Deputy Noonan gave me notice of his intention to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of the provision of a post-primary school at Hospital, County Limerick. The Deputy has ten minutes to present his case and the Minister five minutes to reply.
Adjournment Debate. - County Limerick Post-Primary School.
(Limerick East): First, I should like to thank you, Sir, for having allowed me raise this matter on the Adjournment. I should also like to thank the Minister for her attendance this evening to listen to and reply to the case I make. I know it is difficult for the Minister, amidst her onerous duties, to attend so late in the House.
There is a very large number of post-primary pupils attending two schools in Hospital, County Limerick. I want to speak about the De La Salle Presentation School. Originally the Presentation nuns had a convent school at Hospital catering for girls in the catchment area. The De La Salle brothers had another school catering for boys. The two schools amalgamated into one corporate unit — if I may use that expression — with one board of management, a principal and vice-principal, and are recognised by the Department of Education as one school. Even though the institutions amalgamated the actual accommodation is separated by half a mile because they are still located on two sites. The classrooms on the two locations are located in 13 different positions. As the House will appreciate, this causes grave hardship to pupils and teachers who must move, in all kinds of weather conditions, from one location to another. Additionally the administration of the school, at so many different locations, in two different collections of pre-fabs, is a nightmare for administration and timetabling. The buildings are in very bad condition. There are three pre-fabs there over 24 years old, three pre-fabs over 21 years old, three pre-fabs over 17 years old, a prefab hall over 17 years old and two prefab halls over three years old.
The Minister is expending a certain amount of money in keeping these in a condition in which classes can be conducted. There is an average of £3,000 per annum being spent on maintenance which appears to me to be so much money down the drain.
In 1973 the schools, which were then separate, catered for 370 pupils and, in the present school year, cater for 609 pupils. There are 37 teachers in the school. I do not think any workforce of this size anywhere in the country has to work in such appalling conditions. Neither do I think any pupils in an institution of this size are subjected to these conditions.
Fund-raising has been engaged in for a long time. A sum of £350,000 has been accumulated which would meet any reasonable local contribution the Minister might request. There is also a site adjacent to the De La Salle property being given free and there are six acres of playing fields attached. The assembly hall at this location is of a reasonable quality. Effectively what is required is a new school on this site using the existing assembly hall.
In 1973 the schools which had been run separately by the Sisters and Brothers were amalgamated, and now there is one joint institution. There are no specialist rooms in the schools. There is no proper art room, woodwork room, mechanical drawing room, geography room, religion room, language laboratory or gymnasium. There is only one science room on each site, which are totally inadequate for 609 pupils. Of course, the toilet and cloakroom facilities are inadequate as well.
I thought some progress had been made in the Department of Education until I put down a question to the Minister on 24 October 1989. I asked her in the first instance for a new school because the people in Hospital talk in terms of a new school rather than an extension. The Minister said she had no plans to construct a new primary school at Hospital, County Limerick. On the basis that I thought I may have asked a wrong question, I then asked her about an extension. While I got a more lengthy answer I am afraid it amounted to the same thing — the Minister has no plans to build an extension there either.
However, in her reply the Minister referred to discussions on an amalgamation and preliminary discussions have taken place on an amalgamation of existing schools. When one talks about existing schools one might be talking of the brothers and the nuns. Their schools were amalgamated in 1973 so I presume what the Minister has in mind is discussions with the authorities in the present amalgamated school, De La Salle Presentation School, and the authorities of the County Limerick VEC who run the vocational school in Hospital. This is news to the authorities of the De La Salle Presentation School and to the parents of Hospital who thought there was no question of arrangements being made which would incorporate the technical school. They were under the impression that with over 600 pupils in the school they had sufficient numbers to justify what they were looking for.
I would like the Minister to clarify the position here tonight. Accommodation is necessary. This is a very large catchment area and there is no real competition in post-primary education, in the sense one would have in a city. It is not as if alternative post-primary schools are going to draw pupils from the catchment area; if anything extra pupils will come to the area. From a political point of view, this area spans not only the constituency of East Limerick but also quite a large area of West Limerick and extends into South Tipperary. Therefore, two counties and a large number of parents are involved.
Parents in the area who did their part in collecting £350,000 — that money has been available for some time and the Minister is aware of this — feel very hurt because they were under the impression that the planning of a new school had gone as far as phase 3 or phase 4.
It has begun.
(Limerick East): This is what was being communicated by people in the Minister's party——
That is another matter.
(Limerick East): Maybe false impressions were given prior to the general election——
You are a gentleman.
(Limerick East):——but I believe the people who gave the parents this information thought they were giving accurate information.
It did not come from me.
(Limerick East): It looks now as if no progress has been made——
A lot of progress has been made.
(Limerick East):——and that they are only at the preliminary stage of discussion.
I want to ask the Minister to do a number of things. First, will she clarify the position here tonight? She should set a deadline for sorting things out and agreeing plans for the post-primary school at De La Salle Presentation School. I would ask her to meet a delegation from the school authorities, the teaching staff and the parents at a very early date so that she can have a full and frank discussion with the people most concerned about this matter. The children of the people who contributed to the post-primary school at Hospital have passed through the primary education cycle and the parents of children who are currently in the school feel their children will have passed through the education cycle before any new school is provided. Schools where planning started at a more recent date seem to have progressed while the project in Hospital seems to have stopped. I should like the Minister to clarify the position, I should like her also to state very clearly if it is because she wants the vocational school to come in as part of the new school that no progress has been made. Is she prepared to go ahead with either an extension or a new school for the De La Salle Presentation School and to allow the vocational school a separate identity?
The Minister for Education, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, to reply.
How much time do I have?
Five minutes.
I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. He has been diligent in its pursuit, having asked to raise it five times. I wanted to be in the House to reply to this debate, and I am glad to be here. I will be very explicit in my reply.
I have planned one school for Hospital. The number of pupils in the Presentation De La Salle school is 610 — naturally the Deputy's figure of 609 is just as good — and there are 221 pupils in the vocational school. Those are present day enrolment figures and obviously — I have the percentages but there is no point going through them — the national drop in births which is already quite evident in primary schools will inevitably come into the post-primary sector. Hospital is an ideal location for one school. I make no secret in saying that there will be one school for Hospital, combining the Presentation De La Salle school and the vocational school. To do anything else in the light of the numbers and the projections would be very wrong. That school will be able to offer a very broad range of academic and technical subjects which is the current mix nowadays for young girls and boys.
Co-education demands the development of the curriculum so that there will be a greater range of options open to young people. Because of the skills they need nowadays, a broad curriculum is needed. We are looking at all areas to see where we can combine the traditional vocational school and the traditional voluntary secondary school. As evident from the numbers in the schools, ideally there should be one development in the area.
I have read the file on Hospital and I accept that the conditions under which the very diligent staff and managers, both past and present, are working are inadequate. I taught in prefabs in post-primary schools for 20 years and they are not satisfactory from the point of view of teachers or pupils. I want the town of Hospital to have one decent, good school. That will be my aim and that is what we have planned.
I have already arranged to meet with a deputation — I do not know the date, but I think it is next week — and naturally the Deputy will be informed when the meeting will be. I will be very glad to meet with them and explain my position exactly. Of course, this is not a new position; it was a policy of the last Government and the Government before that — the previous Coalition — to look critically at all planning particularly in the post-primary sector to see if one school could serve one area.
(Limerick East): They made no decision to amalgamate the schools in Hospital.
I am making a decision, good and smart.
(Limerick East): The previous Government did not.
Deputy Noonan spoke about the prefabs which have been there for 17, 22 years and 24 years. The Deputy was a member of the Coalition Government for four years but he did not push to get rid of the prefabs in the schools in Hospital or make any great strides towards so doing. The Deputy brought that comment on himself. I am quite open on the matter. Hospital deserves a decent school. I will meet all the representative interests. The people will come to a common consensus on the type of school they want. The pupil catchment of the area is most adequately suited for one school.
(Limerick East): What is the projected figure?
I have the background figures and I will give them to the deputation.
(Limerick East): Is it the Minister's intention that the proposed school would be run by the vocational education committee?
This is a matter to be decided on by the Department and the local community. What happens when a decision is taken that the area is suitable for one school is that the Department and the community at large get together — not without trauma in some instances, but sometimes very easily — and decide what they will do.
A meeting took place recently between my Department and the secondary school authorities to explore the possibilities for Hospital. A meeting has been arranged with County Limerick Vocational Education Committee to discuss the development of a single school. The possibility has already been floated with the secondary school authorities and a meeting has been arranged to meet with County Limerick VEC. Arising from the discussions, a decision will be made as to how best to meet the long term needs of the catchment area.
I am very aware from reading the files of the unsatisfactory situation in Hospital particularly in the secondary school. To recap, an exploratory meeting has been held with the voluntary sector second level schools and a meeting has been arranged with the vocational sector. I will be meeting a deputation — I do not know who will be there but obviously all the public representatives will be invited — and the parents and teachers and the matter will be decided from there.
(Limerick East): Is the management structure a matter for discussion?
It is a matter for discussion, particularly when we are rationalising the system.