Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 1989

Vol. 393 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 4, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

It is also proposed that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. It is further proposed that Nos. 1 and 4 shall be taken without debate. It is further proposed that the Supplementary Estimate to which No. 4 refers shall be taken at 8.30 p.m. and notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the following arrangements shall apply: (1) the speech of the Minister for Health moving the Supplementary Estimate, and of any other Member called on, shall not exceed 15 minutes; (2) the Minister shall be called on to conclude the debate not later than 10.20 p.m. and (3) if a division is challenged, it shall be taken forthwith and the Order shall not resume.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 24.

Mr. McCartan

On a point of order. Before you put the questions on today's Order of Business, while we agreed yesterday with regard to the business today on the Trustee Saving Banks Bill, is it not in order to expect that there should be a question on today's Order of Business, this being a separate day's sitting? We cannot be bound by yesterday's order in relation to today and poor progress has been made on that item.

An Ceann Comhairle

The order made yesterday stands.

Mr. McCartan

Is it not in order to expect that there should be a separate question——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow me to proceed with the Order of Business.

Mr. McCartan

The Workers' Party and, I anticipate, other parties in Opposition——

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter to which you refer was decided yesterday by a decision of this House.

Mr. McCartan

In the light of the poor progress and the huge amount of business outstanding on that Bill, how can we voice our opposition to what was agreed by the House yesterday, in view of the developments since then?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair administers the rules and decisions of this House.

Mr. McCartan

May I ask——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is going too far, Deputy McCartan.

Mr. McCartan

In order to assist and not to appear to be unduly obstructive in regard to the issues before the House, I would ask whether the Taoiseach or the Whip is prepared to consider allowing further time for debate on this Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is seeking to rehash yesterday's debate. That is not in order. The Taoiseach has announced the Order of Business. Deputy O'Shea gave me notice that he wishes to raise a matter under Standing Order 30.

Mr. McCartan

Are no questions being put to us this morning on the Order of Business?

Mr. Davern

Obviously the scenes in East Germany have gone to the Deputy's head.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Shea

I served notice that I want to have the House adjourned in accordance with Standing Order 30 to deal with the matter of the bank charges which are being introduced for administering local authority accounts. This will put——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no need to elaborate. I have considered the matter fully and I do not consider it one contemplated by the Standing Order. I cannot therefore grant leave.

Mr. O'Shea

I accept your ruling but at this stage of the year——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, that is the position. There are many other ways of raising the matter in this House.

Mr. O'Shea

I would ask permission to raise this very important matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy. Is the proposal for a late sitting today agreed?

Mr. McCartan

In view of the fact that so little progress has been made on the Trustee Savings Banks Bill, it is our proposal that the House should sit later and that the Committee and Report Stage debates should be extended to a later hour so that we can adequately debate these matters. For that reason we oppose the Adjournment of the House at 10.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

The only question I can put is that the House sit later than normal. Is that what the Deputy is objecting to?

Mr. McCartan

Yes, on the basis that we seek to sit to a later hour.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have an alternative time, by way of suitable amendment?

Mr. MacCartan

At least until midnight. I would ask you to accept that as an amendment to the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question: "That the Taoiseach's proposal for a late sitting today be agreed."

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 19.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies McCartan and Gilmore.

Question declared carried.

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Michael.Brady, Gerard.Brady, Vincent.Brennan, Mattie.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Calleary, Seán.Callely, Ivor.Clohessy, Peadar.Collins, Gerard.Connolly, Ger. Hyland, Liam.Jacob, Joe.Kelly, Laurence.Kenneally, Brendan.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Leonard, Jimmy.Leyden, Terry.Lyons, Denis.Martin, Micheál.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, Jim.McEllistrim, Tom.Molloy, Robert.Morley, P.J.Nolan, M.J.Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West).O'Connell, John.

Coughlan, Mary Theresa.Cowen, Brian.Cullimore, Séamus.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.de Valera, Síle.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.Flood, Chris.Gallagher, Pat the Cope.Haughey, Charles J.Hillery, Brian.Hilliard, Colm. O'Dea, Willie.O'Donoghue, John.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Leary, John.O'Malley, Desmond J.O'Rourke, Mary.O'Toole, Martin Joe.Quill, Máirín.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Smith, Michael.Stafford, John.Treacy, Noel.Tunney, Jim.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wilson, John P.Woods, Michael.

Níl
Byrne, Eric.Ferris, Michael.Gilmore, Eamon.Gregory, Tony.Howlin, Brendan.Kavanagh, Liam.McCartan, Pat.Mac Giolla, Tomás.Moynihan, Michael.	O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Gerry.O'Sullivan, Toddy.Pattison, Séamus.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Seán.Sherlock, Joe.Spring, Dick.Taylor, Mervyn.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that Items Nos. 1 and 4 be taken without debate agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Dukes

Can the Taoiseach tell us today what stage his consideration has reached in relation to the proposal to set up a foreign affairs committee, a committee on health, education and welfare, a committee on public expenditure and another on non-commercial State bodies? May I remind the Taoiseach that he has had the matter of a foreign affairs committee under consideration since April 1987. It is about time he came to a conclusion on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

It seems to me that these are matters which should be dealt with in another way.

Mr. Dukes

They are matters with which the Taoiseach does not appear to want to deal in any other way, so I am inviting him to say in the House——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not Question Time.

Mr. Dukes

A Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach has, with your agreement, answered questions like that in the House before. It is in the House here that we heard from him that these matters are under consideration. Therefore I would ask, Sir, that you follow your own precedent——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has certain prerogatives in this House.

Mr. Dukes

The Taoiseach has certain prerogatives but none relates specifically to this House. He is a Member of this House like anybody else and you, Sir, have allowed him before to react to such questions. Has he any wisdom to offer us this morning on these pearls he has been gestating for two and a half years?

An Ceann Comhairle

If my recollection is correct, at the request of the Opposition, the Taoiseach did intervene yesterday morning.

Mr. Sherlock

In view of the decision taken by Cork County Council on Monday last, because of promised legislation, that no discussion would take place on the Estimate and as this is legislation promised as far back as 1985 to repeal the 1983 Act in respect of service charges, is it intended to introduce the necessary legislation to repeal the 1983 Act?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this legislation promised?

Deputies

Yes.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Sheehan

Another rosy promise that was dangled before the electorate.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

May I ask the Taoiseach, on the Order of Business——

The Taoiseach

Would the Deputy give his constituency colleague a chance?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe has been called.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

May I ask the Taoiseach, on the Order of Business, whether it is intended to introduce legislation or what measures have been taken to stop people breaking into Garda stations following the break in at the Fitzgibbon Street Garda station yesterday?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy O'Keeffe.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Is the Taoiseach taking this matter seriously or is there any place in the country secure any longer?

Mr. Sheehan

Inishvickillane is the only place that will be secure henceforth.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Quinn

Yesterday I asked the Taoiseach if he was in a position to give the House an indication when the regulations giving effect to the EC Directive on Environmental Impact Assessment would be laid before the House. Is the Taoiseach any better informed today?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has been informed by my office about the position in regard to that on a number of occasions. The position is that these regulations have to be made by 12 December and will be so made.

Mr. Quinn

On a point of order, I do not recall getting any information from the Taoiseach's office in relation to that matter, lest I misled you, Sir, or the House.

The Taoiseach

Communications are very difficult in modern society.

Mr. J. Mitchell

A Cheann Comhairle, you ruled the Leader of the Opposition out on asking the Taoiseach whether he had made up his mind about committees of the House. You drew his attention to the fact that this was not Question Time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Mitchell, I thought the Deputy had some legitimate question to pose. I am calling Deputy Yates.

Mr. J. Mitchell

This is a point of order, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Mitchell, desist.

Mr. J. Mitchell

This is a point of order, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a point of order, Deputy, you are challenging my ruling on this matter.

Mr. J. Mitchell

My question is this——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Mitchell. I facilitated the Deputy in rising to put a pertinent question.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Sir, does that mean that questions to the Taoiseach regarding committees of this House will be allowed at Question Time?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Mitchell, I am not going to get involved in an argument on this matter. I am calling Deputy Yates.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Sir, that was the basis on which you ruled the Leader of the Opposition out in his questions to the Taoiseach about committees of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy, I call on the Deputy now to resume his seat.

Mr. J. Mitchell

I will resume my seat, Sir, but does this mean we have to table questions?

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy please resume his seat?

Mr. J. Mitchell

I will resume my seat but we will table questions to ascertain whether you will be consistent in your rulings.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is reflecting on the Chair.

Mr. Yates

May I ask the Taoiseach again when it is proposed to take the Clinical Trials (Amendment) Bill? He promised to communicate with me a fortnight ago and I have no communication on this matter. Will the Taoiseach say whether this Bill, promised by the Minister for Health, will be taken this session because all hospital research has ceased on account of the defects in the present Act?

The Taoiseach

The intention is that it should go to the Seanad first.

Mr. Yates

Will it be taken during this session?

The Taoiseach

Hopefully.

Mr. Taylor

May I ask the Taoiseach the present position regarding the regulations to be made by the Minister for Justice under the Judicial Separations Act which has been in force for over a month but which cannot operate until those regulations are brought in? What is the position in that regard?

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps that is worthy of a question, Deputy.

Mr. Taylor

It deals with an Act of the House which was passed and has been in full operation since the middle of last month but which cannot operate in the absence of the regulations. It is not like the previous case.

The Taoiseach

I will communicate with the Deputy today.

Mr. Deenihan

May I ask the Taoiseach if it is the Government's intention to introduce amending legislation to repeal the Farm Tax Act, 1985, in view of the reserved judgement by Mr. Justice Barron in the High Court yesterday when he stated that having decided to abolish the legislation the Government should have passed an amending Act and having failed to do so the whole legislation was tainted with illegality? May I ask the Taoiseach if he has any plans to introduce this legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should put down a question on the matter.

The Taoiseach

It is a Dáil question.

Mr. Gilmore

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the problems faced by over 10,000 people on social employment schemes who are denied the Christmas bonus, free meat scheme, free fuel scheme and so on.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

Miss Flaherty

Yesterday the Taoiseach informed me that the Government were considering a Bill regulating the occupational pensions area. I should like to know if they are including provisions for equal treatment in that Bill as required by the EC, or do they intend to introduce a separate Bill covering that area.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does this refer to legislation promised in this House?

Miss Flaherty

Are the Government covering the two directives in one or will there be two separate pieces of legislation?

The Taoiseach

Wait until you see the legislation.

Mr. Ferris

I seek your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to raise on the Adjournment of the House this evening the negative response of the Minister for Social Welfare to the report from the major religious superiors.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mrs. Fennell

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the future structure of the family mediation scheme now that they have completed their three year pilot programme.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Quinn

May I ask the Taoiseach on the Order of Business if it is his intention to make time available next week to give a report to the House on the outcome of the special EC summit which will take place this weekend in Paris?

The Taoiseach

I dealt with that matter yesterday.

Mr. Dukes

The Taoiseach just said we would not have a debate.

The Taoiseach

I said I would probably report to the House after the meeting.

Mr. Quinn

I do not think you said that yesterday, Sir.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach let us know——

An Ceann Comhairle

This should not lead to argument.

Mr. Ryan

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the plight of asthmatics, in particular those in Dublin, in view of the smog and fog problems. They should be given some sort of long-term illness card so that they can overcome their difficulties especially as this Government are not going to deal with this problem of smog during the current year or for the foreseeable future.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy concerning the matter. Deputy Boylan has been offering for some time.

Mr. Boylan

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of Question No. 203 on yesterday's Order Paper which deals with the county roads in Cavan.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

The Taoiseach

We dealt with that yesterday as well.

Mr. Boylan

Not fully.

Mrs. Barnes

At the conclusion of the debate on the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Bill last Friday the Minister of State at the Department of the Marine informed the House that the authority and its membership would be announced by Wednesday of this week. I want to ask the Minister for the Marine or the Taoiseach if we will have that information before the day is past.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter hardly arises now, Deputy Barnes.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

It will be a long day.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla.

Dr. Lee

May I ask your permission——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry Deputy, I have called Deputy Mac Giolla.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. May I ask your permission to raise on the Adjournment the continued shameful treatment of the employees of Irish Shipping and the refusal of three Governments to adequately compensate them for their loyal service to this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Dr. Lee

With your permission I should like to raise a most serious and grave matter. In short, it is a matter of life and death for some people and I need your help with it. Last Wednesday on the Adjournment debate the Minister informed the House that there were paediatric neuro-surgeons with sufficient expertise and experience to carry out neuro-paediatric operations. I am in possession of sworn affidavits——

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy is seeking permission to raise the matter with me I shall certainly seek to facilitate him but he may not make a speech now.

Dr. Lee

I am in possession of legal documents——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy seeking my permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment?

Dr. Lee

I need your help with it. It is a very serious matter——

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it that he is and I will communicate with him.

Mr. R. Bruton

May I raise on the Adjournment the changes in the administration of unemployment assistance as it affects single people living at home with their parents?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning the matter.

Mr. Spring

Given the constructive and informative debate which took place in this House last night on our voting position in the United Nations and what I believe is the overwhelming support of the Deputies on all sides of the House to get the Irish representative at the UN to change our position, may I ask the Taoiseach if the Government will reconsider the position they outlined in the House last night?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Spring, the Chair cannot permit a rehash of last evening's debate on the matter.

Mr. Spring

May I ask the Taoiseach to take some of his own backbenchers into account——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Gerry O'Sullivan.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

May I ask the Taoiseach if he intends to draft amending legislation in relation to the rod licence matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

A question might be appropriate.

Mr. Moynihan

With your permission, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the provision of an employment exchange in Killarney.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): I wish for the fifth time to seek to raise on the Adjournment the provision of accommodation for post-primary students at Hospital in County Limerick.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of the Deputy's interest in the matter and I will communicate with him.

Mr. Sheehan

In view of the depressed state of beef cattle prices at present I should like to ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food if he has any intention of reopening the export of live cattle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding now with the Order of Business proper.

Mr. Sheehan

Perhaps the Taoiseach will give him a helping hand and as much advice——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. McCormack

I wish to ask the Minister for Education the immediate plans she has for the starting of the much needed primary school at Clonbur.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Miss Flaherty

I should like to ask the Minister for Social Welfare if he is yet in a position to indicate when the regulations on the Social Welfare Act will be ready to allow unemployed people to participate more widely in educational opportunities.

Minister for Social Welfare (Dr. Woods)

Shortly.

Miss Flaherty

We have been hearing that for months.