics show that 64 per cent of commuters travel to work by car compared to 32 per cent by bus and 4 per cent by train. If the quality of life in the city is not to deteriorate further the aim must be to shift the balance dramatically away from private cars and in favour of public transport. We do not need the sort of senseless, community-destroying road plans that Fianna Fáil have been trying to foist on us through Dublin Corporation over many years. What we do need is proper, co-ordinated traffic planning and the widest possible promotion of public transport. The opening of the DART system in 1984 was one of the most significant traffic developments in the city for many years. Unfortunately, the scope of the existing DART system is limited by its location along the coast, which was of course determined by the original coastal railway, as this means that it is serving only half of what would be its normal catchment area if it ran inland.

Communities in areas like Bally-fermot, Clondalkin, Tallaght, Blanchardstown, Finglas and Ballymun should not be denied the benefits of a DART system which are now available only to the generally more prosperous coastal areas. The decision of the Government not to go ahead with the proposals from CIE to extend the DART system to Tallaght and other areas on the grounds of cost is a short-sighted one. It ignores the fact that much of the land needed for the project has already been purchased by CIE; it ignores the general stimulating effect that the project would have on the areas through jobs created, and it ignores the money that could be saved in road construction and in generally speeding up traffic in the areas concerned.

The Dublin Transport Authority, in their short life, did not have much of a chance to prove themselves but there were indications that the small and dedicated staff were beginning to come to terms with the traffic problems of the city. They worked quietly and without fuss or self-promotion, and perhaps this was one of their mistakes. If they had gone for a high profile and publicity stunts the Minister might have found it more difficult to get away with this Bill in the Dáil. Since it was set up the Authority has taken a number of initiatives including the provision of new bus lanes, the introduction of selective bus detection systems to give buses priority at key junctions, the adoption of by-laws to control roadworks and so on. It was, I understand, preparing to introduce regulations for the wheel clamping of illegally parked vehicles and it was estimated that the revenue from this alone would have more than met the annual budget requirement of the Authority.

Fianna Fáil have done a U-turn on this issue and we are more and more beginning to expect that approach from the Fianna Fáil Government. What is surprising is the position of the Fine Gael Party. Despite a strong speech from their spokesman this morning there is still no clear indication from that party whether they are going to vote for this Bill, abstain on it or vote against it. I understand the Progressive Democrats intend to abstain on it and that is unfortunate because this House has the power to stop the Bill. Those of us who have already said we regard it as important to maintain this Authority and that we do not accept the Minister's argument in relation to costs will have the power to stop this Bill from being passed if an honourable and principled position is taken on it at the end of Second Stage today.

I wish to raise a point which relates to the position of the chief executive of the Dublin Transport Authority, Mr. Phil Murray. A number of other Deputies have already referred to the position he will find himself in as a result of the proposed passing of this Bill. I understand that all other staff of the Authority were on secondment from various Government Departments and will be able to transfer back to their original positions. However, Mr. Murray, who had worked for 19 years in Dublin County Council, had to give up his position in the county council to take on the Dublin Transport Authority job. What is to become of Mr. Murray now? Section 4 of the Bill compels the Minister to honour any contract entered into by the Authority with any person, other than a member of the staff of the Authority. That is an extraordinary situation and I have not seen it apply in any other Bill in this House. Section 4 states:

——Every bond, guarantee or other security of a continuing nature made or given by or on behalf of the Authority to any person or given by any person to and accepted by or on behalf of the Authority and every contract or agreement in writing made between the Authority and any other person (other than a member of the staff of the Authority) and in force but not fully executed and completed immediately before the commencement of this Act shall continue in force on and after such commencement and shall be construed and have effect as if the name of the Minister were substituted therein for that of the Authority and shall be enforceable by or against the Minister.

That is a guarantee for all agreements entered into by the Authority except the agreement and the arrangement made with the chief executive of the company who effectively is the only person employed by the Authority because, as I have said, all the other people have the right to return to their original jobs in the public service. Why is there this exclusion? There is, at the very least, a moral obligation on the Minister to honour commitments given to Mr. Murray.

I know your record will show your absolute regard for Standing Orders and tradition. It is in deference to that that I remind you that normally we avoid mentioning the name of any person; you should refer to the office instead.

I accept the point. In that regard there is a particular problem about the superannuation scheme and the superannuation entitlements of the chief executive. He worked for 19 years on Dublin County Council and understood that in the normal way he could transfer his pension entitlements for his later years to the DTA. I understand there was a considerable delay in agreeing on the superannuation scheme because of differences of opinion between the Minister and the board of the DTA. A scheme was eventually agreed and in accordance with the provisions of the 1986 Act was laid before the House. However, under the 1986 Act the scheme will not come into operation because the Act provides that a motion can be passed annulling it within 21 sitting days, and those 21 sitting days have not yet passed. This will mean that there will not be a superannuation scheme in operation when the Authority is abolished assuming that this Bill will pass today. Legal opinion suggests that once the Authority is abolished a superannuation scheme for employees cannot be implemented because they are no longer employed by the Authority because the Authority no longer exists. This is despicable treatment.

It would be if it were true, but it is not.

I hope the Minister will have the opportunity to respond and to point out that I am wrong and that the fears on this side of the House are groundless.

Deputy Deasy has been on to me for almost a week about it.

The establishment of the Dublin Transport Authority was a progressive step. It is a retrograde step now to abolish it. It is unfortunate that the Opposition parties who supported the original Act are not able to cope in here today to ensure that the Bill does not pass.

I support this Bill. The Minister and the Government have acted sensibly in the severe financial constraints of today. It is important to have the cutbacks in that area now before the Authority had time to grow into a large bureaucratic body that eventually would have employed about 20 people as suggested by the Minister and would have duplicated the work that can be done by the Dublin transport task force.

It is clear that in Dublin city and county there is utter traffic chaos. The Garda Síochána should have the statutory right to make decisions in relation to traffic. I am glad that these powers are being returned to the Garda Síochána and to local authorities. It is appropriate that additional functions such as the regulations of access and egress from construction sites be left with the local authorities. I hope the Dublin transport task force will set to work immediately to alleviate the traffic chaos in County Dublin and will do something about traffic signals which are not linked, especially on major roadways such as the Stillorgan Road and the Lucan Road where there is absolute chaos. I am glad that the Garda authorities will have a bigger say as they were not happy with the way things were going.

Some time ago a refuge was put at Cromwellsfort Road. Following numerous representations to the county council by public representatives and the Garda authorities, it was only after a Garda inspector piled his car up on it that it was removed. This refuge was used to stop the traffic coming out of a side road. This sort of thing was being done and representatives were being ignored. In traffic management there should be a facility to allow an input from elected representatives. On some bodies there are persons who have nothing but contempt for representations made by public representatives and they ignore them but traffic management must always allow for representations by public representatives as they do a huge amount of mileage around the city and are well aware of all the hazards and possible improvements. On Dublin Corporation I worked with a traffic study group as well as a subcommittee on traffic and from that work I know that there is a great coming together of public representatives from all parties in solving traffic problems.

Public representatives are sometimes frustrated in trying to build roads. As in the saga of Clanbrassil Street an exaggerated local interest can deter a local authority from taking the appropriate decision so it is important that central Government have an input having examined all the arguments. Sometimes the pressure on local representatives is such that they cannot see the city as an overall picture. As far as the inner tangent and getting Dublin out of chaos are concerned, I hope that transferring authority back to the Dublin transport task force will mean something will be done about the state of our roads. A member of The Workers' Party could not be expected to support anything Fianna Fáil would do.

That is not true Deputy. We walked into the lobbies with you on numerous occasions.

Not recently.

Yes, in the past few weeks.

Where were you last night?

I was here.

You did not look about you when you were voting.

Rather than voting with us, it was against somebody else. It is important that decisions are made in the interests of all of Dublin. At the moment there are insufficient penalties for people who park their cars regardless of other people's needs. They make roads almost inaccessible to other traffic. Suffolk Street is an example. I notice that coming up to Christmas, parking times have been changed by the Dublin Transport Authority. My philosophy has always been that if we had larger parking fines in the five-week period leading up to Christmas it might prevent the enormous problems caused by people coming into the city and parking illegally. We have not enough tow-away vehicles — only one or two for the whole city. These are needed to deal with problems such as double parking at traffic lights, forcing the traffic to use one lane and congestion caused by a driver attempting to turn right.

I do not think there is any Member of this House who is not an authority on traffic because of his experience. We have all suffered as a result of inadequate laws and deterrents. Everyone will take the risk of incurring a fine of £10 or so. Many companies are prepared to pay these fines on behalf of their executives. People would think twice if we had penalties of £25 or £40 for certain types of very selfish parking.

I am satisfied that it is correct to give many of the powers back to the Garda as the statutory authority. It is also important that local authorities should have an input into traffic management. However, there are other areas where certain functions need to be taken over at central Government level because of the lack of will, sometimes, at local level to implement important decisions on traffic flows.

There is need to encourage people to use more buses at peak times. My answer is that people would use buses more frequently if the fare structures were lower. I think Deputy De Rossa said that 62 per cent of people use private cars.

The figures are as follows: 4 per cent use trains, 32 per cent use buses and 64 per cent travel by car.

We all agree that if the incentive could be given to people to travel by bus by lowering fares more people would leave their cars at home. At present there is no incentive due to the high cost of fares. People can save by driving their own cars. I have long argued for a pilot scheme in an area such as Tallaght or Darndale where people could be encouraged to use buses by the offer of a 25p fare. People will leave their cars at home if there is an economic bus service. We must have the dearest bus service in the world when it is related to the average income of our people. One of the reasons fare structures are so high is our small population. A bus will make the same journey and use the same amount of fuel when it carries very few passengers. It makes economic sense to reduce the fares and fill the seats. It is somewhat like filling the seats on the flights to London. I know instinctively that the same thing will work if we can bring our bus service down to an economic level.

I am glad to note that the opportunity has been taken to revise the provisions so as to make the arrangements more effective in the implementation of road works of an emergency nature. The task force will have extra powers and the local authorities will be able to issue directions in the case of such works in the interest of their speedy completion. I understand that the work undertaken by the DTA over the past year will be a valuable input to the activities of the task force. I give credit to them for the work they have done on the plus side. However, I should like to see some sort of public representation on the task force.

Put Deputy Mary Mooney on it.

It depends who is choosing. If Fine Gael want to propose her from their group in the corporation we will not refuse her nomination. It is important to have one or two people to represent those who are elected by the public. Public representatives very often know as much about traffic problems as any engineer sitting in his office designing schemes to improve traffic flows. Recently I have undertaken to write a letter to Dublin County Council in relation to Rathcoole where there have been a number of accidents. The scheme they have devised has actually added fuel to that fire and the situation there will be much more dangerous. Very often there is not enough consultation with people who use the roads frequently. The input public representatives can make should not be ignored.

I am glad to have had an opportunity to speak on this Bill. Nobody likes to see any authority being dissolved and people discommoded but unfortunately this will have to happen for a while until we get our finances straightened out. I hope the year ahead will see an improvement in traffic flows.

I very much regret the introduction of this Bill. It is not of course a transport decision but a financial decision and, as I hope to demonstrate, a very poor financial decision indeed. I know after five years experience in Government how these things happen. Lists of all sorts of outrageous cuts are put up to Cabinet at each reading of the Estimates until the ultimate figure is reached. There is an item called "Save the Asgard” and this is included on the list this year. The Minister has allowed this awful decision to be taken. The total saving in a year on the dissolution of the Dublin Transport Authority will be £600,000 but much of that money will be included in the Estimate for the Department for traffic management schemes and so on. Therefore, we will be saving less than half that amount. Of course it should be remembered we are not really saving because the absence of the Dublin Transport Authority will cost us a great deal and lead to extreme difficulties as well.

If the provisions of this Bill included some stipulation that the roads and ancillary functions of the Department of the Environment were to be transfered to the Department of Tourism and Transport they might be tolerable and make some sense. We should remember that ours is the only country in the EC without a co-ordinated transport policy. Every other European Minister for Transport is responsible for all transport in his country. Here there is the extraordinary position in which the roads and ancillary functions — including DOE testing of vehicles, the equivalent of the MOT test in England — anything to do with taxis and so on are the responsibility of the Minister for the Environment. It is he who takes decisions in relation to priorities on roads expenditure, who takes decisions about the licensing and the regime under which taxis operate and so on. Yet, completely divorced from that, we have the Minister for Tourism and Transport deciding on investment in railroads, rolling stock, buses, bus routes, bus fares but who has no responsibility in the matter of roads. Because of the total lack of traffic co-ordination in the city of Dublin there are all sorts of decisions being taken with no due weight or consideration being given to their transport implications.

Deputy De Rossa expressed his regret at the Government decision not to proceed with the extension of the DART to the western parts of this city. In so saying he was echoing the views of a great number of people, not just in that part of the city, but throughout the city. Planning policy in this city has evolved over the years without any regard to or consideration of transport objectives. For instance, in the city of Dublin there is a housing policy of a maximum of 30 houses to the acre and in the county — what was considered to be a very liberal policy — of ten houses to the acre which may have sounded all right at the time but which carries enormous transport implications. It means we have a very low-rise, low density, spread-out city which is very fine in theory; lots of open spaces for people to dump their rubbish on; large gardens people are not used to dealing with; people living long distances from the city centre, frequently isolated in outposts in the far reaches of County Dublin.

For a long time there has been an urgent need for overall co-ordination of all elements of transport in the city and county of Dublin. There has been an urgent need for one body to examine all plans and decisions — whether they be simple planning permissions, road plans, major housing programmes, or plans for large industrial estates — so that transport objectives would be borne reasonably in mind. That was thought to be one of the principal objectives of the Dublin Transport Authority on their establishment. All of that is now lost even though in his introductory remarks the Minister made much of the fact that he has retained much of the powers and roles of the DTA by giving them to one body or another. The fact of the matter is that the Minister cannot delegate to anybody the central statutory role of the DTA, that of being the statutory authority who would have a legal right to consultation on development plans, planning permissions and so on. The Dublin Transport Authority had a legal right to advise local authorities and, if necessary, the Minister for the Environment and the Minister for Tourism and Transport on these matters. We are back to the old higgledy-piggledy, unco-ordinated position.

Some of the greatest vandals in this city and county are the local authorities themselves. Much of the blight in this city, especially around the city centre, is a direct result of the actions and inaction of our local authorities. Most of our derelict sites are in the ownership of local authorities. Our car parks, surrounded by broken railings, overgrown with weeds and old fences which are extremely ugly are mainly in the ownership of local authorities. Yet, the Minister is giving back to those same local authorities so many of the powers and functions of the Dublin Transport Authority which was set up in an effort to overcome all of those problems. They would have been a powerful lever on local authorities to properly regulate city car parks, to get rid of the urban blight caused as a result of protracted decisions on roads and so on.

What is more, what goes out with the enactment of this Bill is the possibility of an independent licenser of bus routes and services whether those services are provided by Dublin Bus or others. There is no power that I can see transferred to anybody in relation to the provision of services on routes, the line of those routes or who should serve them. That constitutes another retrograde step.

The effect of the dissolution of the Dublin Transport Authority and of the Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission — both of which were established by the previous Government — is to stop the clock, if not to turn it back, on all hope of action to visually improve the core of this city. There will still be the broken down old quays, the ugly Clanbrassil Street, King Street, Queen Street and Benburb Street. There will be nobody with any authority, with a specific mandate in relation to Dublin, to pressurise local authorities or shake them out of their state of apathy and indifference to tackle these problems. As a Dubliner I know how deeply irritated are the people of Dublin at the appearance of so many areas of their city. Indeed there is an acknowledgement that most of this ugliness emanates from lack of care, of thought, lack of advanced planning in relation to transport plans and so on.

I said that frequently the local authorities themselves were the greatest vandals. That is not confined to car parks or to the urban blight occasioned by protracted decisions on roads and so on. I will give an example of that. I was in Cork Street recently to meet a group of nuns working with the poor of the city. The gate of the convent was right beside a public house over which my own grandfather was born. The public house protrudes on to the street. As I was going in the gate I said to an 86 year old nun that I met that the public house was to be knocked down. She said "God love you, Mr. Mitchell, I was told that when I came here in 1927". The buses have stopped travelling in Cork Street because it is so awful. One side of Cork Street is almost totally reserved for widening. It is as well that the buses have stopped travelling along Cork Street because it is a depressing sight for anybody who has to travel on that route every day by bus or by car. It is not the only depressing street.

These are the problems that the Dublin Transport Authority was set up to deal with. But local authorities like the Gas Company, Telecom Éireann and so on have dug up trenches any old way across roads and footpaths. They then do what are called temporary repairs which are usually there for years. We have a "bockety" surface which has such an adverse visual impact on the city, inviting litter and encouraging filth and dirt. They do not seem to have any regard for straight lines. Even kerbs are broken by some of these road works. Then these hideous "temporary" repairs are left for months if not years. The same road may have only been resurfaced in the previous few months. The great bulk of the vandalism is done amost exclusively by the public authorities or companies owned by the public. Cablelink is 80 per cent owned by RTE: Telecom Éireann is 100 per cent State-owned; Dublin Gas is 100 per cent State-owned and there is Dublin Corporation itself. They are the people who are doing this vandalism and it is to Dublin Corporation that we are handing back the responsibility now for solving the problem. They are not going to solve the problem; they are creating it.

I am deeply ashamed of the appearance of this city, whether it is from awful, ugly "temporary" repairs which are left for months and months and sometimes years, or from the urban blight. Any one who has been Lord Mayor of this city or has the honour to serve on Dublin City Council must be deeply ashamed of the way the city looks and must accept that Dublin Corporation itself, together with certain other State agencies, are wholly responsible for the awful appearance of the city.

I want to refer to one other aspect, the transfer back to the Garda Commissioner of powers which had been previously transferred from him, together with some other powers. I do not believe the Garda Commissioner should be the traffic authority for Dublin city and county. The Garda Commissioner has too many other responsibilities. Nobody should be surprised to learn that in the pantheon of things up in the Garda Depot in the Phoenix Park for which he is responsible, traffic matters rate a very low priority. This is understandable when the commissioner is engaged in the fight against crime and subversion on a grand scale. Does anyone realistically think that he will have the time to give the sort of attention needed to traffic matters. It is a backward step indeed to expect the Garda Síochana to be responsible for the traffic in Dublin.

In the Act that was passed by this House, the original Act sought to be repealed here today, we gave the Dublin Transport Authority the role of the traffic authority. We have massive unemployment, but we could do with many more traffic wardens. We could easily use 100 or 200 more traffic wardens, and they would pay for themselves. It is one of the absurdities of the way we do things that for "financial" reasons we do not employ them; the policy is to get numbers down. It is that sort of absurd decision in relation to traffic wardens that has prevented them being employed; it is the same sort of rationale of the Department of Finance that disposes today of the Dublin Transport Authority. I resent the fact that this Bill is going through this House in a few hours. I know it has been agreed between the Whips, but I condemn the fact that such an important Bill is being rushed through the House.

Including your Whip.

Yes, including my own Whip.

Will the Deputy be opposing the Bill?

I strongly resent that legislation of this sort should be rushed through this House without proper consideration or proper regard.

We have already heard much about the position of the chief executive. I would like to echo what has been said by the other speakers and say that for the Minister to insert the phrase "other than a member of the staff of the authority" on page 4 lines 30 and 31 is really mean, because there is only one member of staff of the authority. I would hope that the amendment put down will be accepted and that the amendments put down by Deputy Deasy will also be accepted. I know that Deputy Deasy has been more active on this issue in the past fortnight, and I hope the Minister can assure the House about the position of the chief executive who took on this job in good faith in the last year.

I would like to have spoken for longer, but I am conscious that there are others who want to speak before 5 p.m. I feel that this is a very sad day's work by this Dáil. It is a major step in the wrong direction. It is a financial decision, a decision which will not save the £400,000 or so it purports to save. It will cost us dearly, and it is this sort of decision that has the country in the financial mess in which it is.

I would like to address the House for a few moments——

Deputy McCartan, would you resume your seat, please.

I certainly will not.

I have asked you to resume your seat, Deputy McCartan.

I presumed I was the next to be called.

Deputy McCartan, will you resume your seat and I will say something to the House. When Deputy McCartan is here as long as his colleague, Deputy De Rossa, he will have learned that there is a strict sequence here in which speakers are called, that after a debate that moves from the initial position of spokespersons, it then moves from one side of the House to the other. That is the fact as it is and we cannot change that here and now. There is a procedure by which it might be changed. I was going to indicate to Deputy Flood who has offered that there are 20 minutes remaining. His colleague, Deputy Taylor, who has priority to be called from the Opposition benches will have heard Deputy McCartan indicating that he wishes to speak and having reminded Deputy Flood of that position, the Chair now calls on Deputy Flood to make his contribution.

On a point of order, I would like to take the opportunity to apologise. I presumed, wrongly obviously, that by being here on time I might in some way have priority. I greatly regret that so little time has been provided to the Deputies of this House, particularly those from the Dublin area, who are concerned about the future of transport in the city. This Bill is being presented to us in a way which gives a shortened opportunity for discussion on the merits and demerits of a proposal which will have a profound effect on the future of transportation in this city.

The Chair can appreciate and sympathise with Deputy McCartan's regrets, but such regrets do not alter the position that we must operate under——

I am rising on a point of order, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. You rightly told the House just now, and I agree, that it is long established procedure that a debate rotates from Government to Opposition. The question that you did not go into, and on which I want to make a submission to you as a point of order, is that of the description of Opposition. My description of Opposition is those parties who signify their opposition to the matter before the House and to the matter of Government policy in general.

That is a new definition.

The position here is that those who are in support of the Government side of the House, Fine Gael, have just spoken. They are not opposing this Bill, notwithstanding all the razzmatazz and big talk from Deputy Jim Mitchell.

That is not a point of order.

The reality of it is that the Deputies have gone home. I passed a dozen of them on the way out.

(Interruptions.)

I am saying that they are not the Opposition at all. They are in support of the Government position. They have not indicated opposition. On a point of order, I am suggesting now that you should call an Opposition speaker to deal with this Bill.

Deputy Taylor, who is a man of expertise in these matters, will see, if he looks at Standing Orders, that there is no provision for the circumstances to which he has referred. I call Deputy Flood.

Standing Orders, with respect, talk about Opposition. Opposition is a matter of fact. The facts are that the Fine Gael Party support the Government and are, therefore, a party on the Government side.

That is rubbish.

That is not a point of order.

The fact that they do not have to sit over there as a matter of convenience does not alter the situation one iota. They are a party in support of the Government.

The Deputy is wasting time.

You know it, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. We know it. I cannot remember when they last participated in a vote at all.

Deputy Taylor, please.

This should be said about them, they are supporting the Government and they have become irrelevant so far as the affairs of this House are concerned.

The Deputy will appreciate that he made a point to which reference might be made at some future date when he indicated the position of his party and would exclude it from the Opposition. I am now calling Deputy Flood.

I am in a somewhat unique position in addressing the House because I was appointed a member of the Dublin Transport Authority by Dublin County Council on the establishment of the Authority, with the approval of the then Minister.

How could they make that slip-up?

They are a very democratic assembly, Dublin County Council.

He is a party member, undoubtedly.

I hope the Deputy is not coming in to say that he welcomes the abolition of the Dublin Transport Authority.

I can speak from experience on the Dublin Transport Authority. My colleagues on the Authority at the time, including the chief executive officer and chairman, gave a very grave commitment to the Authority and to the work schedule set out for it.

Was it a good organisation?

There certainly was a great amount of work to be done in getting the basics of the organisation established, such as office accommodation which took a considerable time to organise. All these things took up much time on the part of the Authority. Unfortunately, I was not able to participate for very long as a member of that body. Once the Authority was set up, as a member of Dublin County Council, I began to recognise the overlapping of what I felt would be the functions of Dublin County Council with——

The decision as to whether to leave the House.

And the decision to be silent about it.

——the role of the Authority. To put it very simply, as a member of Dublin County Council, if on behalf of constituents we decided that the local authority should consider putting down double yellow lines in some area, we found that the management of the council began to say, once the Authority had been set up, that they could not do that themselves but would have to refer it to the Authority. Many members of the council at the time rightly queried whether this was not some element of new bureaucracy entering into the role and functions of the local authority. There was a great deal of confusion in the minds of public representatives on the matter. The residents of various areas who would be affected by such decisions or who received notification of decisions from the council in such matters could not understand why such requests would have to be forwarded to the Dublin Transport Authority.

There is, as I understand it, one staff member at the moment, the chief executive officer. He is a person in whom I would have a great deal of interest and it is right that the Minister should examine his position very clearly and rationally. As the Authority has been established for only such a short time, it should be seen to that no injustice be done to that officer, who has given great service to Dublin County Council in the role of principal officer in the engineering department. I am satisfied from what the Minister has said to me that no injustice will be done to this individual and I welcome that assurance. The chief executive officer has contributed a great deal to the organisation. I do not think that any of us who is familiar with its operation would deny that. He has been able to draw largely from his own experience of his work with Dublin County Council in the roads section. That was one of the main reasons for his being employed.

I understand that the pension schemes embrace not only his chief executive service with the Dublin Transport Authority but also all his previous local authority service, which in the main was with Dublin County Council. The Minister will confirm that arrangements have also been finalised this week to allow all his previous service to be transferred into other areas of the public service and to be reckoned along with such further pensionable service as may accrue to the chief executive officer if he accepts redeployment into another area of the public service. The Minister is to be complimented for taking a personal interest in this individual who has given sterling service to Dublin county through his work with the county council.

There are great problems with regard to traffic management in the city and county of Dublin. These must be addressed, but I question whether an authority such as the Dublin Transport Authority are in a position to deal globally with the situation. I am old-fashioned enough in my views to consider that communities are best placed to advise local authorities, or councillors such as myself, in relation to difficulties in terms of traffic and traffic management which arise from time to time. We have had, on many occasions, to bring before the local authority, as the main authority responsible for traffic management over the years, relevant issues regarding improvements in an effort to ensure that, for example, proper safety measures were brought into force. This has been of tremendous benefit to local authorities. The easiest way in which we can accommodate the needs of residents, their associations, local councils and so on must surely be by operating through the local authorities rather than having to bring the matter to another level in an effort to deal with some of the very simple matters to which I have referred.

In terms of road safety there were some crucial decisions to be taken dealing with traffic management, the removal of traffic hazards and so on. This topic has been touched on by other Deputies this evening. It seems to be a case of going back to the local authority to a substantial extent and giving back to them some of their powers which were taken away and given to the Dublin Transport Authority. These powers are being given back to the elected representatives on the local authority and to the community.

Organisations such as the Tallaght Community Council became very concerned when they discovered that many of the powers which are normally vested in the local authority were being whittled away following the establishment of the Dublin Transport Authority. On several occasions they complained about the inaccessibility of the Dublin Transport Authority when organisations such as theirs wished to make representations regarding transport, transport management and road safety. I have to admit that it was for this reason that I became increasingly disillusioned with the Dublin Transport Authority. It was proving increasingly difficult to get a response from them in regard to the complaints and queries which had been raised by the community associations and community councils I represent. It became increasingly obvious that it was a mistake to take powers away from the local authority and vest them in the Dublin Transport Authority. To create additional layers of bureaucracy is not the way in which to proceed. It was for that reason that many of the individuals and associations I represent had cause for complaint.

On a point of order, at what point will the Minister respond to the Second Stage debate? He undertook to give us some information as regards the position of the chief executive officer. The debate is due to conclude at 5 p.m.

If the Deputies desire to hear the Minister, I should point out that I am obliged to put the question at 5 p.m. If he were allowed to come in now the Minister would have a little over five minutes to respond. I am sure the Deputy will keep that in mind.

There are just a few other points that I wish to raise. It was a retrograde step to take away some of the major powers of the local authority in regard to traffic management. That is a point which has been repeated on several occasions. The staff of the local authority are quite capable of making the necessary decisions, in consultation with the elected members, on matters pertaining to road safety and transport management. Because of their experience, local knowledge and technical know-how they know how best to plan traffic management and road safety.

Tied into this question is the question of funding. There is no point in having grandiose plans put forward by an authority which is once removed from the local authority if no account is going to be taken of the availability of funds from one year to the next. At least the local authorities knew what was happening. The planners, engineers and road safety officers knew what was happening in their areas and knew in respect of the development plan what was likely to happen in the years ahead. An authority such as the Dublin Transport Authority may not fully appreciate or understand issues such as these. It is for that reason that those of us who have studied very carefully the role and operation of the Dublin Transport Authority began to have serious doubts about their effectiveness. We felt that the good management we have become used to, at local authority level, particularly in Dublin, was slipping away. As I have said, instead of decisions for instance in regard to road safety being taken at county council level the matter had to be referred to the Dublin Transport Authority. That was a retrograde step and it led to many complaints.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I have seen the chief executive officer at work in both Dublin County Council and in the Dublin Transport Authority. The Minister is of the opinion that there seems to be some confusion in this House about what has been offered to the chief executive officer. I have a personal interest in this matter because——

Could the Minister clarify the issue as there are only two minutes left?

The Minister has given me an assurance that there is a written offer of immediate employment over a one to two-year period, coupled with written assurances from his Department as to the position at the end of that period. I wish to put that on the record of the House and to express my appreciation——

On a point of order, it is disgraceful that this House is being talked out. The Minister is not being given an opportunity to put on the record of this House the position regarding the employment and the superannuation of the chief executive officer.

It was Deputy McCartan who tried to disrupt the House.

On a point of order, it is obvious that the Government for whatever reason cannot accept our position. Perhaps Deputy Flood would allow the Minister a minute to outline what will be the position in regard to the chief executive officer.

I have no objection at all——

There is no time limit on speeches during the Second Reading of this Bill despite the fact that there is an overall time limit on the Bill.

I want to put on the record of this House my appreciation for the manner in which the Minister has treated the chief executive officer of the Dublin Transport Authority, who is a person I know very well and in whom I have great confidence. I now give way to the Minister.

I regret I have not more time at my disposal as I have plenty of material in front of me. In regard to the offer of employment, I will read quickly into the record of the House part of a letter which I sent to the chief executive officer. It said:

...the proposal offers you the prospect of immediate employment, coupled with written assurances that:

(a) acceptance of the assignment in question would not prejudice your redeployment at the end of the assignment to an appropriate permanent post in the public sector;

(b) it would be open to you at the end of the assignment to avail of the early retirement terms should you so wish; and

(c) you would suffer no loss of pensionable service in respect of the period of the assignment.

The other major point made was about the pension. It was argued that the pension schemes could not have full efficacy until there was ministerial approval and until 21 full sitting days had elapsed from their being brought into effect. The schemes for the chief executive of the DTA had been approved by both the Minister for Tourism and Transport and the Minister for Finance and were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas on Wednesday, 16 December 1987. The Attorney General's office has advised— I am anxious to emphasise this — that the pension schemes are in force immediately from the date of ministerial approval. The question in relation to the 21 sitting days is irrevelant. It is only relevant if a motion is brought before the House to annul the schemes and it is important that the House should know that.

The pension rights of the chief executive are, therefore, already fully protected and will be further protected by section 4 (3) of the Bill which provides specifically for the continuance in force of the pension arrangements following repeal of the 1986 Act and for the substitution of the Minister in place of the Authority in relation to the administration of the schemes after the Authority is dissolved. All the chief executive's service with Dublin County Council is also reckoned in terms of the pension scheme.

I am now obliged to put the following question in accordance with the resolution of An Dáil of this day: "That the Bill is hereby read a Second Time, the Bill is hereby agreed to in Committee, is reported to the House, without amendment, and Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed".

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 16.

  • Abbott, Henry.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Mooney, Mary.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Swift, Brian.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.

Níl

  • Bell, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Desmond, Barry
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Howlin and Bell.
Question declared carried.

Before we adjourn I would like in one of the best traditions of the House to extend to your good self and every Member of the House best wishes for a very happy Christmas and for the New Year until we meet again on Wednesday, 27 January.

Go raibh maith agat, a Thaoisigh. Beannachtaína Nollag agus Athbhliain faoi shéan is faoi mhaise dhaoibh go léir agus go n-éirí go geal libh uilig sa bhliain atá romhainn.

I wish to join An Taoiseach in extending to you all the compliments of the holy season. A very happy Christmas and a bright and prosperous New Year to all of you and your loved ones.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 January 1988.

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