I have received a number of Private Notice Questions in connection with the Dublin fire brigade dispute. I will call Deputies in the order in which they submitted their questions to my office. Would Deputy Quinn please put the question on behalf of himself and his colleagues in the Labour Party?
Private Notice Questions. - Dublin Fire Service Dispute.
asked the Minister for Labour if, in view of the grave danger to the lives of citizens of the greater Dublin area arising from the fire brigade dispute, he will give details of the efforts he and the Government are making to resolve this dispute.
asked the Minister for Labour if, in view of the serious public concern about the strike by members of the Dublin fire service and the potentially dangerous position obtaining as a result of the withdrawal of normal fire cover, he will use the powers available to him to intervene directly or to request the Labour Court to intervene once again and if he will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for Labour the steps — having regard to the imminent escalation of the fire officers dispute in Dublin city — he proposes to take to secure a resolution of the dispute and an early restoration of the fire and ambulance service to Dublin and if he will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for Labour if, in view of the escalating danger to life arising from the strike involving firemen and ambulance staff in the Dublin area, he proposes to intervene or to urge that action be taken to deal with the extremely serious position obtaining.
I understand that a Private Notice Question of mine had also been approved.
I will be calling that question shortly. The Deputy's question was to another Minister.
The dispute which began on Friday last relates essentially to the voluntary retirement of 16 firemen, half of whom were in the officer grade. Several days of intensive discussions, under the chairmanship of an industrial relations officer of the Labour Court, failed to resolve the dispute. I would emphasise that discussions continued in the Labour Court right up to the morning on which the strike commenced. I have been keeping in constant touch with events. It is my understanding that there is still a considerable gap between the parties to the dispute which has resulted in a complete stalemate at present. I would stress that the services of the Labour Court remain available to the parties to the dispute should they wish to avail of them. In view of the seriousness of the dispute I should repeat that, should the parties wish to enter into discussions, an industrial relations officer of the Labour Court will be available immediately to assist them.
In view of the arrangements made for dealing with the introduction of the budget and the ensuing debate may I respectfully request Deputies to be very brief and relevant in respect of Private Notice Questions?
Does the Minister consider it reasonable, as a matter of policy, that when eight senior positions in such a sensitive public service fall vacant, officers of a lower grade should be forced to take up those positions without training, promotion or any additional remuneration?
Deputy Desmond, more than most others in the House, will understand the complexities of this dispute and that my obligation and duty, as Minister for Labour, is to ensure that the machinery of the conciliation service of the Labour Court, and if necessary the Labour Court itself, is available to resolve the dispute. I have no comments to make on the other matters raised.
Would the Minister not agree that——
Would the Minister accept that the dispute puts in very sharp focus the Government policy of trading jobs for pay increases since it appears that the cost of the pay agreement in the fire service will amount to approximately £370,000 while the savings achieved by these redundancies will amount to only £180,000? Would he accept that that appears to be a less than realistic way in which the fire service should develop?
Might I also ask the Minister what he was up to in the hours leading up to the commencement of the dispute? Is he aware that the suggestions that he was operating in the background were a source of some amusement to people involved in the negotiations on both sides——
I did ask for brevity at this time.
——who read with some surprise an account in the late edition of the Evening Herald? Furthermore would he agree that the effect of that has been to cast a considerable cloud over the operations of the conciliation service of the Labour Court?
I might repeat that the conciliation service of the Labour Court was actively involved for three days before the commencement of this dispute, in fact right up to midnight on the day before. I had no involvement whatsoever in the conciliation talks that took place that night other than — because it was a potentially serious dispute — keeping myself informed of what happened right up to 1.30 or 2 o'clock in the morning. I might reiterate that if either side in this dispute wishes to go back to the negotiation table the conciliation service of the Labour Court is available.
Because this problem has arisen on account of a Government-imposed redundancy scheme and that the Minister for the Environment gave a specific undertaking in this House that essential services would be excluded from this scheme — that fire services in particular would be excluded from the provisions of this scheme — would he not accept that he, as Minister for Labour, has an obligation now to intervene to assist Dublin Corporation in alleviating the very genuine fears held by the fire service staff as a result of the reduction in staffing?
The Deputy will be aware that it is a matter for Dublin Corporation to decide what efficiencies should be effected. If Dublin Corporation felt that the fire brigade service should have to contribute something to the introduction of such efficiencies, that was a matter for them and not for anybody else.
In regard to the other questions I should say that Dublin Corporation and my colleague, the Minister for the Environment have satisfied me that the necessary emergency arrangements are in hand. Any other question on that matter should be directed to the Minister for the Environment.
I do not think this House should try to get into the business of endeavouring to solve this dispute. In the past we established a practice of not intervening. I believe we should continue that practice. Would the Minister not agree that, in the light of the breakdown of discussions of any kind between both sides, irrespective of the merits of this dispute, it is incumbent on him, as Minister for Labour, to directly make available the services of a conciliation officer of the court and of his Department to both sides and that he should initiate that action with a view to ensuring that safety to life and limb within the greater Dublin area can be guaranteed by the State?
I have already answered that but I can give an assurance to the House that the good offices of the senior conciliation officer are readily available at a minute's notice to reopen talks if either side wishes to do so.
Was the Minister involved in trying to open up another channel of communications in the hours leading up to the start of the dispute? If he was so involved, was the conciliation officer informed of such attempts? If the conciliation officer was not so informed, does the Minister regard it as reasonable that a conciliation officer should, as it were, be ridden with bridles like this?
Mr. Ahern
Would the Deputy repeat the last part of his question?
Was the conciliation officer informed? If he was not informed does the Minister regard that as a reasonable way for the conciliation officer to be treated?
To answer Deputy Birmingham a second time, I was not involved in talking to the conciliation officer or in any of the other talks that took place at conciliation level on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday of last week.
The question I asked was if the Minister was involved in opening up another channel?
I would like to ask the Minister——
I am sorry, Deputy Desmond, I am going on to deal with the final Private Notice Question.
May I raise the matter on the Adjournment?
I do not know yet whether there will be facilities. I will communicate with the Deputy. Will Deputy McCartan please move his Private Notice Question?
asked the Minister for the Environment if, in view of the serious public concern about the strike of members of the Dublin fire service, he will indicate the measures, if any, which have been taken to provide emergency fire cover for the city; if, in view of the fact that the dispute has its origins in the implementation by Dublin Corporation of the Government's voluntary redundancy-early retirement scheme, and as he indicated in the Dáil on 1 December 1987 that the scheme would not apply to those required to maintain essential services including the fire service, and if he will agree to make the resources available to the corporation to secure a solution to the dispute.
Arrangements have been made, in consultation with the Minister for Defence and with the co-operation of other agencies, for the Army to provide an emergency fire and accident service. Additional communications systems are in place. The necessary fully-equipped fire tenders, and vehicles to deal with road accidents, have been strategically located in the Dublin area with suitable back-up if required. The Army personnel who are manning these appliances have undergone special training in firefighting, including the use of breathing apparatus, road traffic accident techniques, etc. An effective substitute service has been operating satisfactorily for the protection of life and property since the strike started at 9 a.m. on Friday last.
Under the Government's scheme of voluntary redundancy-early retirement, local authority managers were authorised to offer the terms of the scheme to all grades of eligible staff, other than key staff or those required to maintain essential services. The question of deciding on the specific applications to be accepted is a matter for each manager to be taken against the background of the authority's financial situation including Exchequer funding for 1988. I understand from Dublin Corporation that they were satisfied that the small number of redundancies-early retirements they decided to accept in the fire brigade would not have a significant effect on the efficiency or effectiveness of the service.
Would the Minister accept that the current emergency arrangements amount to all services being centred at one barracks in the city centre area, that all initial calls to the emergency number are first investigated by the Garda to establish the extent of the problem and then relayed to the fire service that must travel from that one central location? In particular is the Minister satisfied that in one incident in regard to the Dublin docks area, the current emergency services are totally inadequate to deal with any difficulty that might arise there in the context of a fire outbreak?
The emergency services currently in place are adequate to deal with the situation at present. It is not true that all the equipment is at one location. At each of two barracks, McKee and Cathal Brugha, there are three fire appliances located. Santry Garda station and Tallaght Garda station have one fire appliance and Gormanstown Camp has also one appliance. In regard to communications, a very effective means is in place and all emergency calls are being routed through the Garda control centre at Dublin Castle. They are then verified and rerouted to the Army control headquarters which is in Collins Barracks. Then the normal alert takes place and Garda escort is provided for the appliance.
In view of the absolute lack of progress, particularly from the Corporation's point of view, in seeking a resolution of this dispute, would the Minister consider redirecting the manager with regard to the essential services that need to be maintained, particularly the fire service?
The essential services are being maintained and I can only join with my colleague, the Minister for Labour, in saying that all avenues are available to the unions if they wish to resume negotiations.
Would the Minister care to comment on the inflammatory and entirely unhelpful statements made on behalf of Dublin Corporation, with the obvious approval of the Government, in relation to this dispute? Would the Minister agree that from tomorrow, when the Eastern Health Board ambulance cover will be withdrawn, and with Dún Laoghaire fire brigade service to be withdrawn from Friday morning, the situation is far more serious and arises directly from the reduction in funding provided by the Government to Dublin Corporation.
I must now ask for a conclusion to this question and answer.
I am not responsible for what anyone else might say.
You might stop them from saying it.
If Deputy Desmond was to use his own good offices with people very close to him——
(Interruptions.)
Can the Minister for the Environment confirm that no other local authority has made the redundancy package available to its fire service? Will the Minister, as Minister for the Environment, express the wish of both parties the resolution will allow for the conthat the resolution will allow for the continuation of substantial training services in Dublin Corporation?
All county managers were authorised to offer this package across all services to all grades under their control. We are talking about quite a small reduction in the total staff, about 2 per cent of in excess of 800 firemen, and in so far as training facilities are concerned, the House can rest assured that everything will be done to provide that opportunity to all firemen when they resume duty.
That disposes of ordinary questions, questions nominated for priority and Private Notice Questions for today.