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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Apr 1991

Vol. 407 No. 1

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Talks.

Dick Spring

Ceist:

1 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the progress of the Brooke initiative, as outlined by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the House of Commons on 14 March 1991.

Roger T. Garland

Ceist:

2 Mr. Garland asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the form of government he feels would be appropriate in Northern Ireland to replace the direct rule from Westminister and the discussions which have taken place in this regard.

Roger T. Garland

Ceist:

3 Mr. Garland asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the Government's position in relation to revising articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution to revert to the aspirational status of Article 2; if he will make a statement on the Supreme Court judgment which renders the unification of the island a constitutional imperative rather than an aspiration; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Bernard Allen

Ceist:

4 Mr. Allen asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the up to date position of the Brooke initiative.

Jim O'Keeffe

Ceist:

5 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Taoiseach his proposals, if any, to involve political parties in the State on the Brooke initiative talks; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Peter Barry

Ceist:

6 Mr. Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will include members of the Opposition in the proposed talks on the future of Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Dick Spring

Ceist:

7 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the members of the Irish Government delegation to any talks arising from the Brooke initiative.

Dick Spring

Ceist:

8 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will outline his proposals for the consultation with Opposition leaders in the State in the course of the talks arising from the Brooke initiative.

Dick Spring

Ceist:

9 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he has given any assurances to any other political party in the Republic that they will be involved in the negotiations arising from the Brooke initiative; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Dick Spring

Ceist:

10 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will outline his views on the suggestion by the two Unionist leaders in Northern Ireland that all political parties in the Republic should be involved in the talks arising from the Brooke initiative at a certain point; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

11 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the Government's position on the statement made in the House of Commons on 26 March 1991 regarding the proposed talks on political progress in Northern Ireland.

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

12 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the composition of the Irish delegation for the second phase of the proposed talks on political progress in Northern Ireland; if he has any plans to hold discussions with the leaders of the Opposition parties regarding the talks; the way in which he proposes to enable Opposition parties in Dáil Éireann to make a contribution to the process; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

13 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he intends to discuss reform of the Constitution during the dialogue with the British Government and Northern Ireland parties in the second phase of the Brooke talks; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Austin Deasy

Ceist:

14 Mr. Deasy asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the political groups in Northern Ireland who are scheduled to take part in the talks based on the Brooke initiative.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 14 together.

Following the statement by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the House of Commons on 14 March, I conveyed to the British Prime Minister the Irish Government's full acceptance of the formula for the substantive talks and our profound hope that the talks would get under way and proceed to a successful conclusion. On 26 March, the Secretary of State informed the House of Commons that, following extensive discussions with the main constitutional political parties in Northern Ireland — the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland, the Social Democratic and Labour Party, the Ulster Democratic Unionist Party and the Ulster Unionist Party — and with the Irish Government, a basis for formal political talks now existed. I wish to avail of this opportunity to pay tribute in the House to the personal qualities of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Brooke, and also the combination of realism and vision displayed by the political leaders in Northern Ireland.

The Government are encouraged by these developments and regard them as providing an historic opportunity for both traditions on this island, to achieve peace, justice and prosperity for all the people. The talks will deal with all the relationships involved and this shared appreciation of the nature and scope of the exercise undoubtedly helps to strengthen the prospects of a positive outcome. As the Government have already made clear, they look forward to a substantive and vibrant dialogue with Northern political leaders. With goodwill and a constructive approach all round, there is potential for a major move forward in our relationship. The Government look forward to contributing to the realisation of this potential and also to the further improvement in Irish-British relations that would inevitably be associated with such an outcome.

I wish to reiterate the Government's hope that the sense of a new beginning will help to signal the end of the strife and human suffering that have bedevilled Northern Ireland for so long. With the political process now offering the opportunity of a new way forward, the futility and irrelevance of violence must increasingly be apparent and the permanent cessation of support for campaigns of violence must surely now be considered by all those who wish to participate in the building of a new, agreed Ireland.

The talks process was considered at the meeting of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference in Belfast last week at which the Government were represented by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Justice. Both sides agreed that the Conference would meet again on 26 April after which the gap in Conference meetings would begin. The Conference noted that it was expected that talks would commence by the end of April.

Deputies will appreciate that, given the extremely sensitive nature of the process now being embarked on, it would be premature and inappropriate to indicate now the position to be taken by the Government in the talks. I have indicated on a number of occasions that it will be open to any party to the talks to raise any germane matter they wish. As soon as I am in a position to report to the House, I will do so. This is the normal procedure for enabling members of the Opposition to comment on Government policies. The composition of the Government's delegation is a matter for the Government who will decide on it at the appropriate time, in the light of the general structure of the talks decided upon.

I am sure the Taoiseach will find agreement to his own sentiments welcoming the opportunity which now presents itself on this island in relation to the talks which are about to commence at the end of this month. May I seek some clarification from the Taoiseach, first, in relation to the composition of the Government negotiating team on which there has been an unseemly row in the newspapers over the past number of weeks? I would have thought the Taoiseach owed it to this House today to clarify the composition of the Government team. Secondly, may I remind the Taoiseach that it was consistently his view in the run-up to the Anglo-Irish Agreement and in the process of the New Ireland Forum that the only way of making progress in relation to Northern Ireland was through the medium of an all-party all-Ireland constitutional conference? Has the Taoiseach now some reason for going away from that concept? He is obviously saying today that there is no role for the Opposition parties in this House in the course of those negotiations, but can I say to the Taoiseach——

Sorry, Deputy Spring, there are a lot of questions tabled to the Taoiseach today. Deputies are anxious that their questions would be answered. There are 14 questions being replied to presently and the Chair does desire, and think it essential, that we have brevity.

I certainly will co-operate. I would remind you that there are five questions in my name. Would the Taoiseach not consider it more appropriate now, as there is much talk about an agreement being reached between the communities on this island, that the Opposition parties here in the South should be represented at those negotiations; otherwise the Taoiseach and his colleagues may arrive back to this House with an agreement and force us to make a judgment——

Deputy Spring has made his point adequately.

——on an agreement to which we would have no input.

I said in my reply that the composition of the Government delegation will be decided upon by the Government and announced in due course. It is early days yet to decide on the exact composition of such a delegation because the final structure of the talks and the number of persons participating from the different parties has not yet been decided. I do not think there is any need for me at this stage to anticipate the structure of the Government delegation, and I would hope that the Deputy would not be attempting to muddy the waters in that respect.

The Taoiseach's colleagues are muddying the waters.

With regard to an allround constitutional conference, that is still my view. It is not in any way exclusive to this process. In due course, arising out of this process of dialogue, such an allround constitutional conference might be a natural sequel. Finally, I think it would be entirely inappropriate and unprecedented to have the parties in this State participating in the talks at this stage. The parties to this process of dialogue are quite clear: they are two sovereign Governments on the one hand and the constitutional political parties in Northern Ireland on the other. The British Government will conduct the talks on behalf of the British Government. I do not anticipate that they would attempt to bring Opposition parties along as part of their delegation. The Irish Government will conduct the talks on behalf of the Irish Government, and the different political parties in Northern Ireland will conduct the talks on their own behalf. Anything else would not be appropriate nor, indeed, would it be very practicable.

I directed two very specific questions to the Taoiseach today and I note he has not replied specifically to them. However, I accept that in the times in which we live, with the Brooke initiative about to be debated, perhaps it is not appropriate for the Taoiseach to answer these questions in detail, so I will not press him further. I would, however, ask him to give serious consideration to allowing members of the Opposition parties to accompany the delegation to London or wherever the talks may be. In this unprecedented situation it would be a magnanimous gesture on the part of the Taoiseach. This should not be a party issue. It is something on which we should all reach agreement and show magnanimity——

Let us avoid making statements.

I want to assure the Deputy I have no wish to exclude the parties in this House from the political process in any way. It is my intention that they will be, in some way yet to be decided, fully informed and to the greatest extent involved. That is only commonsense. I would point out to the Deputy that in the course of the discussions on the Anglo-Irish Agreement the negotiations then were conducted exclusively by the Government and the political parties were not involved until it came to the role of this House in either accepting or rejecting that agreement.

With regard to the actual construction of the dialogue process I do not believe it would be practical to depart from the position I have outlined. After all, this is a major policy matter. So far these talks have been conducted by the Government and they have been brought to this stage successfully by the Government conducting the talks. To the greatest extent possible this House was kept informed, and that is the practical and sensible way to proceed. At no stage will there be any attempt on the part of the Government to exclude this House, or the political parties, from the fullest possible information and involvement.

Will the Taoiseach give an assurance that as regards the apparent barriers about where the talks will be held he will be flexible and will meet the Northern Ireland leaders anywhere they choose once the talks commence? Can he give an assurance that the venue will not be a barrier?

There are different Northern Ireland leaders and the Deputy should not assume that they will all be of the one mind as to where the talks should take place. I am always interested to find Deputies on the opposite side of the House appealing to me to be flexible. Nobody in this process so far has been more flexible than the Irish Government. I do not mind saying at this stage that were it not for our flexibility we would not have arrived at this successful stage. We have overcome a lot of technical, procedural and other kinds of difficulties so far, and I am sure we will overcome whatever others may arise in future.

May I ask the Taoiseach if a commitment was given to the Progressive Democrats, as claimed by one of their spokesmen, that they would be separately represented at these talks? Secondly, will the Taoiseach confirm to the House that, as far as he is concerned, during the course of these talks everything is on the table, including the possibility of constitutional change?

In answer to the first question, the Government will conduct their business in their own way. The Government deputation will be decided by the Government and not by political parties.

That is not what I asked.

The Government delegation will be decided by the Government, and I do not intend to go any further into that matter.

The Taoiseach is not replying to my question.

I have said on a number of occasions that the talks up to this stage have been conducted by the Government under my personal direction and with the able assistance of Deputy Gerry Collins and Deputy Ray Burke. From here on the Government will appoint their own team in these negotiations.

With no Progressive Democrats?

It will be a Government delegation. Deputies are protesting that this is a very serious and major matter. I do not see why Deputies should be trying to stir up some little political party difference. Is that what they are at?

Why was the claim made?

(Interruptions.)

The simple position is that the Government will conduct these talks by their own Government delegation.

Question No. 6, Deputy Peter Barry's question.

I did not get a reply to my second question.

The second part of the question was answered in my major reply to the effect that I have indicated on a number of occasions that it will be open to any party to the talks to raise any germane matter they wish.

Everything is on the table?

First, I agree fully with what the Taoiseach said that it is the wish of everybody in this House and, indeed, on this island that there will be a successful conclusion to the talks that are now commencing. I want to assure the Taoiseach that nothing I or, I am sure, any Member of the Opposition says will in any way be designed to trip up the Taoiseach or the Government in their negotiations.

Thank you.

As regards my question about the involvement of the Opposition parties, this was prompted by a very clear statement by a member of the Progressive Democrats who said that Deputy O'Malley, Minister for Industry and Commerce, had been given an assurance that the Progressive Democrats, as opposed to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, would be involved in the talks. If political parties are to be involved it is quite reasonable that other political parties in this House should also ask to be involved.

Having put down the question and then seeing the same idea being put forward by Dr. Paisley on the following day made me feel a little like Mr. de Valera with regard to The Irish Times, I began to examine my conscience. However, the Progressive Democrats have clearly said they had been given an undertaking that the party as opposed to the Minister will be involved. I fully recognise the Government's right to decide what their own membership should be but not if the political parties are to be involved. There is a difference.

The question is becoming over-wieldy and over-long.

I want to say one other thing in response to a point and ask a question. The Taoiseach drew the analogy with the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the fact that political parties were not involved in that, but that is not correct. The Anglo-Irish Agreement flowed from the New Ireland Forum in which all parties were involved.

I would dissuade the Deputy from making statements of this kind.

The agreement was negotiated between Governments and no parties North or South were involved. The Taoiseach has given an undertaking that whatever agreement is reached will be brought back to this House. Will he accept the proposition that whatever is agreed should be put to referenda to take place on the same day in both parts of this island?

The latter proposition has been put forward. I am not sure that at this stage I would go that far but I am certainly not ruling it out. There are various ways in which we can have agreements of that kind accepted on as broad a base as possible. I do not want to go over old ground but I would disagree with Deputy Barry that the Anglo-Irish Agreement process flowed from the New Ireland Forum. We all remember the famous occasion when the New Ireland Forum report was put out in London. I am not sure that that is an historically accurate reference, but I do not think we need argue about that. I see now the reason Deputy Barry, and his colleagues, are raising this matter. It is not correct for anybody to say that I undertook that any party as such would be involved in the talks. The position is that the Government team will be a Government team and not a party team.

Was Mr. Pat Cox incorrect in what he said?

Order, I am calling Deputy Proinsias De Rossa. I will call Deputy Spring again and I also propose to call Deputy Currie.

The Taoiseach was about to reply to me when you spoke, a Cheann Comhairle, and I would like to hear what he has to say. I asked him if Deputy Cox was not right when he asserted that the Progressive Democrats had been given an undertaking that they would be involved in the talks.

He is not a Deputy yet.

He is not Deputy Cox anyway.

He thinks he is.

I have given the position, and anybody who indicated any other position is not correct.

I would like to ask the Taoiseach some supplementaries relating to Question Nos. 11, 12 and 13 in my name. I do not think anybody in this House under-estimates the significance of the stage we have reached with regard to the negotiations about Northern Ireland. Indeed, all the parties involved, including the Irish Government, deserve all credit for bringing matters this far, and that needs to be said in this House. I wish to ask the Taoiseach, bearing in mind his statement that any party to the talks may raise matters that are germane, if he proposes to raise questions with regard to the Irish Constitution or to make offers with regard to the Irish Constitution, particularly in relation to Articles 2 and 3? Will he also clarify the reference in his initial statement in the House today with regard to the cessation of violence as I am not sure if I heard him correctly? Will he repeat the part where he seemed to be implying that if those now engaged in violence cease they may be involved? Perhaps he will clarify this because there is a very real risk at the moment, which has been evident over the last few days, that the terror veto is being exercised by the Provisionals and the UVF——

I again appeal for brevity.

We cannot allow that to gain currency. The Taoiseach said he will consult the Opposition parties in the House but that the mode of consultation has not yet been decided. Will he meet the other party leaders and me to discuss how that process can be put in place?

I will be glad to again read what I said about violence. With the political process now offering the opportunity of a new way forward, the futility and irrelevance of violence must increasingly be apparent and the permanent cessation of support for campaigns of violence must surely now be considered by all those who wish to participate in the building of a new, agreed Ireland. That is common sense and self-evident.

I do not think the Deputy should be seeking information at this stage about the specific proposals which the Government will put forward. The first thing is to have exploratory talks; the idea is that everybody will state their position and we will then see the requirements, priorities and wishes of the different participants. We can then see how we can best discuss these issues and perhaps — I hope — reach agreement on them. I always said that we would hope to be forthcoming and oncoming and I am sure that, as the talks proceed, we will have our own imaginative ideas to put forward. The Deputy, I am sure, knows my view that if we can come up with some new type of arrangement covering the island as a whole it would certainly require a new Constitution, or an amendment to the present one. These matters will all face us in the future and I would not like to be committed to a particular stance in regard to any issue at this stage.

I congratulate all the parties who have managed to reach the conference table and I wish them all the best for speedy success. Will the Taoiseach accept my personal experience that, as a result of recent murders by extremists on both sides, fear stalks the land in a way that has not been the case since the mid-seventies? Therefore, all Members of this House have a responsibility to be extremely careful in regard to what they say and do. Whatever the eventual outcome in terms of an agreement reached about the existence of two states on this island, a unitary state, a federal state or a confederal state, will the Taoiseach accept that the existence of an administration in Northern Ireland is central to all of them, where the two sections of the community can work together because it is only by working together that reconciliation will be brought about?

I am sorry I was not present for the earlier discussion and I understand that the Taoiseach turned down the request to have other parties involved. Will the Taoiseach rethink his position in view of the fact that history tells us that the Treaty was not so bad? Sunningdale fell because of lack of co-operation and the complaint in relation to the Anglo-Irish Agreement is that people were not consulted. Any settlement which will meet with the approval of all the political parties should come about by means of an input by all the constitutional political parties on both sides of the Border. Bearing in mind that the Unionist leadership have requested this, will the Taoiseach agree that an involvement of all the political parties in Dáil Éireann would be a wise move on his part?

I have already dealt with that.

Is the Taoiseach dismissing the lessons of history?

This should not lead to argument.

I am a student of history and I hope I will always learn its lessons.

I will hear a final question from Deputy Spring on this series of questions. There are a large number of other questions to the Taoiseach and the Chair is very anxious to dispose of them.

Thank you, I will be brief. I reject the suggestion by the Taoiseach that the Opposition parties are trying to muddy the waters in relation to these talks.

I withdraw the remark.

I am glad the Taoiseach has withdrawn the remark because the problem is not in the Opposition parties, it is within the components of Government. We will take these talks seriously——

There is no problem in Government.

Perhaps the Taoiseach should contact us more often as we have to rely on what we read in the newspapers. I am glad to hear that but it would have been better if the team for the negotiations had been announced today because plenty of notice was given. As Deputy Harte said, we must learn from the mistakes of the past. The Taoiseach said that we may be facing into an agreement with constitutional implications; will he again consider the question of the Opposition parties being involved? I am sure the Taoiseach is aware of the call from the Unionist leadership in Northern Ireland for the involvement of the Opposition parties down here. Does he give any credence to that suggestion?

We are now having quite an element of repetition.

I have dealt with all these matters. However, I reiterate that the parties in this House will be fully informed and involved, which is what this House is for. It is the Government's duty as the Executive to conduct all types of negotiations of this kind, subject always to the authority of this House, to their duty to report to this House and to having their decisions in negotiations accepted or rejected by this House. There will be no departure from that normal and correct precedent. It is a different matter to organise a process of dialogue and talks on a tripartite basis and I am absolutely clear in my own mind that, apart from the proper constitutional and parliamentary precedent, the right way to proceed on this occasion is for the Government to conduct the talks on this side, the British Government to do it on their side and the political parties in the North to conduct it on their side, the difference being that they do not have a Government to speak on their behalf. That is why all the parties in the North of Ireland must be included, there is no Executive to speak for them. That is the sensible logical and practical way to proceed.

It will be very difficult, in any event, to structure these talks with the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland as they all have different agendas and priorities with the British Government and ourselves. To add another layer of parliamentary participation — valuable though it might be—would impede the whole process. It also raises the question that if the political Opposition parties in this State accompany the Irish Government, should the political parties in Great Britain not accompany the British Government? Whatever about the next phase — and I am sure there will be one — at this stage we should stick to the established procedure and precedent that, where there are Governments, they negotiate on behalf of the people in their jurisdictions and that where there are no Governments the political parties negotiate on behalf of their people, we will see where we go from there.

I am calling Question No. 15 in the name of Deputy Spring.

(Limerick East): I did not get a chance to ask a question.

I know that, Deputy Noonan. We had many questions to deal with and I thought that the Chair was very fair in the manner in which he allocated the questions. I am now proceeding to deal with another question.

I am asking the Taoiseach to reply to questions he missed in my supplementary.

I will hear both Deputies if they will be very brief.

Would the Taoiseach reply to my request that he would meet with me and the other party leaders to consider how a consultation could be established?

I have no objection to that, and if it appears useful from time to time that will certainly be done.

(Limerick East): Is it the view of the Government that the stepping up of the murder campaign by the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland is intended to subvert the Brooke initiative? If agreement is reached by the parties in Northern Ireland and between the two sovereign Governments, and if the agreement is subsequently endorsed by referendum in the two parts of the island, would the Taoiseach not consider that it is time to clearly signal to the Provisional IRA that the will of the people will not be subverted and that the Government are prepared to take any step, as his predecessors were, including internment, to ensure that the Provisional IRA will not subvert this initiative? We seem to be pitched now to lead to a significant breakthrough.

We have brought the initiative this far successfully in spite of a continuing campaign of violence and that is the way we would intend to proceed. I do not think that we need a Brooke initiative or anything arising out of that to undermine and negate the campaign of violence. It stands condemned on its own values. As I said in my main reply, if we can, through this process, move everything forward to a more satisfactory stage from everybody's point of view, then the futility of violence in so far as it has any relevance at all will become totally irrelevant.

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