Request to Move Adjournment of Dáil under Standing Order 30.

Mr. Taylor

In accordance with Standing Order 30, I request leave to move the Adjournment of the Dáil to discuss the matter, that this House demands a public sworn judicial inquiry into the many allegations made in the "World in Action" programme shown on Monday, 13 May 1991 about the management of the affairs of Anglo-Irish Meat Processors and in particular about the allegation of political collusion arising from the "World in Action" investigations.

That was the matter I submitted to you under Standing Order 30.

An Ceann Comhairle

I now call on Deputy John Bruton to put his question.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to request consideration under Standing Order 30 of a motion requiring that a judicial public inquiry be carried out into allegations in the "World in Action" programme in respect of the activities of the Goodman Group, in view of the damage done to this country by this situation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Having considered the matters fully, I do not consider them to be contemplated by Standing Order 30 and, therefore, I cannot grant leave to move the motion.

Mr. McCartan

What relevant device is left to us as you, Sir, have refused all three options?

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order, Sir——

Mr. Taylor

I had submitted the matter first.

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order, Sir, I think it is unproductive for the House to become involved in a dispute with the Chair and I wish to ask if the Government are prepared to make a clear and full statement to this House on this matter and are prepared to take their responsibilities in this matter seriously.

Mr. Farrelly

Do not point the finger at me; you are the Minister and the buck stops at the Minister's desk.

Mr. Taylor

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, I submit that your decision here, Sir, that this is not a matter needing the urgent consideration of the House can be compared only — and I say this with respect to you — with your decision some time ago when I tried to raise the matter of the impending troubles of the journalist Mr. Barzoft in Iraq when you Sir, told me in reply that the matter was not urgent and he was hanged at 6 o'clock the next morning.

This matter throws into question the whole trading viability of Ireland. How can you, Sir, consider that this is not a matter of the utmost urgency when every hour that goes by throws our trading in this area into question? What more urgent matter could there possibly be?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Taylor, please desist. The subject matter raised by you and Deputy Bruton has to be regarded as ongoing——

Mr. Taylor

Do not be ridiculous.

Mr. Howlin

That is nonsense.

An Ceann Comhairle

——and cannot be regarded as having arisen suddenly——

Mr. Quinn

Sir, did you or did you not see the television programme? If you saw it, Sir you could not possibly——

An Ceann Comhairle

——or is likely to develop significantly before the Dáil will, in practice, have an opportunity of discussing it.

A Deputy

I sincerely hope it does not.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, allow the Chair to make his point.

Mr. Quinn

Sir, do not make a nonsense of yourself.

Mr. Rabbitte

Everybody in the country thinks it is an urgent and important matter except the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

I believe the matter is so vast and wide ranging——

Mr. Quinn

Did you write that, Sir? You could not have possibly seen the programme to write that rubbish.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am my own man in this Chair, Deputy Quinn.

Mr. Quinn

Prove it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will prove it any time you like.

Mr. Howlin

Now.

Mr. Quinn

Sir, you have refused any legitimate opportunity to raise this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do not try to shout me down, Deputy.

Mr. Quinn

Sir, you have refused us every opportunity to raise this matter. I put down a Private Notice Question, I tried to raise it on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter is so vast and wide ranging that in my opinion it can be raised properly by a substantive motion in this House.

Mr. Howlin

This is nonsense.

Mr. Rabbitte

Sir, we have put down a Private Notice Question, we have sought to raise the matter on the Adjournment and now under Standing Order 30 and all three have been ruled out by you. What alternative method is open to us, Sir?

The Taoiseach

This matter has been before this House on a number of occasions. I have answered questions at great length with regard to it.

Mr. Quinn

Not so.

Mr. McCartan

The Minister for Agriculture and Food has covered up every time.

Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. O'Kennedy)

I insist that remark be withdrawn.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Withdraw that remark — it is a disgrace. I am not going to have that on the record.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. The Taoiseach is in possession.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I did not cover up anything. I never did and never will.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is going on under your nose.

Mr. McCartan

Everybody in the Department knows about it but, Minister, you do not want to know. I have the evidence and we will produce it.

The Taoiseach

What I said, a Cheann Comhairle, was that the affairs of this company have been before this House on a number of occasions and have been debated at length. I know that you will agree with me, a Cheann Comhairle, when I say that Deputies opposite who are interested in the matter have a variety of ways in which to raise it——

Mr. McCartan

Cover up.

The Taoiseach

——and I want to assure the House that if they avail of any of these methods the Government will respond fully and adequately.

Mr. McCartan

Give us Government time. Will the Taoiseach allow time to debate the matter?

Mr. J. Bruton

In view of what the Taoiseach has said, will the Government provide time today to debate this subject in Government time?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am bringing this matter to finality.

Mr. Taylor

Does the Taoiseach suggest in any reasonable manner that a new urgent situation has not arisen as a result of that programme last night? To say that the matter is ongoing in the same way now as it was for weeks and months past makes no sense in reason or in logic, and the Taoiseach knows that. In fact, the Taoiseach was mentioned in the programme and he should ensure in his own interest that we have a full debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, we may not debate the matter now. I am going on to the Order of Business proper.

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order, the Taoiseach was allowed to make a statement and if I may——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Bruton successively here.

Mr. Spring

Sir, as you have not seen fit to allow us to debate this matter under Standing Order 30, as the Taoiseach does not seem to want to give Government time, I want to offer one hour of the Labour Party's Private Members' time to allow time this evening for this matter to be discussed.

This matter has very serious implications for people both inside and outside this House and in a major industry. I believe we should be discussing the issue today and not running away from it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That will be a matter for the Whips.

Mr. J. Bruton

Sir, may I ask the Taoiseach if the Government will provide the time today to debate this issue?

Mr. Howlin

The time is available.

The Taoiseach

I have already indicated that if the Deputies opposite avail of the many different procedures open to them to raise this matter the Government will be very happy to facilitate them in any way and, as I have said——

Mr. Enright

I take it, Taoiseach you are refusing the request?

The Taoiseach

——to respond fully to any matters which may be raised.

Mr. Spring

Do I take it the Taoiseach is accepting our offer of one hour this evening?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling the Order of Business, Deputies.

An Ceann Comhairle

I can see no solution to this matter.

Mr. Spring

May I take it from what the Taoiseach is saying that he will accept my offer of time during Private Members' time this evening to discuss the matter urgently?

The Taoiseach

I am not aware that that is feasible and I do not believe that this is the way to deal with the matter. I am inviting the Deputies opposite to avail of the procedures of this House to raise this matter again.

A Deputy

What procedures?

The Taoiseach

I am inviting the Deputies to raise this matter again through those procedures as indeed it has been raised on several previous occasions.

Mr. McCartan

Stop the cover up.

The Taoiseach

If this is done I can assure Deputies that the Government will facilitate them in every way to deal with the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest that this matter be discussed by the Whips.

Mr. Quinn

The Government have only to say they agree and we can work out the details. We are asking for one hour——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 5 and 12. It is also proposed that No. 5 shall be decided without debate. Private Members' Business shall be No. 23.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach is attempting to evade his responsibilities. This is absolutely outrageous.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order——

Mr. Rabbitte

We are entitled to debate this matter.

Mr. Quinn

We are offering one hour of our time tonight in response to the Taoiseach's request. The Government are not prepared to offer time to debate this matter. They have three hours to prepare a response to the matter. Over ten million people saw this programme last night, including foreigners on whose trade we depend. The Government and the Taoiseach must give us an opportunity to refute what was said——

An Ceann Comhairle

There are many procedures for dealing with this matter in the House. Let us do it in an orderly fashion.

Mr. Quinn

Why will the Taoiseach not say yes? Unless they are hiding something, there is no reason——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputies. It is proposed to take Nos. 5 and 12. It is also proposed that No. 5 shall be decided without debate.

Mr. Quinn

We are offering one hour of Private Members' time tonight to discuss this business so that the Minister for Agriculture and Food can explain the position. All we are asking for is one hour tonight to debate this issue.

Mr. Rabbitte

If the movers of the Private Members' Bill are prepared to make time available tonight to discuss this matter why cannot it be agreed to in the House now?

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order——

Mr. Quinn

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has been on his feet for a long time now.

Mr. Quinn

I want to raise a final point. May I, on behalf of all of the Members of this House, ask the Taoiseach if he will formally accept or reject the offer of the Leader of the Labour Party to provide one hour of Private Members' time tonight so that we can discuss this matter? Yes or no?

The Taoiseach

It is not open to me to do that.

Mr. Quinn

It is.

The Taoiseach

It seems to me that Deputy Quinn in particular is trying to substitute shouting and barracking for order in this House.

Mr. Enright

There is disorder throughout the meat trade.

The Taoiseach

I want to repeat that the affairs of this company have been debated here on a number of occasions and there is nothing to prevent them being debated again. I am inviting the Deputies opposite to avail of the normal procedures of the House——

Mr. Spring

And be turned down again like we were today.

The Taoiseach

——through the Whips or in any other way they wish, to raise this matter. The Government will facilitate a full response to this issue.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order——

Mr. Taylor

On a point of order, I wish to make a proposal.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am bringing this matter to finality.

Mr. J. Bruton

On the Order of Business——

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

Here comes Polonius behind the arras.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I ask the Taoiseach if the Government will be seeking time to introduce a motion to establish a judicial inquiry into the allegations made in respect of the Goodman Group and, if not, why not?

The Taoiseach

There is no such proposal.

Mr. J. Bruton

Surely matters of this seriousness——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Bruton, let us get back to the business of this House in an orderly fashion.

Mr. McCartan

On a point of order——

Mr. Taylor

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will hear Deputy Mervyn Taylor.

Mr. Taylor

I move: "That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Standing Orders of the House, the Goodman affair be debated in the House from 7 p.m. to 8 p.m. this evening."

Mr. Rabbitte

Agreed.

Mr. Taylor

I ask you to formally put that motion, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have had no notice of such a motion, Deputy. I call Deputy McCartan.

Mr. McCartan

On Thursday last, with 15 minutes notice, the House gave the Minister for the Environment 25 minutes to wind up a debate by way of a motion which had not previously been provided for. Therefore, it is not open to the Taoiseach to suggest that this is not a matter for him. If the Whips and this House agrees, we can order our business accordingly. There is nothing to stop the Government Whip signalling agreement now to take this debate at 7 p.m. this evening, with the kind permission of the Labour Party who will make the time available.

The Taoiseach

I want to make it clear to Deputy McCartan that the Government order the business in this House.

Mr. McCartan

I am challenging the Taoiseach's suggestion that he has nothing to do with the business.

The Taoiseach

The Deputies opposite are making the case that this is a very serious and far reaching matter.

Mr. Cotter

Is it not?

The Taoiseach

If so, I do not believe they should be seeking to rush it through the House this evening, which is what they are doing.

Mr. Howlin

We were called back from our holidays to discuss the matter.

The Taoiseach

There are procedures of this House available to the Deputies and the Government will respond fully to any proper use of those procedures.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order——

Mr. Spring

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not going to sit here all day listening to interminable points of order.

Mr. Spring

May I ask the Taoiseach to which procedure he is referring? A matter under Standing Order 30 has been put in, Special Notice Questions have been put in and Matters on the Adjournment have been put in. I do not know of any other procedure. What is the Taoiseach suggesting?

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggested earlier that the Whips should discuss the matter.

The Taoiseach

The Opposition Parties were falling over themselves to get a debate on the Local Government Bill but now, because some other issue has come up, they want to throw that aside.

Mr. Howlin

This is an important matter.

The Taoiseach

I do not believe that the procedures of this House should be dictated to by a television programme on——

Mr. J. Mitchell

You are covering up.

The Taoiseach

——the motives of which I have the gravest doubts.

Mr. Howlin

The Taoiseach is running from the issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton, I have to say that your amendment is not in order.

Mr. Taylor

May I ask you to put our motion to the House——

An Ceann Comhairle

Unless the——

Mr. Taylor

It is a valid motion and provides that notwithstanding anything to the contrary in Standing Orders——

An Ceann Comhairle

In reply to Deputy Bruton, Deputy Taylor and Deputy Spring in regard to the utilisation of time, a Private Member may not move such a motion which concerns Government time.

Mr. Quinn

We are talking about Private Members' time.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest that the Whips get together on that.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order——

Mr. J. Bruton

Would the Taoiseach consider that the Government and, in particular the Taoiseach have an interest in having these allegations cleared up quickly and that it is in his interest that there should be a debate on this subject immediately, initiated by the Government showing that they are prepared to respond quickly in matters of this kind?

The Taoiseach

That is a despicable suggestion——

The Taoiseach

——and I reject it. I have dealt at great length with the affairs of this company at Question Time. The matter has been debated from time to time here in the House. The matter can be debated again any time in the House, but it will certainly not be debated on the basis that I have anything to answer for.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is important to make the point that the former employees of this company have never before made statements like those made on the programme last night.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have done my best to convey my——

Mr. Rabbitte

This is new material and has not been discussed in the House before.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, resume your seat, please.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is it not the case——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Bruton, I am on my feet. I have done my best to make the House realise that in the opinion of the Chair, the motion is of wide ranging and great importance——

Mr. S. Barrett

That is correct.

An Ceann Comhairle

——and is deserving of a substantive motion being tabled in this House. I do not know of any other way of dealing properly with the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

I will table a motion on this matter immediately if the Government give an assurance that they will give Government time to debate it today.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask that you have regard to that fundamental fact and the Chair will be anxious to facilitate you.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order——

Mr. Taylor

Private Members Time——

Mr. McCartan

On a point of order, I want to draw your attention to Standing Orders——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter on a point of order.

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order, on this side of the House all we wish to do is have the issues resolved. New issues arose yesterday evening — I am coming to the point of order now. The Chair is quite correct in saying that matters relating to this company have been debated previously. I do not disagree with the Chair saying that. The point is, and I do not know whether the Chair saw the programme last evening, new issues containing major allegations arose. It is in the interests of democracy in this House that those matters that are being discussed throughout the length and breadth of this country and in Europe be debated in this House. To muzzle this House is to bring it into disrepute. I know that is not the Chair's intention and I am not suggesting it is. I am merely suggesting the Chair may not appreciate the urgency of the motion under Standing Order 30, if the Chair did not have the opportunity of seeing the programme.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair fully understands his obligations to this House and to the country.

Mr. McCartan

A Cheann Comhairle——

Mr. Spring

I, too, would point out that the Chair has discretion in relation to the motion moved by Deputy Taylor. The Chair should put that motion to the House. The Chair can under Standing Order No. 143 (2)——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter which should first be discussed by the Whips.

Mr. Spring

I would draw Standing Order 143 (2) to the attention of the Chair. It states:

Provided that in cases of urgent necessity, of which the Ceann Comhairle shall be the judge, any Standing Order or Orders may be suspended upon motion made without notice.

We are complying with that, and that motion should be put to this House.

The Taoiseach

I object to the suggestion that this Government are endeavouring to muzzle this House.

The Taoiseach

I am speaking categorically. The affairs of this company have been debated here on countless occasions. They can be again. The Government have no wish to prevent any discussion on them. If the matter is of such importance as the Deputies think it is, we should consider how it can properly be brought before the House. That I am prepared to do.

A Deputy

Today?

The Taoiseach

There is no need to do it today. The company will not go away. The tapes of the programme are still there.

The Taoiseach

There is no reason to ride roughshod over the procedures of the House.

Mr. Quinn

We are offering our time.

The Taoiseach

This House has the procedures and the mechanism to deal with this or any other matter. I am inviting the House to avail of those procedures.

Mr. Howlin

When?

The Taoiseach

I am undertaking that the Government will facilitate——

Mr. Howlin

When?

The Taoiseach

——and fully respond. Again, I object——

Deputies

When?

The Taoiseach

——Deputy Bruton, to your accusations, and if necessary I will begin to reply in time.

Mr. Howlin

When?

Mr. J. Bruton

I have nothing to fear from the Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Bruton.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach should recognise that the Government have a responsibility to respond to allegations——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding with the Order of Business now.

Mr. J. Bruton

——of this kind. It is not a matter that should be left——

Mr. Stagg

You have a motion before you, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, Sir.

Mr. Quinn

We are offering one hour of our time tonight. We are not asking for Government time.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the House does not come to order now, I have no alternative but to adjourn the sitting.

Mr. Quinn

We are seeking in an orderly way to——

Mr. Stagg

There is a motion before you.

Mr. Rabbitte

The motion is properly before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I propose to adjourn the proceedings for a quarter of an hour.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand there is a desire to have this matter discussed for some time in Private Members' time this evening. That is a matter I am naturally anxious to consider but I must advise the House that the position I find myself in is that no Private Member may move a motion in Government time and the motion you desire will therefore have to be moved when we come to deal with Private Members' Business this evening at 7 o'clock. I will be glad to entertain the suggestion then, but only then.

Mr. Spring

I am very grateful for your suggestion and I would serve notice to the Taoiseach and to the Government that at 7 o'clock this evening I shall move a motion to that effect.

The Taoiseach

I have a suggestion to make to the House. These matters are far-reaching and of importance, and I believe that the Government are entitled to some time to prepare the fullest possible information for the House. I did not see the programme myself; I try to avoid programmes of that kind.

Mr. McCartan

I can see why.

The Taoiseach

I understand the programme ranged over EC matters, customs matters, financial matters and various other matters, so I believe it would be only commonsense that the Government would have time to prepare as full as possible a brief on these matters for the House. My suggestion is that the Government would be prepared to make a limited amount of Government time available tomorrow which, if necessary, could be added to Private Members' time, and the Whips could meet to see how best that can be arranged.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 14 May 1991

A Deputy

A Deputy

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 May 1991