Deputy Seán Ryan gave me notice of his intention to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of compensation due to Swords Community Council from the county VEC and the Department of Education for the period of occupancy for three years. Deputy Ryan has ten minutes at his disposal and the Minister for Education has five minutes to reply.
Adjournment Debate. - Swords (Dublin) Community Council Payment Claim.
I wish to give a couple of minutes to my colleague, Deputy Owen.
Is that satisfactory? It is agreed.
I thank you, Sir, for giving me the opportunity of raising this most controversial and emotional issue in this House. This matter relates to a claim for compensation by Swords Community Council from the County Dublin VEC and the Department of Education who, at the end of the day, have to sanction any such payment. The claim is for £62,375 in respect of the renovation, maintenance, painting, cleaning, caretaking and general upkeep during the occupancy of the old school in North Street, Swords, from 1984 to 1987. I can speak with a certain authority on this matter as I was a member of the VEC from 1974 to 1987.
In 1981 the VEC vacated the site of the old vocational school in North Street and moved to a new school building at St. Finian's community college. The old building, ideally located in the centre of Swords though restricted as a new school site in my opinion, was left unattendd. Cider parties took place on the site, break-ins occurred, the buildings were vandalised and fires were started in the building on at least two occasions. During that period the Department of Education on a number of occasions refused a caretaker for the building.
At that time Swords Community Council were desperately seeking a premises for use as a community centre. They sought and were granted permission to lease the building for this purpose. In my opinion, without their intervention the building would have been levelled in no time. Every residents' association in Swords, together with over 20 organisations, such as sports, drama and dancing clubs, mothers, toddlers, senior citizens, raised finance through sponsorship events, raffles, collections, etc., for the refurbishing of the building. The building was refurbished, a caretaker employed and the centre was a buzz of activity. President Hillery himself on officially opening the community centre in 1985 complimented the people of Swords on the excellent condition of the building.
Following an all-night vigil by parents, the Department of Education eventually realised that a new post-primary school was needed. They had already rejected a proposal for a site at Swords which had been identified by the VEC. The Department directed the VEC to take that building which was in occupancy by the community council. Through the untiring efforts of Swords Community Council they were able to walk straight back into a refurbished building at little or no cost, but what was the cost to the State?
I have here a copy of a letter dated 28 April 1987 signed by David Gordon, the Minister's private secretary and by Marian O'Driscoll. Mr. Gordon states in it that it had already been established that the incorporation of the old vocational buildings into the proposed new school — the school which was refurbished by the community council — would save at least £250,000 of Exchequer funds. Another item to note is that Dublin County Council in 1984 approved a grant of £10,000 to Swords Community Council for the purpose of refurbishing the premises occupied by them which had been extensively vandalised. Notwithstanding the needs of the community centre, Swords Community Council vacated the building in the interest of the education of the children in the catchment area. However, they sought an undertaking from the VEC at a meeting in 1987 that compensation would be paid.
As a member of the VEC, I attended a meeting in the Department offices in Marlboro' Street in 1986 with the officials of the Minister's Department and the agenda for that evening was to discuss the site for the proposed new Fingal community college. I make no apology to any one in this House for saying that in reply to a question by me at that meeting the meeting received an undertaking from the Department officials present that the community council would be compensated for expenditure incurred by them in refurbishing the building. In hindsight it seems they were prepared to give any undertaking until they got vacant possession.
Nearly four years later, in response to the claim, the VEC state they have no legal obligation to pay compensation. This is a scandal. I am utterly appalled at this attitude, given the facts I have outlined. Another problem exists. Swords still requires a community centre. However, the officials of the community council are finding it extremely difficult to reactivate fund raising, given the amount of money collected by the people of Swords in the past.
I appeal to the Minister here this evening to accept, notwithstanding any legal problems, that a moral obligation exists for the payment of this compensation. On behalf of the people of Swords I appeal to the Minister to accept her responsibility in this matter. They are looking to her for justice and fair play. In politics I believe, notwithstanding any problems that may exist, she can find her way to ensure that justice can be seen to be done and the people in Swords can get the compensation they deserve so much and are entitled to, so that they can go ahead and build the community centre that is required in the area.
I thank Deputy Ryan for giving me a couple of minutes of his time. I endorse everything he has said and I make a very strong appeal to the Minister to recognise the moral obligation of her Department to acknowledge what was done by the Swords Community Council. I have not the slightest doubt that the Minister would have been in a desperate position two years ago if she had not been able to take over a well maintained and modified building to turn into a second community college in the Swords region. She would have been hung out to dry by the parents in Swords if she had not been able to provide school premises for the pupils. What did she do? She took back the building which the Swords Community Council, through blood, sweat and tears, had renovated, in which they had installed extra toilets and facilities, where many hundreds of people from the Swords community had enjoyed many leisure hours and many young people were kept off the streets and perhaps, from acts of vandalism, etc; by giving them a community centre where they could enjoy various facilities such as table tennis, card playing, a meeting place for scouts, etc.
As Deputy Ryan stated, Mr. Gordon from the Minister's Department has said there is an acknowledgement in the Department that had the Department had to take over a building that had been lying vacant for many years at the very minimum they would have had to spend £250,000 to renovate that building to make it fit for a school premises. Instead, the Minister was able to take the key, hand it to the principal of the school and say, "There you are, Mr. Principal, you can start your school". She had not to put even a lick of paint on the building. The community are now looking for some compensation for having saved the Minister £250,000, and I believe that was only the thin edge of the wedge. I am sure it would have cost the Minister more. They are looking for £62,375 which, as Deputy Ryan said, includes the £10,000 grant from Dublin County Council which is now in the Minister's pocket. The work it was used for goes now to the benefit of the Minister's Department. The Minister at least owes Dublin County Council the £10,000 grant which the council gave to the community council to spend. A sum of £31,175 was spent on the building and than a further sum of £31,200 was spent on cleaning, caretaking and upkeep. That building was falling into disrepair and would not be there if the community council had not restored the building and made it available. I appeal to the Minister to soften her heart to the pleas of the community council.
The Minister will be responsible if the Swords Community Council cannot start another fund raising campaign to get an alternative community centre for this growing town where 50 per cent of the people are young. The Minister knows that, having regard to the school figures. There are five primary schools there and four second level schools, a convent, a Christian Brothers school and two community colleges. The community council cannot raise anything because the local businesses when asked for money for a community centre say that they already gave money for a community centre. The community council are fighting a losing battle. The Minister should find it in her heart to comply with her moral obligation, to see the justice of this case and give this community council, if not the full sum of £62,375 at least a good portion of the money, and return the £10,000 grant to Dublin County Council so that they can give it to the community council to help them with their next fund raising project. I know the Minister will see the justice of what we are saying and recognise that but for the diligence of this community council and the people of Swords she would have had a far greater problem in 1987 than she had when she needed a new school premises.
Deputy Nora Owen is priceless, and what I could say about Deputy Seán Ryan is something else, but I will say it to him privately. In this file there are interesting letters from 1984, 1985 and 1986 when Deputy Owen and her party were in Coalition and in Government. At that time the fine words that Deputy Owen has just repeated were ignored by various Ministers. I will spare the Deputy's blushes, but I will show her the letters afterwards.
That is not the issue.
I will show the Deputy the letters after this, and it will make the hair rise on her head. I will give the reason why I cannot accede to the request, much as I would wish to. I beg the Deputy to hear me out. This is a matter for the County Dublin VEC and Deputy Owen may engage in all the histrionics she wants, throwing herself at Ministers' feet and nailing herself to office doors, but I will read the legal advice which the County Dublin VEC sought and which I am now bound by. The legal advice is as follows:
Dear Ms. O'Regan,
Your letter dated the 14th of February 1989 has been passed on to us by the County Dublin Vocational Education Committee. We have advised our client that it does not have a legal liability to compensate Swords Community Council for any expenditure incurred by the Council relating to the property.
As a statutory body subject to the statutory limitations and guidelines as regards disbursement of funds the committee has no discretion in this matter.
Our instructions are accordingly to advise Swords Community Council that the committee will not be making any payments to it.
Any further communication regarding this matter should be directed to this office.
When the community council came to see me some time ago I took out this letter, and the file also has a second legal opinion which the VEC got from a senior counsel and that opinion is also dated.
What is the date?
I told the community council that night that my hands were tied because the VEC had sought legal opinion and because I am bound by that legal opinion. I would be responsible for any funds paid out despite a legal opinion telling me or the VEC not to pay. The case rests there. Swords Community Council have done great good for their area but because of their very inappropriate decision to seek legal opinion, a legal opinion which told the VEC not to pay, I would now be responsible if I paid the money because I had overlooked the legal opinion of a senior counsel and the opinion expressed in a solicitors letter given to me. When they sought the legal opinion they took the wrong course. My hands are tied.
You could give a grant in lieu. The Minister could use her powers to give a grant.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister's reply ended the debate.