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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Dec 1990

Vol. 403 No. 8

Private Members' Business. - An Bille um an Aonú Leasú Déag ar an mBunreacht, 1990: An Dara Céim (Atógáil). Eleventh Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1990: Second Stage (Resumed).

Atairgeadh an cheist: "Go léifear an Bille an Dara hUair."
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I was winding up on what I had to say on this Bill in relation to Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution and I touched on the attitude of Fine Gael in relation to that. The change in attitude of the Fine Gael Party is amazing in view of what was contained in The Irish Times 16 days after the decision in the McGimpsey case when there was an indication from the spokesman on behalf of the then Leader of Fine Gael that there would be no change in Articles 2 or 3 or in the Constitution in isolation. That rubbishes the argument made by Deputy Barry both in this House and in a letter written to The Irish Times where he endeavoured to say that the change in attitude was as a result of the McGimpsey case. Subsequent to that decision the Fine Gael attitude in relation to Articles 2 and 3 had not changed. It is because there was a change in leadership in Fine Gael and because Deputy Bruton articulated his views in a personal capacity subsequent to the McGimpsey case that the change in attitude occurred.

I am glad Deputy Bruton is present because I managed to find his speech to the rally in Galway last weekend. It is an amazing speech in view of Fine Gael's attitude through the years. It was not given the publicity it deserved.

I will say it again if necessary.

I will quote some of it and if I am incorrect Deputy Bruton will, no doubt, intervene.

I am sure the Deputy will be absolutely correct.

He said: "We have no special relationship with anybody there based on religion or ethnic origin".

I am sorry, "alone". That is an amazing statement. The Anglo-Irish Agreement went into the special relationship that exists on this island between North and South, particularly between the Nationalist people in the North and those in the South. He went on to say: "Our concern must therefore be to remove all claims, all territorial imperatives and all historic dreams." I wonder——

Finish the sentence.

——"that prevents the two communities in Northern Ireland from sitting down together."

(Interruptions.)

They are the dreams that everyone on this island, bar perhaps the Fine Gael Party, are interested in keeping.

He said that they should work out their own destiny together. What about us? What about our destiny on the island with the Unionists and the Nationalists in the North? Are we not entitled to work out our destiny?

You have no claim against us.

The Deputy went on to say that both communities should stop looking over their shoulders to Dublin and to London. I said earlier that the Nationalists in the North look to Dublin. They do not look to the Six County state and they most certainly do not look to the British Government. That is one of the reasons the intergovernmental conference which started as a result of the relationship between Deputy Haughey and Mrs. Thatcher in 1980, was set up. It was to enable the Dublin Government to articulate the views and aspirations of the Nationalist community.

I draw Fine Gael's attention to a very critical editorial directed both at Deputies Bruton and Barry in the Irish News arising out of comments made by them which stated:

He and Mr. Bruton have moral responsibilities to help bring about lasting peace. Instead they appear to want to wash their hands of Northern Ireland and hope that it will float off into the Irish Sea....

The Irish News articulates the views of the Nationalist people in the North. How can Deputy Bruton come in here and take the attitude he is taking towards the Bill——

It is precisely because I am concerned about these people that I am taking the position I am taking.

——and not take cognisance of what the main media voice of the Nationalist people is saying? It could be argued that the editorial was unfair but it illustrates the importance of sensitivity to the feelings of Northern Nationalists which is not evident among the promoters and supporters of this motion.

Deputy Spring is not present but I was astounded by his contribution. The reality is sinking in, particularly after some of the media comment over the weekend, and I hope it will sink in on the far side of the House that this will not succeed. It is important that bad signals do not go out from this House in relation to Articles 2 and 3 which would give the Unionists another idea to latch on to if they have not already done so——

It will never sink into the heads of the members of Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Roche dealt comprehensively with Deputy Byrne's party and I do not intend to add to it, even though I could because of personal knowledge of their previous records. The Labour Party have done a massive U-turn in relation to this. They are going against their speeches in the Seanad last March on Articles 2 and 3 and they are also going against the spirit of a motion passed at their 1989 Labour Party conference which specifically rejected a resolution calling for a referendum on Articles 2 and 3. Therefore, the Parliamentary Labour Party are flouting the wishes of the Labour Party conference for the purposes of political opportunism. Indeed, on 21 March last Labour Senators savaged the proposal. Senator Upton stated:

What is being proposed in this motion is a once-off business, it is not part of any package, it is not part of any initiative aimed at bringing peace to the North. It is piecemeal; it is taken in isolation... I believe that such a debate would polarise the country in a manner that would be divisive and acrimonious. That is the last thing this country needs at this time... It would be disastrous to hold a referendum now without having that as part of an overall package...

Senator Costello said that the motion diverted attention from the real work of bridge-building. It is an amazing turnaround for The Labour Party to now say that they will unanimously support the Bill.

Article 2 of the Constitution of The Labour party says: "The Labour Party affirms that the national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and territorial seas, and it accepts as part of its immediate programme the work of securing social justice and equal opportunities for all citizens..."

Deputy Spring's speech was probably relevant to the fact that one of his recently acquired members objected to their previous attitude in support of non-alteration of Articles 2 and 3. I understand that Deputy Kemmy put the gun to Deputy Spring's head in relation to this Bill and said that if the Labour Party did not support it he would leave the party. That would have had a disastrous effect on The Labour Party. There is no Labour Deputy here at present but perhaps one of their members would like to comment on that in his next speech to the House.

My main concern in regard to the proposal is that it is glib and a piece of fashionable gimmickry for the purpose of grabbing headlines and putting the Government on the spot. If, as Deputy De Rossa said, he does not want to drive a wedge between the two government parties, why did he not consult the government parties beforehand — particularly the main government party — and let them know what he had in mind in relation to this? As far as I am aware, it was not discussed between the two parties.

The Deputy's party leader did not even bother to reply to my letter.

This is not a well thought out proposal and does not have the interests of the people of Northern Ireland at heart. The Bill should not be put to a vote.

The time has come to call another Member.

We should listen to James Connolly and I will paraphrase what he said. Ireland is nothing to me without its people. Its people include one million Unionists. We must try to come to terms with them in the hope that together we can pursue peace and prosperity on this island in an arrangement which finds acceptance on all sides and which will not be a threat to either tradition. To tinker with our Constitution at this time will merely deflect our energies from the delicate process which lies ahead.

On a point of order, James Connolly never said any such thing.

It must be the James Connolly who appears on "Nighthawks".

It is a new twist that James Connolly worried about the Constitution.

I am calling Deputy Bruton.

If the Provisional IRA were not murdering Protestants for no other reason than that they are Protestants, we would not be talking about Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution. If there was peace on this island it would be considered a mere cosmetic exercise to talk about these Articles. If there was peace the Unionists would have no more than an academic interest in the matter. The Bill would then be seen as the tidying up of archaic legislation rather than as a matter of life or death, and it is a matter of life or death.

The fact is — and the Taoiseach cannot deny this — that the Provisional IRA defend their murders by reference to the so-called national struggle. These Articles of our Constitution define this nation in a way that gives a spurious justification to what the IRA do towards the objective of "reintegrating the national territory".

The Taoiseach's reference to Article 29 of the Constitution does not overcome this difficulty. Article 29 affirms the adherence of this State to "the principle of the pacific settlement of international disputes by international arbitration or judicial determination". Note the word "international" in this Article. Article 2 of the Constitution, however, says very clearly that the national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland so, within the terms of the 1937 Constitution, matters concerning Northern Ireland are national matters, not international matters. I contend that the words, therefore, of Article 29 about specific resolution of disputes do not apply as far as the Constitution is concerned to Northern Ireland in the present wording of the Constitution. That is why I am strongly of the view that the people of this State should charge the wording of the Constitution so as to deny all excuses to the Provisional IRA. We should do this ourselves and for our own sake, not as a bargaining tactic with Unionists or anyone else.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I strongly believe that the content of our Constitution is not something to be bartered in the manner of a huckster. We should have a Constitution that states our own beliefs about peace, consent and human rights. We should have it because it is right in itself, not because of some deal we have made — or might make in the future — with someone else.

The Provisional IRA have rendered one service — and one service only — to the Irish people, they have torn away the veil. They have shown the ultimate reality of territorial nationalism, a nationalism which places a higher value on natural physical boundaries, seas, islands and rivers than it puts on the wishes of the people who live within those boundaries. The ultimate reality of an imposed territorial unity has been shown to us by the Provisionals for what it really is, the face of fascism, the killing fields.

Ireland under the Provisional IRA would be an island of prison camps and jails, of secret police and of cleansing pogroms. This is no exaggeration. One detail in their political programme that came to light due to the discovery of some internal documents some time ago is that the Provisionals intend — on seizing power — to impound all passports of Irish citizens. One could not leave the country without the permission of Gerry Adams. That is the world of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

It has become acceptable to refer to the existence of two traditions — to use the word of the Forum and the Anglo-Irish Agreement — two "identities" on this island. It is worth noting that a few years ago this recognition might not have been acceptable. Given, therefore, that there are two identities, given also that we will soon have political unity in Europe as a whole and given that Europe is moving away from the sole concept of nation states and embracing new concepts of federalism and devolution, why should our Constitution continue to stick so rigidly to the concept of the unitary nation state standing alone before the world without reference to any other entities or ways of arranging affairs among its people? That concept of a nation state, of territorial reunification of nations, was a lot more fashionable in the Europe of 1937 than in the Europe of 1991. The theory of the territorial imperative to unity so fashionable in 1937 led to a disastrous result just two years later when applied to the case of the free city of Danzig in September 1939.

Indeed, the Supreme Court in a 1976 judgment on Articles 2 and 3 pointed out that political theories or doctrines have evolved a lot since those articles were first drafted in 1937 drawing, indeed, a great deal from the sad and tragic experiences of Europe in the intervening period. The Supreme Court in 1976 identified a political doctrine of the thirties as lying behind Articles 2 and 3, namely the doctrine that a "nation, as distinct from a state, had rights"—"that a nation has a right to unity of territory in some form" and that "this national right to unity was superior to positive law". Thus, in recognising these doctrines of the thirties as underlying Articles 2 and 3, the Supreme Court implicitly recognised in 1976 that those doctrines were then out of date. If the Supreme Court could see this in 1976, surely it is not too early for the Dáil to recognise it in 1990. It is fair to point out, however unpalatable it may be to all of us to recall, that the boundary agreement of 1925 was a treaty recognised and registered with the League of Nations, a body of which Mr. de Valera went on to be a distinguished president afterwards, just as the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 was in its time registered with the United Nations.

The Taoiseach sought to justify these articles in our Constitution by reference to Article 1 of the German basic law, which says that "the entire German people are called upon to achieve, in freeself-determination, the unity and freedom of Germany". The Taoiseach says that these Articles led to the peaceful reunification of East and West Germany. They did, but only because a majority in East Germany voted first that that should happen, not because of the words in the basic law. This is not the present case in Northern Ireland. Article 1 of the German basic law would not be seen in such a benign light by the Taoiseach or by anyone else if instead of being used to justify and underpin the reunification of East and West Germany, it had been used to impose unification with Germany of that portion of Polish Silesia now occupied by a large German minority as distinct from majority as in East Germany. Indeed, the Poles accepted German unification only when Germany had first renounced all claims beyond the Oder-Niesse line. The Taoiseach might look at this modern parallel with Poland, and their attitude in that matter vis-à-vis Silesia, to see if it helps him — and he might have more empathy with the Poles than with the Northern Unionists — to understand Unionist worries about Articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution at this time.

I would ask the Taoiseach and the House to consider how we would have reacted if we were faced for the past 70 years with a substantial minority who did not accept the legitimacy of our State, who looked to Northern Ireland as their political home while a minority among them supported a terrorist campaign designed to overthrow our Government in Dublin. If that had been our experience over the last 70 years, how kindly would we look at a claim in the Constitution of Northern Ireland of a right to govern the whole island? Would we shrug it off as mere words on paper? Would we rush to make concessions in order to cajole the Northern Ireland Government into removing the Articles? If we are to make progress in politics we must try to put ourselves into the minds of our adversaries and into the minds of those with whom we do not agree. Anything else is mere rhetoric.

Deputy Spring disappointed me when he said, on behalf of the Labour Party, that concessions on so fundamental a symbol as Articles 2 and 3 deserved to be part of a process of give and take to put it at the very mildest. Deputy Spring even allowed himself to wonder if there was any guarantee that the Unionists would respond positively. Of course there is no guarantee. A person would never do any of the worthwhile things in life if he waited for a guarantee of that kind in advance. It is up to us as citizens of a mature well-established State, sure in our democratic traditions, confident of our independent place in Europe, to take the first step. We should not wait for the Unionists, who have no State of their own, who are a frightened and beleagured minority within this island, and equally importantly, if not more importantly, a frightened and beleagured minority within the United Kingdom. We should take the first step. The reason that so little progress has been made in Northern Ireland over so many years is that the strong have always waited on the weak to make the first concession. If we persist in that course Deputy Spring will be an old man before any progress is made.

Another concern repeatedly voiced by Deputy Spring, which I do not understand is that the present Bill would give a veto to Unionists in the Constitution. The Deputy seemed to argue that such a veto is all right in the Anglo-Irish Agreement where it could be changed but that it is not all right in the Constitution where it could not so easily be changed. Why this distinction? I would have thought that a majority in Northern Ireland have an actual veto on unity anyway, unless of course Deputy Spring or others have some unstated intention in unstated circumstances of somehow coercing them into a united Ireland. I do not believe that that would ever be Deputy Spring's view. Therefore, I do not understand his worry about a Unionist veto in this context. Unless we or the British are prepared to contemplate coercion the Unionists already have and continue to have a veto on unity, so why be so upset about putting that fact into the Constitution? That is a fact and we should in the debates in this House have the courage to recognise facts for what they are.

This is a negative point. Indeed, this whole debate is rather negative. We are talking about removing things. Let us talk instead about the positive business of building peace on this island. Peace will only come when people feel secure. Changing Articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution can go a long way towards making Unionists feel secure. The Anglo-Irish Agreement, however much Unionists may complain about it, was equally absolutely necessary to give Northern Nationalists an equivalent sense of security. There is a lot more that can be done to make all sides feel more secure in the future than they do now.

Let me set out, in the time that remains to me, a balanced programme to bring peace to our island, peace based on what is actually possible. That, if I may say so as the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, was the great genius of those men who put their names to the Treaty of 1921, the vision to see what was staight in front of them rather than some distant dream. Having first lifted the siege of Northern Ireland posed by Articles 2 and 3, we should then pursue the following five-point programme for peace on this island.

The first point would be an immediate change in Unionist attitudes to executive powersharing. At the constitutional convention some years ago the SDLP rightly demanded full powersharing, saying that they represented a community which had been discriminated against for 50 years. If they were to support the existing institutions it was not enough to be a permanent minority on parliamentary committees, even if they held the chair of some of those committees; they had to be at the inner councils where the final decisions were to be made. The Unionists tried to counter this by saying it was contrary to the British system of Cabinet Government.

The SDLP countered that argument by saying that even that system contemplated a form of national Government involving all parties to deal with war or other national crises, as had actually happened during both World Wars in Britain. The SDLP claimed, rightly to my mind, that there was such a crisis, which continues to exist, in Northern Ireland. When the Unionists rejected that SDLP argument, the constitutional convention collapsed. The Unionists must — I repeat must — change their position on this matter of executive powersharing. It is a key to further progress.

The second point would be a European guarantee of minority political rights, of the right to a fair trial, and of the fairness and effectiveness — which is equally important — of extradition procedures. European law, whether emanating from the European Community or from the Council of Europe, can provide a more acceptable way of solving difficult problems than simple bilateral arrangements between Ireland and Britain, which can become fraught with unnecessary emotions and suspicions on both sides. Indeed, I would like to see the European Convention on Human Rights incorporated into the domestic law of both Ireland and Britain.

The third point would be a massive investment in job creation targeted at the ghettoes of West Belfast, at both Protestant and Catholic pockets of prejudice and fear, where terrorism feeds on unemployment. The object of this exercise should be to see that no young man or woman from, say, Andersonstown or Poleglass should be out of a job if he or she is willing to work. Nothing would do more to dry up the waters in which the provisional IRA piranha swim than full employment in west Belfast.

The fourth point would involve a general release of a large number of long sentence prisoners, and short sentence detainees, where, in the view of competent authorities such as police, clergymen and parole officers, the likelihood is that those released will not return to political terrorism. In particular there should be widespread releases this Christmas of young detainees. The fact is that there are too many prisoners serving sentences in Northern Ireland to allow the local communities to assert control over the paramilitaries in the areas from which those prisoners originate. Nothing would do more to demoralise the Provisional IRA than the loss of the relatives' support groups and the loss of the internal discipline that they themselves exercise over prisoners still in jail. This is the view of observers such as Fr. Denis Faul, an acute commentator and a most courageous participant in the affairs of Northern Ireland. What gives his view, in favour of large-scale releases, such cogency is the fact that he is the most relentless opponent of the Provisional IRA.

The fifth point would be a reappraisal by Nationalists and Unionists of their positions whereby Nationalists would stop looking over their shoulders down to Dublin, and the Unionists looking over their shoulders to Westminister, There is no way that either the SDLP or the Unionist parties can grow to full maturity as long as they see themselves, in any sense, as dependent on outside support.

Let me conclude by saying a few words about the Bill before us. I support it because this House must open up this question of Articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution.

I have, however, some major technical objections to this Bill. It contains not one but two consent clauses: one in Article 2 and another in Article 3. Regrettably these two clauses are inconsistent with one another; the first refers to the "consent of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland", and the second merely refers to "consent"— on its own — without any qualification and in a sentence in which there is reference both to the "people of the state" and to the "people of Ireland". This sort of confusion suggests that insufficient care was taken in drafting the Bill.

Notwithstanding that, this Bill should pass its Second Stage, but a great deal of work needs to be done before it can be presented to the people. I am sure the authors probably acknowledge that. We would first need a White Paper which would tell the electorate, in terms such as I have used, of the need for a change, would give a clear wording of the new Articles — and there is obviously room for improvement so far as this Bill is concerned — would guarantee the continued protection of those who need it through the continuance of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, and would, as do the Preambles to both the 1937 and the Free State Constitutions, underline our desire — and we are entitled to that — for the unity of our country.

Against this background we could then proceed to build a structure of peace on this island and, equally importantly, we could finally come to terms with the existence and the legitimacy of our own State, as no mere provisional entity under the Constitution but as a State with 70 years of proud and permanent achievement to its name.

I propose to share my time with Deputy David Andrews.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

Many people must be asking themselves why this Bill has been introduced at this particular time. That is certainly a question that has occurred to me and I confess that, despite several days of debate, I am no wiser as to the answer.

Some people see political opportunism as the motive that has caused this Bill to be introduced. I hope that is not the case. If it were true, I would say in the strongest possible terms that this is the last issue which should be used to score political points or make capital out of. The people of the North have enough to put up with, they have had enough deaths and suffering to be spared at least that fate and we down here in the South would do well to bear that in mind.

Even if the Bill was inspired by worthy motives, such as a desire to contribute something to solving the Northern problem — even then, I am convinced that its introduction was misguided and the potential for harm very great. Can Deputies who have followed events in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years really believe that an isolated, unilateral action such as this will solve the problem? Can they seriously believe that it is as simple as that? Surely it is plain by now that the problems of our island, and of our relationship with Britain, are complex matters that require a considered, coherent approach and not half thought-out measures?

I believe very strongly that there is no "quick fix" solution to the problem of Northern Ireland. Some Deputies in the debate have given the impression that the amendment of Articles 2 and 3 would have some kind of magical effect on attitudes in the North and on Anglo-Irish relations. I sincerely believe they are deceiving themselves. Worse, what they propose would send out a completely misleading signal at a time when negotiations are under way about the three sets of relationships in this island and between Ireland and Britain. Whatever the intentions of those proposing it, the Bill is ill-conceived and ill-timed. As the Taoiseach said here last week:

The proposals in this Bill are superfluous and unnecessary, if not constitutionally offensive, and could upset the broad consensus here on Northern Ireland that has existed since the New Ireland Forum; and they could send signals of despair to many constitutional nationalists whose hopes and aspirations some here are inclined to overlook on occasions like this.

For these reasons I believe that Dáil Éireann should reject the Bill.

I was interested to note from the debate that some of the Bill's supporters themselves have doubts about its content and timing. Deputy Dick Spring made an interesting contribution last week in which he said "perhaps the timing and the changes proposed are not appropriate to the time". He also said that if Article 3 were amended as proposed we could end up with "a new Article which comprises a mix of political aspiration and a legally vague statement which limits the jurisdiction we claim. He went on to say in trying to find a solution we may end up with a more difficult problem". He also warned that the way the Bill was worded could be seen as "writing a Unionist veto into our Constitution". I only wish that the Deputy would follow the logic of his arguments to their obvious conclusion and withdraw his party's support for the Bill.

There was much in Deputy Spring's speech I could agree with but I cannot accept his contention that the Government have not been keeping the political parties down here informed of what they are doing in the field of Anglo-Irish affairs. The Taoiseach, I and other Ministers have reported regularly to this House on important developments and we have every intention of doing so in the future. I cannot agree that there is any comparison with Mr. Brooke's consultations with the political parties in the North, which is a different exercise altogether.

The Anglo-Irish Agreement is the framework for Anglo-Irish co-operation in relation to Northern Ireland. Deputies are familiar with the provisions of the Agreement so I will not labour the point here but perhaps I may say a few words about the way the Agreement works in practice. As Joint Chairman of the Intergovernmental Conference, I participate in meetings which are held on a frequent basis — usually once a month. A wide range of subjects is discussed at Conference meetings and these are pursued between Conference meetings by officials on a continuous basis. The subjects dealt with have a direct relevance to the day-to-day lives of the people of Northern Ireland; they include the issue of confidence of the community in the security forces, economic co-operation, the administration of justice and security co-operation. What strikes me and other Ministers who are involved in the process, such as my colleague the Minister for Justice, is how wide-ranging and important are the issues we deal with.

Last month saw the fifth anniversary of the Agreement. Over the period of its existence, the Agreement has brought important changes and reforms in Northern Ireland including new and strong fair employment legislation and more impartial policing of marches. The International Fund for Ireland, established in conjunction with the Agreement, has been doing good work. However, there is still a great deal to be done on the agenda set by the Agreement; and we want to see further progress in the period ahead on a range of issues of great importance to the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland.

Over the past year the Irish and British Governments, in an effort to achieve political progress, have been willing to consider new arrangements or structures which would transcend the present Anglo-Irish Agreement. Any such new arrangement, which would be arrived at through direct discussion and negotiation between all of the parties concerned, would need to give expression to the three relationships concerned — between the communities in Northern Ireland; between North and South in the island of Ireland, and between Britain and Ireland. Efforts are being made to find a framework for such talks. In this regard we believe in particular that the framework must adequately reflect the reality that these three relationships are interlinked.

This is the position as it stands and we shall be continuing to pursue our objectives in the time ahead with the aim of finding a lasting settlement to the problems that face us on this island. nobody can be in doubt as to the magnitude of the task or the difficulty of attaining success, but I have no doubt that it is through following the policies that I have just outlined that we have the best chance of making progress. To go down the kind of by-road which this Bill opens up would be totally unproductive, in my view. It is the worst of timing, to put it no stronger, to put forward proposals for the amendment of our Constitution at a time when negotiations are at such a delicate stage. It is bound to confuse the issue and send the wrong signal to both communities in the North.

It has been argued in some quarters that the Government, in refusing to support the Bill, are displaying inflexibility and an unwillingness to countenance change. I reject that charge and call to witness our record on the Brooke initiative as evidence of our willingness to be flexible. In the discussions about finding a way to get talks off the ground, the Government and the SDLP have at all times shown a willingness to compromise. We have gone out of our way to try to accommodate the conditions the Unionists have laid down, only for them to come up with new preconditions. Nevertheless, realising what is at stake, we have continued in our efforts to find a basis for talks. Neither do we rule out the possibility that a situation could exist one day where entirely new political arrangements would be discussed for this island, nor that Articles 2 and 3 could not be looked at in the context of such new arrangements. We have repeatedly said that new arrangements or structures which might be agreed for Ireland as a whole would require a new Constitution. But that is the context in which to consider change, not in the piecemeal, ill-considered way this Bill favours.

One must ask what would be the likely result if this Bill were to be passed. The strong likelihood is that, far from promoting reconciliation, it would cause discord and division both in Northern Ireland and here in the South. Much has been made of the effect that amending Articles 2 and 3 could have on Unionist sensitivities. This Government are not in the least lacking in their appreciation of the need to respect Unionist sensitivities; we have repeatedly made clear our readiness to enter into dialogue with their leaders. But we must also have regard to Nationalist sensitivities and these cannot take second place to the obligations we owe others. We owe it to Northern Nationalists, who have had to put up with so much over the past 70 years, to leave no doubt of the value we place on what they have achieved and what they aspire to. They have pursued the Nationalist ideal, by purely constitutional means, and have rejected the men of violence. They deserve better than to be told now that we no longer want a Constitution that gives full expression to the Nationalist ideal.

What could we expect down here if so charged an issue were put to a referendum? Would it not inevitably result in a divisive and sterile debate? Perhaps the gravest charge that has been made by supporters of the Bill is that Articles 2 and 3 can be interpreted as justifying the use of violence in pursuit of a United Ireland. The Taoiseach addressed this point when he spoke here last week, and I would like to repeat what he said:

I utterly and totally reject the view that our legitimate democratic claim to unity can be construed by any reasonable person as a justification for using violence. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution which can in any way justify the continuation of the campaign of violence being conducted by the IRA. In fact, those who follow the path of violence are making a travesty of the heritage of this country and our conduct since we gained independence, as well as denying totally the fundamental democratic principles enshrined in our Constitution.

Articles 2 and 3 do not imply any aggressive territorial intent; on the contrary, the Constitution makes it abundantly clear, in Article 29, paragraphs 1 and 2, that Ireland is devoted to the ideal of peace and friendly co-operation and that it adheres to the principles of the pacific settlement of disputes.

Successive Governments have adhered faithfully to these principles with the result that Ireland is recognised throughout the world as being committed to the cause of peace and co-operation. We have been a staunch member of the United Nations for many years and have held firm to the principles set out in the Charter of that organisation. Our soldiers have earned the highest reputation serving the cause of peace in many lands on the United Nations behalf. We fully support the principles set out in the Helsinki Final Act of 1975, recently reaffirmed by the Charter of Paris.

Our commitment to co-operation and the peaceful settlement of disputes is there for all to see. The same certainly cannot be said for the men of violence. Do the supporters of this Bill imagine that the IRA, who have not the least regard for our laws or our democratic process, will be persuaded that it represents a fundamental change and that their cause is lost? Would it not be far more likely that they would see it as a justification for the use of force and for pursuing their own futile agenda?

Articles 2 and 3 are central provisions of our Constitution, which has been in existence for 50 years, and there is a heavy onus on those who seek to alter them to demonstrate that the case for amendment is persuasive. I believe that the proposers and supporters of the Bill have failed to do this. Similarly, I do not believe that there is anything in our present Constitution which could obstruct our working towards a peaceful solution with all sides in Northern Ireland. This Bill is a diversion and an irrelevancy at a time when serious efforts are being made to move the political process forward. I reject the political opportunism which lies behind the Bill, and I believe the House should firmly reject the Bill itself.

I was a member of the Committee on the Constitution who reported in December 1967. They suggested at paragraph 12 on page 5 of the Final Report a new provision to replace Article 3:

1. The Irish nation hereby proclaims its firm will that its territory be reunited in harmony and brotherly affection between all Irishmen.

2. The Laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall, until the achievement of the Nation's unity shall otherwise require, have the like area and extent of application as the Laws of Parliament which existed prior to the adoption of this Constitution. Provision may be made by Law to give extra-territorial effect to such Laws.

It is interesting to note that so many good and great people were members of that committee. Unfortunately and tragically, some have now passed to their reward elsewhere. The chairman of the committee was the late George Colley, while the membership included James Dooge, Seán Dunne, Denis F. Jones, Seán Lemass, Robert M. Molloy, Michael O'Kennedy, Thomas F. O'Higgins, Eoin Ryan, Gerard Sweetman, James Tully and, as I have already pointed out, mé féin.

Paragraph 2 of the final Report of the informal Committee on the Constitution stated:

It was agreed between the political parties that participation in this Committee would involve no obligation to support any recommendations which might be made, even if made unanimously. It was also agreed that the members of the Committee, either as individuals or as party representatives, would not be regarded as committed in any way to report such recommendations.

It is important to recall that the committee reported on 14 December 1967 and that the troubles began in the North during the period 1967-70 in the real sense. The deliberations of the committee were held at a time when it could not have been anticipated that in the period from 1970 to 1990 thousands of ordinary decent citizens in the North, and indeed the South, including members of the British Defence Forces, the RUC, the Garda Síochána and our own Defence Forces, would be dead 20 years later and many thousands of people would be seriously injured arising from the ongoing conflict which afflicts that part of this green island of ours. I now realise, having been a member of that committee, that what was good for 1967 may not necessarily be good for 1990.

Article 29 of the Constitution, which deals specifically with international relations and peace, states:

1. Ireland affirms its devotion to the ideal of peace and friendly co-operation amongst nations founded on international justice and morality.

2. Ireland affirms its adherence to the principle of the pacific settlement of international disputes by international arbitration or judicial determination.

3. Ireland accepts the generally recognised principles of international law as its rule of conduct in its relations with other States.

The reason I quote Article 29 of the Constitution is that I wish to indicate that the aspirations for national unity are based on a wish that the ongoing problems in that regard be resolved by peaceful means and that the existing Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution present a threat to no one except to those who wish to see a threat contained in them.

I was also a member of the New Ireland Forum who reported on 2 May 1984. The preface to Chapter 1 states:

1.1 The New Ireland Forum was established for consultations on the manner in which lasting peace and stability could be achieved in a new Ireland through the democratic process and to report on possible new structures and processes through which this objective might be achieved.

1.2 Participation in the Forum was open to all democratic parties which reject violence and which have members elected or appointed to either House of the Oireachtas or the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Four political parties took part in the Forum: the Fianna Fáil Party, the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the legitimate and democratic representatives of the Nationalist population in the North, the SDLP. Unfortunately, the Unionists were not represented at the New Ireland Forum. Evidence was given to the committee by the brothers Christopher and Michael McGimpsey but the point that should be made is that none of the Unionists parties was represented at the New Ireland Forum despite a clear invitation to them to participate.

The Anglo-Irish Agreement in Article 1.a. affirms that any change in the status of Northern Ireland would come about only with the consent of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland, in Article 1.b. recognises that the present wish of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland is for no change in the status of Northern Ireland and in Article 1.c. declares that if in the future a majority of the people of Northern Ireland clearly wish for and formally consent to the establishment of a united Ireland, they will introduce and support legislation to give effect to that wish. Again, a clear view is expressed in Article 1 of the Anglo-Irish Agreement that a solution to the Irish problem be brought about by consent and by peaceful means. Despite the dreadful efforts of the so-called IRA and the extreme Orange organisations, who seek to bomb and maim people into a united Ireland or who seek the continuation of the union with Britain, at all times the democratically elected Parliament in this community, and in that community, have indicated that they do not wish the solution to the problems of the unity of this island to be brought about by violence.

As the Minister for Foreign Affairs has indicated, piecemeal tinkering with the Constitution is no answer to the problem. One of the answers to the problem is discussion of the totality of relationships within and without this island. Then we can take a look at Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution within a new agreement or a new Constitution. A legitimate aspiration to unity in Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution is not unreasonable. I do not see such aspiration as either aggressive or offensive. In the present atmosphere if we delete Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution we may well be handing over the question of unity to the IRA, who consider themselves to be the only true upholders of the principle of unity.

Yesterday in the Seanad Chamber the leaders of all the main Opposition parties indicated that it was unfortunate that the Anglo-Irish parliamentary tier did not have among its members those of the Unionist tradition north of the Border and that, to this day, there remain two empty seats in that assembly, of which I also happen to be a member. No later than this very afternoon there was strong wish expressed by members of the British side of the parliamentary tier, and the Irish side, north and south of the Border — on the part of those present — to have the Unionists there, to have them before us, have them with us, that they be part of us. Indeed the Taoiseach's often repeated invitation to the Unionists to meet him is unconditional and remains on the table; it is still there. There is now an opportunity for them to take up that invitation. They cannot live for ever in the past, in their hope that the past will represent them in the future. Change must come about. They must face up to that reality. I believe that opportunity is now open to them. Again, returning to what the Minister for Foreign Affairs said, if the Brooke initiative is successful in the context of talk about talks, then what we seek to achieve is sitting down, eyebal to eyeball, with the Unionist tradition of the northern part of this island. That will bring about a real solution to the problems.

I agree with the Leader of the Labour Party, for whom I have very high regard, when he says that the Bill before the House was badly timed. He also questioned the political judgment of its proposers. But that is where I part company with him because he makes these reasonable comments but says, on the other hand, he will support the Bill. Of course that is his democratic entitlement but it leaves me with a sense of suspended ambiguity.

It is ironic that the leader of The Workers' Party should take the opportunity of going to Belfast to criticise the Fianna Fáil position on the Bill, and the Taoiseach in particular. There is nothing I would like to see more than an all-Ireland Assembly with Unionists sitting opposite the Fianna Fáil Party, the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and The Workers' Party, together with the Nationalist parties, all represented. If we do not talk, how can we achieve solutions to the problems daily confronting us, more particularly those presented by the men of violence? If we do not fill the vacuum then it will be filled by those who seek to achieve their ends by force rather than by peaceful means. That is one of the real difficulties confronting this island at present.

The Unionist politicians should sit down with politicians from the Nationalist tradition on the one hand — that is in the North-North talks, then the North-South talks, and finally the third leg of the treble, as it were, the United Kingdom-Ireland talks. I find it very difficult to understand why they consider us a threat to them, or why, when they are invited to sit down to talk unconditionally they cannot do so. They cannot see that we do not represent a threat to them or do not seek to intimidate them.

The Government have been trying for almost a year to get the Unionists into these discussions without any result. Can we repeat incessantly that we do not intend to represent any threat to Unionism, that all we wish to do is to talk to them with a view to setting out a process, an agenda, for the future development of this island in a democratic fashion? That is why I believe the Bill before the House and its intent will not achieve its purpose, that it is badly timed and unfortunate. In the circumstances, the unconditional abandonment of Articles 2 and 3 must be rejected at this time.

The IRA have no mandate whatsoever for their actions. They have continued to treat with contempt the Easter Proclamation which urged those served the Republic not to dishonour its cause by cowardice, inhumanity or rapine. A small group of terrorists who have the gall to call themselves the IRA have hijacked the names of those who fought from 1916 to 1921. We have allowed them to do so by referring to them as such in the media and even in the Houses of the Oireachtas. The revisionists, the merchants of the new enlightenment, might also remember that some of us in this House would be dishonouring the memories of our fathers and mothers were we to disown the War of Independence as suggested by those who seek to revise history in that regard. There is no longer a need to die or kill for Ireland. Yet we are forced to observe, on an almost daily basis, the obscenity of horrific atrocities in the North of Ireland and elsewhere committed in the name, though not with the approval of, the Republic.

Over the past two and a half years I have appeared on television and spoken on radio doing the best, within my competence, to explain Ireland's position in the context of our involvement in the Anglo-Irish Conference, in the overall area of the new Irish relations North and South, indeed the new relations between Ireland and the United Kingdom. I remember having spoken four times on the British and Northern Ireland media one morning between 7 and 8 o'clock. My reason for so saying is to indicate to the House my concern and interest in this whole area. I have been involved also in the cases of the Maguires, the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six. I have visited and met all of those individuals over the past ten years or more. Arising out of an accumulation of these experiences, I believe the Bill before the House does nothing to achieve a just solution to the problems afflicting the two communities in the North, or to bring any nearer an era of co-existence between North and South in a final solution to be agreed by all constitutional parties. Where politics fail, violence wins — that is the danger.

I listened to Mr. Séamus Mallon, MP, Deputy Leader of the SDLP — a member of the Nationalist tradition in the North, a man for whom I have the very highest regard and on whose general elections I worked frequently — in Dublin Castle this afternoon, when he made a very interesting point about the Bill before the House. I hope I am not breaking confidences but it is well known what would be Mr. Mallon's view on this Bill. He said that a referendum on Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution would cause untold damage, could release passions which have lain dormant for many years. I would like to think I listened very carefully to Mr. Mallon, whom I believe to be one of the authentic voices of Northern Nationalists. He would certainly represent my point of view on the subject about which we are speaking.

The 1967 Constitution Review Committee, the 1974 Sunningdale Agreement, the 1984 New Ireland Forum, the 1986 Anglo-Irish Agreement all have this common thread: they seek to achieve by peaceful means the resolution of this dreadful conflict that confronts this island.

With the agreement of the House, I propose to share my time with Deputies Byrne and Gilmore.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

May I first address Deputy Andrews and, in part, Deputy Dermot Ahern and other contributors from the Government side of the House and say that the Bill before the House seems to be entirely unknown to them?

We are proposing not the deletion of Article 2 and 3 but, in some way, to address their inadequacies and argue for their amendment or augmentation. It appeared to me that, throughout the contributions of both those Deputies and others, they referred constantly to the suggestion that what was being proposed by The Workers' Party was the deletion of those two Articles. That is not so. I can understand their position, perhaps in some way understand Mr. Mallon's view of the Bill, if he, like the other Deputies with whom he has spoken, was under the impression that what we were proposing was absolute deletion without any substitution.

It is time that this country faced up to the reality that the territorial claims contained in Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution are a legal and political nonsense and that they are furthermore an obstacle to peace and reconciliation on this island. It is time also for us, as the elected representatives of the Irish people, to be honest with ourselves and with our electorate, and tell them that maintaining Articles 2 and 3 in their present form will not only fail to bring unity, but are almost certainly delaying the unity of the Irish people.

It is the wish of my party to see unity in a single state on this island — that objective is set out in our party's constitution — but we realised many years ago that this can be achieved only when there is first unity of the people. Articles 2 and 3, in their present form, are an obstacle to the forging of that unity and must be changed.

Whatever justification the author of the 1937 Constitution may have felt for including them 53 years ago, they are now an anachronism and there is no justification for maintaining them in their present form. I am greatly encouraged by the results of the public opinion poll published in the Sunday Independent on Sunday last, which showed that a clear majority of those polled were in favour of amending the Articles to include a “consent” clause along the lines proposed in our Bill and that only a little more than a quarter of those polled believed that Articles 2 and 3 should be maintained in their present form. This is a clear public endorsement of the principles contained in our Bill. It shows, in fact, that public opinion on this issue is far more progressive than most of the opinion in this House. It also indicates that an amendment along the lines proposed in our Bill could be carried quite comfortably in a referendum.

Let us look for a few moments at what Articles 2 and 3 actually say and how these words are interpreted, especially in Northern Ireland. Article 2 says that "The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas". What this is saying is that the entire island of Ireland is ours, irrespective of the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. It is seen by many people within Northern Ireland, who do not share the aspiration to a united Ireland, as a suggestion that they are in some way "trespassers" on our island. It is seen as a more subtle and sophisticated version of the "Brits out" philosophy.

Article 3 on the other hand, asserts the right of this Parliament and this Government to exercise jurisdiction over the entire island — again without regard to the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland — but says that we will not do so for the moment; that we will not do so until we are in a position to exercise as well as claim jurisdiction. This is understandably seen by many people in Northern Ireland as an expression of hostility. I would repeat the question posed by Deputy De Rossa in his opening address last week, "how would we react if the United Kingdom claimed legal jurisdiction over our State?".

We should now accept that the sort of phoney posturing contained in Articles 2 and 3 is nonsense. Not one other country, not one other member of the EC, not even any one of the more than 150 members of the United Nations, recognises our claim to jurisdiction over Northern Ireland. In addition, as the Taoiseach himself pointed out last week, by joining the EC and by signing the Helsinki accord we were recognising existing borders between all European states, including the Border existing between this country and the United Kingdom.

Why is Fianna Fáil then so strongly resisting bringing Articles 2 and 3 into line with the other international agreements we have signed? What could be lost by amending them to include an aspiration to Irish unity, based on the consent of all of the Irish people? Surely this would far more accurately reflect the wishes of the people of this State and would serve to reassure Unionist opinion in Northern Ireland that we have no hostile intent towards them.

I want to turn now to the attitude of the Labour Party to our Bill. I very much welcome the fact that the Labour Party have agreed to support the Second Stage of the Bill. Their decision had a specific importance. While Deputy Spring had on a number of occasions acknowledged the need to look at these Articles, and while Deputy Kemmy had over the years played a major role in encouraging a reassessment of public opinion on the territorial claim, the Labour Party themselves were the only party in the House, other than Fianna Fáil, who had, up to last week, failed to come out specifically in support of the need for amendment of the two Articles. The fact that they have now indicated support for the principle of our Bill means that a majority of Deputies in this House support the case for changing these Articles. As a result of Labour's decision the balance of opinion in the House has now tipped against Articles 2 and 3 in their present form. The significance of this development should not be underestimated. As far as we are concerned, a majority in the House, the writing is on the wall for those Articles in their present form.

While I welcome the Labour Party's decision, I found Deputy Spring's speech last week to be negative and lacking in generosity. I am not particularly concerned about his lack of generosity to The Workers' Party, but I did find his attitude to those in Northern Ireland who do not share our aspiration to a united Ireland to be particularly begrudging. It was, as Deputy Ahern who spoke after him said, correctly, a speech that could have been made from the Fianna Fáil benches.

Articles 2 and 3 are an issue on which the Left should be taking the political leadership. The use of the so-called "national question" by Fianna Fáil over many decades has seriously inhibited the development of the Left in Ireland. Politics here has for too long been about flags, emblems and constitutional symbols, rather than about jobs, housing and emigration. The Left should be hammering nails into the coffin of romantic nationalistic myths. We should reject any suggestion that Northern Ireland represents the "fourth green field" stolen from us by the foreigner. We should state quite clearly that the concept of territorial unity has no validity other than as a natural follow-on to the unity of the people. Here I propose to correct the misquote of James Connolly by Deputy Ahern. It was, after all, James Connolly who said, and I quote, correctly I believe: "Ireland as distinct from her people means nothing to me". This is a good principle to keep in mind during the debate about these Articles.

Unlike the Labour Party, or indeed any other party in the House, The Workers' Party are the only one organised on a 32 county basis and with elected public representatives in Northern Ireland. This gives us a particular insight into the complexities of the situation there. Our party in Northern Ireland are quite small but, against all the odds, have succeeded in building a considerable level of cross-community support. Our councillors and members, in their day-to-day political activities, are in regular contact with Unionists and Unionist politicians. The picture Deputy Spring painted of them was a very ungenerous one, a community unwilling to consider change and who would see amendments to Articles 2 and 3 as a concession to "be pocketed and instantly forgotten". This is a dangerous generalisation, and not a view we share in The Workers' Party.

The current political attitudes of the Unionist people have to be considered against the background of the vicious campaign of sectarian murder which has been waged by the Provisional IRA against the Protestant people in Northern Ireland. This is a campaign which within the past ten days claimed another two civilian victims in County Derry. This is a campaign which, the Provisional IRA claim, is being waged in our name. Given the viciousness of that campaign it is a tribute to Unionists that they have been prepared to consider any concessions at all.

There is a fundamental difference in our view and the approach advocated by Deputy Spring. We believe that Articles 2 and 3 should be amended as a matter of basic democratic principle. Deputy Spring seems to be suggesting that they should be used as a bargaining counter, to be granted or withheld as a negotiating lever to extract concessions from the Unionists. This is very similar to the approach adopted by the Taoiseach, who has said on a number of occasions that changes to Articles 2 and 3 could be contemplated only as part of an overall settlement to the problem of Northern Ireland.

Deputy Spring also delivered a vigorous critique of the form of wording we are proposing. We have made it clear that we do not consider our proposals for the amendments to be infallible and that we are quite prepared to consider changes which are consistent with our overall objectives. It is a relatively easy step to accept in principle that Articles 2 and 3 should be amended. It is a far more difficult task, as we found, to come up with the ideal form of wording. We believe that ours is the best wording that has been suggested. Deputy Spring did not offer any alternative form of wording of his own. He is a former Tánaiste, with many years ministerial experience. He has as one of his close political advisers a distinguished former Attorney General. I look forward to them producing, in time, what they consider to be a better, if not, ideal formula.

Deputy Spring seemed also to be less than optimistic about the chances of a referendum to change Articles 2 and 3. I do not share his pessimistic outlook. As I said earlier, last Sunday's public opinion poll suggested that a referendum could be carried comfortably. Even before that poll I believed that, given the changing mood in the country, a reasonable proposition, which maintained the aspiration to unity while making clear that this would not be imposed against the will of the people of Northern Ireland, would have every chance of success. To those who say that a referendum to change Articles 2 and 3 would have no chance of success, I would remind them that six months ago every commentator and expert in the country was saying that a candidate supported by the parties of the Left could never win the Presidency.

Finally, let me also correct the record in regard to a statement made by Deputy Spring with regard to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. He said that he was the first member of the House to suggest the kind of concessions necessary to attract Unionists to the negotiating table "principally by removing the elements of coercion that they detected in the Anglo-Irish Agreement". The then leader of The Workers' Party, Tomás Mac Giolla, made the very same point during the Dáil debate on the agreement in 1985. A year later, when Deputy Spring was still Tánaiste, Tomás Mac Giolla again emphasised the need to take steps to ensure that the representatives of the Unionist community were involved in the dialogue. He suggested that the Anglo-Irish Conference should be restructured or the Anglo-Irish Agreement itself be temporarily suspended for a period of two or three months in order to achieve this.

The points I have made in regard to Deputy Spring's contributions are offered in a fraternal spirit — as I am sure his comments were last week — and do not in any way diminish the value we attach to the decision of the Labour Party Parliamentary Party to support our Bill on Second Stage. This is all part of a badly needed debate about Articles 2 and 3 which will be good for the Dáil, for the country and for the relationship between the people of this island.

In asking the House to accept the Second Stage reading in this House, I am asking the House, in supporting it, to allow the Bill to pass, as it must necessarily then do, to a special committee of this House where it could be debated with a clear and calm attitude. We must recognise now that since this debate was opened by The Workers' Party a short time ago there is clear evidence of support within the House by a majority of Deputies, and there is certainly support from a majority of people outside, to at least consider and discuss change. Accordingly, I would urge this Bill on the House.

The Taoiseach has accused us in The Workers' Party of a lack of political judgment in bringing forward this Bill. He claims that a referendum would be politically divisive and unproductive. Our judgement is that the two Articles breathe the spirit of an epoch in Irish political history which, mercifully, has passed. It was an epoch of inward-looking Catholic nationalism which while it might prate on and on about the need to recover the `fourth green field' was in practice more than willing to forget about the North and the conditions of its Catholic minority.

It is an insult to the intelligence of Northern Nationalists to claim that they draw any comfort from the existence of these two Articles. Northern Catholics have been for a long time justifiably cynical about the empty green verbalising which has become the stock-in-trade of Fianna Fáil on this issue. We do not need any lessons in political responsibility from a politician with the Taoiseach's track record on Northern Ireland. He may quote the Anglo-Irish Agreement at us now, but we need to remember that while we gave the Agreement critical support he and his then Tánaiste rubbished it as a betrayal of the nationalist objectives of Articles 2 and 3.

Is it any wonder that Ulster Unionists have greater reservations about responding to his repeated invitations to "openended dialogue"? Of course there are those on the Unionist side who have no interest in dialogue or a move beyond traditional entrenched positions. But the dominant position amongst the Unionist leadership has become more flexible. It is this which provides us with a new window of opportunity. The Taoiseach's predictable and negative response shows very clearly where the main obstacle to the Brooke initiative lies. For him "flexibility" means saying to the Unionists that we will agree to get rid of the offensive articles when they agree to "new arrangements and structures which might be agreed for Ireland as a whole". In other words, when Unionists agree to stop being Unionists and at last see the attractions of a unitary state, the Taoiseach would be flexible and magnanimous enough to consider the removal of the Articles. This is the person who charges us with hindering progress.

Does he really think that, after the united and bitter opposition of the whole Unionist community to the Anglo-Irish Agreement which gave the Irish Government an institutional right of consultation in the government of Northern Ireland, they can be persuaded to leave the United Kingdom altogether and live amicably in a united Ireland? The Taoiseach may be prepared to talk to the Unionists but this speech makes it very clear that he is only prepared to discuss the various methods by which they may join a united Ireland. He shares in the mentality crystallised in the two Articles, a mentality which denies them the ultimate right to say no. It is this anti-democratic component of Fianna Fáil ideology which is the real obstacle to political progress in Northern Ireland. He accuses us of lack of political judgement, but it is those politicians who have grandiose ambitions that some "final solution" to the Ulster conflict can be achieved in the near future by using the Brooke talks to slip the Unionists out of the United Kingdom who really lack political judgement and threaten the possibilities of real but limited progress which exist.

We do not want to favour Unionists' aspirations at the expense of the aspiration of Northern Nationalists. What we would challenge is the claim that the majority of Northern Irish Nationalists share in the traditionalistic thinking of the Taoiseach Deputy Haughey. Recent surveys have clearly demonstrated that those who put Irish unity at the top of their political agenda are a minority of Northern Nationalists.

Debate adjourned.
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