I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".
If I do not use my 40 minutes, may I share the time with Deputy Kenny?
Private Members' Business. - Intoxicating Liquor (Children and Young Persons) Bill, 1988: Second Stage.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
The purpose of this Bill is to amend the law in regard to the consumption and sale of alcoholic drinks by and to persons under the age of 18 years. It is now 64 years since the law relating to the availability of intoxicating liquor to persons under 18 was amended. In that time there has been a vast increase in the consumption of alcohol generally but especially among young people in their teens.
There are three main aspects to the Bill, first, the sale of alcoholic drinks to persons under the age of 18 years, secondly, the purchasing of alcoholic drinks by or on behalf of persons under the age of 18 and, thirdly, the Bill gives new powers to a member of the Garda Síochána to seize bottles or other containers, which he has reasonable cause to think contain intoxicating liquor, from persons under the age of 18 where the garda concerned suspects that an offence under sections 5, 6 or 7 of the Bill has been committed.
I am sure Members of the House will agree that the increase in the consumption of alcohol has had devastating consequences for a considerable percentage of the population, particularly among young people. Let me give some examples. In Britain every year ten times as many young people die from alcohol abuse as from the illicit use of drugs. In one youth custody centre in England, they discovered that more than half of the yearly in take of inmates had drink as a factor in their crimes. We have no reason to think that the situation disclosed by these facts would be any different in this country.
I urge that more resources be made available to enable better research to be carried out in relation to this serious problem. It is right and proper, therefore, that the law in this area should be amended to deal with the realities of the eighties as they apply to young people drinking. Under existing law, it is an offence to sell or supply intoxicating liquor to young persons under the age of 18 years. However, the reality is that in practice it is impossible to enforce this law because of the requirement contained in the 1924 Act whereby the person selling or supplying the alcoholic drink did so knowing that the person to whom he was supplying it was under the age of 18. As the House will readily agree, this in practice makes it almost impossible to prove that the drink was sold knowing that the person was under 18.
This Bill makes it an offence to sell or supply intoxicating liquor to a person under the age of 18 unless the person selling or supplying the alcohol has reasonable grounds for believing that the person to whom he sold or supplied the alcoholic drink was over the age of 18 years. I appreciate that this will perhaps impose an extra strain on publicans but we are dealing with a serious problem and it is only right and proper that those who sell alcohol should have a responsibility towards young people and make every effort to ensure that those under 18 years are not sold alcoholic liquor. A publican's defence will now be that he had reasonable grounds to assume that the person to whom he sold alcohol was over 18 years of age.
Times have changed since the 1924 Act in so far as the pattern of social behaviour among young people is entirely different. Pressures on them have greatly increased and young people have much more money to spend on alcohol. They are also much less closely supervised by their parents and all these factors influence drinking practices and patterns among the young. In many cases, sadly, they lead to crime and vandalism, low performance at school and other social problems all leading, ultimately, to a deterioration in the health of the nation.
Many Deputies will have come across, in their own constituencies, the problems resulting from so-called drink parties which are often held on open spaces, and the results arising from them. The parties go on late at night and into the next morning and members of the Garda Síochána who have been called to many of these parties told me that they can involve children as young as ten years of age. Apart altogether from the obvious consequences to the children themselves arising from these parties, the community at large, especially elderly people, feel very threatened and complain bitterly that nothing is being done to address the problem. I have tried to remedy this in the Bill and I will explain those provisions later. The regular spate of car thefts and joy riding episodes show in many cases that those involved had been engaged earlier in heavy drinking.
Some months ago I was at a public meeting in my own constituency and it was one of the largest meetings I had attended for a long time. The hall was packed with parents who were extremely concerned about the incidence of what they described as cider parties but which I call drink parties because, in fairness, from the statistics I have seen, the consumption of beer and spirits among young people is higher than cider. It is incorrect to imply that only cider is drunk and that, therefore, it is more appropriate to call them drink parties. It was frustrating, as a public representative, to listen to groups of parents expressing grave concern about the fact that these parties were being held and that when gardaí arrived very little could be done. The consequences of these parties, from the stories residents told us, are vandalism and people in fear in their homes.
The Economic and Social Research Institute published a paper in 1986 which contained some alarming statistics in relation to under-age drinking. I should like to give some examples. From those surveyed, nearly 18 per cent of 13 year olds or younger regarded themselves as regular drinkers and nearly 44 per cent of 15 year olds regarded themselves likewise. Today, these frightening figures have not improved, I suggest they have got worse. I received a small document from the Irish National Council on Alcohol which discloses some other alarming facts. A survey was carried out in Galway in 1987 among 262 young people aged 14 to 17 and some interesting comparisons were revealed; 13.2 years was the average age at which the first alcoholic drink was taken with 82.2 per cent consuming their first drink before 15 years and 9.2 per cent of ten year olds were doing likewise; 91.5 per cent of under age drinkers bought alcohol themselves without any form of false identification; 28.8 per cent took alcohol from home without their parents' knowledge and 23.7 per cent obtained drink from friends. Surely there is a need to remove the word "knowingly" when one can see from a survey of 262 young people in Galway—this is not just a Dublin problem — that 91.5 per cent of under-age drinkers bought alcohol themselves without any form of false identification. Those facts and figures speak for themselves.
It has been said, and with some justification in certain areas, that young people have very few places to go except into pubs, in other words, that there is nothing for them to do. Unfortunately, there is a limited number of very unscrupulous publicans who are prepared to sell as much drink as they can to young people without worrying about the consequences of their actions. In tightening up the laws relating to under-age drinking we should also face up to our responsibility in seeing to it that facilities are provided for young people to make it less attractive for them to find their way into the pubs. In saying this I appeal to school authorities to reappraise the policy of the use of school facilities after school hours so that whatever sporting facilities there are in such buildings can be used to the full. I would hope also that the schools would have a realistic programme of teaching young people how to handle alcohol and to point out the consequences of excessive drinking at an early age. A lot could be done also in relation to sports clubs and here the national lottery can play a very important part. To established sports clubs and youth clubs in parishes and communities throughout the country, moneys should be allocated to improve facilities and to make it more attractive for young people to join these clubs and associations and to avail of the healthy activities provided by them.
I received a very charming letter from six young children from St. Joseph's primary school, Tivoli Road, Dún Laoghaire, wishing me every success with this Bill. They also sent me a copy of The Universe dated 4 March 1988 which contained a very worth-while suggestion. These young people asked me if I would be so kind as to raise this matter to see if something could be done in regard to it. It is a fact whether we like to believe it or not that the atmosphere of pubs is very attractive to young people and why should we be surprised that they enjoy going to them? The suggestion, which could be taken up by the drinks industry, especially the soft drinks industry, is that there should be developed the concept of non-alcoholic pubs for teenagers. This idea could be taken up, too, by youth clubs etc. across the land. In other words, there is no reason the drinks companies could not try to create a pub atmosphere where people could go to listen to disco music, sit about and have a chat, the only difference being that they would be taking non-alcoholic drinks as distinct from alcoholic drinks. I think that is something we should consider. I appeal, therefore, to the drinks industry and to sporting clubs to think along these lines in future.
I would suggest that the solution to under-age drinking is not just changing the law but facing up to our responsibilities in providing proper alternative means of recreation for young people, and we have very few excuses for not doing this now that the national lottery is in place. After all, the original concept of the national lottery was to provide moneys for sporting activities.
Members of the House will see that this Bill refers only to drinking by under-age persons in licensed premises and in public places. It does not in any way impose on the privacy of the home where it should be the responsibility of the parents to supervise the drinking habits of their children and to educate them in the proper use of alcoholic drink.
Since I announced the provisions contained in this Bill over a week ago there has been some discussion in the media with regard to the use of ID cards. I want to make it quite clear that there is no provision in this Bill for the use of ID cards. However, I feel that this is a broader issue worth closer examination and exploration. There is a lot to be said for the use of such identity cards but I would hope that the discussion would continue and that the debate will be a rational and reasonable one, not one which plays on people's fears and phobias. There is nothing inherently sinister about identity cards, they are in common use every day of the week, for example, student cards, cheque-bank cards, credit cards, security cards issued in public buildings, library cards, etc.
NUJ cards as well.
There is nothing sinister about the idea of an identity card.
We should get an Oireachtas card.
There is one, Minister. We all have PRSI numbers. We have a PAYE number and we have a number on our passports. What is the mystery about having a number that identifies a card. I have heard long discussions about identity cards for young people to deal with the problem of under age drinking. My response to the journalist who asked me whether I was making provision for identity cards in this legislation was that you cannot put in a provision for identity cards without deciding who issues them and how that is to be supervised. Why should you ask somebody from nought to 18 years of age to carry an identity card and when they reach 18 to throw it away? That is the greatest insult to young people that I can imagine. If you want identity cards you must think the matter through. Let us think about it in a rational and reasonable way, let us not play on people's fears and phobias, let us not suggest that I and others are thinking about a police State. I have no desire whatever to impose on people's privacy. If you have identity cards or identity numbers it is up to us as legislators to make certain that the State will not impose on our privacy or start gathering information that could be used for all other purposes. I do not think there is anything wrong in having a proper constructive debate on this issue without playing on people's fears and phobias.
The experience of many western countries has shown that the use of identity cards can be extremely beneficial in terms of convenience to the citizen and in various commercial and business transactions.
I would like now to outline to the House the main provisions of the Bill. I will deal with the principal sections. Section 3 deals with the sale of intoxicating liquor to persons under the age of 18. Subsection (1) of this section states that the holder of any licence shall not sell or deliver intoxicating liquor to a person under the age of 18; shall not sell or deliver intoxicating liquor to any person for consumption on his licensed premises by a person under the age of 18; shall not permit a person under the age of 18 to consume intoxicating liquor on his licensed premises or permit any person to supply a person under the age of 18 with intoxicating liquor on his licensed premises. Subsection (2) obliges the holder of a licence of any licensed premises not to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor to any person for consumption off his licensed premises by a person under the age of 18 in any place other than a private residence, and subsection (3) outlines the penalties that apply if a holder of a licence contravenes subsections (1) or (2). Subsection (4) is important, as there is a major change here from what was previously in the 1924 Act. In this subsection it is stated that in any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsections (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for such person to prove that he had reasonable grounds for believing that the person in respect of whom he is alleged to have committed the offence was over the age * of 18. The main difference here is that I have removed the word "knowingly" which is in the 1924 Act, thus transferring the burden of proof.
Section 6 deals with the provision of intoxicating liquor for persons under the age of 18. Under this section it will be an offence to purchase intoxicating liquor for delivery to or consumption by a person under the age of 18 in any place other than a private residence, or to deliver intoxicating liquor to a person under the age of 18 in any place other than a private residence, or to send a person under the age of 18 to any place where intoxicating liquor is sold, delivered or distributed for the purpose of obtaining intoxicating liquor. Subsection (2) of this section outlines the penalties to be imposed on conviction.
Section 7 makes it an offence for any person under the age of 18 to purchase intoxicating liquor or to consume intoxicating liquor in any place other than a private residence. It will also be an offence for any person to represent himself, for the purpose of obtaining or being permitted to consume intoxicating liquor, to be over the age of 18.
Section 8 makes it an offence for a licence holder to allow a child under 15 years to be in the bar of his licensed premises. It will not be an offence to permit a child under 15 to be there between 10.30 a.m. and 8 p.m. provided the child is accompanied by his parent or guardian. I think this is a reasonable exception, especially in the summer months when people on holiday may want to drop into a pub for a drink or some food. For the children it takes away any mystery about what is inside the doors of a pub. Exceptions are provided for children of the licence holder and for children who are resident in the licensed premises, or simply passing through the bar.
Section 9 imposes restrictions on persons under the age of 18 being on licensed premises during extended hours. It will be an offence for a person under the age of 18 years to be on a licensed premises at any time during the period in respect of which an exemption order was granted.
Section 10 imposes restrictions on persons under the age of 18 being on premises used for the sale of intoxicating liquor for consumption off the premises. It will not be an offence for that person to be on the licensed premises if he is accompanied by his parent or guardian.
Section 11 is important. It deals primarily with the powers of a member of the Garda Síochána in relation to certain offences. It gives him the power to confiscate any bottle or container which he has reasonable cause to believe contains intoxicating liquor from persons under the age of 18 and which is in their possession in a public place. I referred to this problem earlier in the context of the so-called drink parties. If a garda is called to one of these parties and he suspects a person under the age of 18 to be in possession of alcoholic drink, he will be enabled to seize the container or bottle from that person. That is one way of dealing with the problem caused by these activities.
Section 12 prohibits the employment of persons under the age of 18 years on any licensed premises except those who are directly related to the holder of a licence, in which case the minimum age is 16 years.
Section 13 states that in relation to the proof of age of an under-age person in a prosecution under this Bill where such a person appears to the court to have been under the age of 18 years, or 15 years as the case may be, at the date of the commission of the offence, such person will be presumed to have been under that age at that date, unless the contrary is proved. This is an important change.
Section 14 amends section 4 of the Registration of Clubs (Ireland) Act, 1904. The main provision under this section prohibits the sale or supply of alcoholic drinks in club premises to any person under the age of 18 years. It also prohibits any person under the age of 18 being admitted as a member of a club unless the club is one primarily devoted to sporting purposes
I ask all parties to support this Bill. I would be pleased to listen to constructive suggestions which could improve it. With due respect to the Minister, it is a good idea to have separate legislation dealing with the problem of under-age drinking. Combining new provisions in an overall intoxicating liquor Bill which would deal with other issues such as licensing laws would take away from the seriousness of this problem. This is not a matter on which we wish to score political points. Legislation in relation to under-age drinking should be looked at from time to time, updated and changed if necessary to meet the circumstances. I ask Members to consider having separate legislation to cover this issue. I commend the Bill to the House.
I commend Deputy Barrett for his initiative in bringing forward this Bill and thank him for allowing me some of his time. I sympathise with the Minister for Justice in that this is a very difficult area in which to legislate effectively. There is a minefield of anomalies when one considers the extent and range of our licensing laws. This Bill should be seen not only as being relevant to the problem of under-age drinking but also as part of the process which is necessary in the codification and updating of the liquor licensing laws. These laws date back several hundred years and very little has been done in the past 50 years because of the difficulties encountered legislatively and the vested interests on either side of the divide in the drink business.
The problem is quite serious and has grown in extent in the past few years because of the changing social scene and the liberalisation of attitudes to alcohol, influenced not only by the media, particularly television, but also by peer pressure. I have spoken to juvenile liaison officers, young people, teachers and parents and one of the principal points with which young people fail to deal and which their elders fail to grasp properly is the extent of peer pressure. If one talks to them in their classrooms they are all right individually, but when they are brought in numbers to areas where drink is involved it is incredibly difficult for them individually to refuse to join the pack. They fall victim to peer pressure.
It is fair to say that our image abroad is associated with drink and derogatory remarks have been made about us over the years in this respect. I have worked in England and have been in the various taverns in Cricklewood and Camden Town on Friday and Saturday nights when friends, neighbours and emigrants gather there. I also have to say that I found myself outside the Crown on Monday mornings, when the head may not have been so good, and suddenly realising the consequences of peer pressure.
It is very difficult for a Government to legislate effectively in an area such as this. We have a tendency to legislate for everything, but to legislate effectively requires a different approach. For instance, marijuana, cocaine and heroin are banned, yet in some areas it appears that they can be more easily obtained than chocolates. Banning the sale of drink from particular outlets is one approach; whether it can be effectively implemented or not is another matter. In commending Deputy Barrett for drawing up this Bill, I would like to say he has tackled the kernel of the problem in relation to under-age drinking by removing the word "knowingly" from the relevent section. Obviously, this word has caused a great number of difficulties in cases where young people have been served drink. I commend him for his courage in that regard.
Deputy Barrett referred to identity cards and in that respect the Minister may be aware of a scheme which was operated in County Mayo by the Vocational Education Committee. They provided identity cards for young people and I have to say that these were effective where the scheme was properly supervised and implemented. The scheme however did not take into account those who arrived in County Mayo from outside the jurisdiction for festive occasions or those who travelled to County Mayo from other counties. This Bill places a responsibility on the publican to find out whether the person concerned is under or over 18 years of age. At discos or festive occasions everybody is over 18 years of age, or so they say. I have spoken to publicans who implemented this scheme rigorously under proper supervision and who tried to implement it in the best way possible but there are always cases where commonsense must prevail. In cases where five or six people over the age of 18 years drive over 40 miles to a festive occasion bringing one person under 18 years of age with them, a publican out of a sense of courtesy and trust might let that person into some social occasion and yet might find himself being fined for doing so. In relation to identity cards all that I can say is that in the area which I represent this scheme was a success and is well worth looking at.
There is a distinct difference between urban and rural areas in so far as drink, public houses and social occasions are concerned. One can picture a husband and wife arriving in a town on a Saturday morning to do their week's shopping, bringing three or four children with them. The husband goes off to buy his shoes and the wife goes to do her shopping with very often the children being left in a public house under the supervision of a friend or an acquaintance. Given the individual cases which arise in rural Ireland every day of the week it is very difficult to legislate effectively for this kind of occasion. There are then weddings, football matches and social occasions of all descriptions.
As Deputy Barrett had said, there is a clear need for an education programme in our schools. Obviously, moderation and discipline are necessary. Teachers in a civics programme or in the general area of education should see to it that their students are given the facts on alcohol in this regard. As I have said, peer pressure is the main reason why young people start drinking. Some parents, a minority admittedly, have shown an appalling lack of responsibility in not wanting to find out in what activities, and with whom, their children are engaged. A great number of the young people who take alcoholic drink do so without their parents knowing. This is something to be deplored. In the context of Deputy Barrett's call for an expansion of the soft drinks business, the no name clubs which were operated as an experiment around the country were quite successful and this is something which should be considered.
Once again, I commend Deputy Barrett for his initiative in bringing this Bill before the House. This matter is a source of serious concern in terms of the personal development of young people. Our image abroad has not risen greatly recently but at least in this area we can attempt to remedy the problems by legislating effectively.
I wish to commend Deputy Barrett for the contribution he has made here this evening and for the manner in which he made that contribution, and Deputy Kenny for the manner in which he assisted Deputy Barrett. I would like to say I welcome the points which were made by them.
It is generally acknowledged that under-age drinking is a serious problem in this country and, therefore, any constructive efforts to deal with it must be welcomed. For some time now, I have been concerned to establish how best to tackle this problem, so far as this can be done by amending legislation. From the examination which I have made, I am of the opinion that amending legislation can contribute to the fight against under-age drinking.
I note that Deputy Barrett's Bill follows the lines of Part IV of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1986, which lapsed with the dissolution of the 24th Dáil. I have carried out an extensive review of that Bill and a limited number of other relevant aspects of the intoxicating liquor legislation.
It has been my intention, as soon as my consultations with a wide range of groups interested in the Licensing Acts were completed, to seek Government approval to present my own Intoxicating Liquor Bill to the Dáil. The House will be pleased to know that the heads of this Bill, which will be known as the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1988, have already been approved by the Government. The Bill is now being drafted and it is my intention to have it ready for presentation to the Dail soon after Easter. For obvious reasons I cannot divulge the precise nature of the changes to be proposed in advance of publication of the Bill but I can say, however, that the Government's Bill will include provisions aimed at curbing under-age drinking, as well as provisions to deal with a range of other important aspects of the licensing laws.
Since tonight's debate is concerned only with under-age drinking, I will restrict the remainder of my comments to that important subject. First of all, I would like to say that, while I consider that a more general approach to the amendment of the licensing laws is appropriate, there is little in the particular provisions of Deputy Barrett's Bill with which I could not agree. Any differences I would have would be on matters of detail.
As I have said, it is clear that we have an under-age drinking problem in this country. I also have no doubt that legislation will improve matters. However, I would remind Deputies of the old saying that one cannot legislate for virtue. What legislation can do is to make it more difficult for under-age persons to obtain drink directly — whether from pubs, clubs, discos, off-licensed premises or wherever else it can be obtained. Legislation can also make it more difficult for young persons to obtain alcohol through third parties. Enforcement can be made easier by removing obstacles which would hinder the Garda in their difficult task of detecting and prosecuting breaches of the law. Legislation can also provide a realistic range of penalties where persons have been convicted of breaking the law.
In other words, legislation can provide a framework with which society can identify and within which it knows it has the support and backing of the entire State apparatus. Of course, the law must be fair to all, and it must be enforceable, or else it quickly falls into disrepute. There is a tendency in some instances to put all the blame for under-age drinking on licensees, whether publicans, off-licence owners or the owners of licensed hotels or restaurants, and to demand punitive legislation against such people.
In fact, I am happy that most of those involved in the liquor business are responsible people, but there are some — a small minority — who in their anxiety to make money have no scruples as to the age or condition of people to whom they sell drink. Even a tiny minority of such people can cause enormous damage because it quickly becomes known to under-age people in the area that there are premises where they can get drink with little difficulty. We have to stop those practices without at the same time penalising the law-abiding licensees who, as I have said, form the great majority in the drinks trade. We have to be mindful also that drinking moderately is a normal social activity and we must be careful that, while recognising its potential for harm, we do not marginalise it or turn it into some type of quasi-legal practice. The problem is the abuse of alcohol and not alcohol itself.
We can, therefore, as legislators, do a certain amount to curb under-age drinking. But legislation alone will never solve the problem. The only way to do that is through a concerted effort at every level in society to confront the problems caused by alcohol abuse. One will not solve the problem of under-age drinking while there is large-scale alcohol abuse by adults. However, conversely, if we can curb abuses of alcohol by persons who are under 18 this will help to mitigate excessive drinking by older age-groups and especially by young adults. Bad habits learnt young can last a lifetime.
On the other hand, responsible attitudes acquired at a young age can also be lasting.
Traditionally, in this country, we have tended to extend a good deal of tolerance towards people who over-indulge in alcohol. While attitudes are changing, it may be that we are still, as a society, too lenient in our attitudes to drink abuse. I suppose much of this tolerance has to do with our Christian traditions and sympathetic attitudes towards persons experiencing problems in their personal lives. But that sympathy is misplaced where it helps to shield those who drink to excess from the awful consequences of such abuse.
Thus, a too lenient approach to drink abuse by workmates who fill in for those who are constantly absent from work because of it, ultimately does no favours to the victim himself. We do no favours to persons who drive cars while under the influence of drink, or to their victims, by our tolerance for such anti-social behaviour. We certainly do no favours to families affected by alcoholism or the hospitals and health services which have to cope with its manifestations. As a society, we should do everything we can to discourage attitudes which help to give rise to such problems and actively encourage the people affected to seek assistance. Of course, we should do everything possible to meet the problem by amending legislation in so far as that can help.
I could speak at great length about the problem of drink abuse generally but I am only mentioning it tonight to set in context the influences which prompt young people to start experimenting with alcohol. Many of those who over-indulge in alcohol, or simply accord it a disproportionately important place in their lives by, for example, spending long hours in licensed premises every night of the week, are themselves parents. Perhaps they should ask themselves more frequently how their behaviour influences their childrens' lives as they grow up. It is no use for parents to complain about their adolescent childrens' drinking, while blaming it on lack of adequate legislation or lack of non-alcoholic social outlets for young people, if they themselves are actively giving bad example through their own drinking habits. It is even worse for parents not to confront their childrens' drinking where they know or suspect it is going on.
In the first instance, therefore, under-age drinking has to be tackled by parents through good example in the home and elsewhere. Parents can also do a great deal by helping their children to become involved in activities and entertainments in which alcohol plays no part. In the home and in the community, the good example and responsible life-styles of the parents are of paramount importance. Parents and the community generally should, of course educate children to the dangers of alcohol abuse. However, the primary and continuing responsibility must remain with parents. If responsible attitudes are inculcated in the home, we can hope to deal successfully with the problem of under-age drinking. If that is not done, legislation can only be of limited assistance.
As I said earlier, I cannot reveal at this stage the details of the impending Government legislation to amend the licensing laws but in general principle, I find little to disagree with in the provisions of the Bill before us tonight. As was the case with the lapsed 1986 Bill, Deputy Barrett's Bill provides for the deletion of the word "knowingly" from sections 10 and 11 of the Intoxicating Liquor (General) Act, 1924. It also bans the sale of alcohol from off-licences to persons under the age of 18. New offences created would outlaw the purchase of alcohol by persons under 18 and its consumption by those persons in a public place. For some time now, these aspects have been the main targets of campaigners for reform of the law on under-age drinking and anyone preparing a Bill to tackle the problem in a serious way would have to deal with those matters as a starting point.
In view of the impending Government legislation I will be listening with interest to all the comments and suggestions made in this debate. The Bill now before the House will, I trust, serve a useful purpose in eliciting the views of Deputies as to what can be done by way of legislation to deal with the serious problem of under-age drinking.
In reply to one point raised by Deputy Kenny, I appreciate the consideration for what I am trying to do in bringing legislation before the House. I thought it would have been an easier task than it is, after a number of months trying to get legislation to where it is at the present time, and I hope to have it ready in a matter of days in the new term. There are many and varying interests involved in this area and one has to be like Solomon in one's approach to ensure that effective legislative proposals can be brought before the House, proposals which will be seen to be fair and which will cater for the good of the community. That is my only purpose in delay, to date.
I say that with the greatest sincerity. I am not saying it by way of reply to criticisms levelled at me yesterday by people involved in one of the groups. No group in the liquor trade can take it upon themselves to think they have a right to draft the legislation. The legislative proposals that come to this House will be here for the type of debate we are having here tonight. Everybody in this House will be as well informed as I am on the problems we have to deal with. We are all very familiar with this area and if amendments are put forward by any Member of this House that can be shown as better than what is in the Bill or can improve what is in the Bill I will welcome them. If the combined wisdom of all the Members of this House can give us effective legislation to deal with the problems we all know exist, legislation that is enforceable — and that is an important aspect of it — I will be satisfied.
I take the point Deputy Barrett made here tonight on the question of criticisms that have been levelled at him unfairly to date in regard to identification cards. If matters have to be discussed we can do it here and I welcome any matter Deputy Barrett will put forward for discussion in that and any other areas. I am as conscious as any other Member of this House of a feeling, real or imaginary, that big brother is watching if we have indentification cards and I would resent being watched by big brother as much as would anybody else in this House. We might get over that difficulty by perhaps not having an identification card but something like voluntary age of majority card. I agree with Deputy Barrett that as long as the word "knowingly" is in that legislation as it is to date we cannot hope to enforce legislation effectively to help to curb under-age drinking. I hope that during the course of this debate we will have the views of everybody and anybody and that practically every Member of this House will contribute because we all are or should be concerned about this matter. The Bill affects all sections of our community right across the board.
Again I thank Deputy Barrett for giving us this opportunity. I find no area where I am in any disagreement with him except perhaps on small detail. I look forward to a worth-while debate on Deputy Barrett's proposals within a week or two of the start of the new term when I hope to come before the House with the Government's proposals covering the area. I would welcome help and support from all sides of the House in getting worth-while legislation on the Statute Book updating legislation which is 40 or 50 years old. That is long overdue.
I agree that the thanks of the House are due to Deputy Seán Barrett for introducing this Bill and I welcome the very balanced response and assessment the Minister has given in his comments on the Bill. He has given a very good analysis of the situation as we have to face it. I do not envy him his task in piloting through a comprehensive measure encompassing the whole field of intoxicating liquor law. That is a minefield and contains legislation going back to the time of Charles II or even earlier perhaps. In the last Dáil I was Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Legislation who were conducting an inquiry for quite some time. Many Members here were members of that committee. We had quite a number of oral hearings and took evidence from all sorts of interested parties including the Mayo group referred to by Deputy Kenny. Even though I practise law, that brought home to me what a minefield the whole area is. The legislation is a major matter and will be a major undertaking both for the parliamentary draftsman to prepare it and the Minister to pilot the comprehensive measure through the House. I assure him of the full support of the Labour Party in bringing forward meaningful, enforceable legislation in that respect and I look forward to seeing the Bill when it appears.
However, this Bill is much more limited in its extent. It seeks just to deal with under-age drinking. Perhaps we should at least proceed with Deputy Barrett's Bill and process it through as many Stages in the Houses of the Oireachtas as may be appropriate until it might be overtaken by a more comprehensive measure of the Minister's. It may well be that the Minister's measure will be deferred or delayed by pressures of Dáil time or whatever and I would like to see at least under-age drinking tackled even only as an interim basis perhaps to be superseded in a year or so by the Minister's measure. The Minister indicated that his Bill will include the whole spectrum of the law in this regard and it might take a considerable time to process that through both Houses.
I agree with most of what the Minister said. There is no good in bringing in a law unless it can be enforced. We have laws, particularly in the under-age drinking field and theoretically it ought to be possible for the Garda to deal with that situation superficially. The reality is different and it brings the whole of the law into disrepute when publicans and others can disregard the main thrust of intent of the law there, which is to curb under-age presence in pubs and the ready availability of alcohol to young people under age in both licensed and off-licence premises.
Deputy Barrett's Bill in effect appears to place the onus of proof on the publican. It provides that it is an offence if he supplies drink to a person who turns out to be under the age of 18. That is a reversal of the normal procedures in the criminal law under which the intent has to be there on the part of the person accused, but there are special cases where that normal situation has to be reversed. It is not unusual so far as offences under the Children Acts are concerned. Other offences already exist under the Children Acts where the presumption is that the person is under the age of 18 unless the contrary is proved. The same is sought to be done here. It is a fair and balanced way of tackling the problem and is reasonable enough.
I have some reservations about identity cards, although we heard representations from the Mayo group in oral evidence before the Oireachtas committee and I was very impressed at the way those people were tackling the situation in Mayo, which gave me considerable food for thought. It would be a nice idea if we could bring that in in some acceptable way countrywide, but I have some reservations about it. However, those people are doing a great job on that issue in County Mayo.
The Bill strikes the right balance. We have to tackle the problem. We cannot let it soldier on as it has been going on. I cannot and do not purport to speak for the rural areas referred to by Deputy Kenny but I understand the situations he described in rural towns. I do not know whether it will be possible to work into the legislation some way to cope with that but it should not be beyond the bounds of drafting ingenuity to do so. In the general Dublin area certain public house establishments hold themselves out as and are known to be places where young people will go who are under age and well under age and there is no problem and that is recognised and accepted. That is totally unacceptable and must be tackled and dealt with. The Garda have done their best but they are in a hopeless situation as the law stands at present. We have to give them the means to tackle this. As the Minister said, the drinking habits formed by many in their younger years lead them to become hardened drinkers later, leading to all sorts of appalling problems in adult drinking with broken homes, beatings, wife beating, and all these things leading on to crime and so on.
I am often amazed at the ambivalent attitude we have here to alcohol. We tend to draw a distinction between alcohol on the one hand and drugs on the other. The reality is that there is no difference. Alcohol is a drug and there is no question about it. I have discussed the matter with many medical people and many regard alcohol as more of a drug problem than marijuana or pot and possibly even than heroin. I would posit the position to the House that more misery, more crime, more upset and more physical abuse leading to illness and death from alcohol related diseases is caused by alcohol abuse than is caused by drug abuse. Yet we have been traditionally ambivalent about it.
Having said that, it is not enough to come in here and say we must bring the hammer down on this situation where young people are concerned. We have to do more than that. We have not adequately lived up to our responsibilities over the years. We have a responsibility in the education field, through the schools, that we have never met. The Minister is right in saying that the primary responsibility lies with parents. I can say, as a parent, that it is not an easy responsibility to meet. Deputy Kenny was absolutely right when he talked about peer pressure. I know from personal experience that it is a very real and difficult thing to cope with. That is not to decry the element of parental responsibility. It is there and it is very important. But we have not made available in the schools sufficient in the way of a health education programme, either in the primary schools or, more particularly, in the post-primary schools. The Minister should have a number of serious discussions with the other Departments concerned in this, such as the Department of Education, leading to the provision of a proper health education programme in all schools, not just in some. I know it is provided in some schools and a fine job is being done. But this programme should be broadly based in all the primary and post-primary schools. Resources should be made available through the Department of Education to have courses, talks and seminars given to the children to explain the situation and what it means in relation to their health as young people and later on as adults. We have failed badly in that regard. Yet this is a very important part of the battle against under-age drinking. It is a tough battle, and even with the legislation behind us it will still be a tough battle to fight. That is one aspect of what we have to do.
No less important is ensuring that the State makes available the necessary alternatives to the social pull of the teenage drinking establishments centred on the relatively low number of pubs that are the centres for this activity. A number of community halls and community centres, not enough, have been provided in some areas. But they do not meet what is needed so far as teenage drinking is concerned. Those community halls, many built with the excellent help provided through AnCO and through grants from local authorities and, to some extent, from central funds, tend to be sport orientated; they tend to be bare halls — and I do not decry their importance — for sporting purposes. But they are not the alternative that is necessary to the social cosy atmosphere that is presented in the pubs where young people congregate. A different kind of set-up is required with smaller rooms, carpeted and comfortable, where billiards or cards could be played and films seen, in a comfortable social setting, in a comfortable social centre. That kind of setting has to be provided where there are concentrations of youth. This may sound a bit airy fairy in times of financial constraint but if we want to tackle this problem this is one way to do it. It is a very serious problem and a growing one. The incidence of adult alcoholism is, unfortunately, on the increase as is juvenile drinking. It is taking a serious toll on our young people and on the adult population. The numbers disclosed in the reports are quite frightening.
Deputy Kenny touched on the rural situation. One survey tested out the situation regarding the availability of drink to young people. He organised a group of 14 and 15 year olds and sent them watched, unknown to the publicans concerned, around the various drinking establishments in a number of rural towns. They were refused drink in a few of the establishments but in most of them they had no problem in getting all the drink they wanted served to them.
If we want to tackle the overall problem of alcoholism we have to tackle it at the earlier stages of under-age drinking. It is a fact that alcoholism rarely develops overnight. In the case of many young people who drink in their teens alcoholism is not diagnosed until they are in their early twenties when they come to seek treatment.
There are a number of incidental provisions that we will have to look at on Committee Stage. We need to make sure that the licence holder in each case is the person who carries the responsibility here. Very often a manager is left in charge and the licence holder then seeks to escape responsibility for what goes on in his premises when the manager is there. That should not happen. If we mean business on this issue — and if we do not we should not do it — then the licence holder must know that he carries the can if the law is not observed when passed. We should consider writing into the Bill — and this can be teased out more on Committee Stage — that if a licence holder tends to ignore the law and two or three convictions are recorded against him the question of closing down his establishment for a month or two as a lesson to him will arise. This would be an indication that we mean business on this. The important thing is that there should be a strict liability, that the responsibility is on the licence holder. It is up to him to make sure that he is dealing with adults and not with young people as defined in the Bill.
The situation in regard to the off-licences is a matter of serious concern. What worries me is the way in which drink is on display mixed with cornflakes and groceries. There is no separate section provided for drink in the off-licence premises and that is serious. In licensed premises the area in which the drink may be sold is very clearly defined with maps and so on when the application is made and the licensee cannot sell the drink one inch beyond the boundary. That is not so with the off-licence. In that premises the drink is displayed side by side with the groceries and everybody, including children, has access to it. Provision ought to be made in the legislation that in the off-licences there must be a completely cordoned off, separated section where the alcoholic liquor is stored and sold. It should not be allowed to be mixed with groceries on the shelves.
The legislation should provide that suitable notices are displayed in unlicensed premises and in off-licence premises setting out what the new law is, what the age directives are and what the implications are for young people breaking the law in this regard and also for the licensee. It should be obligatory to have these notices on display at all appropriate outlets.
While it is not directly the subject matter of the Bill, the question of the number of exemptions and extensions being granted in this day and age will have to be considered. They are increasing out of all proportion and the situation is getting completely out of hand. I imagine this may be one of the items the Minister will be looking at in his measure. He is nodding and I am pleased because that is a very important matter and I look forward to seeing some measure of control there.
I am pleased that the measure is coming before the House and that we will quickly see some improvement in this area. Many publicans have offended against the existing legislation by allowing juveniles onto their premises and by setting up attractions in their premises such as pool tables, slot machines, musical groups and so on, specifically directed towards attracting young people. Unfortunately, the Garda have not been able to implement the law. We cannot, as a society, free ourselves from responsibility in this area. We have responsibilities and we have not met them. As part and parcel of bringing in new legislation to control this situation we too must meet our side of the bargain and our responsibilities on the issue by making sure that health education is stepped up on a broad basis in the schools and that we channel increased funds into providing alternative social centres where young people can meet.
In that way they will not be in the position, as many of them are at present, where if they want to socialise and get together with their peers, the only place available for them to do so is in the pub where drink is the order of the day. Many young people do not want that. They would be happy if they had a comparable, cosy place to go and meet their peers. We have a responsibility not just to bring in these extensions to the criminal law, which is what it is, but to look to the social side as part and parcel of that objective. I assure the mover, and the Minister when he brings in his Bill, of the full support of the Labour Party in bringing in much needed, up-dated legislation and improvements in this complex branch of the law.
I thank Deputy Barrett for bringing forward this Bill which deals directly with under-age drinking. I welcome what the Minister has said in relation to the intoxicating liquor Bill which he will bring forward in 1988. I have one great phrase and that is "the quality of life"— I am thinking about the quality of life for people living in areas where young people congregate and drink and abuse alcohol. There are two things to be done in relation to this matter, one involving the carrot and the other the stick. The law will have to be changed, as has been suggested. Alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs available and yet young people of 12 and 13 years of age can partake of this drug with the greatest of ease. As has been mentioned earlier, parents have a great responsibility in this regard and very often do not realise the dangers of leaving this dangerous drug in presses in the home when they go out at night. They then wonder what is the reason for their children abusing alcohol at such a young age.
In the inner city which I represent certain people will do anything for money and encourage people to come to their premises. As the Minister mentioned earlier, you can have any law you like but someone will break it. Young people know where alcohol can be obtained and they travel eight or ten miles for it every night. In one part of my constituency large numbers of young people, up to ten or 15 in a group, go to premises to see if they will be served. Everyone knows they are under age but the Garda can do nothing about this because there is no law to prevent those young people from going into the streets or to a park to drink alcohol. The law should be changed in this regard. It should be illegal for people to consume alcohol on an open thorough-fare. This would create a problem when people attend a function in a public park and wish to have an alcoholic drink but there is no doubt that something must be done about the matter.
The question of identification cards has been mentioned, but who should have these cards? Naturally these people would have to be over 18 years of age. At what age would people not need identification cards? Would it be at 24 or 26 years of age or would it be 60 years of age? That is a problem. Who would administer the cards and state that such a person is John Smith who lives in such and such a house? Would it be his brother or his cousin? Some people are not keen on the whole idea of identification cards. When we speak about big brother we often wonder if he is the cause of the problem of young people drinking. Very often young people go drinking with their big brother or big sister. They may go with them to an off-licence or a disco and purchase this very dangerous drug. Statistics on AIDS show that, uniquely worldwide, something like 60 per cent of AIDS carriers here contracted the disease through the intravenous usage of drugs. The whole concept of young people subjecting themselves to the possible contraction of this disease in that way worries me enormously.
I spoke recently to a parent whose young son of 13½ years had travelled to Wales to play a football match there. The father had warned him to keep well away from alcohol while on board ship. However, when he spoke to his son afterwards he discovered that not alone were he and his companions of similar age drinking beer but they had actually purchased vodka on board. I was horrified to hear of this incident. When one speaks to voluntary alcohol counsellors, working in the different alcohol-related organisations throughout the city, they will tell one that young people in schools do not realise the potential dangers to which they are subjecting themselves. For example, if they begin drinking alcohol at 12 and 13 years of age their liver will have been damaged, in extreme cases, by the time they will have reached 18 and, before reaching the age of 21, they will have developed into full-blown alcoholics.
It is timely that we should be discussing the provisions of this Bill. It is also timely that the Minister should be examining the introduction of an intoxicating liquor Bill to cater for the problems of this modern age. Unless something positive is done very soon we shall have to cope with a horrendous problem within the next ten years because I have no doubt but that it will worsen as time progresses.
On St. Patrick's Day a huge number of people attended the parade in this city. A handful headed to one part of the city. At 3 o'clock on that afternoon I saw young people with containers, wrapped in brown paper parcels, heading up O'Connell Street. Therefore, it did not surprise me to read the following morning that there had been some serious incidents perpetrated by a very small number of people. I am sure that, if asked the following day, they would say they had not the faintest idea what they were doing, that their minds had become totally blank through the abuse of alcohol. Indeed in most such cases it is cider young people drink. I have often thought that the sale of cider to young people should be prohibited, especially when one sees young people carrying two litre containers. They can purchase one of these large containers, spend the night in a park, derelict site or wherever, putting themselves beyond the bounds of any sense of reality through the drinking of excessive quantities of cider. In this respect the Minister might consider insisting on cider being sold in smaller quantities, the normal, smaller bottle and also the more easily identifiable. I know that suggestion has been put forward already. In my constituency, the local residents association has objected to certain licensees selling alcohol to children below the permitted age. In one such case a justice said it was up to the politicians to do something about the law in this respect. But it must be remembered that one cannot legislate to cover every eventuality.
Who granted the licence?
The relevant justice at the time.
In fact it is within the law obtaining that one can sell cider to somebody over 15 years of age.
Then the problem arises of who will say that such and such a child was 16 years of age when they bought the cider. Members of residents associations will endeavour to prove it and the Garda work in close liaison with them. It is then very difficult for a justice to reach a decision. What is he to do? Does he withdraw the licensee's licence? Does he decide that the relevant licensee cannot sell cider and, in one case, a justice decided that cider could not be on display in one premises. I believe that decision has been appealed. I am not sure what is the present position in relation to it. Does a justice say, in another case; there is a problem in this area; are the opening hours to be curtailed; must we ensure that a particular off-licence premises closes at 6.30 p.m. in order to prevent people coming in at, say, 8 o'clock? Is that to be regarded as one solution? Sometimes, in a rather strange way, one can feel sorry for a licensee or supplier because after all, he has a business to run, but it is difficult to feel sorry for him when one knows that some young people will have travelled long distances to purchase alcohol on his premises. It never ceases to amaze me that young people travel such distances when other suppliers will not sell to them, why it is they must travel to one district to purchase alcohol.
Deputy Kenny referred to the rural scene, very different from the city one in that people are more easily recognised whereas, in the city, young people can move almost from one street to another and not be recognised. In this way it may be possible for a parent in Deputy Kenny's constituency to ask a local supplier not to sell alcohol to his son or daughter.
They manufacture their own in the country.
It is quite possible they manufacture their own. It surprises me that young people do not normally drink spirits, usually it is cider and the cheaper wines. There is one wine they purchase to which they will add an ale or lager, giving it that extra strength or boost. All of these practices must be covered by the law. However, it must be remembered that the law can be effective to a certain degree only. Parents need to do much more by way of educating their young children to the dangers of the usage or abuse of alcohol. I have already tabled a question to the Minister for Education in relation to that aspect which I hope will be answered on another occasion.
I heartily welcome the introduction of this Bill and the Minister's intention of introducing a Bill as soon as possible in the next parliamentary session. I also welcome the Minister's remarks that he will welcome deliberations on the part of all Members of this House.
With the permission of the House, I think my colleague, Deputy Stafford, is allowing me to share his time.
Deputy Stafford had not so indicated.
I thought Deputy Lawlor might like to finish up.
There are certain regulations we must honour here. If it is the intention of the Deputy, who is entitled to 30 minutes, to share it with a colleague he should formally advise the Leas-Cheann Comhairle who will then put it to the House and get the agreement of the House to such an arrangement.
I am sorry I did not consult with you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but I thought the time had just expired. I had indicated to Deputy Lawlor that, if I finished beforehand, he could take over.
Is the House agreeing with the request of Deputy Stafford to allow the balance of his time to Deputy Lawlor? Agreed. Deputy Lawlor has one minute.
I should like to thank my colleagues for their co-operation. This is probably a topic which is dear to the hearts of all Members of the House and some decisive action should be taken on it. Deputy Barrett is to be complimented on bringing forward his Private Members' Bill tonight. The Minister is already at a very advanced stage of taking decisive action on the same topic so hopefully the House will as it proceeds to adopt legislation on this very important subject, make progress and get agreement and approval. Deputy Stafford referred to the complexities, legalities and complications of trying to control the sale of alcohol, rules and regulations and decisions made by the courts.
Debate adjourned.