Vol. 408 No. 4
4 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach his views on whether there should be a general provision in regard to human rights in the treaty governing the EC and that the EC, as such, should adhere to the European Convention on Human Rights; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
This matter has arisen in the Inter Governmental Conference on Political Union. The Presidency has recently proposed that the new Treaty should say that the EC shall respect fundamental rights and freedoms as recognised in the constitutions and laws of the member states and in the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. As was the case in 1983 and 1986 when a similar proposal came up before, the member states have not reached agreement on the issues which are highly complex and of fundamental importance. While we support the Presidency suggestion, in principle, we await consideration by the inter governmental conference of the specific proposal.
Will the Taoiseach agree that I could have got that information from the newspapers, in the sense that we have a very good news service which tells us the positions of other governments? I wanted to know the position of the Irish Government.
If any.
We favour the proposal in principle. It is doubtful as to whether or not any such proposals have any great value, apart from a theoretical value, because all the twelve member states individually signed and subscribe to the European Convention. There is not much point in the Community further subscribing to the convention, but if that is the wish of most member states, we have no particular objection.
Is the Taoiseach aware that there is a difference in the jurisprudential status of the Treaty of Rome and any amendments to it, which are directly applicable in member states, and supersede the law of member states, and the Convention on Human Rights which is subsidiary to the legislation of member states and there is a political requirement on member states to introduce their own legislation to implement it? Is the Taoiseach not aware that if the European Convention on Human Rights was incorporated in the Treaty of Rome that would entirely change its status and make its provisions mandatory here, whereas its provisions are simply persuasive at present?
The Deputy is completely misinterpreting the position. Another factor to be borne in mind is the fact that the European Court have indicated in a number of their judgments that the Community must guarantee that human rights are respected in the operation of the existing EC Treaties. When we take all of those things into account, first that the European Court have decided that the Community must adhere to the provisions with regard to guarantees of human rights, and the fact that each of the twelve member states subscribe individually to the European Convention, I suggest, and this view is shared widely throughout the Community, that subscribing to the convention by the Community as such would be largely theoretical.
In what sense have I misinterpreted the position?
The Deputy misinterpreted the situation in the light of the facts I have given, that all member states are members of and subscribe to the provisions of the European Convention.
That was not the point.
There is nothing further to be gained by the Community subscribing to the European Convention.
Deputy Quinn is offering.
That was not the point raised by the Leader of the Opposition.
Does the Taoiseach read his briefs for Question Time any more?
Having regard to the fact that some applicant countries, including Turkey, are attempting to become members of the Community would the Taoiseach not consider that an incorporation by the Community in the Treaty of Rome of the European Convention on Human Rights, would set down a clear fundamental legal basis for citizens' standards and rights here and in the Community at large? Does not the Taoiseach, therefore, see the need for incorporating in a revised Treaty of Rome, the European Convention on Human Rights?
No. We are not against the thing in principle but we find it difficult to see any practical as distinct from theoretical advantage. The European Court have already decided in judgments handed down that the Community must respect the guarantees of human rights and freedom in its implementation of the Treaty.
That is in regard to Community law.
That is already decided.
Is it not the case that that only applies in respect of Community law whereas Treaty provisions of the European Community supersede national law? By incorporating it in the Rome Treaty, we would widen the field of application and strengthen the effectiveness of the Convention on Human Rights in a way that is not presently possible.
What I am saying, and the Deputy consistently refuses to see the point, is that the European Court, the Community Court, in their judgments on the interpretation of the treaties of the Community, have decided that the Community must adhere to fundamental rights and freedoms in that matter.
Therefore it is already included in our Community law by virtue of these judgments.
It only applies to matters of Community conscience; it does not extend beyond.
