It is proposed to take No. 4. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: the Dáil shall meet tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m. and any divisions demanded tomorrow shall be postponed until 6.45 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 June 1990.
Order of Business.
Are the arrangements——
Deputy J. Bruton rose.
On the Order of Business?
Yes. The Fine Gael Party will not agree to the special arrangements being sought by the Taoiseach to ram the Broadcasting Bill through this House, for two reasons. The House should first debate the no confidence motion in the Government and the Minister, tabled by Fine Gael, because it is clear — in the case of the Government and the Bill — that collective responsibility has broken down. This Bill is totally flawed. We have not had an opportunity to discuss amendments that have apparently been agreed behind closed doors and it would be wrong to commence debate on a Bill which is not the Bill the Government intend to present because of back-door deals.
It is hardly necessary for me to say that I totally reject everything Deputy Bruton said. There is no question of — to use his phrase — ramming this legislation through. The Second Stage has been ordered in the normal way, there is no question of terminating the Second Stage debate until the Whips agree to do so, so I cannot understand that particular reference. As I said on a number of occasions, the Bill before the House is Government legislation and will be dealt with as Government legislation in the normal way.
We will take every opportunity to enlighten his understanding over the next few days.
A Deputy
The Taoiseach's name could do with a little improvement.
(Interruptions.)
When you descend to personal attack you are losing.
Stick around today. On the Order of Business, I listened carefully to what the Taoiseach said in reply to Deputy Bruton but I am in a state of disbelief. A Bill was published last week and we questioned the Taoiseach very carefully in relation to it. He said it was Government legislation but a series of meetings have taken place since the Bill was published, apparently between the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce — whom I welcome to the House this morning — and briefings were given late last night in relation to substantial changes in the Bill which was introduced in the House last week. This is not proper procedure. We are voting against the Bill today and objecting to this manner of bringing legislation before the House.
It is not the same Bill.
If the part-time Minister for Communications wishes to substantially alter the Bill then, as a matter of courtesy, he should withdraw the Bill before the House and come back in a fortnight's time.
It is clear——
The Taoiseach rose.
Will the Taoiseach kindly reply when Deputy De Rossa has spoken?
I want to reply now.
Deputies
Chair, Chair.
It is, and always has been, the Taoiseach's prerogative to deal with the Order of Business.
We know where we stand.
Apparently there is a new form of parliamentary democracy as members of the Opposition are allowed to raise points but I am not allowed to reply to them.
(Interruptions.)
I think Fine Gael are beginning to go back to some of their fascist origins.
If the Taoiseach continues in that vein we will really do well.
We do not have any skeletons in our cupboard.
I should like to reply, if I may, in good order to the point made by Deputy Spring in explaining why he proposes to oppose the Order of Business. I should like to explain to Deputy Spring that the procedure of bringing forward legislation here and amending it on Committee Stage is perfectly normal.
The Taoiseach and the Government are treating this House with contempt. They announced a Bill here last week, published it and have done secret deals in relation to changing it. They now expect us to debate the Bill in the House today and tomorrow without knowing what is contained in the amendments or having time to consider them. It is time the Taoiseach grew up and treated the House with respect.
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy in possession, without interruption.
I simply wish to say that not only are we opposing the Order of Business, as proposed here, but we are opposing the taking of the Second Stage. In fact, we will be opposing the First Stage of this Bill.
I cannot understand Deputy De Rossa's objection. What is happening here is perfectly normal parliamentary procedure. Legislation has been brought before the House, has been published, the Second Stage is now about to be taken. Every Deputy in the House will have a full opportunity to contribute on that Second Stage and in due course the Committee Stage will be taken. Every Deputy in this House will be entitled to put down the amendments he or she wishes. The procedure being followed is exactly the normal procedure being followed in regard to any legislation. I cannot understand how anybody can suggest that that is treating the House with contempt. There is no question of limiting the Second Stage. Every Member of the House will be fully entitled to contribute to the Second Stage debate. Every Member of the House will be entitled to put down amendments, as will the Government, in the normal way. I cannot understand this fuss at all.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies Dukes, Spring and De Rossa rose.
A Cheann Comhairle, I take it from what the Taoiseach has said——
Deputy Dukes, I am in charge of proceedings in this House.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Mitchell, you may not shout at me like that.
A Cheann Comhairle, I have a simple question——
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Dukes, I merely wish to say that in your absence I allowed the spokespersons for the main Opposition parties to comment in respect of their opposition to the Order of Business. The Taoiseach replied and I was about to put the question. I will allow Deputy Dukes to put his question on the procedure.
I have a very simple question on procedure. I would simply like to ask, if I may take it from what the Taoiseach has just said——
Will the Deputy be here for long?
Yes, and I will be here for a long time after the Deputy has been silenced.
(Interruptions.)
I would simply like to know, Sir, if we may take it from what the Taoiseach has just said that the Government will not put down a guillotine motion for the Second Stage of this Bill? Have we his categoric assurance that that is the case?
The taking of the Second Stage will be dealt with by the Whips in the normal manner.
A Cheann Comhairle I will be very brief——
Deputy Spring, I am putting the question now. I will hear nothing further——
A Cheann Comhairle I will be very brief.
Is it a question, Deputy Spring?
It is a question.
Fine.
A Cheann Comhairle, it is in relation to the procedure in this House and to what the Taoiseach has said. The Taoiseach is putting a good face on a very bad brief, if I may say so. Can I ask the Taoiseach, in the interests of democracy in this House and what is happening to this Bill, whether the Minister for Industry and Commerce would like to comment on what has happened in the past few days? We deserve some comment from the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
Are the proposals for dealing with tomorrow's business agreed?
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá; 73; Níl, 69.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P. J.
- Nolan, M. J.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John. (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McCartan, Pat.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- Sheehan, Patrick J.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.
Question declared carried.
Can we proceed to the item in question?
On the Order of Business, Sir, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the imminent closure of the Ballymun womens' refuge, which will have a serious impact on the need for refuge for battered women on the north side of the city, because of the need for extra funding from the Department of Health.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
Could I ask the Taoiseach if he proposes to give Government time in this House before the summer recess to discuss the implications of the GATT negotiations?
The matter to which the Deputy refers does not arise now.
I would like to hear the Taoiseach's reply.
When I try to answer the Deputy's questions he shouts me down.
As a matter of urgent importance to the people of Wicklow, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the closure of Nixdorf Computer International Limited, with the loss of 380 jobs.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I would like to raise on the Adjournment the effect on our schools and pupils of the failure of the Minister for Education to appoint caretakers.
I will communicate with Deputy Mac Giolla in respect of that matter.
Like Deputy Kavanagh, I would like to raise on the Adjournment the question of the closure of Nixdorf Computer International Limited in Bray.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
Could I ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he will produce legislation to control the price of milk to ensure that the reduction in the price to the producer——
The Deputy should raise that matter in a more formal manner. It does not arise now, Deputy Allen.
Mad cow disease.
It is nice to see the Deputy in the House today. We did not see too many of her party here yesterday.
Could I ask the Taoiseach what action the Government propose to take in relation to the non-issue of licences to the sea fishing industry? There is now a crisis in that only three licences out of over 300 applications have been issued.
Deputy Madeleine Taylor-Quinn knows full well that this matter does not arise now. It is not relevant to the Order of Business.
The Taoiseach is indicating his wish to respond.
My office will facilitate the Deputy if required, but this matter does not arise now, Deputy.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Sorry, I must ask you to resume your seat.
There are 300 fishery people around the country who are disappointed by the Government. Out of a total of 300 applications, the Government have issued only three licences. What does the Taoiseach have to say about that?
Deputy Ruairí Quinn.
The Deputy is abusing my tete-à-tete with her last night.
The Taoiseach should consider having a word with the Minister for the Marine.
I had a chat with the Deputy last night and she is abusing my confidence.
If the Minister would like to answer Deputy Taylor-Quinn I would be quite happy to facilitate him.
I have called you, Deputy. Proceed with your question, and I hope it is relevant.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I would like to ask the Taoiseach, having regard to the disruption in the legislative programme of this Government as a result of the Bill which we are about to discuss, to instruct his Whip to inform the other Whips of the remaining items of legislation the Government propose to take between now and 5 July, so as to facilitate orderly and constructive debate in this House.
That seems to be a matter for the Whips.
That is a very reasonable request and I will certainly instruct the Whip to do that. I would, in turn, ask the Deputy to facilitate the Government in the transaction of the legislation.
Could I seek your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to raise on the Adjournment the need to provide an adequate bus service for students in Dublin, particularly those taking examinations?
I will be in touch with the Deputy.
I would like to raise on the Adjournment the problems experienced by a doctor in my constituency regarding the prescription of drugs for AIDS sufferers.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
I wish to raise on the Adjournment the problems facing the bread industry, particularly the effects on employment as a result of the recent reduction in price.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
It now transpires that section 9 of the Animals Act, 1985 which requires the presence of the county registrar in the event of a person claiming animals, renders the Act inoperable because the county registrar is not available——
Ceist, le do thoil.
Is it proposed to amend the Animals Act, 1985, in view of that position, so that——
The Deputy should put down a question on that matter. It does not arise now.
The Taoiseach might open the gates on that.
Could I seek your permission to raise on the Adjournment the question whereby dairies and co-ops have not passed on to the consumer the 15p reduction in the price of milk?
I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.
There is a rip-off by the dairies and co-ops.
I would like to raise on the Adjournment with the Minister for Finance, or his Minister of State, the advice to demolish the remaining ruins of the largest medieval stone castle in Ireland situated in Ballintubber. This advice was given because it is a danger to the public.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the commitments given by Deputy Mary Harney, Minister of State, to local groups whom she met recently in Ballymun, in respect of their proposals for Santry Woods.
I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.
In the absence of the Minister for the Environment, could I ask the Taoiseach to request that Minister to intervene in the dispute that has arisen in his own constituency so as to ensure that further injuries are not caused in Castlebar as a result of the proposed building——
That matter does not arise now, Deputy Shatter.
Two nuns were injured and taken to hospital——
Deputy Shatter will resume his seat.
The Minister cannot evade his responsibilities.
Deputy Shatter will resume his seat.
He does not know what is happening in his constituency.
I would like to raise on the Adjournment the rapidly deteriorating industrial relations climate in Bus Átha Cliath which is likely to worsen in the next couple of days, leading to a full withdrawal of buses by the weekend, and the implications for passengers.
I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I would like to ask the Taoiseach, in the absence of the Minister for Agriculture and Food, to tell the House when a decision will be made on Ireland's application for an extension of the disadvantaged areas.
Put down a question, Deputy Sheehan.
There are thousands of farmers awaiting this decision.
Deputy John Browne, Carlow-Kilkenny.
It is very unfair——
Please, Deputy Sheehan, allow your colleague to raise a legitimate matter.
The Taoiseach in his capacity as President of the EC should be able to give this information to the House.
I hope the farmers do better than the fishermen.
Deputy Sheehan will resume his seat.
A Cheann Comhairle, could the Taoiseach——
Deputy Sheehan, please resume your seat.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): At one time there was a daily bus service from Hacketstown to Dublin and that was then reduced to a one day service. Bus Éireann have now changed that to a Friday service and this means that people on free travel have to pay their return fare from Dublin.
Is the Deputy seeking to raise this matter on the Adjournment?
(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Minister for Transport has no responsibility in this matter. Could I ask the Minister for Social Welfare on the Adjournment——
I will communicate with Deputy Browne in connection with that matter.
It is now six months since Fine Gael published the Environment Protection Agency Bill. This Government have constantly promised that a Bill will be circulated in the House. Could I ask the Taoiseach when we will see the Government Bill and if there is any possibility of even starting a Second Stage debate on that Bill before the end of the so-called Green Presidency?
Does this question refer to promised legislation in the House?
Multiple promises have been made on a weekly basis.
Order.
The Bill will be published during this session. If we get co-operation from the Opposition in dealing with legislation we will make an attempt to process this matter.
A Bill could have been in place if we had co-operation from the Government.
Item No. 4, Broadcasting Bill, 1990, Second Stage. I am now calling on the Minister for Communications and Justice, Deputy Ray Burke, to move the motion: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".
On a point of order——
On a point of order, I presume the Minister is moving the motion on the Order Paper, "That the Bill be ordered for Second Stage". If so——
He is moving the motion: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".
Could I ask when the Bill was ordered for Second Stage?
The Bill has not been ordered yet.
They are jumping the gun again.
Is the Deputy indicating his opposition now?
Yes.
I am opposing the ordering of Second Stage of this Bill.
Just to be consistent, I am opposing it, too.
A united Opposition and a dishevelled Government.
Question put: "That, in respect of the Broadcasting Bill, 1990, Second Stage be taken now".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 69.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P. J.
- Nolan, M. J.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Ahearn, Therese.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carrey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McCartan, Pat.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.
Question declared carried.