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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Dec 1988

Vol. 385 No. 8

Supplementary Estimates, 1988. - Vote 33: Agriculture and Food.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1988, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Food, including certain services administered by that Office, and of the Irish Land Commission, and for payment of certain grants, subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.

I also wish to indicate that there is provision — which I will be asking the House to adopt — for a sum of £55,000 as distinct from the sum of £40,000 in the printed Estimate for the Equestrian Federation of Ireland.

On behalf of the Equestrian Federation of Ireland I thank the Minister and the Taoiseach. I am glad we have one horse lover in the Cabinet.

The Deputy will appreciate that I was engaged elsewhere up to about a half an hour ago but I was in communication by telephone during the course of a very long night and day.

I have been in communication with the Minister for about three weeks on this point and I graciously thank him.

It is very nice to have the opportunity of introducing this very important Supplementary Estimate which is for an additional sum of £22.836 million which is offset by additional receipts of £5.1 million and savings on various subheads totalling £17.735 million. The net amount to be voted, therefore, is a token sum of £1,000.

The main items where additional expenditure arise are farm improvement programme, additional grant-in-aid for Teagasc, special premium on exports of beef to the United Kingdom and general disease control and eradication.

On the capital side, I am providing an extra £8 million under subhead L. 1. This subhead covers the various schemes aimed at encouraging on-farm investment as well as such measures as the young farmers installation premium and the western package. The £8 million is being provided to accelerate clearance of all the outstanding grants due under those schemes. As Deputies know, because of the limitations of the funds available there have been delays in the payment of those grants. Not only will all these arrears now be cleared but in future grants will be paid as they arise.

In seeking this extra £8 million from Government I was particularly conscious of the fact that capital works undertaken by farmers by way of new buildings and improvements are extremely valuable in creating employment in rural areas. Farmers continue to plough a good deal of their income into these kinds of activity and I am glad to say that the indications are that investment has been very bouyant this year. As well as reflecting the buoyancy of farm incomes generally, this situation is a clear expression of confidence by farmers in the future of the industry.

Much of the current farm investment is going into the provision of facilities for control of pollution from farm waste. This is a welcome trend in view of the incidents of river pollution and fish kills in the past. Not only did those incidents do serious damage to the rural environment but they also damaged our image abroad. That image of an open, pollution-free rural environment from which we produce pure, natural and wholesome food is one of the most powerful marketing tools we have for boosting sales of our farm products. Farmers themselves now recognise that fact and indeed it is a tribute to their sense of responsibility that incidents of river pollution were very few during 1988. It is clear that while the country benefits in many respects from the favourable green image we have throughout the world — for example in the areas of tourism and industrial investment — the main risk from any erosion of that image attaches to our food exports.

The very generous rates of grant now available in disadvantaged areas for animal housing and for provision of waste storage and anti-pollution facilities are a powerful incentive to farmers to make those investments. These high rates of grant became possible when I succeeded earlier this year in securing a 70 per cent rate of EC recoupment under the revised western package. Apart from enabling grants of 45 per cent to 55 per cent to be paid, that rate of recoupment was a significant breakthrough in the context of the increased structural funds that will be accruing to us. Incidentally, the package we have been negotiating for the last few days in Brussels will have further evidence of that rate of recoupment when it is concluded.

Turning to the main non-capital items, I am providing additional grant-aid of £8 million for Teagasc — the Agriculture and Food Development Authority. As Deputies will recall, the Government's objective in setting up Teagasc was to ensure that by combining our agricultural research, training and advisory services we would establish a strong single agency for the effective delivery of the support services vital to the agriculture and food sectors. The critical importance of these sectors was again underlined by the recent Teagasc report that agricultural output is set to exceed £3 billion this year, for the first time.

It will be recalled that I provided in the Teagasc legislation for priority to be given to the training of young farmers and to food research. In addition, I left the House in no doubt about the commercial orientation which the new Authority would be expected to have. Good intentions alone, of course, are not enough. I, therefore, appointed as members of the Authority a team of highly motivated people with excellent credentials. I took the view that only a high-calibre Authority could provide an efficient and cost-effective service relevant to the present and future needs of those sectors. I am particularly pleased by the manner in which the chairman and his colleagues have set about the task of welding the existing services into a dynamic organisation which will be geared to play a pivotal role in developing the Delors philosophy, involving the development of family farm units, the enhancement of rural society and the preservation of the environment. This will benefit not only the rural community but our economy as a whole.

With increased farm income and the development of new market outlets, the great challenge facing Teagasc is to build on the impetus created by these developments so that we can realise our aim of being a dominant force in world markets.

I expect to have the Authority's detailed proposals on the reorganisation of the services very shortly. I know — and have been impressed by — the members' willingness to explore all avenues in their efforts to meet the Government's objectives in establishing Teagasc. I have indicated many times in the House that the Authority would not lack essential funds and I am now happy to deliver on that commitment by providing an additional £8 million this year under subhead B. 4.

I should like to refer to the ESRI survey recently published which stated that 40 per cent of young entrants to farming had no educational qualifications and that a further 40 per cent had only group or intermediate certificates. This gives a false impression although I am not accusing the authors of intending to do so. The figures in the report relate to a period up to 1982 and the position has changed dramatically since then. The report is six years out of date and that should have been noted in the comments which following its publication. Of the 2,000 young people entering agriculture annually, about 90 per cent participate in comprehensive training programmes run by Teagasc and of those over 60 per cent have leaving certificates. A further 30 per cent have intermediate or group certificates, leaving under 10 per cent with no qualifications. I hope this will get at least as much publicity as the facts relating to 1980 or 1981 which caused so much concern and reaction.

Teagasc have a first-class vocational programme for young farmers, principally the three year certificate in farming course. The introduction of this course — and the fruit it has so obviously borne in the meantime — is one of ACOT's finest achievements. I have every confidence that Teagasc will prove equally innovative in the services it will provide to agriculture.

The £3 million provided for under subhead L. 7 is necessary to enable payment of that amount in variable premium on beef exports to the United Kingdom.

Irish exports of cattle and beef to the United Kingdom qualify for benefit under the UK variable premium scheme. These payments are made directly by the UK authorities to my Department calculate the amounts payable to individual meat factories. It is now estimated that receipts from the UK authorities in 1988 will reach £16 million, an increase of £3 million on the original estimate. There are a number of reasons for this increase, the principal ones being a higher level of beef exports to the United Kingdom than was originally anticipated and a fall in the value of the Irish pound against sterling. The additional £3 million now being sought is balanced by corresponding higher receipts from the UK Government under subhead M. 25.

Under subhead C. 3, which relates to general disease control, it is necessary to make special provision for an extra sum of £2.2 million. This arises out of the very rigid policy which we in this country have followed down through the years in order to keep the country free of exotic animal diseases. Let me assure the House that we will continue to folow that very rigid policy because of our unique reputation in the area of animal health control. The kind of diseases I am talking about are, for example, foot and mouth disease, swine fever, Newcastle disease in poultry, and so on. These highly dangerous diseases are scheduled as class A diseases under the Diseases of Animals Act. They are exotic to this country and the fact that we are free of them gives us an exceptionally high health status for trade purposes. This status guarantees the access of our meat and dairy products to the most demanding — in terms of health standards — importing countries all over the world.

In order to maintain that status, we follow a policy of immediate compulsory slaughter of animals or birds whenever we get an outbreak of one of the scheduled diseases and in such cases full compensation is paid for the animals or birds slaughtered.

Avian influenza is a scheduled class A disease and, following the policy I have just outlined, when outbreaks of this disease were encountered in County Monaghan in 1983 and 1984 the flocks involved were duly slaughtered compulsorily. Since then the matter of compensation has been in dispute with the flock owners concerned. The dispute hinged round the precise value that should be placed on breeding stocks. The flock owners were dissatisfied with the level of compensation offered to them and decided to institute court proceedings for a very much higher sum. In the event, the matter was settled prior to the court proceedings and to the satisfaction of both parties. The sum being provided now represents the outcome of that settlement.

I should say that we have been very fortunate in that we suffer very few outbreaks of class A diseases and up to now we have managed to cope with them very effectively whenever they have occurred. Such outbreaks of disease as have occurred, like the one for which funds are being provided in this Estimate, have been quickly identified, contained and eliminated. The relatively small cost to the Exchequer in such cases is a small price to pay for preservation of our disease free status.

I would like to reiterate the importance of total co-operation from all sections of the community, particularly from people coming into the country at airports and other points of access. I was very conscious of this today. People may take these notices from my Department as matters of routine but they are not. They are very important notices meant to guarantee a very unique health status. We have enjoyed the co-operation of the public at large and the farming community, but it is vitally important that that co-operation continues, particularly over the Christmas period.

It must be said, however, that with the ever-increasing volume of movement between here and Europe — both of people and of goods — the risk of introducing disease is greater than ever. Simultaneously the size of production units is tending to increase and that has cost implications when it comes to compensation. We cannot, therefore, relax our customary vigilance at ports and elsewhere or fail to take every legitimate precaution to avoid introducing disease.

The additional provision of £700,000 under subhead K4. is required to meet payments due to the land bond fund in respect of land acquired by the Land Commission. These payments represent the difference between the cost of servicing the bonds and the total receipts from the use of the land and were underestimated in the 1988 Estimates.

I would like to draw special attention also to other items in the Supplementary Estimate. The first is the provision of £0.5 million to the Racing Board under subhead H. 3. This amount is being provided in 1988 as an incentive towards the refurbishment and improvement of racecourses throughout the country. The allocation is a tangible indication of the Government's support for the racing industry and of the extremely valuable role which racing plays in attracting and entertaining visitors to this country.

Most of the £0.5 million has been allocated to Fairyhouse racecourse which has now been brought up to a standard as a centre for national hunt racing that rivals the best known racing centres elsewhere. Smaller grants are being allocated to a number of smaller racecourses around the country to encourage them to carry out the improvements that will provide a more comfortable environment and better facilities for their patrons. By doing this, these smaller courses can build up better attendances of visitors and punters alike.

The other item is the provision of £55,000 under subhead H. 4 to the Equestrian Federation of Ireland towards the cost of sending a national showjumping team to the Olympic Games in Seoul. The House will recall that the Government intervened to guarantee this sum when it became apparent that there would be no prospect otherwise of having a team in Seoul. The Government considered that for Ireland — the country recognised worldwide as the home of good horses — not to have a team at the Olympics would be a very serious omission indeed. A number of the interests associated with the horse industry supported that view.

It has been said, of course, that our team did not do all that well in Seoul. That is a point of view but considering the rushed preparation and the non-availability of some good horses at the time, the team faced an enormous challenge. The important thing is that an Irish team was there. I believe lessons can be learned from this year's experience and that we have every opportunity to be much better geared for Barcelona in 1992.

The programme for the development of the non-thoroughbred horse industry which I introduced recently and which has been very well received all round will, I believe, provide a solid foundation for the longer term production of good horses.

Under subhead L. 10, a sum of £160,000 is being provided to meet expenditure in the current year on the Government's pilot programme for integrated rural development. This programme was launched last October in a number of specially selected areas and will operate for a trial period of two years. In the light of the experience we shall gain a decision will then be made as to whether the programme should be extended.

Special co-ordinators have been appointed in all but one of the pilot areas. Recruitment is under way to fill the outstanding post and a co-ordinator will be appointed to the remaining area — south Kerry — as soon as possible after Christmas. The task of these co-ordinators is to assist the local communities to draw up their own set of priorities and to facilitate them in bringing their plans to reality.

I must emphasise that the programme does not establish any new grant-giving agency. The objective is to encourage the community to make more effective use of the aids already available and the co-ordinators have been specially trained in this work.

The Government's approach to integrated rural development is fully in line with emerging EC policy and our thinking is remarkably similar to what the Commission themselves had to say in the paper on "The Future of Rural Society" which they published recently. Indeed, our initiative has attracted a lot of interest in Brussels and the Commission have indicated their willingness to make a contribution towards the cost of the programme. They will, of course, also learn from the experience we will gain in operating the pilot phase of the programme. And we ourselves will be in a favourable position to avail of the additional amounts soon to come on stream as a result of the new arrangements for the future operation of the EC's Structural Funds.

Under subhead E. I am providing £142,000 for residual payments under the consumer subsidy schemes for liquid milk and butter, which were terminated on 1 January 1987.

A sum of £79,000 is being provided under subhead G. for the winding up expenses of Bord na gCapall. This winding up operation is continuing and the amount sought is required to pay the board's proven creditors without further delay.

The Supplementary Estimate also takes account of additional receipts of £5.1 million under subhead M. for appropriations-in-aid. This is a net sum which also takes into account deficiencies in receipts under some headings. The main excesses arise in receipts from the EC in respect of intervention stocks losses and additional receipts under the exchange rate guarantee scheme. They also include offsetting additional receipts of £3 million already referred to in respect of the UK variable premium scheme, and additional EC receipts under the western drainage scheme of £917,000.

The main deficiencies arise in respect of receipts from the EC in respect of market intervention and disadvantaged area schemes. The drop in market intervention receipts is due primarily to lower stock levels than were originally anticipated. The reduction in receipts under the disadvantaged areas schemes is directly related to the level of 1987 payments under these schemes which reflected a drop in cattle numbers.

I can confidently commend this Supplementary Estimate to the House.

I welcome the Minister here this afternoon. I appreciate he has had three very exhausting days in Brussels and it was probably a special effort on his part that got him home in time for this Supplementary Estimate. If he needs any strengthening of his resolve in relation to standing firm on the beef regime proposals, the New Zealand butter issue and so on, if I can help him in any way I will be delighted to do so. He has our support from this side of the House in standing firm and I hope he will come home with what the industry needs in those areas.

In regard to the Supplementary Estimate before us, particularly one of the more controversial aspects of it, subhead B. 4, the extra £8 million for Teagasc, it may seem strange when I say that £8 million is totally inadequate. The Minister will be expecting us to tell him it is totally inadequate, but has there ever been a case of a Government getting their figures so wrong as in the case of establishing Teagasc? ACOT and AFT faced into 1988 with a 40 per cent cut in their budget. A sum of £23 million odd was offered to them and subsequently to Teagasc when they were amalgamated. Now I understand that in a DPS Supplementary Estimate yesterday or the day before £3 million, the cost of the voluntary early retirement scheme, has been provided plus this £8 million. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong. Therefore, effectively something over £11 million in Supplementary Estimates is going to Teagasc this week, £11 million on top of a budget of a mere £23 million. Nearly a 50 per cent increase was necessary in the Supplementary Estimate for such a major organisations.

How could the Minister have got it so wrong at the beginning of the year? There were very few other instances when so much money was involved in running an institution, an organisation, when a Minister had — perhaps "audacity" is the wrong word — the neck to come back and say, "I was out by 50 per cent; I want another £11 million on top of £23 million". Apart from how appallingly wrong the Minister and his Government have got the whole Teagasc scene, the Minister is still away below what he should be giving them. Even with this £11 million Teagasc will be moving into next year with a deficit of £4 million from this year on top of a pay bill shortfall alone of £10 million plus another £1.25 million in administration shortfall. They will start work on 1 January over £15 million short.

A prominent economist stated earlier this year that there is inadequate recognition of the contribution the agriculture and food industry is making to our national economy. Obviously, there is inadequate recognition by this Government and this Minister as the figures before us today testify. Do I have to remind the Minister that the agriculture and food industry represents 27.6 per cent of total exports?

Indeed, the Deputy does not.

I am glad I do not. How could he have forgotten it when he was striking the Estimate for 1988? How can he forget it when he is talking to Teagasc, understanding — I assume — the importance of that body to our agriculture and food industry? Eighty-seven per cent of the raw material for the agriculture and food industry is home sourced. For every £100 of exports generated by the manufacturing industry £54 is paid for in raw material imports. Another £17 goes on profit repatriation, leaving a mere £29 out of every £100 worth of exports within the Irish economy for the manufacturing area. Let the Minister contrast that, if he will, with every £100 of agricultural exports where imports account for a mere £18 with virtually no profit repatriation, leaving over £80 to our economy for every £100 worth of Irish exports. In other words, where the import content and profit repatriation of industrial exports are taken into account the net export value of agriculture is equivalent to all our industrial exports.

In the 20 years 1960-80 we doubled agricultural output, quadrupled our use of fertilisers, drained a third of our farmland and modernised most of our farmyards — great achievements by any standards. Now we are faced with market saturation problems, production controls, the elimination of surpluses, seta-side, extensification and, I am glad to say, an environmental awareness that imposes strict disciplines on all of us.

The farming community continue to need advice, education and soundly based research more than ever. They need help in the use of modern technology, increasing efficiency and competitiveness and the improvement of margins. They need direction in relation to market led development to stay ahead of our competitors.

Teagasc will have to continue to provide the answers for farmers and for a dynamic processing industry, backed by research with efficient monitoring service to ensure high quality exports. The success of this enormous industry, most important in this country, is endangered and threatened by a Government who have failed to recognise the contribution our agriculture and food industry has made and can continue to make to our national economy. Let the Minister not quote to me these interim figures we get from the Central Review Committee and the list of approved jobs. I want real jobs, not lists of approved jobs, not lists of FEOGA and IDA grant-aided processing plants that are not yet on stream and that have a questionable source of product even when and if they come on stream. I do not want to be told about the creation of new jobs which result in poaching other jobs, matched by redundancies in other plants. A net increase in jobs, not an approved figure of jobs is what we are interested in.

Let us look at the facts in relation to ACOT-AFT, now Teagasc. Let us count them in pounds, shillings and pence which, if we are honest, we will admit is the way every farmer sees them. Johnstown Castle's research on alternative sources of nitrogen has saved Irish farmers over £15 million per annum. Johnstown's research on sulphur has indentified a million hectares of grassland which can increase production by 15 per cent or £75 million per annum for the expenditure of a mere £5 million on fertilisers.

What about the others?

I am coming to the other centres. The political skinhead of Fianna Fail has arrived. Deputy Davern is welcome. It seems to be his role to come in and heckle. He adds colour to the place.

I saw the Deputy speaking——

I thank the Deputy and take that as a compliment. The highly efficient, low cost production systems developed at Moorepark have been worth millions of pounds to dairy farmers. Research breakthroughs in silage preservation at Grange have saved farmers over £7 million per annum and have saved this country £12 million in imports. AFT's research on nutrition and feed formulation has increased pig production efficiency by 15 per cent — and they have needed it — a saving of £15 million per annum on feed costs. Creagh, in County Mayo, continues to provide a vital service to the agricultural needs of our marginal land areas especially in relation to hill sheep, mixed stock systems, drainage, etc. The Minister should not smile, it is extremely serious and he will be presented with a decision in the next day or two. I think he will find them waiting on his desk over in Kildare Street when he gets a chance to look at them.

Oak Park was responsible for Cara, the new seed potato, saving our historical seed potato industry from extinction. AFT's role in the £17 million mushroom industry has gone virtually unnoticed, let us be honest. They were behind all the research and development there.

Commentators have stated that the biggest gain for Ireland in the Single Market in 1993 will be the opportunity to develop our food industry. None of us disagrees with that. It follows that we should have an increase in jobs and wealth, using indigenously sourced raw materials. Nobody can argue but that Teagasc have the most important role in this development. The next few years are vital.

What, then, are the preoccupations of this body, of eminent, skilled and experienced men and women working in Teagasc? What are their occupations or preoccupations as we talk this afternoon? I will tell the House. They should be developing the green cert for our young farmers, and I accept fully what the Minister has said in relation to the latest ESRI report. The facts in that report are based on figures that are six to eight years out of date and I support fully the Minister's correction in the light of the misconception that might arise from that report.

The green cert has to be developed even further for our young farmers. We need new research programmes. Is developing the analytical services for our food companies the preoccupation of these men and women in Teagasc at the moment and for the last few months? No, it is not. I will tell you what the major concern of these highly experienced and skilled people is; will even more of them now go under the voluntary early retirement scheme? Do they wait until they are pushed out or shoved around the country, billetted to various research stations because of physical rationalisation of the centres or do they just wait until they become further demoralised? The one effect of the Minister's initial Estimate for this year was to create such demoralisation that he probably increased the uptake in VER. If that is what the Minister intended to do he has been successful, but he should have been honest, because compulsory redundancy, even if got at in that way, is not part of the Programme for Recovery. It is not part of the social partners' agreement.

Teagasc is serving an industry that directly employs 200,000 people and servicing a gross output of more than £3 billion with enormous potential for growth. They look to 1989 with an estimate of only £27.5 million. The revised estimate for this year is £31 million but Teagasc will start next year with less than the revised estimate for this year. When the Book of Estimates for next year was published I laughed at it — it is factually incorrect because of today's Supplementary Estimate — because I got the impression that there will be an increase next year of 19 per cent. I hope that figure will be corrected by the Minister. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that no deficit is carried over to next year and, secondly, to bring the 1989 estimate for Teagasc in line with the revised 1988 estimate which, effectively, has been increased by 50 per cent.

Dr. Pierce Ryan has stated that agricultural research and development must provide farmers, food processors and policy makers — that means the Minister and, hopefully, some of the rest of us at a later stage — with the knowledge needed to adjust the national and international economic forces in the future. I should like to plead with the Minister to allow Teagasc to do that for all our sakes.

I should like to raise a number of other interesting points in relation to this Supplementary Estimate. I can be forgiven if I mention a point I raised on the Order of Business this morning. I sought permission to raise on the Adjournment the shortfall in funding for the trip of our showjumpers to the Olympics in Seoul despite unequivocal promises by the Minister at a press conference on the Thursday of the Millstreet show. At that conference the Minister promised to underwrite the shortfall. The Government had intervened and insisted that a team be sent at a time when the equestrian authorities had decided otherwise. I have tabled parlimentary questions in regard to this matter; I have contacted the Minister's office on three occasions, raised the matter on the Order of Business this morning and, afterwards, spoke personally to the Taoiseach about it.

I am delighted with the Minister's announcement today on the revised Supplementary Estimate, which is different from that issued in the last few days, increasing the grant from £40,000 to £55,000 for the EFI. I should like to thank the Minister for that and to ask him to convey my thanks to the Taoiseach for his interest in this matter. The shortfall would have caused major problems for the EFI, a body to which many equestrian organisations are affiliated. If the extra money had not been paid the Cospoir grant to that organisation next year would have had to be used to pay bank overdrafts. Thanks to the interest of the Taoiseach and the Minister that organisation will be solvent next year and the many groups that cater for children and old people will be able to continue in operation.

If I may be slightly mischievous I should like to make one point about this matter. If one adds up the additional sum required, £17,736,000, and one adds up the figure under savings on subheads one gets a figure of £17,735,000 leaving a difference of £1,000. However, unless my sums are wrong, the addition is incorrect. I should like to know if getting the sums wrong invalidates a Supplementary Estimate. The figures do not tally. I can see why it has happened: it was because there was a change in the figure for the EFI between the announcement of the Order of Business and the commencement of the debate on this Estimate. I hope we will not be told that the Supplementary Estimate has been invalidated because the figures are incorrect.

The Deputy has one minute to conclude.

The Chair was very gracious with the Minister and I did not object. I trust that that graciousness will extend to me.

Acting Chairman

I should like to remind the Deputy that she interrupted the Minister.

The Minister is welcome to interrupt me if he wishes. I appeal for a couple of minutes to conclude. Under subhead H. 3 — Grant-in-Aid to the Racing Board — £500,000, I should like to ask the Minister for an assurance that this new subhead will be included in the Book of Estimates next year. In my view the hype of the Tourism Task Force has been foisted on the Department of Agriculture and Food and they will have to pay what we thought would be coming out of the £1 million the Tourism Task Force received. I support this allocation and I appeal to the Minister to deliver a similar amount next year because many of our racecourses are below standard. The facilities at some of them are appalling. Horse racing is a tremendous tourist attraction.

Acting Chairman

I should like to remind the Deputy that the House made an order this morning allocating 15 minutes to each speaker.

The Minister spoke for more than 20 minutes and I did not interrupt him for more than 30 seconds.

I did not have more than 20 minutes.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Doyle is incorrect.

All I am asking for is one minute to conclude.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is depriving other speakers of some time.

Under subhead C. 2. there are savings of £1,850,000 under the TB eradication scheme but this sum of money should go to increase the cost of compensation for reactors, particularly in the dairy and weanling sector. There are savings under subhead D. 4., Bord Glas, of £160,000 but the total Estimate for Bord Glas this year was £168,000. It appears that they have spent £8,000 producing glossy literature and holding press conferences. The Minister should tell us the truth in regard to this. Under subhead L. 3., aid to less favoured areas, there is a saving of £1,600,000. There is confusion as to what the Minister will or will not do in regard to an extension or reclassification of those areas. The Minister should come clean on that issue. Nothing is being done and there is no specific application to extend or reclassify any area before the authorities in Brussels, despite all the waffle. The Minister should give us the facts.

Acting Chairman

I am calling the next speaker.

As Ireland is a peripheral region it is our last chance to get matters right and draw down as much as possible from the doubling of the Structural Funds.

Acting Chairman

I understand that Deputy Gibbons intends to share his time with Deputy McCoy. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I should like to support the Minister in his efforts in Brussels. It is important that there should be a satisfactory outcome to those negotiations particularly in view of the importance to us of our beef industry. It is important at this stage to reach a satisfactory conclusion in the Mulder case. When the House was debating the Second Stage of the Bill to amalgamate ACOT and AFT I suggested that that amounted to an effort to have an advisory and research service on the cheap. I have been proved right. I have never witnessed such a lack of enthusiasm and shortsighted approach to a fundamental arm of an industry that has a gross output of more than £3 billion. The Government will not come up with 1 per cent of that figure for adequate advice, training and research. There has been a lot of talk about the importance of the efficiency the industry requires and of the need for a properly funded organisation. The requirement of £11 million is obviously not going to be met through the Supplementary Estimate. I should like to ask the Minister how he proposes to deal with the projected deficit next year of between £12 million and £14 million. Will this be an annual event? Will we be asked to pass Supplementary Estimates annually?

I do not wish to get involved in a slagging match but it appears that the Minister is anti-research, anti-science and anti-training. Those who watched the television programme "Yes Minister", will be acquainted with the character Sir Humphreys, the senior civil servant who managed the Minister.

I will give the Deputy a number of names later.

I am the most manageable individual the Deputy ever met.

That is what I am afraid of.

It is time the Minister put the "Sir Humphreys" of the Department of Agriculture in his place because such people cannot be objective about Teagasc. Such people are only interested in saving their own bacon at the expense of the people who are providing the service on the ground.

I should like to ask the Minister if the much publicised audit in the Department of Agriculture will be made public. It is important, not only for the staff of the Department but to assure the public that there is no wastage or overstaffing, that that report is published.

I have certain sympathies with this organisation because what is needed is a definite clear policy on agriculture and solutions to the major problems that are facing the different sectors. Maybe then the new organisation could plan ahead.

The obvious intention to halve the organisation is going to lead to a service for farmers who can afford it and is going to discriminate against the small and low-income farmers who need this service more than anybody else. If we fail to invest in agriculture a large number of potentially viable farm businesses will cease to exist.

The Government have a social obligation to try to maintain viability for smaller farmers. If we do not increase our stock numbers it will be the larger and better off farmers who will end up with the limited supply resulting in small farmers being forced off the land.

Research must have its own independent arm with its own budget to ensure a degree of continuity in the work programme. It is important to ensure the efficient transfer of research results to the overall industry. It is essential that the formal linkages between research and the advisory and training arms of Teagasc are established by way of specialists and extension. Research is not a day to day business, consequently it is essential that the programme is properly planned and is carried out over a sufficient period to render the results meaningful.

The programme must be relevant to the needs of the farming community and the industry in the years ahead, rather than a piecemeal response to day to day problems.

The programme must reflect the general policy directions of the body over a given period. There is a lot of talk about the new body being divided into regions. I would suggest that to avoid duplication, research should not be regionalised. That does not apply to advice and training.

Another area where the new body should take a more active role is the area of testing of sugar content and of tare of sugar beet. The annual dissatisfaction in this area comes up at this time every year and while I accept that the BGA represent the farmers' interests in the sugar factories it is a totally unsatisfactory situation.

I am aware of farmers achieving quite different results from independent testing of sugar content and tare and with all due respects to the BGA what goes on in the laboratories of the sugar company can only be correctly monitored by qualified people in this area.

It is not uncommon this year to have tare contents up to 50 per cent. I am aware of an individual case where it went as high as 64 per cent. Because of the dissatisfaction the only way to restore confidence between the sugar company and the farmer is to have Teagasc take over this entire area.

There are numerous good reasons Teagasc should not be under funded but I have not time to go into them now. One topical area is that of pollution control. I know from my own experience in Kilkenny, that the staff in Teagasc are over worked because of farmers' willingness to do everything that is physically and financially possible to correct this problem. The whole area of pollution control is an added responsibility on Teagasc and for that reason we should not be penny pinching.

The implications of a half baked research advice and training service are very serious. It is vital for agriculture to develop and to be able to compete with the biggest and the best in Europe.

There is only one other point I want to make and Deputy McCoy will deal with some other areas. In relation to animal disease it is important that we should consider the possibility, despite the Minister's views, of importing calves into calf-to-beef cattle units because there is a shortage. Controlled importation of calves would be a means of alleviating the problems. At present we see unreal value for calves. If we are to prepare for the future we should overcome this problem by importing now rather than later. I will conclude because I know Deputy McCoy is anxious to intervene.

On a point of information, what is the order for speakers? Will I get an opportunity to speak as a Member of The Workers' Party?

Acting Chairman

Certainly you will. Deputy McCoy has five minutes and he will be followed by Deputy Stagg.

I congratulate the Department of Agriculture and the Minister for the most responsible handling of a recent difficulty which arose in the poultry industry. Under class A diseases I would ask him to consider, where he has had to make a special allowance this year, those who do not have to compulsorily slaughter but who did in the past two weeks in the interests of the industry and in the interests of the disease free status we all want maintained for Ireland. These people will suffer a very severe financial loss.

In relation to the Common Agricultural Policy it is no wonder it is coming under much pressure when one sees many of the schemes operating to the benefit of fewer farmers each year, when we see the number of people in full time farming and those who are no longer able to get into farming because of quota restrictions being forced to go on the job market. In mainland Europe there is very strong questioning to why the Common Agricultural Policy should be supported when it is supporting fewer people each year. We have allowed go by the board some of the founding principles, such as keeping people on the land and also locating the production of various agricultural outputs in places where the natural resources are most conducive for growing them. In addition, we are now in the ludicrous situation of a set-aside in wheat in this country. The EC is the largest importer in the world of feeding wheat but we in Ireland find we must ask our farmers not to grow wheat and in return we are to compensate them at the rate of £75 an acre, which is totally uneconomic. On the other hand we are trying to develop a pig industry which is an alternative industry and we will require wheat to feed the pigs. In other words, we will end up sending out our hard earned currencies to the world market to buy infeeds while we pay our own farmers £75 an acre to do nothing. This is a counter productive measure and it will be detrimental for rural Ireland.

In relation to food, which has to be the area of a way forward to compensate for the loss of employment inside the farm gate, there is no doubt that our environment must be correct because we suffer from distance from the market and insularity which does not help marketing in many respects. We are being asked on all fronts to dismantle the support and the case we have made over the years for keeping Ireland a disease free country. This has enabled us to keep certain processed meats from the Irish market. All these things are now coming under threat. It will be very difficult for the Minister to play the game he was able to play heretofore. We must create an environment for attracting international research and development to this country.

In that regard we must get our patents area in order. We signed the patents agreement in 1973 but as yet we have not ratified it. New products need to be patented and a lot of money is spent on research. We need to put this matter into perspective and we must stand by those who have established plants and are complying with proper controls. Recently it was brought to my notice that 50 per cent of the confectionery made in this country is manufactured in plants which do not comply with proper controls. This has caused problems for those who have spent money on research and who are complying with proper controls. There are also problems in regard to the nonpayment of VAT on finished goods. We must not allow the cowboy operators to lower standards and put our industry under a cloud.

Being Labour Party spokesman on agriculture I am conscious of the myth or public perception that the Labour Party seem to be anti-agriculture and anti-farmer. I want to positively dispel that myth and remind Deputies that a portrait of Michael Davitt hangs in the foyer of this House. He was champion of the small family farmer and was recognised as a socialist.

At the core of the Supplementary Estimate is the amount of money to be allocated to Teagasc, £8 million. When the Bill establishing Teagasc was going through this House we sought to have explained how this agency was going to be funded. This is now being done, in hindsight, to an inadequate degree. I believe that training, advice and education are of importance in any industry, particularly agriculture. The money being provided in this Supplementary Estimate, £8 million, is not going to allow adequate training and education to be provided and certainly an adequate amount of funding is not being made available to undertake the necessary research and development.

Because of earlier decisions and a decision to request only the amount stated in the Supplementary Estimate advice can no longer be made available to those farmers who are most in need of such advice. Staff are not available to provide such advice and when they are in a position to do so they charge a fee for their services. The new thinking seems to be that there are no free dinners any more and everybody must pay for what they receive. There is a very large number of uneconomic farm holdings, in fact the largest producers, and it would be madness to say that such farmers would have to pay for any advice provided. I am aware that Teagasc have adopted a system whereby such farmers would be able to get such advice free of charge but the reality is that the officers of Teagasc are under pressure to bring in money to fund their activities. As a result of this many people have been put on the long finger and we now have a two-tiered system as a result of the Minister's earlier decision.

Research and development and new technology are of primary importance and I am concerned at the lack of any clear policy directive being given to the national food centre from the Minister's Department. They appear to be the masters of their own devices on a day-to-day basis without any clear policy directive being given to them. This matter should be attended to by the Minister as quickly as possible as I believe that all areas of agricultural activity should be combined with those areas.

In a recent statement the Minister referred to an increase in income of 15 per cent over last year for farmers but what the Minister did not say is that this was a 15 per cent increase on a previous low figure and that it did not apply across the board. This increase in income was achieved in areas where money was being spent.

I accept the point that this is an average figure. There are those who would have had a much larger percentage increase and others with a lot less.

I hope the Common Agricultural Policy is going to be examined critically with a view to using moneys presently used for the storage of large mountains of food, which costs the taxpayer around £8 million per day to store, and because of the high levels of tax those same taxpayers cannot afford to buy that food——

That is coming down also.

That is probably the biggest scandal to take place in Europe, if not the world, since the last world war. This massive amount of food is being stored at a colossal cost. At the same time——

I failed to mention that our contribution will be reduced to 50 per cent of the cost next year. We are reducing the percentage we have to pay dramatically.

That is good. I hope the money used in the price support structure to give big bonuses to large farmers will be used instead to give direct inside the gate subsidies to small and family farms. I hope that system would be changed along those lines.

I understand that the debate has to conclude at 2.30 p.m. and I have promised my socialist colleague, Deputy Kemmy, with the permission of the House, a few minutes of my time in which to make a contribution. Does the debate conclude at 2.30 p.m.?

I thought that the debate resumes after Question Time.

The debate will resume after Question Time when there will be five minutes left of the time allotted to the Deputy.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will allow my colleague, Deputy Kemmy——

The Deputy's illustrious colleague.

Indeed. I would like to allow my illustrious socialist colleague take those five minutes remaining once the debate resumes.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The picture which the Minister painted is not so rosy. There is an alarming drift from rural areas, with small farmers being driven off the land. There is devastation in rural areas and the working class in rural areas are emigrating. The Minister is presiding over this colossal scale of devastation, yet he comes into the House and paints a rosy picture and claims that there has been a 15 per cent increase in the incomes of farmers.

I suggest that the Minister take a look at land structures and establish an agency along the lines of the old Land Commission which would be given teeth to tackle land structure problems to look also at the possibility of introducing a land tax, and to give the moneys raised to a land agency established to tackle land structure problems. I will conclude on that point and thank the House for allowing me to divide my time with Deputy Kemmy.

I now call on Deputy Kemmy. He has one minute but if he so desires he may resume the debate after Question Time.

This is a very important debate and one worthy of the attention of the entire House. Unfortunately all too often in the past debates on agriculture have been confined largely to Deputies who give their full backing to the constant demands and pleas of farmers for handouts, price supports, subsidies and grants of all sorts. This sort of all-embracing fellow feeling and their critical support of this country for the Common Agricultural Policy have done nothing whatsoever to tackle the real problems of agriculture in this country and in the Community as a whole.

Debate adjourned.
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