(Limerick East) asked the Minister for Justice what steps he intends taking to investigate the allegations of illegal surveillance and illegal telephone tapping made by the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Albert Reynolds, and other Members of this House, at the Fianna Fáil meeting in Leinster House on Saturday, 9 November 1991; if he will assure the House that neither the alleged surveillance nor the alleged telephone tapping was carried out on his instructions or on the instructions of anybody reporting to him; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Private Notice Question. - Telephone Tapping Allegations
During the course of the meeting of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party concerns were expressed by two Deputies who believed that their telephones were illegally tapped. They emphasised that they did not believe the Garda were involved. On the basis of these allegations I asked the Garda authorities to carry out an investigation. This investigation, which was carried out and completed yesterday involved a visit to the Deputies homes by relevant Garda personnel for the purpose of carrying out an electronic sweep, and Telecom engineers checked and cleared the local telephone exchanges. A similar examination was carried out in the Leinster House office of one of the Deputies who was concerned that his office phone may have been illegally tapped. The result of these examinations showed that there was no interference with the telephones of the Deputies concerned.
With regard to the allegations made by Deputy Reynolds, he indicated at the meeting last Saturday that he felt he was the subject of unauthorised surveillance, but again no allegation was made about the Garda. Deputy Reynolds indicated that his concern arose from the presence of a white van acting suspiciously in the vicinity of his home. This allegation has also been brought to the attention of the Garda authorities and is now the subject of a Garda investigation.
I want to make it clear in response to the specific questions posed by the Deputy, that I very much resent the imputation contained in the Deputy's question that I, as Minister for Justice, would have had hand, act or part in illegal telephone tapping or illegal surveillance. It may not have been the intention of the Deputy to make any such imputation, and I am sure that on reflection he will wish to take the opportunity now to withdraw the suggestion that either I or anybody reporting to me gave instructions that the law was to be flouted. The allegations regarding illegal telephone tapping have been investigated and it has been found that no such thing happened. There is a duty on all sides of this House to act in a reasonable manner and not to add further to public disquiet.
(Limerick East): I agree with the Minister for Justice that this is a matter of great public disquiet. Allegations have been made that Deputy Reynolds, while Minister for Finance, was the subject of illegal surveillance — that allegation was made by Deputy Reynolds. Allegations have been made also by two other Deputies that their telephones may have been interfered with.
Ceist, le do thoil.
(Limerick East): Does the Minister for Justice not consider that allegations of illegal activity should be properly investigated by the Garda Síochána rather than by an internal committee of his party? Will he give an assurance that all these allegations will be fully investigated by the Garda Síochána and that he will report to this House when the investigation is completed?
If the Deputy listened to the reply I just gave he would know the position. The Garda investigations in relation to the concerns expressed by two Deputies as regards their phones being interfered with have taken place not only in the homes of the Deputies but also in the office of one of the Deputies. The allegations have been fully investigated by the Garda yesterday and this mornng but no such interference was found. The Garda are carrying out a normal investigation in relation to the concern expressed by the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Reynolds, who emphasised that he has made no allegation against the Garda or in relation to his phone.
I have to dissuade Members from the notion that we may debate this matter now. There are three Deputies offering and I would ask them to be brief. I will call first Deputy De Rossa.
One of the reports indicated that the Minister for Justice assured the Deputies at the Fianna Fáil meeting that there were no tappings of their phones. Could the Minister give a similar assurance to this House in relation to all Deputies? Could he clarify his remarks that the Garda found that there have been no illegal tappings or interference with the phones? Is he assuring the House also that there has been no legal tapping of their phones, or the phones of other Deputies? Finally would he provide a similar service to all Deputies to have Garda personel carry out an electronic sweep of their home phones and their Dáil phones to see if they are being tapped?
We are having quite a widening of this question.
I can give the Deputy and every Member of this House a categorical assurance that no Member of this House is under surveillance by any member of the Garda in relation to their phones or otherwise. I can assure the Deputy, and all Deputies, that if they have a specific concern in relation to the phone in their office or elsewhere I will be pleased to direct the Garda to provide that service. It has been provided over the years to various Deputies in this House.
So far as questions relating to the Minister's action are concerned, they were not put by this side of this House. I reject any suggestion that the Opposition are throwing mud at the Minister in this regard. May I ask the Minister, in view of the fact that Deputies on his side of the House and others have expressed concern about the question of potential phone tapping, if he will bring forward the promised phone tapping legislation this session so that the House can deal with the matter once and for all?
As far as the question of mud slinging is concerned, if the Deputy looks at the final part of his colleague's question he can see the imputation there, which, as I have already said, I resent. As far as the legislation is concerned the Deputy will be pleased to know that I intend to introduce that legislation within the next couple of weeks.
(Limerick East): I put it to the Minister that the allegations about telephone tapping came from his side of the House, not from this side. Second, I have asked the Minister not about illegal telephone tapping but whether he was responsible for legal telephone tapping. I accept the assurances he was given to the House that there is no warrant in existence on the telephone of any Member of this House. Finally, I would like to ask if, in assuring the House that the Garda discovered no interference with the telephones of Deputy Dempsey or Deputy Ellis, he is saying that no interference was discovered since Saturday when the investigation took place or did the Garda inquiry extend to the period before last Saturday to establish if surveillance had taken place in the period preceding the Fianna Fáil meeting? If the investigation has not extended that far, would the Minister ask the Garda to extend it and then report to the House on that matter together with the allegations made by Deputy Reynolds that his house was under surveillance by a white Hiace van?
Please, Deputy Noonan. Let us come to finality on this question.
The difficulty for Deputy Noonan seems to be that the matter was raised only last Saturday was investigated yesterday and this morning and has been fully clarified. Unfortunately, Deputy Noonan appears to want to continue to throw mud. The position is that the matter has been fully investigated. A full electronic sweep has been carried out not only of the phones but of the homes concerned and the Telecom engineers have also carried out their work on the telephone exchange to make sure that was clear. The result is that no such tapping took place. In relation to the final part of the Deputy's question, that is a matter for investigation by the Garda. If at some time in the future the Deputy wants to put down a question to me on the matter, I will have no problem answering it.
Does the Minister have the registration number of the Hiace van?
Last Thursday morning I urged the Taoiseach to introduce immediately the promised phone tapping legislation. At the same time I urged him to introduce on a non-statutory basis the safeguards. I put it to the Minister for Justice that in the light of the allegations that have been made, now is the time not only to introduce the Bill but to introduce on a non-statutory basis the safeguards against phone tapping and the complaints procedure outlined in the Bill I circulated — No. 7 on the Order Paper, Interception of Communications Bill, 1990 — to establish an independent complaints referee.
We are having repetition.
Would the Minister do that immediately?
Please, Deputy O'Keeffe——
As regards the Bill to which the Deputy referred, he introduced that Bill in Opposition. When the Deputy's party were in Government they introduced a Bill to this House and left it on the Order Paper for nearly four years. That Bill will be introduced in the next couple of weeks.
That disposes of questions for today.
I am talking about the Bill that is on the Order Paper. Will the Minister not answer the question?
(Interruptions.)
Order. We have disposed of questions for today.