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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Nov 1991

Vol. 412 No. 3

Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991 and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991 are being taken together. The Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke, was in possession.

I fear the massive interest is not in education but, perhaps, on other matters.

The Minister will not be in it much longer.

I am very glad of the buzz, it is very exciting. When the debate was adjourned yesterday I was half way through my speech. I look forward to the Second Stage debate and the many varied and valuable contributions by speakers from all sides of the House. Yesterday concluded my reference to the colleges and the DIT.

The Bills seek to address the problem in two ways. First, they seek to strike a reasonable balance between greater freedom and autonomy for the institutions in their day-to-day operations while maintaining traditional links with the Vocational Education Committee system. Secondly, they will enable the institutions to engage in research, development and consultancy work for business and industry as well as to enter into arrangements, including participation in limited companies so as to exploit the results of their work. It would be as well to keep the two objectives firmly before us.

While continuing to play a vital role in the provision of highly skilled personnel, essential to our evolving industrialised economy, the institutions will also be able in the future to increase and improve their interaction with business and industry and to reach their full potential in contributing to national technological development. In this context the contribution made to business and industry by the highly skilled staff involved must not be forgotten.

May we have a copy of the Minister's speech.

They were distributed yesterday. I am in the middle of my speech. I understand one is obliged to produce the script on just one occasion. I would be delighted to send a copy to Deputy Deasy; it is riveting material.

I now propose to outline to the House the provisions of the Bills as presented. My remarks on the individual sections apply to both Bills and I will indicate points of difference as they arise.

Section 1 provides for the Acts coming into operation on a day appointed by ministerial order.

Section 2 deals with the interpretation of the various terms used in the Bills.

Section 3 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill establishes the existing nine colleges as well as the Limerick College of Art, Commerce and Technology as regional technical colleges. It also provides for bringing the Crawford College of Art and Design and the third level courses in the Cork School of Music and the Hotel Training and Catering School in Killybegs within the scope of the Act. Provision is also made for bringing other educational institutions within the scope of the Act and for such institutions or part of them becoming part of a regional technical college in the future as well as for changing the name of a college.

Section 3 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provides for the establishment of the institute and that it will be constituted from the six existing colleges and will comprise such and so many colleges as may be determined by the Minister on the recommendation of the governing body of the institute made following consultation with the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee. Provision is made for the incorporation of other educational institutions or a part of an institution into the institute in the future.

Section 4 sets out the persons who will be members of a college or the institute.

Section 5 sets out the functions of the colleges and the institute. The principal function will be to provide vocational and technical education and training for the economic, technological, scientific, commercial, industrial, social and cultural development of the State. To this end they will provide courses of study and enter into arrangements with appropriate authorities for the award of degrees, diplomas, certificates and other educational awards. Provision is also made for engaging in research, consultancy and development work, either separately or with other institutions, to provide services in relation to such work and to enter into arrangements, including participation in limited companies, to exploit the results of this work. The Dublin Institute of Technology will, subject to the recommendation of the academic council, retain the power to award its own diplomas, certificates and other awards. Additional functions may be assigned to the colleges or to the institute by order of the Minister made with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance and the formal approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas. Degree awarding powers could at the appropriate time be assigned to the Dublin Institute of Technology under this provision.

Section 6 provides for the establishment of governing bodies. In the regional technical colleges the governing body will consist of a chairperson and 15 ordinary members and the director of the college. The members will be appointed by the Minister on the recommendations of the appropriate vocational education committees. Six persons will be nominated by the vocational education committee, one will be a member of the academic staff, one will be a representative of the non academic staff, one will be a student of the college, one will be nominated by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and five will be nominated by such other organisations and interests as the vocational education committee considers require representation having regard to the particular courses in the college and the overall membership of the governing body.

The governing body of the Dublin Institute of Technology will consist of the chairperson, 17 ordinary members and the director of the institute. The additional members allow for two representatives of the academic staff and a representative of the University of Dublin. The staff and students will nominate their representatives in accordance with regulations which will be made by the governing bodies. Accordingly, it is necessary to have interim governing bodies for a one year period to allow these regulations to be made. When the Bill is operative there will be an interim period of one year, because staff and students will nominate their representatives in accordance with regulations which will be made by governing bodies when they are set up. So far as possible the composition of these first governing bodies have been kept the same as it will be for subsequent governing bodies, with the Minister nominating persons to the positions available for staff and student representatives. This is provided for in subsection (3) of this section in both Bills.

The Second Schedule to both Bills sets out the detailed arrangements in relation to governing bodies.

Section 7 provides for the functions of the governing body, which will be exercised subject to general policy and to the programmes and budget approved annually. The functions will include managing the affairs of the college or institute, including land and buildings vested in the Vocational Education Committees, and performing the functions conferred on the college or institute by the Bill. This section provides also that the governing body may appoint committees, that it will bear constantly in mind the national aims in relation to the Irish language and culture and that the institute or a college may be required to cease providing a course or service.

Section 8 provides for the removal from office of the members of a governing body or for a dissolution of a governing body where the Minister is satisfied that its functions are not being duly discharged or it fails to comply with a lawful order of the Minister or of a court of competent jurisdiction. This section provides also for the transfer of the functions of a governing body to any person or persons and re-establishment of a governing body in place of a dissolved body within two years of its dissolution.

Section 9 provides for the appointment and other matters relating to the director. The selection of the director will be a function of the governing body. The third schedule to both Bills relate to the director. In the regional technical colleges a person who is employed as principal of a college at the commencement of the Act, if that person so consents, shall be the first director of that college.

Section 10 in the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provides that a head of college shall be appointed for each college determined under section 3 of the Act. A person who is employed as the principal of one of the six existing colleges, if that person consents and is recommended by the governing body, may be appointed as a head of college.

Section 10 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 11 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide for the appointment by the governing body of academic councils and prescribes the functions of such councils. These functions will include to design, develop and implement courses of study, to make recommendations to the governing body for the establishment of appropriate structures to implement the courses of study, to make recommendations on programmes for research and development work and to make recommendations for the selection, admission, retention and exclusion of students.

Section 11 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 12 in the Dublin Institute of Techology Bill provide for the selection of staff by a college or by the institute, for their appointment by the vocational education committee and for the determination by the college or institute of their numbers, pay and conditions of service subject to the usual approval. The staff of a college or the institute will be officers or servants of the vocational education committee for the purposes of certain provisions of the Vocational Education Act, 1930, the Vocational Educational Education (Amendment) Act, 1944, and for the purposes of the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1980. The vocational education committees shall be the body resposible for dismissal, suspension or removal from office, but only on the recommendation of the governing body and in the case of removal from office with the consent of the Minister. This preserves the existing conditions of staff in these matters. This was a point strongly impressed on me by the TUI over 12 months ago.

Section 12 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 13 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide for matters relating to existing staff. These will become staff of the college or the institute, but as in the provisions of sections 11 and 12 above, certain provisions of the Vocational Education Act, 1930, the Vocational Education (Amendment) Act, 1944, and the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1980, will continue to apply. Staff employed by a vocational education committee on work concerned with the administration of a college or other institution covered by the Bills may also be appointed to the college or institute. Existing staff who become staff of a college or of the institute under this section shall not receive less remuneration or be subject to less beneficial conditions of service than those applying before the coming into operation of these Acts. It is a necessary safeguard.

Section 13 in the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 14 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill set out the provisions in relation to the annual submission, approval and implementation of programmes and budgets for the colleges and the institute respectively. They provide that the college or institute will annually prepare and submit to the vocational education committee operational programmes and budgets. These will be submitted to the Minister with or without modification and will be approved by the Minister with or without modification.

Section 14 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 15 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide for the preparation and submission of an annual report and for the provision of such other information as may be required.

Section 15 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 16 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide that annual grants may be paid to the colleges and the institute out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.

Section 16 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 17 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide that a college or institute must keep proper accounts which will be submitted annually to the Comptroller and Auditor General for audit. These sections provide also that copies of the accounts and the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General will be laid before the Houses of the Oirechtas.

Section 17 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 18 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide that the college or institute may charge fees or make other appropriate charges for services or events.

Section 18 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 19 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill deal with the transfer of property and liabilities. These sections provide that land, which includes buildings, vested in or acquired by a vocational education committee for the purposes of a college or the institute will be held in trust by the vocational education committee for the college, or institute. On the establishment date all property — other than land — rights and liabilities held before the establishment date by the vocational education committee for a college or the institute will be transferred to the college or the institute.

Section 19 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 20 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide that contracts in force and legal proceedings pending, other than in relation to land, before the establishment date will be preserved or continued by substituting the name of the college or the institute for that of the vocational education committee.

Section 20 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 21 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide for inspection of a college or the institute and for the purpose of reporting on the efficiency of the instruction being given or on any other matter relating to the operation of a college or the institute.

Section 21 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 22 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide for the expenses incurred in administering the Acts

Section 22 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 23 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide for the making of regulations with regard to the operation of the colleges and the institute and for laying such regulations before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Section 23 of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and section 24 of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill provide for the short title in each case.

In summary, therefore, the Bills seek to: retain the Regional Technical Colleges and the DIT within the Vocational Education Committee structure while establishing them as self governing institutions; provide a framework for the operation of the institutions subject to general policy and within the operational programmes and budgets which would be drawn up annually by the governing bodies subject to the approval of the appropriate Vocational Education Committee and the Minister; give each institution through its governing body the responsibility and necessary authority to manage and administer its own affairs within approved policies, programmes and budget; establish governing bodies with appropriate representation from the Vocational Education Committees, the staff, the students, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and other interests appropriate to the activities of the institutions; provide directors and academic councils for the DIT and each of the Regional Technical Colleges; provide a statutory basis for participation in research, development and consultancy work including, where appropriate, participation in limited companies in order to fully exploit results of such work; provide that the DIT will continue to have authority to award qualifications other than degree awards, although this function could be conferred later by ministerial order made with the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas.

I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the vocational education committees under whose management the colleges have grown and developed. Their contribution cannot be underestimated. They provide the base from which the colleges from such small beginnings have grown to their present stature and from whence these Bills will provide them with the framework to enter a new phase of growth and dynamism. I would like to pay particular tribute to the men and women who have worked so hard for the colleges in their capacity as members of the boards of management and college councils in the regional technical colleges and members of the governing body, the joint academic council and individual college councils in the Dublin Institute of Technology. I have no doubt that much of the expertise and experience gained by these bodies over the years will continue to be available in the context of the new structures as now proposed.

It would be remiss of me at this stage not to acknowledge the enormous contribution of the principals and staff of the colleges and of the institute to the success of these institutions since their beginnings. This contribution will, I know, continue and be enhanced within the remit of these new Bills.

I would wish also to take this opportunity to acknowledge the significant contribution to the development of the colleges which has been made by the National Council for Educational Awards over the years. The acceptability and recognition nationally and internationally of NCEA awards, its flexibility in adapting to changing needs and continuing strong demands for its expanding range of awards, attest to their success. I look forward to the continuation of this successful partnership.

The Bills are very comprehensive and do all that is necessary to give the institutions greater autonomy and freedom in the conduct of their day to day activities, which is in keeping with the state of development the institutions have reached and the potential they have to contribute to our educational, technological and economic development. I have an extensive and detailed round of consultations with parties interested in these Bills. Many points were of course made to me during these consultations and I am considering them at present, which may of course lead to amendments on Committee Stage. I know we will have a very interesting discussion on the Bills and I will, of course, be very open to giving serious consideration to suggestions and proposals which will be made in this House and in the upper House that are with a view to improving the texts of the Bills in line with their general intent and thrust.

Before concluding, I would like to make a few points. We had a half an hour on another day and this is the first full day of debate on Second Stage. When I spoke on Tuesday evening we sketched the historical background. I dwelt upon that, first because of my own natural interest in history — I always seek to go back to the beginnings of things. It was interesting to trace the origins of the regional colleges and the reports in the sixties leading to their setting up. The regional colleges are more or less 21 years of age in this year of 1991. That in itself is significant.

What has been achieved by those colleges is truly remarkable. I have a great affection for the Vocational Education Committee third level system. I cut my teeth there as a public representative, first as a board member, then as chairperson of the board of management in Athone Regional Technical College and later as chairperson of the Vocational Education Committee. I was there from the beginning of the colleges and through my work there was able to trace the development of other colleges, meeting with chairs of other colleges and with governing bodies and members of boards of management.

There is no doubt about the impact that these colleges have made on the life of the regions, not just on the cohort of students. That itself is significant because it brings great life to a town. The regional colleges were set up to serve the needs of a region and they have always taken that remit very seriously. Following on from that they have become national colleges as well. However, their national remit has never obscured their regional one, the one of catering for the developmental needs of a particular region. They have always sought to amplify and put into true perspective the development of the region which they serve.

The people who took over at the helm and who were pioneers in this area of education remain as principals of these colleges and their vigour and enthusiasm have not dimmed. This is remarkable when one considers their travails and the developments they have had to oversee and the budgetary controls and constraints under which they had to work under Governments of all hues. They have constantly sought to increase their numbers and enlarge the number of courses on offer. From their traditional beginnings when they offered leaving certificate courses and apprenticeships they have moved on to certificate, diploma, graduate and, in some instances, post-graduate courses. It seems that the principals and staffs of these colleges and the vocational education committees who administer them have never lowered their targets or allowed their vistas to become dimmed.

It is truly exhilarating to think of what has been achieved over a relatively short span of time of 21 years. If this country was not ready and willing, under Governments of all hues, to move quickly with the developments which occurred during this period in technological education we would now find ourselves in a truly backward position. It is because we were prepared to move quickly with developments that we were able in the heady days of the late sixties and early seventies and are now able in steadier and perhaps sombre times to cater for the growing needs of our young workforce and young people coming out of second level schools who are eagerly demanding and seeking, as is their right, third level education. Each year each college and vocational education committee take another leap and provide another degree course, look to Europe for moneys, provide another phase of physical development, albeit at a much slower pace than we would wish if money was plentiful. However, ERDF funding and national funding have already begun to make a difference.

It is a fact that the vocational education committees and the colleges have never said no to students and argued that they just cannot cope any more. Perhaps one could say that they have been too generous and have kept their doors constantly opened. They feel, however, that theyhave a duty to this State and the potential of our young people, that their slot in the third level system is enormously important and they want to contribute, and they have. When the educational history of the country comes to be comprehensively written it will be seen that their role was hugely important and they contributed to the range of expertise.

Earlier in the debate I traced the historical origins of the Dublin Institute of Technology. If I dwelt too long on the regional technical colleges the reason is that I have a close knowledge of the way these colleges operate. Equally, I admire the historical role that the colleges of the DIT have played and the way they have evolved over a much longer timespan. The origins of technical education can be traced back to an artisans exhibition in 1885 when it was suggested that these colleges might be used to provide education for the working classes in Dublin. On Tuesday evening I went on to trace the physical developments and to point out that it is now the largest third level institution in the country if we combine all their resources and student numbers together. The various qualifications obtained in many spheres of professional competency in the Dublin Institute of Technology are now judged to be of the very high standards. In the course of my duties as Minister for Education I have come across firms, both national and international, who have taken on those graduates and attest to their very high standards of competency and the skills they have obtained through their colleges. This was made possible through the link between the vocational education committees and the existing colleges and due to the fact that the principals and staff of those colleges have always forged ahead with their pioneering role.

Before I conclude I would like to embrace a wider issue which I am sure will be raised on the floor of the House by way of the various amendments that will be put forward. The spirit and thrust of the Bill is a generous one. No one is seeking to take away from, add to or diminish in any way groups, bodies, institutions or individuals. What the Bill seeks to do is to give these colleges, the individual regional technical colleges and the six colleges of the DIT, more space to grow further and develop, to engage in further research and development — they have been carrying out some but not on a statutory basis — maintain the balance between removing them and keeping them, to give them greater autonomy in the day-to-day running of their affairs, to give the heads, the directors, or presidents, or whatever title we give them greater discretion and powers in the day-to-day running of their affairs of their own very formidable institutions while at the same time keeping the traditional link with the vocational education committees.

Let me repeat something which I said on Tuesday. It is important that we approach the Bill in a proper way. When I started to reflect on the Bill I realised, from my own experience, that the link with the vocational education committees was valuable so I decided not to go ahead with what was proposed in the 1987 Bill which would have severed them completely. I wanted at the same time to give the colleges, as I said, more space, an opportunity to grow further and develop and to allow the people running those institutions to make their own decisions on certain matters which affect them on a daily basis.

I venture to suggest with some modesty that the officials of my Department, the parliamentary draftsman and I have sought to give expression to that thrust and maintain the very fine balance between the two opposite sides of the debate. I look forward to the debate on Second Stage and to any amendments which may be brought forward. As I said, I am open to receiving amendments which might improve Members' estimation of the texts or thrust of the Bills. I would like to say, again, that the thrust is to give them greater autonomy and allow them to carry out research on a statutory basis. I hope that the amendments will go along with the main thrust which we feel we have achieved. There is no sense of anybody wanting to take in a pirate like fashion anything from anybody; we just want everyone to get on with their business in a modern advanced way as befits the colleges at their present state of development.

I commend the two Bills to the House and I look forward to the debate.

I note that the relaxed, cheery, pleasant manner of the Minister on Wednesday evening seems to have been replaced this morning by a very serious note. I gather it is an indication of other serious business which must be addressed. It is regrettable that these two Bills, in spite of their importance, sadly will not get the priority on the political agenda that they deserve——

Whether I am serious or gay, I am here.

I acknowledge that the Minister is making a good effort to concentrate on the business and if she is elevated to a higher position I hope she will retain her interest in the Bills on Committee Stage. I wish her well.

I thank Deputy Ahearn for her good wishes.

Mná na hÉireann.

We left the fir behind anyway.

The Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991, and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill are long overdue. The surprise is that since the regional colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology were set up in 1970 for the next 21 years no Bill was introduced in this House to deal with them. Fine Gael welcome these Bills in principle.

The Minister gave a very adequate account of the development of technical education. The Regional Technical Colleges were set up to provide post primary technical education — in other words, to provide education at technical level. This was identified as an area in which Ireland was deficient. Several reports in the sixties referred to our deficiencies in these areas. Therefore, if Ireland was to become more industrialised, if we were to take our place among the modern nations of Europe, it was necessary and urgent for us to rectify our deficiencies in the field of technology.

The majority of our second level schools provide for the most part a very good academic education. The products of this system — the students who went on to third level education — proceeded in the main to follow academic courses of study. As a result our country found itself without the skills necessary for a modern industrialised State. Indeed, there were many areas of concern in the seventies. Our middle management was weak. We had research scientists but very few applied scientists. We had qualified engineers and skilled workers, but in the area in between we were very weak. We had qualified accountants and people who studied business to leaving certificate level, but again in the great area in between we had none. To fill this great vacuum which existed at technician and middle management level was the reason for setting up the colleges. Their aim was to educate and to train so that people could apply their knowledge to the economy.

When the first regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology were set up in the seventies it was a time of great hope. The end of the sixties had been good, emigration had dwindled to a trickle and indeed many who had emigrated were returning home. The first regional technical colleges employed many returned emigrants, some had completed their education in Britain, the US and in many other countries. They had done research in foreign lands, studied for higher degrees, they had experience of working in manufacturing, scientific establishments and in business concerns. They brought this great reservoir of knowledge and experience back to their native land and it was utilised by the Regional Technical Colleges. Their contribution to this country has been immense and deserves recognition.

The first regional technical colleges were built in Carlow, Waterford, Athlone, Dundalk, Sligo and Letterkenny to the same design and, sadly, on the cheap. What a pity to see such massive concrete blocks staring blankly into space. Our aesthetic sense in 1969 and in the seventies was not very well cultivated and as a result the buildings were drab and unimaginative; they were simply functional. It is a sad contrast with the palatial buildings of UCD, Trinity College, University of Limerick and Dublin City University. While there might be some excuse for the parsimony of the seventies, Regional Technical Colleges do not get their fair share of the national educational cake in the nineties. Facilities for students, such as canteen and library, are not on par with those in the universities. In fact the library facilities in the majority of our colleges are a disgrace, indeed they are almost non-existent. Despite repeated requests for improved facilities, it is now clear that this Government, sadly, do not consider proper and adequate libraries as a priority for students at regional technical colleges.

The same is true in regard to facilities for staff. Why should this be so? The greatest "bang for the buck", as a former Fianna Fáil Minister once put it, in third level education in Ireland is given in regional technical colleges. Colleges which began with fewer than 200 students in 1970 now have well over 2,000. Indeed, some of them have increased their student numbers by 100 per cent since 1985. Some regional technical colleges which were built for a certain number of students are now educating 600 or 700 more. Where else will you get this kind of inefficiency? These colleges deserve these Bills, but also more resources. They have answered the call of the nation in providing more third level places, but better facilities for both students and staff and now urgently called for.

There is another important point I would like to make. The first regional technical colleges are now over 20 years in existence. The build-up of staff in the colleges took place between 1975 and 1983. Many of these staff members began work in the colleges around their late twenties. The great majority of staff in regional technical colleges are now in 1991 between the ages of 40 to 50 years. Because so few staff have reached retirement age, very few new staff are being appointed. In ten years' time most of the staff will be between 50 and 60 years. This is a bad age profile for the colleges. To rectify this matter and for the good of the colleges I would recommend to the Minister that she offer a once off retirement package to the regional technical colleges so that new staff members can be appointed, where innovation and creativity and, above all, modern education techniques are so important. I hope the Minister will give serious consideration to this proposal.

Eventually regional technical colleges will have the same natural wastage as other colleges, but in the meantime a retirement package would help solve the poor age profile of the present staff. This proposed retirement package should be offered to people who are over 50 years of age. It would not cost much and the benefits to the colleges of being able to appoint new staff would be immense. I would like the Minister to seriously consider this suggestion. I believe that it is a worthwhile one.

We in Fine Gael, as I said, welcome these Bills. The regional technical colleges and DITs were set up under the 1930 Vocational Educational Act. The colleges were run by a board of management, which was a sub-committee of the Vocational Education Committee of the area in which the college was located. These vocational education committees and boards of management did marvellous work in the last 20 years. A lot of it may not be very dramatic and much of it was no doubt tedious, but the regional technical colleges of today are monuments to their great endeavours.

Decisions made at board of management level since the regional technical colleges were set up had to be ratified by the Vocational Education Committee and this made the decision-making process rather slow and cumbersome. Also the regional technical colleges have grown and developed to an extent not envisaged in 1970. They now provide not just certificates and diplomas but degrees as well. They are engaged in research and consultancy. They have forged close links with industry. A number of them, through their research areas, have students doing higher degrees. Now, after 20 years, it is time to give more automony to the regional technical colleges. It is time to allow them to run their own affairs on a day-to-day basis. It is time to allow them to respond quickly and positively to changes in the environment in which they operate. It is for these reasons that we in Fine Gael welcome this Bill in principle.

We have some queries with the details of the Bill, but we welcome the general thrust of the document. We will be putting down some amendments on Committee Stage and we hope that the Minister will look favourably, as she has suggested, on those amendments. They have been carefully throught out and if they are incorporated in the Bill it will be much improved.

It is then in a positive and constructive manner that I will dwell briefly on some areas of these Bills in which I will be seeking changes. The title "regional technical college" was very suitable and apt back in the seventies when colleges in the main provided technical education for a region. I believe that today their regional character should be retained in their title, but recognition must now be given to the numerous and varied courses that have evolved and developed over the years, not only in the technology area but also in the business and scientific fields. The title regional technical college is perceived by staff and students as ignoring the fact that business studies, art and design and the social sciences account for over half of the students in regional technical colleges.

Section 5 of the Bill defines the principal functions of a college, which are to provide vocational and technical education and training for the economic, technological, scientific, commercial, industrial, social and cultural development of the State. I believe that these functions should be encompassed in the college title and for these reasons in future the regional technical colleges should be called regional polytechnics.

To retain the present title of regional technical colleges is misleading. It ignores the fact that business studies, art and design and the social sciences account for over half of the students attending a regional technical college. It also in a sense undersells all that the colleges have achieved. The title "regional polytechnic" will adequately represent the extent and the variety of courses offered in the colleges. Furthermore, it is an internationally recognised title.

The title "polytechnic" will assist regional technical colleges in forming partnerships in the various EC programmes, such as ERASMUS, COMETT and TEMPUS, as potential partners in other EC countries and the emerging democracies of eastern Europe, where this title is applied to a third level colleges with a programme profile of a typical Regional Technical College in this country. It is also very important as we move towards the single market and towards greater co-operation and interaction in education at all levels.

The student body in each college is the most significant part of the college. We in Fine Gael believe that this Bill must give greter recognition to student needs. In general up to three-quarters of the students in any college are living away from home. Others commute up to 30 miles a day, leaving home very early in the morning and not returning until late at night. The governing body must be given a specific mandate in these Bills to provide for the mental and physical wellbeing of the student body. The Bill, as it stands does not include such a provision and I believe that on Committee Stage it is important that such a provision be included.

I welcome the inclusion of a student representative on the governing body. However, this could be a daunting place for any one student to articulate the needs of their fellow students. I believe the welfare and voice of the students deserves the provision of two places on the governing body. I hope that the Minister will be agreeable to such a proposal on Committee Stage.

In the First Schedule, ten vocational education committees are listed in column 3 under the heading of the functional areas in which the colleges are situated. No mention is made in the Bill of all other vocational education committees. Fine Gael believe that the governing body of the colleges must reflect the needs, concerns and aspirations of the region from which they draw the majority of their students. Accordingly, we will be proposing a role and function of a consultation to the governing body by all of the vocational education committees within a college region.

The concept of regional involvement and accountability is very important and therefore we believe that Schedule 1 should contain a new concept for the associated vocational education committees. These committees are linked to each college and should be listed in a new column 4 in the First Schedule to the Bill. Perhaps this is also a suitable time for the Minister to review the catchment areas or the associated vocational education committees to each college. They should be updated on the facts now available on participation of vocational education committees to the colleges. At the moment the associated vocational education committees who nominate members onto the board of management of the nearest regional technical college have a negligible direct input into the formulation of programmes of work at the regional technical colleges.

This is the time to ensure a real worthwhile role for the associated vocational education committees. When the director and senior staff of a college are drafting the programmes and budgets for each year, a meeting with the director and his senior staff along with associated vocational education committees should be held for the purpose of discussion and planning. It would be shameful if we ignored what could be a most valuable input by the associated vocational education committees.

We all agree that it is time that regional technical colleges and DIT establish closer links with the third level education area. Since their institution the situation has evolved to the extent that the courses run in the colleges are third level certificate, diploma and degree courses. The colleges are therefore essentially third level institutions and the actual work of the colleges has grown considerably from the original concept of the regional technical colleges and DIT.

The Bill gives an enhanced capacity to the colleges to deliver programmes, to enter into contracts and to be responsible for debts. For too long they were too restricted in this regard and as a result many colleges missed contracts to sister institutions. The legislation will also enhance the colleges' ability to develop research and academic links with European and other foreign colleges and, hopefully, will result in an increase in the number and extent of student exchange programmes, a matter of considerable relevance with the prospect of the single market.

It is right that due and proper tribute is paid to the National Council for Educational Awards under those aegis the colleges have developed. The success of the many graduates is an endorsement of the quality and standing of the NCEA awards. However, both colleges wish to be in the future conferred with the right to award their own degrees. I must point out that all the colleges give just recognition to the universities, with whose co-operation they are offering degree courses at the moment. The colleges, in particular the DIT, at this stage rightly claim to have long experience of teaching to degree level. In fact, they claim to have greater experience in this field that either Dublin City University or Limerick University. As a result they rightly believe that, as such, they must have earned the right to award their own degrees. I look forward to a major discussion of this section of the Bill on Committee Stage. The Minister in her speech said that she envisages in the future special powers could be assigned to the Dublin Institute of Technology under the provision of section 5. However, I suggest that now is the time to give the colleges this power to award their own degrees. If they can be given power in the future surely they can be given it at this stage. I hope the Minister will give very serious and positive consideration to this important issue.

I welcome the introduction of these Bills; but, sadly, in the context of the needs of third level education in general, they are but a pebble in the sand of the third level system.

The cry for the provision of extra places gets louder and louder as students are pressurised to achieve more and more points to squeeze through a narrowing door. The fact that so many of our students achieve so much, in the midst of this turmoil is an indication of their determination and courage and a reflection on the dedication and trojan work of our teachers. Let me ask, however, are we fair to allow this system to continue. Are we fair as we force our students to reproduce the product of so many hours of intensive study into a three hour examination? Are we fair as we discard and ignore the importance of career or job suitability by depriving our students of good, sound and professional career guidance, and are we, as a result, pushing round pegs into square holes? The answers to these questions, I admit are not easy; but they must be a work priority.

It is of paramount importance that we collectively decide to make two things possible: first, to provide a larger number of places in third level education and, second, to ensure greater access by all to third level education. In addition to providing extra places we must provide proper and sufficient library places. Student accommodation is another area which badly needs serious attention.

The scandal of the inequities of the third level grant system must be ended quickly. The Minister must recognise that PAYE workers and their families are being discriminated against in the assessment for grants. Indeed, many low income families are excluded because the income threshold is far too low. Equality of opportunity has a hollow ring as we review these inequities, yet we still claim it to be the hallmark of our education policy.

We must seriously review the system to ensure that our students can have the opportunity to realise their potential and use their talents. I sincerely hope that the commitment given in this regard in the Programme for Government will be honoured very soon.

As I said earlier, it is now almost 20 years since the first students were admitted to the regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges. These colleges have emerged as institutions of high standing, both nationally and internationally. Time has permitted their graduates to demonstrate their ability in a wide range of disciplines, from technology to the science and business domains and always at the highest level. The recognition of their achievement is well known to parents and students alike and is reflected in the high level of competition for admission, the high quality of those students admitted and by the high demand for graduates. They have indeed played their anticipated role in stimulating economic development, introducing educational innovation, and both have been directly and indirectly responsible for a wide range of new enterprises which have been created by their graduates.

Education will always require vision, vigour and courage in its planning process. In recent years all aspects of education have grown in complexity with a proportionate increase in pressure and frustration. Yet the challenges to be met in education are of concern to all Irish people. It is as a society that we must face these challenges and set our goals for the future.

It is in a spirit of collective responsibility that we must provide the means to enable our young people to avail of all the opportunities of life in the 21st century. As these Bills indicate, the need for change and for review in education is ongoing, and must be a feature of education at all times. Education must evolve, it must be responsive to new demands and new needs. Its structures must be flexible enough to respond quickly where new needs are identified. These Bills are, in fact, a response to these needs.

For the most part they are a positive step forward in the development of third level education in that they allow the colleges a far greater degree of autonomy in their own affairs than they enjoy at present. They enable them to be more responsive to the needs of the regions in which they are located and in which they were designed to serve.

I ask the Minister to give serious and balanced consideration to the amendments that will be tabled by the Fine Gael Party. In the final analysis, with the benefit of all our combined wisdom, we will hopefully have in each case a Bill that will do what is best for the advancement of the education that is being provided for all our people.

The spirit in which the Minister introduced the Bills was refreshing. The Minister has set herself objectives which I believe are not fully catered for and I will be suggesting changes to both Bills, the Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991, and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991, which would enable the two fundamental objectives of the Bills to be achieved, that is, to give greater autonomy to the colleges and to allow them to become involved in research and development and consultancy work in the business and commercial area.

I have a reservation about the timing of the introduction of these Bills. I understand from the Programme for Government that the long awaited education Green Paper is to be published before Christmas and I feel it is a pity that the Bills could not have been held over until the national debate on the Green Paper would have taken place. The Minister the week before last told us in this House that she was not greatly concerned about the time required for the consultative process provided it was effective. That worries me. While I accept that full and frank consultations with all parties, not alone the vested interests but the community at large, is required, I would not like to see it going on and on because it is important that an education Act be put in place. The Green Paper would have given us an opportunity to consider the whole area of third level education.

It is fair to say that in the allocation of resources the major part of new resources had been moving in the direction of the universities. The debate on the Green Paper would give the public at large opportunities to comment favourably on the regional technical colleges and their role in the regions and I believe that one of the strong recommendations would be for better resourcing of these colleges. I do not doubt the Minister's intentions, but in all sincerity I must say that the effect of the Bills could be a copper-fastening of control of the Regional Technical College and Dublin Institute of Technology colleges by the Department.

The fact that this debate will not have taken place before these Bills are enacted is regrettable from a number of view-points. First, we have not had the opportunity to discuss the philosophy of education, which would give the community an opportunity to state the values which underpin our society — tolerance, compassion, honesty and integrity and so on. I fear the direction the Departmnet will take over a period — I am not referring to the Minister of the day, but to the ongoing direction.

Which Bill is the Deputy talking about?

Both Bills. The legislation will be in place and I believe, in keeping with the demographic and resourcing trends, the tendency will be that degree level third level courses will move to the universities. For example, section 7 (5) allows the Minister by way of letter to instruct the governing body to cease providing specific courses or services. My essential fear is that if, for instance, a regional college and a university both provided a similar degree course and the numbers attending the university course were in decline because of demographic trends, the Department would want the course to continue in the university as distinct from in the regional college.

That takes us into the whole area of the quality of education. I submit that if the colleges were moved back basically towards the technician area, the liberal aspect of education could be lost in that milieu. That is a point I have made often in this House and it is a point with which the Minister herself agrees, I know. Education is about the development of the individual to the fullness of his or her potential. That is the first and foremost educational objective; responding to the demands of the marketplace is not what it is all at. My gravest concern in relation to the Regional Technical Colleges Bill in particular is that the activity of regional colleges will be curtailed over a period because of resourcing and because of demographic trends. I shall deal with the whole issue of what I consider to be centralisation later on in my contribution.

I am glad to say that there has been much representation on these Bills, they have excited a great deal of interest. I have received quite a lot of representation on what is perceived to be a diminished role for vocational education committees. A very strong case has been made to me about accountability. At the end of the day, who in fact is the responsible accounting officer for regional technical colleges? The local government auditor is now departing the scene and the Comproller and Auditor General comes on board; but from my own reading of the Bill there appears to be a certain vagueness in that regard. That is an issue that I shall address in more detail on Committee Stage. In general the vocational education committees are the only permanent education structure throughout the country. I believe that structures will come in for a great deal of attention in the debate on the Green Paper. I am sure that it is the Minister's own desire and intention that structures will evolve which can be included in the White Paper and, finally, in the Bill.

The two Bills provide for the transfer of staff from vocational education committees to regional technical colleges, whereas it is my view that subsequent to the passage of an education Act the role of vocational education committees will range over a much wider area. Without reiterating a point I made recently during the debate on the Fine Gael Private Members' Bill, they will need, for instance, to deal with the growing discipline problem at first and second levels in the conext of the family. I was seeking the appointment of a school officer to each vocational education committee area. Children who were problematic or, to use the term loosely, emotionally disturbed would be referred to the school welfare officer at an early age and the officer would deal with the problem in the context of the family, co-ordinating the voluntary and statutory agencies. Discipline should not be examined solely in terms of the schools and in terms of sanctions. The problem rests in the first instance with the family. Many families need a great deal of support. We need to support families and help their education because in some instances budgeting and management skills are very deficient although the family income may be quite adequate. I know of a programme run by the vocational education committee that provided people with advice on budgeting in relation to the family diet. That programme helped a small number of people, but it proved very successful. That is an activity that I would like to see expanded.

The point I wish to make here is that the role of vocational education committees is open for expansion. Such expansion will be made more clear in the debate on the Green Paper, the White Paper and the subsequent introduction of legislation to the House.

I wish to refer back to what I consider to be a tendency towards centralisation evident in both of these Bills. I remain very concerned about that. The Bills are similar, yet they are completely dissimilar when considered in their totality. I refer specifically to section 5 of both Bills, section 5 being the provision that deals with the functions of colleges. The Bills are the same except for section 5 (1) (b) of the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, which confers as a function of that college the wherewithal to confer, grant or give diplomas, certificates or other educational awards, other than degree awards. The nature of Dublin Institute of Technology will be different from the nature of regional colleges, which is, in fact, the position at the moment. I know that the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee and the Dublin Institute of Technology would want the awarding of degrees to be included in that section and to have the last phrase deleted. I understood the Minister to say in her speech that there may be another way to meet that contingency. I suggest that that could possibly be section 5 (2) (a), which seems to give enabling powers. I have to ask the Minister why there must be a difference. In her reply I should like her to say why she does not consider it appropriate for regional technical colleges to confer, grant or give diplomas, certificates or other educational awards. Indeed, as one who supports the desire of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee to have the conferring of degrees added to that provision, I ask why that is not possible for regional technical colleges also.

In fairness, I have to make a distinction in that regard, and I shall become a little parochial at this stage. All of the regional technical colleges are not similar in terms of their development and the areas into which they have developed. Without making comparisons between colleges, because that would be invidious, I would say in all sincerity that I believe that the most successful of all of the colleges has been the Waterford college.

How strange?

What about Athlone?

I will discuss that with the Minister privately later, but I would say that in her heart of hearts she agrees with me. The college in Waterford at present has 46 per cent of its students pursuing degree level courses. Waterford city is one of the five county boroughs. Dublin city has four universities if the university at Maynoth is included and its Dublin Institute of Technology sector is now being given a function way beyond what is available to regional colleges, in particular the regional college at Waterford. The Minister indicated in her speech that that subsection would go through in its present form but that she had the wherewithal to allow the conferring of degrees later on. Of the five county boroughs Dublin has, as I have said, four universities and a Dublin Institute of Technology sector that has conferring rights way above those of the regional technical colleges sector. Dublin, Cork, Limerick have their universities and regional technical colleges as well. Waterford Regional Technical College have not alone demonstrated their desire to become involved in the degree conferring area but have made substantial progress in that direction. Not unlike what is being sought by Cork Regional Technical College vis-à-vis their problem in relation to the College of Music and Crawford College of Art and Design, their desire to retain those colleges as institutions with their individuality and independence, there could be provision in this Bill to allow colleges, such as Waterford, to expand in the direction of degree-conferring or the provision of degrees. I would not like to see that happen at the cost of the basic mandate of the technical or professional areas which have been the real success story in education over the past two decades.

That provision by the regional technical colleges has done an enormous amount to develop our industry and people in terms of their skills. We have witnessed circumstances in which the expertise of people in the service sector of some of our semi-State bodies, who have benefited from training in the regional technical colleges, is sought overseas and a great deal of money has been paid for that expertise. That is one aspect only of the enormous development there has been among our work-force generally on account of the existence of these colleges.

When replying, or perhaps in terms of amendment on Committee Stage, I would ask the Minister to investigate the possibility of allowing the Waterford college and any other colleges aspiring in that direction, degree-conferring status. If Waterford college is not catered for under the provisions of this Bill, if there is no provision made for Waterford Regional Technical College to expand into the realm of the provision of degrees it will fail to fulfil its real purpose. Waterford and the whole south-eastern region is seriously disadvantaged in terms of the numbers of people who avail of third-level education in the higher education authority and in the degree-conferring sector.

I have some relevant statistics here in which Deputy Cullimore will be interested also showing that, within the south-eastern counties of Wexford, Kilkenny and Waterford there is the lowest participation rate. For example, Wexford has a 7.5 per cent participation rate; Kilkenny 8.0 per cent, Waterford city and county 8.4 per cent, against the national average of 12 per cent.

Is that Clancy?

It is based on the cohort for 1988. It is probably Clancy but is in another form here. Nonetheless the figures are just as accurate.

(Wexford): It might be a case of moving the regional technical college to Wexford.

I would say to Deputy Browne that would be physically impossible. On the other hand, Wexford in terms of its aspirations for a regional technical college——

Are the statistics the Deputy quoted in relation to the higher education authority sector?

Yes, they related to the higher education authority sector.

That is a different matter.

No, certainly it is not a different matter because there is a high participation rate in the south-east in terms of certificates and diplomas but the deficiency exists at the degree level.

What will happen when we get our college in Tipperary?

I would remind Members that we cannot have a Committee Stage debate now.

Without inviting interruptions I am sure that the college when it arrives in Tipperary will be a resounding success. The problem is that, in the south-east region, the service sector is very weak. Whereas we are talking about education we cannot do so in isolation because people who obtain degrees tend to remain in the area within which they have graduated. There has been quite an outflow of people with degrees from the south-eastern region, from Waterford in particular — which is my main concern as I represent that constituency — resulting in the overall service sector in Waterford being quite weak and of grave concern to us in terms of economic development.

I believe that the debate on the Green Paper must focus on overall economic development because we are talking about using massive resources in our terms, how they will be allocated, how much will be provided in different areas which is vitally important.

In the context of what I have been saying about making special provision for Waterford, I understand that there will be a submission to the Minister today from the City of Waterford Vocational Education Committee along the lines on which I have been talking. I would ask her to consider that submission seriously and sympathetically.

The Deputy has advance knowledge of it; good for him.

I am sure that will not in any way influence the Minister's objective, sympathetic consideration. The principal point to be made about the provisions of section 5, to which I alluded earlier, is that all its subsections, with one exception, begin with the words "subject to such conditions as the Minister may determine,".

What worries me about this — and I do not make this comment for the benefit of the present Minister only but also for any of her successors — is that we are being asked here to take a pig in a poke, so to speak. We do not know what will be the nature of the regulations when statutory instruments are put in place to give effect to the provisions of this section. That worries me enormously because it is an enabling section and its provisions are not spelled out specifically.

I might deal now with another area which concerns me a lot, that of research and development. I totally support the Minister in what she is endeavouring to achieve. Whereas these sections allow the colleges to become involved in research and development, subject to conditions to be laid down, indeed become involved at the level of limited liability companies, my first concern would be this: suppose something goes wrong with a given project, who will be responsible? Who will be the loser? For example, if profits are made on a particular consultancy or project who will benefit in a monetary sense therefrom? Will it be the college? Will it be the staff? Indeed, in some instances, could it be the Department? For instance, if research and development work is undertaken on behalf of companies could it happen that State moneys could constitute a further subsidy to industry, that is money provided by this House for educational purposes only? In some fashion or other could that money end up being of benefit to a particular private concern, money that would have been provided for educational purposes only?

Then here is the whole question of patents. I have no doubt, with the skill and expertise available within the regional technical college, Dublin Institute of Technology sector, that considerable valuable research and consultancy work will be undertaken. But suppose a new area is defined, whether it be a product or, whatever, which has a commercial value, the question of patents will need to be addressed.

My reservations about section 5 are considerable. But they would be allayed to a great extent if the Minister, when replying or as we progress through Committee Stage, could inform us exactly what is intended, exactly what will happen in terms of the implementation of the various subsections relating to functions of colleges. That is the crucial area. Whereas the Bill seeks to give greater autonomy to the colleges, it does not do so and we do no know what may be involved.

The point has been made by trade union sources that the academic council should be democratically elected. According to the format in the Bill, the governing body of the college will appoint the council. It has been represented to me that a significant proportion of the council should be elected by their colleagues. This is a view with which I concur since it is consistent with the concept of worker participation and the exercise of democracy at the basic levels of society and its institutions.

The question arises as to whether graduates of regional technical colleges should be allowed to vote in Seanad elections. Of the six seats, three are reserved for Trinity and three for the National University of Ireland. It is discriminatory that people who have graduated from third level colleges and who can command respect for their qualifications and competence all over the world are not considered appropriate electors in Seanad elections. It is time to address that question.

The question of centralisation and the ambiguity of section 5 are of most concern to me. I should like also to know why it is not considered appropriate to appoint representatives of the vocational education committee to the college council. Then there is the whole question of accountability. The colleges must be allowed to develop by being permitted to confer degrees. This Bill will do a major disservice to the whole south east region if provision is not made for Waterford to develop to university status, the lack of which has kept Waterford from developing to the full, both academically and in the economic area. Any legislation which can contribute to reducing the unemployment problem must be used to that effect. We must think in terms of jobs in all our deliberations. We have drifted away from that since the resumption of the session. The problem of unemployment will not go away and the Minister for Education has a duty to take all possible action to remedy it. The development of a service sector in Waterford would provide initial jobs and then create spin-off jobs in the commercial sector. This would help areas in the south east like Deputy Cullimore's constituency where there is a very high level of unemployment. There is an absence of regional planning in terms of industrial and services sector development. This Bill deals with regions but it is not expansive enough to deal with the lack of infrastructural facilities.

I look forward to the Minister's response to the submission by the City of Waterford Regional Technical College. I compliment her on the spirit in which she has brought these Bills before the House and on her willingness to accept amendments if she is convinced that they will improve the Bill.

I agree with much of what Deputy O'Shea has said, particularly his opening remark regarding the Green Paper. It is a pity the Minister has postponed the issue of that document until after these Bills have been put through. I would very much like to know her overall view of the vocational sector.

With the rapid growth of the regional technical colleges and the six colleges of the Dublin Institute of Technology over the years, there has been a growing recognition of the need to put them on a statutory basis and to give them greater autonomy and academic freedom. It was felt by people on vocational education committees and local authorities that this should be done, while at the same time retaining and even increasing their democratic base and their public accountability. References by the Minister seemed to indicate that this would be so. However, the Bills are disappointing with regard to democracy and public accountability. Far from opening up the colleges and giving them free rein to develop and grow with full academic freedom, they are being tied firmly to the apron strings of the Department of Education. The colleges will have less academic freedom, possibly less than some second level schools. Certainly, they will have less flexibility and freedom than the vocational education committee second level colleges, many of which are growing at a very rapid rate and moving into the post leaving certificate area from which the regional technical colleges began. The colleges will lose their democratic base and their public accountability under this Bill.

In a press release dated 18 June last announcing the launch of these Bills, the Minister said that the 1967 report of the Steering Committee on Technical Education formed the basis for the establishment between 1970 and 1977 of the present network of regional technical colleges: She correctly went on to say that when the concept of the regional technical colleges was first announced it was in the context mainly of the provision of post-compulsory technical education and it was envisaged that courses for technical leaving certificate, apprentice training and technician training would be provided. That is precisely what the Steering Committee on Technical Education were all about. They were opposed from the very beginning to the establishment of the regional technical colleges under the aegis of the Vocational Education Committee sector. The pressure for centralised control of these colleges has existed from the very beginning. They put down this narrow restrictive base for regional technical colleges when they were formed. To their credit, all the vocational education committees totally ignored these restrictive conditions and limitations imposed on them by the Department of Education and instead provided the necessary dynamic which enabled the regional technical colleges to grow over the past few years.

The Minister in her speech said that since that time the situation has evolved to the extent that the courses run in the colleges are now mainly third level certificate and diploma, with some degree courses. She also said that the number of students in third level courses had grown dramatically. She said that "the situation has evolved". Who has evolved the situation? It is a pity the Minister will not admit that the vocational education committees——

And the colleges.

The vocational education committees through the colleges evolved the situation. It was not evolved by the Department or because of the 1967 report of the steering committee.

The Minister also made the point in the press release of 18 June that the changed nature of the activities of these institutions over the years — again she did not say who changed the nature of the activities of the institutions; the community democratic base of the colleges changed the nature of these activities — has led to concern about the limitations placed on them in having to operate under the 1930 Vocational Education Act. This concern probably arose in the Department of Education. She also referrred to the 1987 International Study Group on Technological Education as being concerned about this. The international study group of 1987 were very restrictive in their view about the development of regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology vis-à-vis universities. They recommended that regional technical colleges should be confined to certificate and diploma courses and should not be allowed to run degree courses. They also recommended that the research carried out in regional technical colleges should be confined to problem solving and they should not move into the major area of research carried out in uiversities. The international study group seemed to want to ensure that vocational sector colleges would never become a threat to universities but would remain as feeder institutions or workshops for universities.

I do not know if the Minister has been influenced by these reports, but the Department of Education have certainly been influenced by them. The section of that report dealing with vocational sector colleges alleges indecision and excessive bureaucratic control in the vocational sector. They give no basis for this statement — apparently they took it directly from a report issued by the National Board for Science and Technology some years previously. That has become the influencing factor for changing the nature of the colleges and keeping them away from this indecision and excessive bureaucratic control of the vocational sector. I find this amazing in view of the fact that these Bills propose exchanging the so-called bureaucratic control of the vocational sector for the far more excessive bureaucratic control of the Department of Education and the Minister.

The Deputy is quoting from a high level report, not from my speech.

In her speech the Minister referred to the importance of the International Study Group on Technological Education who recommended the introduction of the statutory provisions contained in these Bills.

Keep your cool.

It appears from the Minister's speech on 18 June launching these two Bills, that the recommendations of the International Study Group on Technological Education form the basis for the statutory provisions contained in the Bill.

If the Deputy was here the other night when I made my speech he would know that I said I have already——

I am quoting from what the Minister said on 18 June last.

Acting Chairman

Please, Minister, Deputy Mac Giolla has only one opportunity of speaking on the Bill. You will have the opportunity to reply. I would ask you to allow Deputy Mac Giolla to proceed without further interruption.

If the Minister wants to say that what she said on 18 June was wrong and that she has revamped the proposals that is all right——

Did the Deputy read my speech?

I am quoting from what the Minister said on 18 June.

The Deputy is not quoting from what I said in my speech the other night.

Will the Minister tell me which speech is correct? If they are all different how can I know which one is correct?

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

Order, please.

I am quoting from what the Minister said in her speech on 18 June. The fact that she may not have mentioned it since may mean she has changed her mind in that regard.

The Workers Party are highly selective in what they choose, that is their speciality.

I would be delighted to hear that the Minister has changed her mind about the report of the International Study Group on Technological Education. That report is very restrictive and the provisions of these Bills, which are also very restrictive, seem to derive from that report. The Minister has still retained the restriction which confines regional technical colleges——

This is an example of the highly selective tactics used by The Workers' Party.

Acting Chairman

The Minister should let the Deputy speak without further interruption. She was not interrupted when she was speaking.

——to running certificate and diploma courses. I wonder if the research carried out by regional technical colleges will be confined to the type of research the International Study Group on Technological Education before such colleges should be involved in. That is why I mention these factors. I am concerned at the Department's attitude to regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology from the beginning and the way in which these Bills will put more restrictions on them and bring them more firmly under the control of the Minister and her Department.

I should like to quote from a speech given by Mr. Seán Conway, President of the IVEA, at a conference on 19 October last. He said:

We take great pride in what the colleges have achieved against the odds. Compared to other sectors of higher education they have been discriminated against in an appalling manner. The cost implication of funding Vocational Education Committee colleges on a par with universities is presumably the reason the Bills don't opt for HEA designation.

The funding of Vocational Education Committee colleges is much cheaper compared to the funding of universities.

Bills or not, the funding difficulty will not go away and will have to be addressed by the Minister. In terms of priorities, I would have thought that resourcing would be the most urgent.

That is a point of major importance. Those who prepared the Bills, officials in the colleges, in the vocational education committees and on governing bodies know that unless there is adequate funding all the legislation in the world will not make the slightest difference. In fact, the effect could be to reduce the capacity of the colleges to expand and develop. I should like to quote the IVEA's view expressed in June when the Bills were published. They said:

Vocational Education Committees are responsible for creating the conditions that led to the unprecedented success of the regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology. We recognise, however, that due to their outstanding success under vocational education committees certain changes are desirable. For this reason the IVEA has stated repeatedly that it favours more autonomy for college governing bodies under the aegis of Vocational Education Committees. We have actively campaigned for that objective and for regularising the arrangements for research and consultancy.

They eagerly awaited the Bills and were very disappointed when they were published as no doubt the Minister has learned from their representatives. My interest, knowledge and expertise in this area is mainly in the Dublin Institute of Technology and the six colleges in Dublin and I will confine my remaining remark to those colleges.

The purpose of the CD Vocational Education Committee is to ensure the continued delivery of education programmes which have regard to the obligations imposed on committees under the Vocational Education Act, 1930. They are further designed to ensure an element of continued public accountability and democratic participation in the activities of the institute for technology. The Dublin Institute of Technology is a unique institution in Irish education. This uniqueness derives from its size, type and level of its courses, range of courses, its relationship with business and industry, its involvement in research and development and, particularly, its role in increasing participation rates in third level education.

The Dublin Institute of Technology comprises six constituent third level colleges and operates under the control of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee. It offers a wide range of programmes of post-graduate, degree, diploma, certificate and apprenticeship level and its work and awards have attained national and international recognition by academic, professional, industrial and business institutions and by Government and trade unions.

The institute was set up by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee in 1978 to co-ordinate the work of the six third level colleges which have a history dating back to 1887. The Dublin Institute of Technology is the largest educational institution in Ireland with a total enrolment of 24,000 students comprising 8,800 full-time students, 10,000 part-time students and over 5,000 apprenticeship and craft technician students. In the ten years since 1981 the number of full-time students has more than doubled, from a figure of 4,000 to 8,800. In 1991, 3,000 students graduated from the Dublin Institute of Technology, including 600 degree recipients.

It provides a very wide range of courses. Full-time courses are given at post-graduate, degree, professional, diploma and certificate level. There are 74 such courses, including 11 degree courses, and there are almost 9,000 full-time students. Part-time courses are provided at degree, professional, diploma and certificate level. The institute is the largest provider of part-time education in Ireland and has 10,000 students enrolled. The institute provides apprenticeship and craft technician education in the areas of engineering, catering and distribution. It is the largest provider of education in this area with an enrolment of 5,500 students. It provides 74 courses, including 11 degree courses, in the following discipline areas: architecture, building and surveying, artdesign and printing, business studies and languages, computer studies and programming, engineering, hotel catering and tourism, media studies, music, science and related fields and social studies.

Traditionally, through its part-time and short course programmes, the institute has developed a very close relationship with business and industry. More recently through its involvement in research and development, it has contributed in a very substantial way to economic development. As an example, the Dublin Institute of Technology, Kevin Street, has recently negotiated a £350,000 contract in avionics research with TEAM Aer Lingus. The institute's range of courses, and particularly its part-time and apprenticeship courses, have been a major factor in increasing participation rates in the Dublin region. This range of courses has provided opportunities to retain potential early school leavers in education at the apprenticeship and craft level and has provided second-chance education for very large numbers of people with its part-time courses.

The Dublin Institute of Technology awards its own diplomas and certificates which have also achieved international recognition by educational, professional, employer, trade union and other organisations. Currently it has 12 degree courses validated by Trinity College which effectively means graduates of these courses receive their degree awards from Trinity College.

The Directive for architects issued by the European Commission in 1985 lists the following as one of the architectural qualifications recognised in this country: "The diploma of degree standard in architecture awarded by the College of Technology, Bolton Street, Dublin..." The only academic award available here to qualify as an optician is the diploma in opthalmic optics awarded on successful completion of the four year full-time course conducted by the College of Technology, Kevin Street. This profession is the subject of special legislation of the Oireachtas relating to Bord na Radharcmastóirí. The main qualification recognised by the Department of Health in Ireland for appointment as a health inspector or an environmental health officer is the diploma in environmental health awarded on successful completion of the four year wholetime course conducted in the Dublin College of Catering.

Article 1 of the EC Directive on qualifications issued in 1988 on a general system for the recognition of higher education diplomas awarded on completion of professional education and training of at least three years duration defines an acceptable qualification for the purposes of this Directive as follows:

"Any diploma, certificate or other evidence of formal qualifications or any set of such diplomas, certificates or other evidence: — which has been awarded by a competent authority in a Member State...."

The Dublin Institute of Technology has pioneered innovative relationships with second level schools and, in particular, with second level vocational education. These relationships have provided special oportunities in Irish education to encourage students from disadvantaged backgrounds to proceed to third level education. This is a very important factor for the Dublin Institute of Technology. We have grave doubts as to whether these Bills will allow us to pursue this and continue the relationship with our second level schools and the increasing participation rates in third level education.

All of those characteristics of the Dublin Institute of Technology mean that the institute is unique not only in terms of size, it has a unique ethos. The development of this ethos has come about because of the institute's flexibility and its responsiveness to the real educational needs of the community it serves, a responsiveness which is fundamentally bound up with the role of democratically elected representatives in the vocational education committee. It is crucial that those characteristics which contributed to the unique ethos of the Dublin Institute of Technology should remain central to the institute under the new legislation.

Third level education is the area of greatest inequality in education. Nothing makes this inequality at third level clearer than the huge differences in funding for the higher education authority sector as against the funding for the vocational sector, which is the poor relation in third level education. The Lindsay report acknowledged that the enrolment of full-time students in third level vocational education committees had increased by 16 per cent between 1986-87 and 1988-89. During this period the budgetary allocation to these colleges was reduced by nearly 10 per cent in real terms, following two series of cuts. The Lindsay report acknowledged that the vocational education committee sector colleges had many deficiencies including the lack of non-teaching staff and support services and that their operating costs per student were at least £1,000 below those in the higher education authority sector colleges.

The only specific commitment given to third level education in the 1991 budget was the confirmation of an increased level of support for the university sector. The Minister stated that the Government would continue their policy of increasing third level intake of students by at least 1,200 again this year. Under this provision the universities are provided with an allocation of £1,000 in respect of each additional student and they are also allowed to retain their students tuition fees of £1,500 approximately per student, giving them a total additional recurring income of some £2,500 per student. They were also provided with £3 million for minor capital works as well as the sum of £350,000 in 1990 to strengthen their science technology and research capability. It was reported that in total the value of the package to the university sector was of the order of £50 million over four years.

The Minister gave some interesting quantitative data on the progress of the universities and the vocational education committee sectors between the 1986-87 and 1989-90 sessions. In real terms, the enrolment in the higher education authority sector increased by 4,073, an increase of 12.2 per cent, from 33,443 to 37,516 pupils. In the same period vocational education committee third level enrolments increased by 4,506, an increase of 23 per cent from 19,550 to 24,056. Hence, over those four years in absolute terms the increase in the vocational education committee third level sector enrolments was over 10 per cent greater than that achieved by the universities. When it came to making additional budgetary provision, all the money was targeted to the higher education authority sector, leaving nothing for the vocational education committees.

That is not true. What about the European Regional Development Fund funds? The Deputy is being selective. It is typical Workers' Party policy.

These statistics were provided by the Minister for Education in written response to a Dáil question on 12 February 1991.

Did you ask me about European Regional Development Fund funding?

Are you disputing the figures?

You asked a selective question and got a selective answer. This is typical Workers' Party selectivity.

This was a response by the Minister on 12 February 1991 showing the huge increase in the number of students in the vocational education committee sector as compared with the increase in the higher education authority sector and the total lack of funding to cater for the increased number of students. The higher education authority sector gobbled up the lot.

The European Regional Development Fund funding was not mentioned.

There are six colleges involved in this Bill, but with regard to the College of Music, Chatham Row, there is this proviso: "in so far as pertains to such courses of study as may be deemed by the Minister to be courses of higher education". I hope the Minister will eliminate that proviso. I will explain why. This is the very basis for flexibility of the whole vocational education committee system. The principal of the College of Music, Mr. Frank Heneghan said:

The College of Music happily houses, without any apparent confrontation or uncomfortable juxtapositions, aspiring beginners as well as full professionals and this scenario is enshrined in current policies. The college thus provides the perfect justification for that integration of so-called apprenticeship and professional courses which the Dublin Institute of Technology espouses.

There are 2,500 in the college which has 125 teachers, which is 86 full-time equivalents. Pupils are admitted from the age of five upwards. The average age in the College of Music is 15, yet 40 per cent to 45 per cent of the work of the college is third level, that is, post-leaving certificate level. This Bill will be very restrictive rather than progressive. Under the Minister's restrictive conditions in this Bill Mozart would not qualify for——

You would not call a five-year-old a third level student.

Will the Minister allow me to complete what I am saying? Mozart would not qualify for third level education in the College of Music in Chatham Row.

One could hardly call a five-year-old a third level student.

Would the Minister allow me to finish and then she can go on and talk about her five-year-olds or babies, or whatever she likes. If the Minister allows me to finish the argument she will see that she is the one who is not allowing the State schools to develop music for five-year-olds upwards and that that is why the College of Music has to provide music education for them. The Minister has totally neglected her responsibility in the area of music in the State schools throughout the country.

Selective Workers' Party policy.

I will quote again from a booklet produced by the principal of the College of Music, "Dublin Institute of Technology Legislation and the College of Music":

Unlike many third-level subjects it cannot be taught ab initio from a school-leaving age, due to the quasiathletic skills required. It is, therefore, quite normal, particularly in the case of gifted children, to demand the development of superior instrumental skills at a very early age; In fact it is a síne qua non for subsequent professional success. Note that the correlation of age and rudimentary training in any subject is, in any case, a vulnerable criterion in defining third level education (compare, e.g., language classes or classes in new technology, at basic level, in polytechnics and universities) ... The existence of a primary and second-level component in the College is not only a direct result of the non-provision of instrumental music education in schools——

Minister, it is a result of the non-provision of instrumental music education in schools run by you, Minister. This is reported in a book entitled "Deaf Ears", which got wide coverage a couple of years back, and can hardly be blamed on the college of music.

It is also an essential element in the process of self-generation. Without a junior school the College would currently be starved of its supply of senior students.

That is an important point, Minister. Without a junior school the college would currently be starved of its supply of senior students because they are not coming through the normal State education system that they should be coming through. Therefore, the college of music must have its junior school, coming through to the senior

This is the single most significant and disturbing characteristic of the Irish music education system which must be faced. The supply of suitable third-level applicants should, ideally, come mainly from state schools.

Unfortunately that is not happening.

Over the past twelve years the College has developed a musicianship (awareness, literacy, appreciation) programme which would be adaptable to school use, should the situation improve....

In other words, should the Minister develop music teaching in schools, the college of music has a course specially adapted for that purpose.

It is also producing secondary school teachers with instrumental skills.

The Dublin College of Music is producing the teachers and, as the principal says:

The college has already, therefore, prepared for its own partial expendability at the lower levels of music training.

However, that has not happened yet, so it still requires its junior school which is absolutely essential. The principle also says:

It should be noted, however, that all the main conservatories (academies and colleges) in Britain, (R.A.M., R.C.M., Royal Northern, Royal Glasgow and Birmingham) have junior schools, without adversely affecting their predominently third-level operation; in fact it is quite the contrary. It should also be noted particularly that Dublin Institute of Technology has a very large second-level education scheme within its apprenticeship sector.

I would ask the Minister again, in putting forward an amendment, to eliminate that piece in brackets and, when listing the colleges simply to put down "College of Music, Chatham Row". that is all it would require. You do not have to say anything or do anything about the junior element, about five year olds or 45 year olds or 70 year olds, and there are 70 year olds in the College of Music.

It is you who are mentioning them.

You do not even have to think about the ages. All you have to do is just put down "College of Music, Chatham Row"——

How simple life would be.

——and allow the flexibility without these departmental restrictions where everything is tied up with age limits and God only knows what other limits. That is what I fear about all the regional technical colleges, the Department's attitudes and restrictions and limitations and that is just the proof of it——

Have you not a thought of your own?

They want to decide on an age. If it is not five, what is the age? What age must you be to be regarded as third level by the Minister, since the Minister is going to decide whether you are third level or not?

Have you any thought of your own?

Have you an age at which you decide they will be third level?

Have you any thoughts of your own?

You agree that it is not five year olds, do you not?

I do, of course.

What age have you in mind?

I have never heard of a five year old as a third level student.

Have you got any age in mind, Minister? Is it 25?

It is not five.

It is not. Is it 25, or is it 15?

It is certainly not five.

It is not five.

You have no idea, Minister. Would you make up your mind because when you are dealing with this college——

The only ideas you have are what you have been fed.

When you refuse to give a musical education to the five year olds——

Fed, fed, fed.

——and you are now trying to prevent the college of music from doing that——

No, but you are.

——and from having the one college where they decide what age is third level——

You are trying to limit the college of music.

You are going to put restrictions on third level because you have not even thought this out at all, Minister.

You are trying to limit the college of music.

Minister and Deputy, may I speak?

Acting Chairman

I would ask the Deputy to address his remarks to the Chair.

What about the Minister?

Acting Chairman

I would ask the Deputy, as it is normal practice, to address his remarks to the Chair.

I am very disappointed, Chairman. I have been speaking and the Minister started to interrupt me; now you are telling me that I am wrong. Have you the guts to turn around and tell the Minister to keep her mouth shut——

He would not be so rude.

——and she will have a second chance to come in when I am finished.

Acting Chairman

Could I ask the Deputy to please continue his remarks through the Chair.

I am speaking to the Chair. Could you ask the Minister to keep silent while I am speaking and wait until she has her chance to come back in and make whatever remarks she can?

Acting Chairman

I think the Deputy is encouraging the Minister to interrupt.

It is not very difficult.

I am not encouraging anybody.

Acting Chairman

I would ask the Deputy to please continue and address his remarks through the Chair.

I would ask the Chair to be impartial as you are expected to be when you are sitting in that chair.

Acting Chairman

I am asking the Deputy to continue with his remarks through the Chair.

I will continue with my debate through the Chair but I would expect that you would have every other Deputy in the House doing it as well and that you will have nobody shouting at me. I expect that you will do that.

You are to shout at me but I am not to shout back? Well, did you ever?

I, Chairperson, have been speaking; I was not shouting at anybody.

Indeed you were.

I was speaking here. The Minister interrupted me.

Oh dear, dear.

You then proceeded to bawl me off, Chairman.

Typical WP. You can say what you like but we cannot hit back.

For God sake, Minister, you will have your second chance when it is finished. You are very upset this morning. I do not know what it is about you but——

Acting Chairman

I again appeal to the Deputy to refrain from making remarks——

Deputy Mac Giolla, you are very upset, are you not?

Acting Chairman

I appeal to the Deputy to continue. I am speaking to the Deputy——

And I am speaking to the Chair.

Acting Chairman

I am entitled to speak without interruptions, if I may.

You are entitled to speak without interruptions.

Acting Chairman

When I am standing, the courtesy of Deputies in this House means they should cease speaking. I am here and I am trying to Chair the debate as best I can. I am not normally in the Chair. I find that the Deputy is encouraging the Minister to interrupt and I am asking the Deputy to make his remarks through the Chair and not directly to the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, at this stage one does not know where to go to look for redress. I am speaking to you and I expect that if the Minister interrupts that you will ask the Minister also to speak through the Chair. Will you do that, please, Chairperson? It would make everything very nice and pleasant.

As I said, I am concerned about the restriction on the college of music, particularly in view of the fact that the Minister has evaded her responsibility to provide musical education in the State schools throughout the country so there are then no feeder schools from junior schools around the country into the college of music. Therefore, the college of music must provide its own junior level and must have flexibility in deciding ages and structures and everything else in the college in regard to who is and is not ready for third level without restrictions from the Minister or her Department. No restriction should be put on the college of music in that area, as seems to be the intention of this Bill. The Minister, it seems, is to decide who and at what age a person is qualified to be regarded as third level in the college of music.

That brings us to the question of apprenticeships which is not mentioned in the Bill. As I have informed the House, 5,500 students attend apprenticeship courses in the craft and technician area in the Dublin Institute of Technology, yet the Minister listed the six colleges without once mentioning apprenticeships. May I ask the Minister what she has in mind with regard to apprenticeships in the Dublin Institute of Technology? Apprenticeship courses have been provided in the Institute since it was founded. These provide vital education to apprentices and the possibility to go on to do craft and technician courses, including engineering if necessary in third level colleges. As a result they have been of enormous help in increasing the participation rates of working class children in third level education.

The most vital element of the Dublin Institute of Technology is the connection between second level schools and third level colleges and apprenticeships. Yet the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill has been produced by a Minister who does not seem to know that 5,500 apprentices are being catered for by the institute. She has given them no recognition, good, bad or indifferent. She has not mentioned that they exist or what is to be done with them.

They are there.

Do they count in the education system? They are only little apprentices and technicians. They are not in higher orders of the HEA sector. What does the future hold for them?

It might be with FÁS.

That is the question, Deputy. Is that what the Minister has in mind? I happen to be a member of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee——

I would never have guessed.

——and of the board of management of Bolton Street College and neither of those committees have heard anything about what will happen in the apprenticeships area. A national apprenticeship committee has been set up without the CD Vocational Education Committee or Bolton Street being consulted. We hear everything secondhand and wonder what the national apprenticeship committee are going to do. Is it intended that the Department of Labour will take over responsibility for the apprenticeship sector from the Minister for Education? I would like the Minister for Education to tell me if she has any interest in apprenticeships and if she would be satisfied to see the Department of Labour take over responsibility for apprenticeships, leaving the educational aspects out.

Is it now our view of apprentices that they should become skilled in trades, take up a job and remain stuck in it for the rest of their lives in some blind alley with no possibility of advancement? Are they to go through a two year FÁS course in blocklaying or woodwork with no education being provided or no possibility of advancement to craft technician, engineering or any other third level course? That is what the Dublin Institute of Technology under the CD Vocational Education Committee provide for apprentices at present. It is time that apprentices and many other people woke up to what happens. Even we do not know what is happening, but the Minister does. If she has any interest in apprentices she will know that they are to be taken out of the education system and transferred to the FÁS training system, which has nothing at all to do with education and the development of the person which forms part of apprenticeship training at present. This will prove destructive in terms of growth and development in the apprenticeships area where the possibility of third level education can be provided for young people who take up apprenticeships. The Minister will be very lacking if she does not take a look at what the Minister for Labour is doing at present.

I had better watch him.

He is possibly attempting to grab it from the Department of Education and we have not heard a squeak from the Minister for Education.

We have not heard a word from the Minister for Education on apprenticeships during the past few years while the Minister for Labour——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is encouraging the Minister to interrupt.

I am stating a fact.

It is not a fact, it is not true.

I am stating it as a fact that I have never heard a squeak from the Minister for Education on apprenticeships——

——and I have been involved with the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee since I became a Member of this House.

I have never met the Deputy at any of the events organised for apprentices.

Developments are taking place very rapidly in the apprenticeship area; yet, the Minister has not mentioned them in the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill. That is a source of worry for me.

The Deputy has no interest in them

I have to state in the House that I am very worried about what is happening in the apprenticeship area.

The Deputy has no interest in them.

The Dublin Institute of Technology deals with 5,500 apprentices; yet the Minister has not one word to say about them.

The Deputy has no interest in them.

Apparently, the Minister for Labour has had a plan to place them with FÁS for the past couple of years. I do not know if the Minister knows about this or not but if she does——

The Deputy has no interest in them.

——as I said, I have not heard a squeak out of her.

Not true. The Deputy has never turned up, not even once, at an apprenticeships award ceremony.

I have not heard a squeak out of her about whether she agrees or disagrees——

Acting Chairman

I rise to speak again even though I know I will find it difficult to get Deputies to co-operate, but I have to say that from time to time the Deputy is encouraging the Minister to reply. In the course of his address he continually asks "May I ask the Minister this or may I ask the Minister that" but he is only encouraging the Minister to reply. Having said that I appeal both to the Minister and the Deputy to allow the debate to continue without interruption.

I am glad that you have come around to my point of view at last. I have almost completed my contribution.

I would have completed it ten or 15 minutes ago but I got the adrenalin going again.

We want to keep the dabate going all day.

As I said at the outset, there is a need to increase the rate at which we are democratising education. I stated in an article in the magazine Decision-maker my views on the Education Act, that that was the only Act we had and the vocational education sector was the only sector where everybody, community and parents, is involved. I would like to see all sectors of the education system — primary, second level and third level — democratised. I also mentioned the local education committees — the Minister will recall this proposal which seems to have been dropped — who could co-operate with and not supersede the vocational education committees. These could number six, eight or ten, be smaller than local authorities and deal with education on a regional basis. It is a matter of concern that this Bill seems to be doing the reverse in that it will remove third level colleges firmly from democratic control and public accountability. Despite the fact that the Minister has said that she wishes to retain the link with vocational education committees, I firmly believe that, without amendments, democratic control will be lost. The amendments would relate to apprenticeship education — in section 5 (1) I should like to add “including appenticeship education”. I should also like an amendment in relation to the need to confer degrees because I am not happy with the Minister's idea that a provision of this kind can be by ministerial decree. Why not now? What is the objection?

We are not on Committee Stage now.

Why should all these colleges not be given the power to confer degrees? There is an excellent arrangement in Dublin and I commend Trinity College and the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee for the arrangement. Nevertheless, it is Trinity degrees which are being conferred, not those from the Dublin Institute of Technology. I cannot see any reason for regional technical colleges not being able to confer degrees.

There is also a need to put a clause in the Bill to try to promote equality of opportunity in education. I suggest it should be in section 7, or wherever the Minister thinks fit. There is a need, in regard to the academic council area, to have a phrase in regard to protecting, maintaining and developing academic standards. The provision in regard to Chatham Row should also be deleted. These are the main areas regarding which amendments will be tabled, and I am sure that the Minister on rereading the Bill will table substantial amendments.

The amendments will be as a result of my own thoughts.

I welcome these two Bills and I compliment the Minister on bringing them before the House. I do so for a number of reasons, first, the Bills mark a long overdue and realistic assessment of what used to be termed vocational education. For many years this sector seemed to exist at the fringes of educational planning because success at school was largely measured in terms of academic performance as opposed to technical and apprenticeship training, which the vocational education committee offered. Accordingly, as I remember from my own days, the former was called secondary schooling and the vocational education committee was popularly regarded as technical schooling. This was not merely semantics, because in the popular mind the two types of school also differentiated between the degrees of how people often defined success. For a long time success was tied to academic subjects and, at third level, just as at second level, the so-called technical side was for a long time treated in second class terms. However, since 1987, thanks primarily to the type of policies which are reflected in the Bill, there is neither an academic nor technical emphasis but an association of the two.

This brings me to my second reason for supporting the Bill. The days are gone when at second or third level there is a defined strategy — much less a closed definition — for educational success. I want to praise the Minister in this regard. As we move towards a new Green Paper and Education Bill, I know that the Minister is not a prisoner of any view as to how things should proceed. I accept that she wants to promote, in the words of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress,“an educational system for the future well-being of the country as well as its role in the country's economic development”. In this regard she is proceeding with the widest possible consultation. One of the hallmarks of the Minister for Education is her ability and desire to communicate and consult the various interested parties in education.

These Bills reflect the more open sentiments which recognise the present realities as well as future potential and opportunities. In May 1989 these sentiments were also reflected in the historic Bills which the Minister introduced to grant university status to National Institute of Higher Education, Limerick and National Institute of Higher Education, Dublin. The Bills before the House today are no less significant in that they place the various functions specified in section 5 on a statutory basis.

I wish to confine the remainder of my remarks to the Regional Technical Colleges Bill. Section 5 recites a catalogue of legislative proposals and functions, but it also reflects just how far the so-called vocational sector has changed education. Since 1930 this sector has been governed by the Vocational Act of that year; but of course in 1991 the provisions of this Act, which were designed with second level education in mind, are clearly inappropriate to regional technical colleges. I know that even when I was a student in Waterford Regional College in the early seventies the old Act of the thirties was outdated.

I was particularly impressed with two points which the Minister made in her speech. She spoke of the importance of the regional technical college for encouraging local initiative, enterprise and development. She also spoke of the role of regional technical colleges in promoting part time and second chance education. I should like to refer to a point made by a Deputy from Waterford who referred to the need to upgrade the Waterford Regional Technical College which has made a great impact on the area and indeed on the whole south-east. I should like to develop that point a little further and to talk about the Outreach courses. Not only is substantial money needed for the future development of the Waterford Regional Technical College, but we must also look at Outreach courses, particularly in counties like Wexford.

I agree with the Minister's sentiments in each of these areas because they reflect a commitment to make maximum use of local resources as well as making them available for local needs. As I mentioned, our educational system must be relevant and practical, not so much in the sense that it must be related to particular subjects or courses but in the sense that it must not exclude anything — it must be open and everything must be on the table. That is what was wrong under the old system; it excluded too much. The Bill reverses this and it brings me to a third focus: the scope which it provides for better interaction between the regional technical college on one hand and regional business and industry on the other.

Recently in this House I spoke about the need for a local approach and to involve communities in solving unemployment. For far too long we have looked at one big factory as solving the economic needs of our constituency. I hope that the regional colleges will play a major role in providing research and development assistance to communities so that they can create much needed jobs. The Bill before us is part of this process. It provides a statutory basis for all sorts of courses, full-time and part-time, and encourages and promotes research and consultancy and development work. There was a time when the number of places for such courses was very restrictive. In the mid-eighties many third-level students were forced to go to British universities or even to opt out of the system altogether because no places were available here even though these students were qualified for a third level place here.

As the Minister indicated in Cork last Saturday, the Government have reversed this position. By providing even more third level places the proposed Bills will ensure that our well educated young people will be given every opportunity to contribute to the economic recovery of their regions. While regional technical colleges can facilitate their regions by developing their role as regional educational institutes, this role must be complemented by the development of a network of what I would call supplementary satellites or approved out-centres. These would be centres in which instruction leading to third level qualifications would be provided outside of but in association with and under the supervision of the regional college. Some of the courses would be provided within the regional technical college, thus offering access to expensive equipment, library and college facilities and so on. For the remainder of the courses postprimary school rooms which are at present under-used could be taken up.

There would be no major capital investment involved in this process. The students would be able to live at home, largely obviating the necessity of living in expensive accommodation away from home. This would be particularly helpful to students in out-lying areas. In reference to the Regional Technical College in Waterford it would be of great benefit to places such as Kilkenny, Wexford and Carlow. It would also conform with Government policy of decentralisation and would help counties on the periphery of major centres of industry. I would include Waterford as one such centre, and Wexford, being on the periphery, would benefit. It is important that this Bill address these problems and provide greater resources for outlying areas such as Wexford and Kilkenny.

In addition, there are many teachers available at local level who could participate in these courses. A weekly or fortnightly visit to institutions such as the regional technical colleges would be necessary and this could be facilitated by the regional colleges. I suggest to the Minister that such out-centres could be set up on a pilot basis under the terms of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill. In Wexford the town and county Vocational Education Committees are anxious to provide third level places on an outcentre basis. In April of last year the Wexford committees invited Dr. Patrick Clancy, the author of Who Goes to College, to address a meeting. At that meeting there was general agreement among educationists, parents and public representatives that the most effective and least expensive way to increase participation in third level education is by way of the provision of out-centres.

As a concrete expression of the desire to do something about this, within the last month Wexford Vocational Education Committee have embarked on providing, by way of part-time tuition, a diploma in business studies in association with and under the supervision of Waterford Regional Technical College. Under this system students attend Wexford vocational school two evenings a week and on alternate Saturdays they attend Waterford Regional Technical College. The teachers who give the lectures in Wexford are from the area and are employed by the local committee, while the teachers in Waterford are employed by Waterford Regional Technical College. This joint venture is working so well that the committee in Wexford are contemplating initiating a further course in September 1992.

All this points to the potential that is hinted at in section 5 (1) (d) of the Bill. However, I would like to see the scope of such out-centres spelled out in this section. We must be more specific about what out-centres entail, the finance available and how they can be encouraged and developed. As proposed, the Bill does not give credit to all institutions as only a limited number are named in the First Schedule.

I would like to make two other brief points. The first relates to paragraph 3 of the Second Schedule which provides that membership of the governing body be confined to those under 70 years of age. I have great reservations about giving legislative effect and status to the view that people over an identified age are not and will not be in a position to contribute to such bodies as those proposed. Whatever about one's view that people of such an age are sometimes neither inclined nor able to contribute, there are those who could make a contribution and that should be provided for. We need only recall the great contribution of Dr. Tom Murphy since his retirement as president of UCD. Dr. Murphy has chaired two important educational reviews. I would ask the Minister to delete this section with specific mention of age. It is not appropriate because many people over 70 years of age make a major contribution to the development of this country and the Minister should not put a legislative barrier between Irish education and such expertise.

Finally, I want to refer briefly to section 20 of this Bill and to the proposals to monitor "the efficiency of instruction given in the college". This strikes me as being a very radical approach and it brings me back to what I said at the outset, that there is need to ensure that all third level colleges are accountable to their regions and their students in terms of quality and control and ultimately to the taxpayer. This Bill meets that need. It is no less historic than the Acts which have given new status to the National Institutes of Higher Education. I welcome the Bills and compliment the Minister on introducing them. I wish both Bills a speedy passage through the House.

My main contribution will relate to the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991. In one way I am sorry the Minister has left the House but I am pleased also in that I will not be interrupted in the same way as was Deputy Mac Giolla when making his contribution. I would like to quote from a press release of 18 June 1991 in which the Minister states: "The Bills are very comprehensive and do all that is necessary to give the institutions great autonomy and freedom in the conduct of their day-to-day activities, which is in keeping with the state of development the institutions have reached and the potential they have to contribute to our educational, technological and economic development". The aim as expressed by the Minister in that quotation is very laudable but the product in the form of the Bill is an inept attempt to swop vocational education committee control for ministerial control and to impose unnecessary and restrictive controls on educational initiatives which have been evolving for approximately 100 years.

There are two points in particular that I wish to pursue in relation to this Bill — first, the idea of autonomy and, second, the idea of academic integrity. A number of speakers mentioned the idea of autonomy and I shall consider it now. The Minister would lead us to believe that the Bill gives greater autonomy to the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges. If this is so, why does the Minister find it necessary to mention on at least sixty-one occasions expressions of her control, with phrases like "subject to such conditions as the Minister may determine"? The Minister's finger is everywhere in the Bill. It makes one wonder if one is not looking at a hidden agenda. For example, why not allow the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges to award degrees? Why omit references to apprenticeship training as a function of the institute? Why so much ministerial and Department of Education interference in the day-to-day affairs of the institute? Why is the phrase "higher education" slipped in in relation to the College of Music? Why does the Minister impose herself on the academic council? These are very important and fundamental questions which I hope the Minister will address in her reply to Second Stage debate.

Under the Bill as it stands the governing body will not have autonomy in the following vital areas: course provision, research and consultancy and exploitation of same; co-operation with other institutions; awards, grants and scholarships; management of college assets; conditions of appointment, staff appointments and student admissions; furthering the objectives and development of the colleges. Under the provisions of the Bill the vocational education committee lose everything apart from a few nominal items such as to act as trustee to college land presently owned by the vocational education committee and to receive annual college programmes, budget and audit.

The question must be asked: is the vocational education committee to be held responsible for the financial affairs of the institute over which it will have no control whatsoever? One must ask also why there is a change of auditor from the local government auditor to the Comptroller and Auditor General? One must question the Minister's new powers, which include the power to order a college to refrain from providing a course or courses and or service or services; to appoint the governing body; to appoint the chairperson of the governing body; to determine the functions of the governing body; to dismiss the governing body; to replace the governing body; to determine the composition of selection boards; to determine the procedure for making appointments; to dismiss staff; to determine conditions for ancillary and support staff; to make regulations regarding the operation of the college; to control the arrangements for student admissions; to determine what reports a vocational education committee may receive; to include any vocational education committee education establishment in the provisions of the Bill. Let us contrast this with the stated aim of the Minister "to give institutions greater autonomy and freedom in the conduct of their day-to-day activities ...". The Minister will be, in effect, the director of the institute, which I understand is a full-time job.

I will now deal with my second point, namely, academic integrity. To begin with it should be made clear to one and all that the Dublin Institute of Technology have an academic council, which, by the way, is far superior to that proposed in the Bill. What is the function of an academic council? The general function of an academic council should be to protect, maintain and develop the academic standards of the courses and activities of the institute and to promote academic development. More specifically, an academic council should determine the norms and standards for the institute; assess, review and validate the institute's courses; establish boards of studies and nominate assessors, both internal and external; make recommendations for the award of degrees; regulate examinations; appoint internal and external examiners; decide on appeals; promote research and set the requirements for student admission. The above list is not totally comprehensive but it covers all the most important functions.

It is true to say that some of the above are included in the Bill before us, but the Minister fusses about telling the governing body how to appoint the academic council, who should be a member and how long they should serve on it. Surely this is the real day-to-day work that any governing body worth its salt is perfectly capable of handling without being held by the hand. Does the Minister have the same power in relation to universities — for example, UCD or any other university? Would they stand for such ridiculous petty interference? This is what academic integrity is all about. Indeed, if that was not bad enough, the Minister imposes herself on the academic council, as in section 11 (3) (e). On top of that she fails to make any reference to internal and external examiners. One gets the impression of a singular lack of understanding of what an academic council should do.

All of this ties in with my earlier premise that the Minister fails to comprehend the evolution of the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges into what they are today. She fails to understand the way the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee responded to the social needs and aspirations of the countless thousands of Dubliners over many decades. Dublin Institute of Technology is not, nor does it want to be, as far as I understand, nor should it be another university. The institute does not cater for higher education students only, but one suspects this is what the Minister has in mind. The institute caters for 9,000 full-time students at post graduate degree, professional and diploma levels. There are a total of 74 courses, including 12 degree courses; 10,000 part-time students — indeed, it is the largest provider of part-time education in Ireland at a variety of levels — it has 5,500 apprenticeships and craft technician students in engineering, catering and distribution areas. The institute is the largest provider of apprenticeship education — indeed, Deputy Mac Giolla referred to this. Above all, the institute has provided opportunities at third level and post secondary level for more students from disadvantaged backgrounds than any other college I know of. We should not lose sight of this most important point if we are to consider ourselves a caring society.

I have referred already to a hidden agenda. In conclusion, may I comment on the possible dangers, that may arise from a combination of these Bills, a recent innovation by the Department of Labour and a recent decision by the Minister for Education? For the reasons I have stated already I have serious reservations about the value of this Bill as it stands. The objective as stated clearly, as opposed to those hidden in the wording of the Bill could be achieved much more readily and effectively by amending section 21 of the Vocational Education Act, 1930. My greatest fear is that the Dublin Institute of Technology will in future be an academic university and that the vast number of second chance students will be left behind and forgotten. Undoubtedly, the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, or its successor will have to start all over again and re-invent the wheel.

Recently, as Deputy Mac Giolla mentioned, the Minister for Labour through FÁS set up a national apprenticeship committee. Bearing in mind that the Dublin Institute of Technology educates 5,500 apprentices and that there is no place on this committee for a representative of either Dublin Institute of Technology or the the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, one can only conclude that the aim of the exercise is to switch apprentices from Dublin Institute of Technology to this new committee. This action defies logic. That, sadly, does not mean it will not happen; but it does mean that a large section of the students of the Dublin Institute of Technology not involved in higher educatin will have to go. This could yet be another step in turning Dublin Institute of Technology into an academic university. Before I leave this point may I ask the Minister for Education what she is up to. What is the Minister for Labour up to? It would appear in the latter case that there is a touch of jobs for the boys. However, in the case of the Minister of Education I am baffled. Why get rid of such a valuable asset — our young craftsmen-tradesmen? What is the hidden agenda?

In the original draft form, the Bill did not include the College of Music but it was later put in with the rider, only in so far as it pertains to such courses at "higher Education" level. Why include it here? Why not in Bolton Street, Kevin Street, Rathmines, Cathal Brugha Street of the College of Marketing and Design? Was it put in as a wedge to get rid of nonhigher education courses in other colleges at a later date? If that is the case then the Bill as it stands is a very bad Bill, a dangerous Bill, a Bill that actually undermines education and educational aspirations, especially those of disadvantaged people in our society, many of whom I represent.

It has been most gratifying to hear Waterford Regional College receive such an airing here this morning, both from my colleague from Waterford, Deputy O'Shea, and from Deputy Cullimore from Wexford. Indeed Deputy Cullimore and I were in Waterford Regional College in the same year. The college is very important to the development of the south-eastern region.

The presentation of the Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991, and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, 1991, is an extremely important step forward in allowing the colleges concerned to continue their development. To a large extent a layer of bureaucracy is being removed and more freedom is being allowed to the colleges to express themselves and indeed they are being given a chance to show what they can do. I contend that the more vibrant colleges involved will perform extremely well as a result of this legislation, but others may suffer and lose a certain amount of the reputation they may have at present. To a certain extent many of our regional colleges are insulated and protected too much and that is why I believe that those who are not geared up for the challenges ahead may suffer somewhat from what is being proposed. However, it would be wrong to deny the better and more ambitious colleges because of the deficiencies among some of their competitors. They are competitors, because all will be competing for the student pool; and obviously the colleges that have a better academic record will be most likely to attract the greater part of that student pool. It will also put the regional colleges into the position at which, for the first time, they can compete with the universities.

I intend to restrict my comments in the course of my contribution to reference to the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and its implications for the various regions. In common wih other developing countries Ireland is experiencing major structural transformations affecting what is produced, how production is organised and where production actually takes place. Broadly, those changes have resulted in a simultaneous shift from employment in agriculture and industry to an emphasis on employment growth in services and replacement of blue collar and unskilled occupations by highly skilled, professional and managerial workers. Thus, between 1971 and 1981, 78 per cent of all employment growth was in the service sector and white collar occupations accounted for 81 per cent of all new jobs created. At the same time Ireland has experienced a dramatic shift of population and employment in favour of urban areas, especially Dublin.

As industry becomes more technologically sophisticated and as service and information functions become specialised there is an inevitable tendency for firms to locate in or near centres of excellence in the field of information, research, higher education and decision-making functions. Thus, not surprisingly, from 1971 to 1981 and again from 1981 to 1984 the eastern region and Dublin, with its vast array of information related functions and services, attracted a growing share of new white collar service jobs. The Dublin area also attracted much of the new high technology industry because of its need for proximity to research facilities and higher education institutions.

Thus the shift towards service activities, information economy and high technology industry is intensifying into regional disparities and imposing increased costs on society. Meanwhile regional centres lacking in higher education and research opportunities are increasingly bypassed by industries and services and are in danger of suffering irreversible decline at least in relative terms. It is now widely accepted that the presence of a higher education institution offering a wide range of degree and postgradute opportunities is one of the key elements in a regional development strategy of relevance to the late 20th century. The importance of higher education institutions in regional development strategies can be seen particularly because of the benefits to a region from local expenditure on higher education and also the resultant regional income multiplier benefits deriving from increased purchasing power in that region.

While the importance of education in regional economic growth has long been recognised and quantified, few institutions of higher education have been developed for the purpose of meeting regional needs. However, there is now abundant evidence that such institutions can have profound benefit for the general development of the host region and its population. The underlying theory suggests that investment in education is a prior condition for the development of high level, technology based industry and services. In turn, technologically based activities depend upon brainpower for their raw material and thus require a sophisticated infrastructure linked to higher education facilities. The interrelationship of technology and education is seen as the major instrument for the modernisation of communities and their regions.

Education can be viewed as the mechanism which enables the national use and organisation of other factors of production, that is, land, labour and capital. In short, higher education is seen as a catalyst in the regional economy, bringing down the intellectual infrastructure for technological developmennt, modernising the social fabric and changing the pattern of cultural consumption. Neave has suggested that higher education

should act as a stimulus to the economic circuit bringing a new injection of capital into the region and by bringing highly skilled personnel such as teachers, researchers and administrators, who constitute the prime element from which the intellectual infrastructures are built and by which it is expanded.

Much of Ireland's research and development is university based and indeed many new firms are now funding university research, which has also seen new electronic firms gravitating towards cities and towns with the better third level institutions. This has seen the growth of many technology parks and the development of business and enterprise centres. This, in particular, is what I meant earlier when I said that regional colleges would now be in a position to compete with universities as a result of this Bill.

This is clearly encompassed in section 5 of the Bill, which makes provision for the colleges to engage in research, consultancy and development work, either separately or with other institutions, to provide services in relation to such work and to enter into arrangements to exploit such work. Activity in the research and consultancy and other industry-linked areas, for which the colleges have currently no statutory authorisation, have become increasingly important in recent years. Many new opportunities are now going to be opened up for our regional colleges. Speaking about my own regional college in Waterford I have often been disappointed at the large sums of money being expended in some of the universities on research and development projects which might now be attracted to the regional college. This Bill gives the college authorities the opportunity to compete for corporate spending on research and development in a much more meaningful way than they could do up to now. There is little doubt that centres of excellence in higher education promote growth in the region through their output of specialised knowledge and that they enhance a region's capacity to attract outside resources.

There was a general consensus on higher education that continual expansion was necessary to meet the growth in numbers in search of higher education and also to ensure that Ireland has the educated and skilled labour to enable us compete as the world enters the post-industrial era of high technology and service industry. Indeed, this consensus was reflected in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress under which provision is made for additional third level places here. The 1980 White Paper on Educational Development foresaw an increase in third level education enrolments from 33,100 in 1975-76 to 51,000 in 1990-91. Emphasis was placed on the need for the various institutions to play complementary and supportive roles. The White Paper dealt extensively with the regional technical colleges stating that the time was ripe for having some formal mechanism to review their operations in the light of the purposes for which they were founded. This review is now taking place as a result of the colleges Bills now before us.

It is timely that we should be discussing these measures now because over the last few years the youth population bulge has begun to work its way into third level. It will take another ten years or so for the high birth rates to work their way right through that sector. After the year 2,000 only will the falling birth rate begin to result in a reduction of pressure on third level places. Obviously, the quality of the places on offer must be of as high a standard as possible. This Bill gives the present regional colleges sector an opportunity to achieve that goal.

While the Vocational Education Act, 1930 has served its purpose its provisions outlived their usefulness a couple of years ago. There has been a definite need to introduce some legislation more appropriate to what regional colleges are doing at present than what they were doing when first set up in 1970. The universities are governed under the Universities Act, 1908. While this Bill does not go anywhere near giving regional colleges the autonomy that universities enjoy, nevertheless in some respects, particularly in relation to governing bodies, academic councils and so on it does mirror part of that legislation. The idea of setting up an academic council is to be welcomed.

I realise that to date a regional college could set up its own academic council on a non-statutory basis, if it so wished. It is often difficult to generate the correct enthusiasm or support for such a body when it is not statutorily based. In this case, as indeed is the case with the main universities, it is enshrined in legislation that such a council should be formed. Such a council will have a key role to play in the future policies and development of its regional college. There are usually many people working within a particular organisation who have some excellent ideas on the direction they would like to see a college going, but are denied an opportunity of putting forward their views in a proper forum. A good academic council can only be a tremendous asset in any third level institution.

I am glad to note also that there will be student representation on this body. Indeed, it is a feature of this Bill that it recognises the part students must play in the development of their college. In fact this goes a step beyond the Universities Act, as there is no statutory provisions in that Act for student participation. Usually, that is done by way of ministerial appointment to the board of governors in the universities.

Committees form a very important part of any organisation. That is true of sports clubs, factories, social clubs, schools, colleges, or whatever; the list is endless. I know from my experience at local authority level that some of the best work always is done in committee. The same should be the case in the regional colleges under this Bill. Different colleges in different parts of the country obviously will have different needs. The Bill does not set out to tie their hands as to which committee they should or should not set up but allows them the flexibility of forming committees which they feel are necessary for their purposes.

There are one or two provisions in the Bill with which I would not totally agree. That is natural as it would be impossible for anybody to frame legislation and expect everybody to agree 100 per cent with every line of its provision. One small criticism I have is in relation to the composition of the governing body. The county council and county borough councils in a region in which there is a regional college, should be the body nominating to the governing body, not the Vocational Education Committee's representing that local authority area. I say that because such would ensure that it would be a public representative from that area who would be appointed to the governing body. There must be public accountability. The only way to so ensure is through public representatives democratically elected by the people. However, while speaking about public representatives, I agree that Members of the Oireachtas, or of the European Parliament, should not be members of governing bodies. I agree with the Irish Vocational Education Association's contention that a representative from the Federation of Irish Employers also should be a member. Again, I should like to draw attention to the fact that a student representative once more, by statute, will be a member of the governing body.

Another matter which the Bill does not seem to recognise is the fact that a regional college is just that, a regional college and not a local college. There are many references in the Bill to recommendations to the Minister from the vocational education committee in whose functional area a college operates. For instance, the chairman must be appointed by the Minister on the recommendation of the Vocational Education Committee. Similarly he can be removed by the Minister on the recommendation of the Vocational Education Committee. In these instances the Vocational Education Committee referred to is the one responsible for that college at present.

Again, the Bill stipulates that every ordinary member of the governing body shall be appointed by the Minister on the recommendation of the Vocational Education Committee. That sort of reference appears throughout the Bill. I wonder whether there is not some other mechanism that could be used to ensure that the entire region plays its part in the decision-making process, not just the local Vocational Education Committee.

A major role is being given to any college as regards the selection of their staff and for their appointment by the Vocational Education Committee. Obviously, all this will have to be done within the budget provided by the Department of Education. Nevertheless flexibility is being afforded them to operate within those constraints. For example, a college can determine the number of their staff, their pay and conditions of service, whereas the Vocational Education Committee will be the body responsible for dismissals, suspension or removal from office on the recommendation of the governing body. It is also pleasant to note that a college can appoint suitable persons to research fellowships, teaching assistantships and other support posts in relation to the offering of services on a temporary, part-time or contract basis. This helps to expand a college's activities so that apart from being a place of learning it will also develop a linkage with local industry to their mutual benefit and, ultimately, to the benefit of the region. In relation to the enhanced connection with local industries, I am pleased that a college will be placed in the position to levy fees and charges for research, consultancy and development work.

Having earlier supported some amendments on the part of the IVEA there are others with which I disagree. My criticism of the Bill is in relation to the fact that its provisions seem to regard it as a local technical college rather than a regional technical college. That criticism could be levelled also at the IVEA. They also do not appear to propose any amendments which would give some role to the Vocational Education Committees beyond the immediate vicinity of the college. The Bill's provisions eliminate some of the bureaucracy of which we are so fond here. However, the IVEA seem to advocate that certain layers of bureaucracy should be kept in place. I contend they will not serve any real purpose.

Section 15 proposes that grants to college from the Exchequer should go straight to the college rather than as heretofore, through the Vocational Education Committee; that is eminently sensible. What is the point in a cheque being issued by the Department of Education, they having received it from the Department of Finance, to the local Vocational Education Committee, who in turn must issue another payment to the college concerned? Would it not be simpler to send it direct to the college initially? This type of circular payment obtained with regard to housing loans in the Department of the Environment up to relatively recently. That practice has been changed and the same is happening here.

I assume that what the Minister is endeavouring to achieve in section 16, (i) is a standard form of accounting which may or may not be the form used by universities at present. I hope that it is the same form of accounting procedure. That is a sensible course of action. I do not agree with the IVEA's contention that they should be allowed choose their method of accounting. This ties in also with the appointment of the Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out annual audits for the college rather than the local government auditor. I am on record in this House as criticising the method of accounting used by local authorities. That system should be changed also. Nonetheless it is the system with which the local government auditor is most familiar and the one with which it appears he will have to continue dealing in the foreseeable future. He has a different expertise from that of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. Accordingly, it is more appropriate to allocate this function as suggested in the Bill.

Perhaps I can be a little parochial for a moment and refer to the needs of my constituency of Waterford, more broadly, the entire south-eastern region in relation to the need for further degree courses. The House should remember that Waterford is the only county borough here that does not have a university at present. This is something I should like to see addressed in the short term rather than the long term. Similarly, something else I have learned over the last couple of years is that a university, a centre of educational excellence, or whatever, is not established by bricks and mortar only but rather by reputation. The regional technical college in Waterford has the finest reputation in that sector in the country. On that account I am quite convinced it has the ability to evolve into a full university as long as there is as little outside interference as possible. Indeed, one of their degree courses this year attracted more applications than any other course anywhere in the country and I am including UCC, UCD, etc. in that. That is a measure of the excellence that has been achieved there.

I know that the Minister will have a certain amount of power as a result of this Bill, but I hope that it will be precautionary more than anything else. I would like to see the Minister become involved in the operation of regional colleges only when it is totally necessary and let the colleges get on with doing the job themselves. Those that are efficiently run will prosper as a result. This Bill is allowing that opportunity and, assuming that there is little outside interference, we can look back at some time in the future and realise that this legislation was a watershed in the development of third level education.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Tá sé ait go bhfuilimid anseo inniu agus go rabhamar ag labhairt faoi Bhille oideachais, cé nach raibh aon Bhille oideachais os ár gcomhair le 60 bliain, ó 1930. Is dócha go bhfuil oideachas ag dul chun cinn sa tír agus sa Dáil agus go bhfuil an-suim ag an Aire go mbeidh an fhorbairt sin le feiceáil go soiléir. Os rud é go bhfuil RTC againn i gCeatharlach, tá an-suim agam sa reachtaíocht seo agus tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sé maitheas ní amháin don oideachas ach do Cheatharlach féin.

The previous speaker sang the praises of Waterford, but there is very strong competition from Carlow, where high standards are being achieved. I am very proud that we have such an excellent regional college in Carlow which has done so much for the students and for Carlow itself.

All of us involved in education or with children of our own have gone through the trauma of seeing children filling CAO forms and realising that places in third level education have become difficult to obtain. It is disappointing for many people who often work very hard to reach a certain standard but then fail to do so. Sometimes they aim too high. It is important that we do not get carried away with academic achievements. Anyone who has been in the teaching profession will realise that there are various strata in the classroom. Many will never achieve the high standards attained by the very bright children but they will probably achieve satisfaction in doing what they want to do. There is far too much emphasis on academic subjects. At examination time in class I always assured those who were not among the first ten that some day they would stop in their Mercedes and offer me a lift. It happens on a regular basis, but the car is not always a Mercedes. The Lord looks after those who were not the very brightest children. They may have manual skills or other talents — in some aspect of music, for example.

The regional colleges offer a wide choice. They can deal with the academically gifted and with others who have technical skills. In 1980 they had 6,500 students and today that number has grown to 20,000. The number of students in the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges has increased from 4,000 to 8,600. These colleges are obviously delivering the goods and it is wonderful to see that happening. I hope this Bill will enable the regional colleges to make further advances.

I should like to see regional colleges having scope to award their own degrees with university status. There must be international recognition of achievements. The Bill provides for special status for consultancy and research in regional colleges. This is very important because in the long run it will give them their special status in society. In Carlow we have the CIM centre and the industrial liaison section which brings in local industry and gives a practical example of the work involved. It is a key factor in any region that there is expertise which can be called upon by industry, if required. If a foreign industry is considering locating in an area they are often delighted to find a regional technical college in the locality because skills will be taught there. It is very important that there should be a source of information and skills.

When changes are made in a system one must worry about the staff who work in the institutions. Sections 11 and 12 deal with the changeover and we must make sure that there is no diminution in the position of the staff. The academic council will be given legal status under the provisions of the Bill. This definite foundation is necessary because the council will steer the college through their academic achievements. Another section deals with autonomy. If extra work is created I hope the Minister will not leave the colleges short of the required staff. A theoretical advance must have the necessary practical backup. Extra resources should not be given in a begrudging way.

I have always believed that regional technical colleges will never be fully regarded by people as third level institutions as long as they are linked to second level institutions. I welcome the proposal to remove control for regional colleges from vocational education committees. Even though there will still be a link between the two sectors, regional colleges should be autonomous. It is very hard for regional colleges to compete internationally when they are more or less controlled by second level bodies. I am glad we are finally giving regional colleges the status they deserve.

In time we will see the introduction of polytechnic colleges here. This will enable these colleges to stand as one and take their place in the third level education system in a proper way. When one takes into account the allocation by Eolas of £100 million of European Regional Development Fund funding to universities and only £100,000 to regional colleges, one can see the need for the setting up of one overall body which will ensure that regional technical colleges get the status they deserve in the third level education area and that they get more EC funding. Whether or not we like it, in the long term European funding is what will keep this country going in more areas than just education. While we need to ensure that regional technical colleges get the status they deserve this will be of little use to them if they do not get adequate funding. On Committee Stage I will refer in detail to other problems in this area. I will refer in particular to the proposal to allow the Dublin Institute of Technology to award degrees. Both regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology should be parallel in terms of courses and academic awards. If we start splitting them further this will give raise to trouble. These colleges should be on a par.

Inspection of the accounts of regional technical colleges by an auditor or the Comptroller and Auditor General should be part and parcel of the third level educational system. I would support any measure which would give greater status to regional colleges and enable them to grant awards which are recognised internationally. Irish students with a qualification from a regional technical college here should be able to have their certificates recognised in England and Wales. I welcome the Bill. As I said, I will deal in detail on Committee Stage with some problems I see in this area.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an dá Bhille seo agus go háirithe roimh Bhille na gColáistí Teicniúla Réigiúnacha. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an Aire agus freisin le príomhoide agus foireann Choláiste Teicniúil Réigiúnach na Gaillimhe, agus na mic léinn sa choláiste sin.

I welcome the Regional Technical Colleges Bill which will give regional technical colleges greater potential to develop. In her speech the Minister said that the regional technical colleges have come of age and that these Bills are a celebration of the maturity of regional technical colleges and their important links with the vocational education committees.

First, I want to compliment the National Council for Educational Awards for the work they have done over the years. They have been responsible for the granting of awards, diplomas and certificates to regional technical college graduates. The National Council for Educational Awards have responsibility for approximately 37 colleges. I recently requested from the National Council for Educational Awards a list of the courses available in regional technical colleges. I was amazed at the large number and great variety of courses offered by the nine regional technical colleges. I welcome the provision which will enable other colleges to be brought within the scope of the Bill in the future.

Business studies, engineering and science are the most popular courses run by regional technical colleges. For example, 16 engineering courses of different types are run by Athlone Regional Technical College. Galway Regional Technical College offer a great variety of courses, for example, a unique course in woodcarving, which is carried out at Letterfrack. A course on woodcarving and design is unique and very interesting and is very appropriate to the Galway region. We must not lose sight of the fact that these are regional technical colleges. Like other regional technical colleges, Galway Regional Technical College need more resources. I hope the Minister takes this point into consideration. Under section 17 colleges will be able to raise revenue. I well refer in greater detail to this very important provision on Committee Stage.

Over the past number of years there has been a large increase in the number of students attending third level colleges. Since 1987, the year the Minister for Education took up office, the number of students in third level colleges increased from 56,000 to 75,000. I should like to congratulate the Minister for the work she has done in this area. She has made great strides in easing the pressure on students, particularly those who are disadvantaged, to gain points for entry to university. She has also established the Youthreach programme for young people who have left school at an early age and the vocational training opportunities scheme for long term unemployed adults over 21 years.

It has been suggested that regional technical colleges duplicate many of their courses. I totally reject that suggestion, as regional technical colleges have always shown themselves to be flexible. The Regional Technical Colleges Bill will give them an extra incentive to be flexible. There is no veterinary faculty in Galway University and students from the west who want to do pharmacy have to go to Trinity College. Regional technical colleges offer a great variety of courses. The National Council for Educational Awards have always monitored the courses run by colleges to ensure that the same courses are not run in, for example, Galway and Athlone, which geographically are very close. Galway Regional Technical College run an aquaculture course which is very appropriate to the west where there are many maritime counties. They also run hotel and catering courses which are very necessary to tourism and industry in that region. The regional technical college in Letterkenny run a fish farming course but this college is a sufficient distance from Galway city.

I would like to stress to the Minister the need for an information booklet for students in relation to eligibility for third level grants and scholarships. There are too many grant awarding bodies in this country, for example, regional technical colleges are administering the European Social Fund grants — they do a very good job — the local authorities and the vocational education committees administer the same grants with the same income limits and one wonders why there is this duplication. It reminds me of what an old person once said to me in Galway: "I need to do up the house, I do not know whether I should go to the local authority or to the health board but I will go to both and between the two of them we might get some assistance for housing repairs". There is much duplication because these schemes are administered by both the local authorities and the vocational education committees, both of whom have the same criteria as regards academic qualifications and income eligibility. The Minister reduced the qualification requirement from four honours to two honours which enables many students to get into different courses at third level. I am glad there has been so much co-operation between the regional technical colleges and that we have such a variety in the courses.

One matter about which I am disappointed every year is the lack of knowledge which students and parents seem to have regarding the type of courses available and the completion of the CAO form. Students who complete these forms know, if they get the required number of points, they will get their first choice, usually the college nearest to them, but they do not think as carefully about the second choice. Every year I hear students say they did not get Galway — because for various reasons the points are high there — they did not realise Sligo was also doing secretarial studies and they find they are getting a place in Cork. People when completing those application forms must be very careful.

I should like to refer to student accommodation. Every regional technical college has a register. Obviously, they get the best accommodation possible for students. This task will prove more difficult in view of the increasing numbers taking up various courses. I mention in particular the scheme drawn up by University College Galway with the private sector on a lease back basis and which qualified for tax incentives. As we are all aware these tax incentives will no longer exist next year. I regret they will disappear at a time when many colleges and particularly the regional technical colleges are trying to see what they can do to provide student accommodation on that same lease back basis. If this type of proposal is coming from the regional technical colleges I hope the Government, and particularly the Ministers for Finance and Education, will look at the possibility of some exemption being given to educational institutions so that they can provide student accommodation that is so badly needed particularly in a city such as Galway where we have a huge increase in the number of students in our university and also in our regional technical colleges. It is an historic day that we are coming of age and witnessing that celebration for our regional technical colleges. I wish them and the other colleges success in the future.

May I ask what time is available to me?

As far as I understand there is no limit on this Second Stage debate.

At least I will be continuing after Question Time. I am appalled by the introduction of this Bill at this time considering that over the years we have been promised, and are still being promised, an overall comprehensive education Bill, of which this would form a small part. What has happened to all the blurb we heard about the education Bill and the need for it? There is a need for it. Why is this being pushed through as if it was of mighty importance? Those of us who have a long association with the establishment of the regional technical colleges, know that those colleges are doing very well, thank you, and if they were not doing well there would be no effort on the part of this or any other Minister, or the Department of Education who are in the shadow behind whoever is Minister for Education, to take them over.

Despite all the blurb we have heard about it, the explanatory memorandum, the Minister's speech and the contents of the Bill, which is such a convoluted document, it is difficult to know what its intention is. What is intended in that Bill could be written in five sentences. Instead of that we have several pages and what is striking about every page and every paragraph is that there is either a reference to "the Minister shall direct,""the Minister shall grant,""the Minister as she considers appropriate, from time to time." It is the Minister all down the line.

I take issue with the intentions of this Bill which are, without question, to centralise control in Marlborough Street and to take away from the local elected representatives the job they have been doing so well, often on a very limited budget, endeavouring in every sense of the word, to expand the colleges which were set up not only for the education of students to a third level degree course. The fact that they are named regional technical colleges is what inspired us to place them in the provinces. That enables us to educate more of our young people and those leaving second level who would not be able, because of various circumstances, to attend our universities.

These colleges have done a marvellous job, a wonderful job. The Minister is asking for more places. That is a tall order for the college in Letterkenny where we do not have the space and the Minister has refused to give it to us. We are tenants in part of an old mental hospital and there are over 600 students. We cannot get a bob to put a stone on a stone to build on the campus which is the only way the college can accommodate what we have got at present. In Letterkenny we have grown from 540 students in 1985 and one diploma course to 1,300 students at present in that institution, with six diploma courses and a further three forecast for next September. The student body is rising to anything approaching 2,000 and yet the Minister is paying lip service to the expansion of third level places. She will not even accommodate those we have in what was the smallest college of all the colleges established here by the late Donogh O'Malley who must be turning in his grave.

Debate adjourned.
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