asked the Minister for Defence the number of persons on the Interdepartmental Committee on pay and conditions in the Defence Forces; and the names of the persons.
4.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Defence Forces Review Group.
3.
asked the Minister for Defence whether the report of the review group on Defence Forces pay will be published; and if not, the reason.
15.
asked the Minister for Defence if it is intended to publish the report of the Special Interdepartmental Committee on Defence Forces pay.
19.
asked the Minister for Defence if he will publish (a) the Army submission to the review body on pay in the Defence Forces and (b) the review body report in full.
120.
asked the Minister for Defence when he intends to appoint two members of the Permanent Defence Force to the interdepartmental committee which was established in June, 1988; when the committee met last; and if another meeting will be held shortly.
Limerick West): I propose to take Questions Nos. 3, 4, 15, 19 and 120 together.
On a point of order, would it be in order to ask the Minister to confine his response to Questions Nos. 3 and 4 to allow other Deputies an opportunity in ordinary time to ask questions on this issue?
I have no control over such matters. It is a matter of choice for Ministers to take together questions that are related.
Will the Minister take supplementaries?
No, not at this stage.
The Minister is lumping in Question No. 19 with these Questions but it refers to a matter which is not referred to in the questions taken, that is the Army submission to the review body. If you, a Cheann Comhairle, allow the Minister to take Question No. 19 with Questions Nos. 3 and 4 you are precluding me from asking any supplementary questions on whatever answer he gives.
That, Deputy, is the normal procedure, it is not unusual. The Minister to reply.
(Limerick West): The new Committee on Defence Forces' Pay and Conditions recently announced by the Government will be comprised of the interdepartmental committee set up in June 1988 — chairman, Deputy Vincent Brady, Minister of State at the Departments of the Taoiseach and Defence; and a representative each from the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance, Defence and Labour with the addition of two retired members of the Defence Forces. The last meeting of the interdepartmental committee was in mid-December 1988. Arrangements are at present being made for the appointment of the two additional members.
As regards the report of the Interdepartmental Committee on Defence Forces Pay, Allowances and Conditions the position is that it is not the practice to publish reports of committees such as this. However, details of the recommendations in the report of the interdepartmental committee, together with particulars of the revised rates of pay and allowances approved by the Government following consideration of the report, were set out in my reply to Questions Nos. 250 and 251 on 25 January 1989.
As I stated on that occasion, the Government accepted all the recommendations in the committee's report with one small amendment in regard to the phased payment of military service allowance. Accordingly, non-commissioned ranks as a whole are getting an overall increase of 19 per cent, made up of an increase of 12 ½ per cent in basic pay and significant improvements in a range of allowances. This is significantly greater than what they would have got under traditional pay relationships. In addition, all the general pay increases provided for in the Programme for National Recovery and the Public Service Pay Agreement are being paid. The average total remuneration of non-commissioned personnel increased by about 9 per cent on 1 January last. By 1 July next the cumulative increase will be about 15 per cent rising to more that 21 per cent on full implementation of the pay awards.
Officers who have not benefited from recent awards are getting an increase ranging from 10 per cent to 16 per cent when account is taken of the improvements in basic pay and in military service allowance. These officers are also benefiting from the increases in security allowances and from the general increases to which I have just referred.
It is not possible to pay the increases in basic pay in one phase without breaching the Public Service Pay Agreement and undermining the Programme for National Recovery. These increases will be paid on the same phased basis as for other public service groups, that is, 40 per cent of the increases in basic pay with effect from 1 July 1989, subject to the terms of the Public Service Pay Agreement. The first phase of military service allowance was paid on 1 January 1989 and the balance will be paid on 1 July next. All other allowances — mostly for security duties — were increased as from 1 January last.
When will the second phase be paid out? What about it?
Does the Minister genuinely believe that the officers and men will have confidence in this new interdepartmental committee to look after their pay and conditions in the future? I want that question answered.
(Limerick West): Yes. For the first time the Defence Forces have a committee working on a continuous basis. The committee were set up in June of last year by this Government. I have already outlined the details regarding the committee, which will look into the pay and conditions of the Defence Forces on a continuous basis. In addition, the Government decided to place on that committee two members who are retired personnel from the Permanent Defence Forces.
This certainly smacks of the fox outside the chicken house, when one considers that up to now they had no confidence whatsoever in that body. The Minister is wasting the time of the committee and of the officers and men.
One very important question that I want to put regarding the committee is, what was their proposal with regard to the second instalment of the actual pay award, not the allowances? When do they propose that that should be paid? I want to know when this award will be paid, or if it is mixed up in the special pay claims that the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Finance, announced here on Budget Day. All that was taken to be in the melting pot and nobody could be sure of anything after that. Would the Minister answer, yes or no?
(Limerick West): This indicates very clearly and positively the complete ignorance of Deputy Connaughton with regard to military service.
Myself and the Army. Let the Minister answer my question correctly.
(Limerick West): I want to say that——
That is an outrageous statement from the Minister.
(Limerick West):——military personnel have accepted in totality the setting up of this special review committee.
Ráméis.
Nonsense.
The Minister, without interruption. Let us hear the Minister's reply.
Would the Minister please answer my question?
What choice would the military personnel have?
(Limerick West): If Deputy Connaughton had been listening, he would have heard that the second phase of the pay agreement will be——
When?
(Limerick West): The second phase will be part of the recommendations for the——
The special pay claims.
(Limerick West):——for the special pay claims, yes.
This is the first time that any Minister has answered that question clearly in the House and the worst fears of the Defence Forces have been realised today.
A shocking admission.
That is a shocking admission. What it will basically mean is that £150 million——
Ceist, Teachta Connaughton. A question, please.
This is directly related to the Minister's reply. There will be £150 million for those special pay claims. I can take it that by the time the more vigorous people involved in the various sectors have put forward their claims there will certainly be nothing left for the Defence Forces because they have nobody to look after them except the Minister.
Deputy, please. You are entering into the realm of debate now.
(Limerick West): As I pointed out in my reply, it is not possible to pay the increases on basic pay in one phase without breaching the Public Service Pay Agreement and undermining the Programme for National Recovery.
Who would object to that?
(Limerick West): These increases would be paid on the same basis as the other public service groups, that is, 40 per cent of the increases on basic pay effective at 1 July 1989, subject to the terms of the Public Service Pay Agreement.
They have no trade union.
(Limerick West): The first phase of the military service allowance was paid on 1 January 1989 and the balance will be paid on 1 July next. All other allowances, mostly for security duties, would increase as from 1 January last year.
A final question from the Deputy. We are having a great deal of repetition.
Would the Minister guarantee to this House that the members of the Defence Forces are sure to get the second instalment of their pay deal? Will the Minister answer yes or no? Also, I take issue with what the Minister said. As far as the actual pay increases are concerned, all the Defence Forces got as a special increase was 2.4 per cent in 1989, or 4.8 per cent of pay on 1 July. The Minister is mixing up the whole question of allowances and pay awards.
Please, Deputy Connaughton.
In my view, the Minister is being dishonest.
It is dishonest, very dishonest.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
Deputies, you are moving along the lines of argument.
(Limerick West): If the Deputy had been listening to me——
That is wrong.
(Limerick West): The Government accepted all the recommendations in the committee's report and I shall repeat——
That is not true.
That is untrue.
(Limerick West): I repeat, all the recommendations of the committee's report——
Publish the report.
(Limerick West):——with one small amendment in regard to the phased payment of the military service allowances have been accepted by the Government. Accordingly, non-commissioned ranks, as a whole, are getting an overall increase of 19 per cent——
How much of that is basic pay?
(Limerick West): ——made up of an increase of 12½ per cent in basic pay.
When did they get it?
(Limerick West): That is significantly greater than they would have got under the traditional arrangements.
That would be nothing, with the way that the Government are going.
(Limerick West): In addition, all general pay increases provided for them in the Programme for National Recovery and the public service pay agreement are being paid. The average total remuneration of non-commissioned personnel increased by about 9 per cent on 1 January last. By 1 July next the cumulative increase will be about 15 per cent, rising to more than 21 per cent on full implementation of the pay awards. Considering the sensitivity of the issues involved, I would expect that Deputy Connaughton, in particular——
That we should not say anything about it?
(Limerick West):——would have been condemning the pay awards, or would have exercised some restraint and, at least, ascertained the facts to ensure that he had full information before he made the allegations that he has been making over the past few weeks.
(Interruptions.)
Will the report be published?
Next question, please.
The Minister has let the Army down.
I have called Question No. 5.
On a point of order, Question No. 4 was not answered.
(Limerick West): I took Questions Nos. 3 and 4 together.
There was no answer to Question No. 4.
Is it to be published?