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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 May 1991

Vol. 408 No. 6

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Illegal Fishing.

Austin Deasy

Ceist:

12 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for the Marine the number of Spanish fishing boats which have been prosecuted for illegal fishing within our 200 mile exclusive fishing zone since Spain joined the EC; whether any of these Spanish boats have been apprehended on two or more occasions; if he will introduce legislation to allow for the confiscation of foreign fishing boats which repeatedly engage in illegal fishing within our 200 mile fishery limit; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

The number of Spanish fishing boats which have been prosecuted for illegal fishing within the Irish management zone since Spain joined the Community is 146. Of these 74 have been arrested once only and 72 on two occasions or more. The level of fines applicable under Irish legislation for fishing offences is already among the most stringent in the Community. They include confiscation of catch and gear, fines up to £100,000 and, on a second indictable offence, and at the discretion of the court, the confiscation of the boat.

Legislation which would be specifically limited to Spanish or other foreign vessels would be contrary to Community law which excludes discrimination on grounds of nationality. Any law introduced which would make confiscation obligatory on the court would thus have to apply to all vessels, including Irish vessels. The automatic forfeiture of a boat on a second offence would, I believe, be regarded as a draconian measure by fishermen generally. It is best in my view to leave such decisions to the discretion of the court. I will, however, keep the issue of the appropriate scale of penalties under review in the light of developments.

Would the Minister agree, from the figures he has given, that the Spaniards are involved in wholesale organised law breaking where fishing off our coasts is concerned? Is it not obvious that this is organised crime? From the figures the Minister has given, 72 of these boats have been apprehended on two or more occasions. Is it not true that the law provides for the confiscation of boats which have been caught fishing illegally twice or more often? Why is that not being done? The whole episode has gone beyond a joke, and I would ask the Minister and the Government to take action. Would the Minister also consult with the Minister for Justice to ensure that the penalties that are applicable are imposed? Why lay down penalties such as confiscation if they are not imposed? They have never been imposed.

The Deputy asked if I would introduce legislation to allow for the confiscation of foreign fishing boats. I indicated in the course of my reply that the legislation was already there. I agree with the Deputy that there are serious repeated violations of the law. The Deputy will understand that in this country the discretion is with the judges and that there is nobody more sensitive than a judge to external interference in their judgments. They have the power to confiscate a boat for a second offence. I do not know, because I do not have any statistics on it, whether they have done so or how many times they have done so. Certainly it is not a defect in the law.

Would the Minister consider making it mandatory to have a boat confiscated on a second conviction? It is obvious that these boats which are owned by companies, not by individuals, are breaking the law on a systematic basis and that the fines are being paid by companies and not by individuals. It is organised crime.

That is a question for the Oireachtas. There is a difficulty in that in accordance with European Community law we cannot discriminate, and if we bring in mandatory confiscation for the Spaniards we must also have it for Irish citizens.

That is fine. That is acceptable.

It must be deeply frustrating for the Naval Service who have a great record in arresting ships off our coasts, to have to come back and arrest them a second time. Would the Minister not agree that this is piracy on the seas, which is very lucrative for the Spaniards who keep returning because the fines are not an adequate deterrent? Would the Minister not agree that because the fines are not an adequate deterrent they are coming back a second time?

If the maximum penalties are imposed I would not agree that they are nugatory fines. The confiscation of gear and a maximum fine of £100,000 would cut deeply into the profits of any boat. It is a serious problem which I raised at the most recent Council meeting. There is another question on that issue to which I will come later, and I have got some action on it.

The Minister mentioned £100,000 as being the maximum fine. Can he indicate on how many occasions fines have been imposed, the maximum fine that is actually being imposed, and what the average fine is? In relation to confiscation of catches and fishing gear, on how many occasions has there been such a confiscation?

As this is a different question I do not have the statistics here. As far as I know in all those cases the gear and catch are confiscated. As for the scheduled fines, I would not know.

The average fine is £10,000 or £15,000.

Will the Minister not agree at this stage that there is a compelling economic reason for introducing mandatory seizure of the boat on the second offence, given that so many of our fishermen can no longer make a living from fishing and so many young men cannot get jobs in the fishing industry and because of our situation in relation to quotas? Would the Minister not agree that there is a real onus on the Government which the Government are funking on this issue?

I would not agree.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Taylor-Quinn's question is a repeat of Deputy Deasy's about the mandatory confiscation of the ship. That can be considered.

There are good economic grounds for doing that.

I will look at that. I do not want to go to war here. It is easy to go to war in the House.

We have noticed that already.

A final question.

Neither the country mentioned nor the Council in general is unaware of my views on this, which have been brought to their attention trenchantly no later than the most recent meeting of the Council of Ministers.

Bring legislation before the House and you will get a clear passage.

Deputy Deasy, a final brief relevant question.

Would the Minister not agree that the statistics he has given are a damning indictment of the application of our laws?

I would not agree at all. If I agreed on that I would be indicating that our naval personnel and our ports were totally defective. I do not know the actual fines imposed. It is de rigueur practically, to take the fish and the gear, but what the fines being imposed in the courts in the South of Ireland where the question arises are——

£10,000.

That is the average, is it?

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