It is proposed to take Nos. 9, 10, 17, 4 and 18. It is also proposed, subject to the agreement of the House, that business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight; Nos. 9 and 10 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 17, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. and the Minister for Agriculture and Food shall be called on to conclude the debate not later than 6.45 p.m.; and No. 18 shall be taken at 8.30 p.m. Private Members' Business shall be No. 37, motion 50.
Order of Business.
Is the proposal for the late sitting tonight to 10.30 p.m. agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that Nos. 9 and 10 be decided without debate? Agreed. Are the proceedings for dealing with Second Stage of No. 17 agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that No. 18 be taken at 8.30 p.m.? Agreed.
First, I would like to welcome the ordering of No. 10 today. I think it indicates that results can be obtained. In view of the very welcome news about the Birmingham Six will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government have reached a conclusion on the recommendation in the Martin report, commissioned by the Minister for the introduction of legislation providing a similar procedure here to that in Britain for the review of miscarriages of justice? Can the Taoiseach indicate when statutory authority might be sought for the establishment of an inquiry body, as was recommended in the Martin report, in view of the great news on the Birmingham Six and the absence of similar procedures in regard to anything of that kind that might happen here?
Is legislation promised in this area?
Not exactly. Again this is a borderline case. The matter referred to by the Deputy involves major constitutional considerations. The matter is still being considered but I cannot give the Deputy any specific date at this stage.
I appreciate that and I appreciate the courtesy of the Taoiseach in making that information available to me. May I ask the Taoiseach to take a personal interest in this matter in view of the importance of ensuring that we in this country have a procedure equal to that in other countries for reviewing any mistakes that our courts may make? Would the Taoiseach agree to take a personal interest in the matter with a view to resolving any constitutional or other difficulties that exist?
Yes. The Deputy will realise of course that in the outcome of the Birmingham Six case about which we are all very happy, such a procedure was not resorted to. In fact it was followed through the Court of Appeal.
We do not have a procedure here for a court of appeal-type hearing.
One of the recommendations in the Martin report was for a separate type of body away from the courts.
We have no such——
Sorry, please let us not create a mini-Question Time now. It is not in order.
In relation to promised legislation, namely, the reform of local government, may I ask the Taoiseach if the Government parties have concluded their deliberations on that subject matter? Have Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats reached agreement on the reform of local government and, if so, can the Taoiseach name a date for the local elections?
The decisions are in the post.
This seems to be a rather infinitive matter, but we will be as courteous as possible.
This matter has been raised so many times here that the Chair has difficulty at times.
Maybe the Taoiseach wants to go away and have a little chat.
The Deputy can be fully assured — reassured if necessary — that the legislation for the reform of local government will be brought forward in due time, as promised. It will be very good legislation which will bring about a united Government version.
Refinancing of the economy.
A Government reshuffle.
That will make a change.
The Deputy can be assured that it will bring about much needed reform in the local government structure. In fact it will be merely the start of a period of local government reform extending over a number of years. It will be brought forward in time for the local elections, which will be held this year.
I would like to seek more clarification on the matter, namely, can the Taoiseach tell us if the Government have concluded the deliberations and is he now saying that the elections will not be in June of this year?
The Deputy will have to pursue it in another way.
First of all, the date of the elections is not promised legislation but I can assure the Deputy that the preparation of legislation governing reform of local government structures is well advanced.
Obviously I accept your ruling, Sir, in relation to Standing Order 30. The request I made raises the question as to what exactly can be raised and accepted under Standing Order 30. You might write to the parties indicating what issues and matters are in order.
I think I did so recently but I will be glad to do so again to clarify matters.
Thank you.
Members should read their post.
Sir, I am not denying the fact that you circulated points which indicated the basis on which Standing Order 30 requests could be adjudged, but to find out when exactly they can be accepted seems to be a grave difficulty. One would have thought this issue of the Gulf War needed to be addressed again by the Dáil. In any event, I ask you to address that issue at this point. In view of the fact that the Taoiseach has made a statement outside this House on the Gulf War, apparently supporting the land war, may I ask him if he will take an opportunity in this House this week to make his statement in the House and enable the Dáil to debate the matter, especially in view of the changes in the situation that have taken place since 19 January when this House took a decision?
It is not in order now and I should say, lest there be any misrepresentation in the matter, that the matter of the Gulf War has been raised extensively in this House recently by way of parliamentary questions and was raised on the Adjournment as recently as last Thursday evening by the Deputy himself with my permission.
I accept that. I am talking about——
The Deputy should not suggest these matters are not discussed in this House. They are discussed in this House.
I am talking about a debate in this House and a review of a decision taken by this House which cannot be dealt with adequately at Question Time.
It was taken by an overwhelming majority.
I am trying to be in order, Sir, but a number of events have taken place since we last discussed the Gulf conflict. On the occasion of our putting down questions the situation was entirely different from what it is now. Even as late as last week the progress on the UN Resolutions was not at the position it is now. In view of the fact that the Taoiseach, as Head of Government, has given in the name of the Irish people a statement pledging unequivocal support for the Allies, will he now speak in the Dáil and justify his statement?
I have already ruled on the matter, Deputy Higgins. You will have to find another way, another means of raising the matter.
A Cheann Comhairle——
It is not in order now, Deputy Higgins.
It is necessary——
That may be so.
I as an elected representative do not want my name used by the Taoiseach as giving unequivocal support to something which will lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians.
(Interruptions.)
Please, Deputy Higgins, the Taoiseach is seeking to intervene.
On a point of order, I must point out that Deputy Higgins is totally misrepresenting what I said with regard to that matter.
What is the Taoiseach's point of order?
That is my point of order.
A statement which gives unequivocal support to the UN mandate——
Deputy Higgins will now resume his seat. Deputy Howlin has been offering for some time.
This matter——
I will ask you for a second time to resume your seat, Deputy Higgins.
It is——
If I have to ask you a third time I shall have to ask you to leave the House.
A Cheann Comhairle——
If you persist in disobeying the Chair in this fashion, which is not of your nature I must say——
I am raising a point of order.
——I shall have to ask you to leave the House.
This matter——
Leave the House, please, Deputy.
I intend to stay in this House.
Then I shall have to ask that the Deputy be suspended from the service of the Dáil.
This is disgraceful.
On a point of order——
There shall be no point of order when I am dealing with gross disorder.
On a point of order, I was on my feet.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Rabbitte, you may not raise a point of order now. The Chair is dealing with a point of serious disorder.
With regret, I move: "That Deputy Michael D. Higgins be suspended from the service of the Dáil."
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 23.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Bell, Michael.
- Byrne, Eric.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- McCartan, Pat.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Howlin and Ferris.
Question declared carried.
(Interruptions.)
I think Deputy Higgins will appreciate, as a democrat, that if the decision of the House is as I announced, he will be expected to obey it.
I am very pleased to leave the House today when it will not discuss the operation of this war.
Thank you, Deputy.
Deputy Higgins withdrew from the Chamber.
I view with regret that a Member of the House has been voted out of this House because of the refusal by the House to discuss a very important matter. I would ask the Taoiseach and the Government if at some time between now and 5 o'clock on Thursday one or two hours could be found to discuss what is, in effect, a world war. I am making an appeal to the Taoiseach.
Deputy Spring appreciates that there are ways and means by which these appeals should be made. This is not the time.
Could you indicate to the House precisely what dimension of civilian casualties in the Gulf War would warrant a debate under Standing Order 30? Would it be 10,000?
I have heard your question.
What is the answer?
I will give it to you. Resume your seat. If Deputy Rabbitte had listened on the many occasions when the Chair indicated to the House what is proper at this time, he would not have to ask the question.
Answer the question. How many people must be killed?
Deputy McCartan will not address the Chair while he is seated. I would ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat. I have answered your question. The matter you raise is not in order on the Order of Business.
I am seeking information from you as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
You have asked a question and I have answered it. If the Deputy needs further information he can seek it from the Ceann Comhairle.
Is there any proportion of civilian casualties——
Resume your seat, please.
What about Iraqi atrocities in Kuwait?
——including Iraqi atrocities in Kuwait.