asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport when he intends to publish the Price Waterhouse report on air safety.
24.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Air Safety.
9.
asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport if the Government will consider the establishment of a civil aviation authority to monitor air traffic control services, as suggested by the Irish Airline Pilots' Association; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
27.
asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport if, in view of the increase in air traffic, and the concern expressed by the air pilots' association about the level of safety at our airports and in our airspace, he will set up an independent civil aviation authority.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 9, 24 and 27 together.
The consultants, Price Waterhouse, were employed in 1986 to carry out a review of the Air Navigation Services Office (ANSO) of my Department, which is responsible, inter alia, for the provision of air traffic control services at the three State airports, Dublin, Shannon and Cork. The purpose of the review was to take an objective look at the organisation of ANSO, its structures, equipment and staffing, to see how it was performing bearing in mind the over-riding requirement of safety and taking account of technological developments.
The consultants submitted a comprehensive report which covered all aspects of ANSO's operations. The report recommended institutional and organisational changes, as well as changes of systems, work practices and procedures, training and staffing. It also recommended a major equipment upgrading and modernisation programme involving total capital expenditure of approximately £30 million over a five year period or so. I have accepted the consultants' recommendations and the work necessary to bring about the recommended improvements has been put in hands. In 1988, capital expenditure of £3 million will be undertaken on the provision of new navigational and communications equipment at the three State airports.
One of the institutional changes recommended by the consultants was the establishment of the Air Navigation Services Office as an executive office. This will, however, have to await the enactment of enabling legislation in respect of executive offices generally. While I have accepted the consultants' recommendation in this respect, I have no plans for setting up an independent civil aviation authority.
The consultants' report is a confidential document and I do not propose to publish it. A summary of the consultants' recommendations has already been supplied to staff interests and consultation with those interests about the implementation of recommendations affecting the interests of their members has already commenced.
We have a proud record of air safety in Ireland and I intend maintaining that record. I welcome the fact that the Irish Airline Pilots' Association stressed that safety in Irish airspace is not being compromised at this time. I am satisfied that the restructured ANSO and the provision of new equipment will enable us to cater for the growth in air traffic in a safe, orderly and expeditious manner.
First, I object very strongly to Question No. 9 being lumped in with Questions Nos. 24 and 27. There might be an oblique connection but it is fairly remote. Question No. 27 is a Priority Question and I have made no reference whatsoever to the Price Waterhouse report in it. I had merely suggested to my colleague, Deputy Carey, that he should put down Question No. 9 because of the quota system which is in force.
However, with reference to Question No. 9, why is the Price Waterhouse report on air traffic control so secretive? We have had a Price Waterhouse report on the tourism industry, an excellent report, which the Government and the Minister had no hesitation in publishing. Why is this report being kept so secret? Is it because, as the Minister announced in his reply, the cost is £30 million over five years and he does not wish to expend money of that magnitude? Or is there some reason which would prejudice the safety of the State? Could the Minister please answer: why the secrecy?
I would have liked a separate answer to Question No. 27, which, incidently, is connected with Question No. 24. If the people operating the air services in and out of this country are adamant that there should be a civil aviation authority surely they are the people best qualified to know what is needed. Surely it is not correct for the Minister to say that we have an excellent record of airline and flight safety. We had two incidents quite recently at Cork Airport and an incident as late as yesterday at the airport in County Longford.
I am very anxious to faciliate the Deputy to elicit information but he is continuing to make a long speech, which is not in order at Question Time.
We have had questions linked together where there does not appear to be any obvious connection.
That is the prerogative of the Minister concerned.
I have to ask a rather long question because of that unfortunate linking up of questions. Could the Minister please say why he is ignoring the advice of the experts in not setting up the civil aviation authority?
I will take the two parts of the Deputy's supplementary questions. First, he asked why the report was not being published? It was never said that the report would be published. It was commissioned for the benefit and information of the people in charge of ANSO. The Price Waterhouse consultants reported to my predecessor, a member of the Government to which Deputy Deasy belonged and he took the decision that it should not be published at that particular time. I examined the whole situation and I saw no reason to differ in my judgment from that of Deputy Mitchell, the then Minister. That deals with the first part of the supplementary. Second, I am confident that the system being put in place, and the amount of money being spent on new equipment, will guarantee the continuance of the excellent safety record that we have at our airports.
I thank the Minister for his detailed response. However, I express profound regret at the suggestion that he will not be considering the establishment of an independent authority. Would the Minister not accept that one of the bedrock principles of safety in the provision of air traffic control is that it is monitored by an independent body, independent of the users and providers of the service and that that is an inherent shortcoming in the structures of our safety control system? It is for that fundamental reason that the Irish Airline Pilots' Association are demanding, and making such a strong and forceful case for, the provision of such an authority. It is fundamentally a principle of first order that the policing of safety is independent of considerations of costs or, indeed, of cutbacks, as seems to be the order of the day.
A Cheann Comhairle, I would like to assure the Deputy that my officers in the Department of Tourism and Transport regard themselves as independent of all operators in the aviation field.
But not independent of Government spending?
My officers in situ regard themselves as judicial, objective, and dispassionate in their assessment of safety in the country. The results have been there for all to see.
Would the Minister not consider that a secondary aspect of the whole problem is — to paraphrase an old legal maxim — that safety must not only be done, but must be seen to be done and that for people in the public area, the consumer and indeed the pilots, it is important to see an element of independence.
The Deputy has already made that point pretty eloquently.
I repeat what I have said. The Irish Airline Pilots' Association have stressed that safety in Irish airspace is not being compromised. I am absolutely confident that the system as it obtains now guarantees safety in aviation in this country.
Arising out of what the Minister said, would he not agree that the system in operation at present — as indicated in the report, which he is guarding — is sufficient, provided that the volume of air traffic remains as it is? However, the report indicates that if there are serious increases in the volume of air traffic — which has happened particularly in the last 18 months and, if things go right will continue — the system is insufficient to meet the demands of the increased volume. Questions would then have to be asked because the money to be spent would be substantially larger than the £3 million which the Minister is proposing.
I am fully confident that as business expands, and we have a vested interest in its expansion, the present structures are capable of dealing with it. We will be capable, if necessary, of expanding the service to so deal with it. I have no doubt whatsoever on that ground.
Could the Minister tell us the number of trained personnel in that section in the Department of Transport dealing with air safety?
The Deputy will have to put down another question on that matter. I have not the actual number here.
I call Question No. 10.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy Carey, you are offering rather late.
Further to all the replies of the Minister, would he not agree that this decision not to establish the authority is similar to Government practice in other areas, for instance, in the Department of the Environment where An Foras Forbartha, another advisory body, were disposed of?
Please, Deputy Carey, a question.
Is it Government policy not to have a civil aviation authority?
I do not see the parallel at all. The Deputy is talking, in the case of An Foras Forbartha, about something which is there and is being discontinued. What he is talking about here is a civil aviation authority which does not exist and which we do not intend to set up.