Vol. 403 No. 9
2 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he favours the introduction of a comprehensive system of committees in Leinster House, covering all Departments which would allow the Estimates for each Department, soon after their publication, and the Committee Stage of legislation to be taken in the relevant committee rather than on the floor of the House, thereby speeding up the process of legislation generally.
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges have been asked to report to this House with proposals for the reform of Dáil procedures. I would suggest that the Deputy, who is a member of the working group appointed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges for this purpose, should pursue this matter through that avenue.
Deputy Bruton is not here. He was a member of the working group but as he has moved to higher things he has now given the responsibility to Deputy Carey. Will the Taoiseach agree that the procedures and practices of the House have changed very little since 1922, that what we have in this Chamber is essentially based on the Westminster model? Will he agree that it is essentially slow and cumbersome in that only one-165th of the talent of the House can speak at the one time, that is one Deputy at a time? Furthermore, will he agree that there is little meaningful debate, particularly on Estimates when billions of pounds are often voted through with only cursory examination — we will see a good example of that shortly — and that there is an urgent need to revise the procedures of the House?
That is a very long question.
No, I do not agree with most of that at all.
It is disgraceful that the Taoiseach can dismiss proper supplementary questions which are meant to try to improve the procedures of this House. This is Question Time.
Has the Deputy a question?
Will the Taoiseach agree that good work can be done in this House by referring Bills, particularly Committee Stages, to Special Committees? Will he agree that if we were to do that proper facilities would have to be provided so that, the Press, radio or TV and the public have access to what happens during Committee Stage of a Bill? If we agree that it is necessary to reform our system we must start to put all these things in place now rather than face the issue further down the line with no preparation.
It is very easy to be critical and make these sort of sweeping, denigratory statements. In fact, this House has got through a major programme of legislation and is pursuing a major programme of legislation. I have no particular objection to the committee system. We have availed of that for dealing with legislation on a number of occasions. Of course, experience was not always happy. There have been occasions when a Bill has gone through the whole Committee Stage in a Special Committee and then exactly the same procedures followed here on Report Stage. That is wasteful. However, I believe legislation can on its merits be considered as to whether it should go to a special committee. I have no objection to special committees.
Rather than having no particular objection to specific committees or special committees, will the Taoiseach not agree that on the rare occasions when this House has employed special committees, for example in relation to the Judicial Separation Bill, the Child Care Bill and the Companies (No. 2) Bill, these committees have worked exceedingly well and have allowed the work to go on parallel to the work in the House proper? Secondly, they have managed, particularly in relation to social legislation to engender a degree of de-politicised debate that was extremely constructive. Rather than giving a cursory snarl, "I do not agree with that at all" the Taoiseach should acknowledge that these are serious supplementaries which should be dealt with on their merits.
The reason I dismissed shortly, so to speak, the Deputy's long rigmarole, particularly when he said this House has not changed since 1922, was that I could not possibly accept that. This House has changed considerably in my time. It has changed radically and will continue to change. I said in my reply that the appropriate place for these matters to be considered was not across the floor of the House in the form of question and answer but in the mechanism established for the purpose, namely, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the working group on Dáil reform. I have no opposition or objection to the committee procedure though sometimes it did not save time at all. On the other hand, we must not forget that the Dáil is a deliberating assembly and would still have a very important part to play in regard to most legislation.
A final supplementary.
Just one. Primarily these questions are ones for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that Question Time gives us an opportunity to question the Taoiseach about what he thinks of various aspects of Dáil reform or whatever? It is not always done in a strictly opposition sense but in an effort to try to improve on what we have. Would he agree that because all stages of legislation tend to be taken in the Chamber we do not have time for other debates or the examination of reports, for example, reports of the Committee of Public Accounts or other major issues? The fact that a Committee Stage of a Bill is taken in a different room does not mean that we are not acting as a Parliament.
I hope the Deputy accepts that during Question Time I am as helpful as possible and elaborate as much as I can in reply to questions, but sometimes the adversarial aspect exhibits itself on both sides of the House. Some members are inclined to confuse our situation with the British House of Commons. The basic difference is the large numbers they have which enable them to man a whole series of committees without any difficulty. We are a relatively small House and when you take Ministers and Junior Ministers out of the overall quantum there are not that many people available for detailed and persistent committee work. Deputies who wish to attend to all legislative matters could be placed at a disadvantage if too much work were done in committee.
Would the Taoiseach be prepared to look further at the matter in view of the fact that the question and the suggestion contained therein are designed to expedite business? Does the Taoiseach agree that the special sub-committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is not capable of dealing with the wider issue of the establishment of new committees?
I am the most forthcoming of men and am always prepared to look afresh at anything. As the Deputy knows, quite recently I looked constructively at suggestions he put forward.
