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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 13 Mar 1992

Vol. 417 No. 4

Siúicre Éireann and Related Companies Report: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann notes the report of the investigation into the affairs of Siúicre Éireann cpt and related companies.

There are four main points I wish to make in this debate. First, events that took place in the Sugar Company as revealed in the inspectors' report are deplorable. However, even the most careful ongoing scrutiny by Ministers and Departments of the company at the time these events occurred or when the company were floated would not reveal them, such was the care that was taken to conceal them from the board, not to mention from Departments and Ministers. Even now after exhaustive investigations experts do not agree on one key matter, the ownership of Talmino.

Second, once there was evidence suggesting that there had been improper activities in the company the Government took immediate action. We instituted the High Court inspectors' report and the report of Mr. Maurice Curran, and we gave these people the fullest co-operation in their inquiries. As a result of these inquiries action will be pursued by the appropriate legal means.

Third, the Government gave the inspectors, and Mr. Maurice Curran, a completely free hand. We scrupulously avoided any action or suggestion that might influence the nature of their conclusions because it was in the public interest that the full facts should be made known. The only step we took, and it was a proper one, was to seek to have the inspectors' report completed in due time consistent with a full investigation into the matters at issue and at an acceptable cost. The Minister, Deputy O'Malley, has already reviewed mechanisms with a view to minimising costs in future inspections. Finally, we have acted to avert a recurrence of this case by adopting guidelines for relations between Ministers and State bodies for the conduct of such bodies.

The Government were quick to respond when allegations concerning the affairs of Irish Sugar plc first broke in late August of last year. On 29 and 30 August the Government Information Service informed the Department of Finance that Mr. Sam Smyth of the Sunday Independent was alleging that Mr. Chris Comerford, managing director of Greencore plc, was the beneficial owner of Talmino, a Jersey registered company, which had a 24 per cent interest in Gladebrook. Gladebrook, in turn, owned 49 per cent of Sugar Distributors Holdings Limited (SDHL), which had been acquired by Irish Sugar Limited for £9.53 million, prior to the flotation of Greencore plc. These allegations were put to Mr. Comerford by an officer in my Department and he denied them. An article containing those allegations appeared in the Sunday Independent of 1 September 1991. It was further alleged in this article that Mr. Comerford had received payments of £40,000 in consultancy fees from Gladebrook, these moneys being paid to another Jersey registered company, Delante, ostensibly owned by Mr. Comerford also.

A meeting of the board of Greencore was called for Tuesday, 3 September at which Mr. Comerford was asked to answer certain questions. As a result of his replies to these questions the board sought Mr. Comerford's resignation, which he tendered in return for a generous severance package. Mr. Tully, the company secretary and financial controller, tendered his resignation on 6 September in similar circumstances. In the meantime the Government had decided, on 4 December, to authorise the Minister for Finance and the Minster for Agriculture and Food, to seek a full report on all aspects of the matter from the board of Greencore, and, on September 9 this report was furnished to those Ministers by the board, and presented to Government next day.

In the letter covering the board's report, the chairman stated that the board had endeavoured to address all the points raised, on the basis of information available to them at that time. However, in order to make sure that the fullest information possible was available, the board had appointed Arthur Andersen to carry out a full review of the Sugar Distributors/Gladebrook transactions. As I said the report was presented to Government on Tuesday, 10 September 1991. The Government decided that there were outstanding questions of public interest which demanded answers, and that the extensive powers conferred by the Companies Acts should be used to establish beyond question the exact nature of the facts and events involved. The Government decided that (a) the Minister for Industry and Commerce, on behalf of the Government, would apply to the High Court under section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990, to appoint one or more inspectors to inquire into the affairs of Irish Sugar plc and other relevant companies, so as to obtain all relevant information concerning responsibility for what had happened.

The Government decided that (b) the Minister for Industry and Commerce would, also on behalf of the Government, under section 14 of the Companies Act, 1990, investigate the ownership of Sugar Distributors Holdings Limited, Gladebrook and other recent acquisitions of Irish Sugar plc. The inspector as appointed would be required to determine persons either having a financial interest in, or being able to control or influence the policy of, these companies. The investigation would cover in particular any circumstances suggesting the existence of an arrangement or understanding which, though not legally binding, may have been observed in practice, and which was relevant to the investigation. This investigation would establish whether there was any question of insider dealing or conflict of interest.

The Government further decided (c) to request the Revenue Commissioners to carry out a complete investigation into all relevant matters which came within their jurisdiction; this would involve examining all relevant transactions with a view to establishing that liabilities were properly estimated and paid in respect of corporate, capital and personal taxes;

The Government decided (d) to request the Central Bank to examine the exchange control aspects of the matters at issue; this would involve examining all transactions involving payments outside the State, with a view to establishing that exchange control procedures were not breached in any way. In addition, the Central Bank were asked to inquire whether permissions were sought from, and granted by, the Central Bank, in relation to the establishment of the two companies, Delante and Talmino, registered in Jersey.

The Government further decided (e) that the Minister for Finance, on behalf of the Government, and exercising his right as a shareholder in Greencore plc, would request the board of the company to convene an extraordinary general meeting under section 132 of the Companies Act, 1963, to report to the shareholders on the resignations of the executives of the company, and the arrangements agreed with them in that context.

On Thursday, 12 September 1991, the Minister for Finance requested an extraordinary general meeting of Greencore as a matter of urgency, seeking a report to shareholders on the resignations of executives of the company. This agenda was broadened at the request of other shareholders to cover events surrounding the SDHL/Gladebrook transactions. On the same day, 12 September, the Minister for Industry and Commerce appointed Mr. Maurice Curran, solicitor, to inquire into the membership and beneficial ownership of certain companies under section 14 of the Companies Act, 1990. As a result of affidavits sworn in the High Court by officers of the Departments of Industry and Commerce and Finance, Mr. Ciaran Foley, SC and Mr. Aidan Barry, accountant, were appointed, by order of the High Court, inspectors under section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990, to investigate the affairs of Irish Sugar, on the grounds that it was probable that the management of the company had been guilty of misfeasance or other misconduct towards the company or their members, and that these members had not been given all the information relating to their affairs which they might reasonably expect. The same order also allowed the inspectors to investigate any other matters which might appear to be appropriate, having regard to facts which might come to their knowledge in the course of their investigations.

Within days the inspectors were back in the High Court — 18 September — seeking to extend the investigation to 34 other companies because they considered them relevant to the investigation of Irish Sugar.

In preliminary discussions between the Department of Finance and the inspectors, all assistance was offered to them, including the findings of the Arthur Andersen report. The inspectors, however, decided to carry out their task without such assistance. On 7 October the inspectors presented an interim report to the High Court, a copy of which was furnished to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The court gave the inspectors a further five weeks to report, but directed that the interim report should be kept confidential.

The EGM of Greencore, as requested by the Minister for Finance, took place on 30 October 1991. Both the report of the chairman of Greencore and the Arthur Andersen report referred to earlier were on the agenda.

The Andersen report concentrated on the relationships between Siúicre Éireann cpt and Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Ltd. (SDHL) and the financial and other transactions relating to the original acquisition by Gladebrook of 49 per cent of SDHL and the eventual acquisition of Gladebrook by Siúicre Éireann. The chairman's report concentrated more on the role of Mr. Comerford, the former Chief Executive of Siúicre Éireann and Greencore, in these events and his eventual resignation and severance package. Both reports were careful to state: first, that matters referred to in them were sub judice; secondly, that they were unable to take evidence under oath, and that they were therefore dependent on examination and discussion for the evidence; thirdly, that the eventual reports of court and other inspectors might have a crucial bearing on their own reports; and, finally, that it might be the courts that would decide certain matters.

The Andersen report concluded that Gladebrook may have acquired 49 per cent of SDHL at a slightly low price, but that this would not be unusual where a management buy-out was involved, as opposed to a majority shareholder buy-out. The report was, however, critical of the board of Siúicre Éireann for not examining other options available. The Andersen report also concluded that a fair price was paid eventually by Siúicre Éireann for Gladebrook, which included the original 49 per cent of SDHL, when account is taken of acquisitions in the meantime, which had the effect of substantially increasing the profits over the period of Gladebrook's existence. A price/earnings ratio of 8.8 was paid by Siúicre Éireann for Gladebrook, which compares favourably with quoted food stocks at the time, at about 10.2. The board, nevertheless, being conscious of the possibility of Mr. Comerford's involvement on both sides of the deal, decided, pending the reports of the High Court inspectors, not to redeem any of the outstanding loan notes — about £6.3 million in all, including the £2.1 million due to Talmino — issued in connection with the purchase of Gladebrook.

The board accepted that they were badly advised in the matter of the resignations and severance settlements of Mr. Comerford and Mr. Tully, and that they acted precipitately under extreme pressure. The board decided to suspend the implementation of both agreements, and that if it were established that Mr. Comerford was the beneficial owner of Talmino, his termination agreement would be rescinded and he would be pursued for any "secret profits" he might have made. The extent of Mr. Tully's involvement and knowledge of Mr. Comerford's claimed interest in Talmino would determine whether or not his termination agreement would be honoured. In the event, as a result of an updating of the Andersen report, Greencore obtained a plenary summons from the High Court in respect of these and other matters on 29 November 1991. The board on that date said that it had instituted legal proceedings against Mr. Comerford, Mr. Tully, Mr. Keleghan, Mr. Lyons and Mr. Murphy alleging breach of duty, breach of trust, breach of contract, misrepresentation and negligence "in respect of events which took place during the course of their employment by, or whilst otherwise acting on behalf of, the group".

Whatever criticisms may be levelled at the original board of Siúicre Éireann for not pursuing alternative options to the management buy-out by Gladebrook, and whatever criticism may be levelled at the present board of Greencore for precipitate agreement on generous severance packages, it has to be said that they acted correctly and decisively once the possible conflict of interest become known to them.

The inspectors' appointed under section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990, returned to the High Court on Monday, 11 November with a further interim report and they indicated to the court that they would have no objection if the court wished to publish it. This was strenuously resisted by the legal representatives of Greencore, on the grounds that there were allegations prejudicial to the company and other parties in it, without substantiation, and without the right of rebuttal having been afforded. In the event, the inspectors withdrew their support for publication, on the grounds that the objections of Greencore would hold up their investigations. On Wednesday 13 November Mr. Justice Lynch accepted that the interim report should not be published, and that other relevant Ministers and their advisers could see the report. A copy of the report was given to the then Minister for Finance.

The publication of the final court inspectors' report entitled "Investigation into the Affairs of Siúicre Éireann CPT and Related Companies", dated 25 February 1992, has been welcomed by the Government. As the inspectors acknowledge, their conclusions constitute opinions which, in many instances, may only be adjudicated upon and finally determined in a court of law.

As a first step, however, the Government, for its part, referred the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions for consideration and consequent action where it is determined that there may have been breaches of criminal law. The Revenue Commissioners also received a copy of the report for examination, in the context of the investigation being carried out by them into taxation issues arising from the affair, which investigation is nearing conclusion. Both the Department of Finance and the Central Bank are looking at exchange control issues arising from the report to see if action is warranted in relation thereto.

As regards the conclusions of the report itself, as set out on pages 221 to 233 inclusive: nine centre round the former Managing Director, Mr. Chris Comerford; another nine relate to other individuals including Messrs Tully, Garavan, Kelleghan and Lyons and four others relate to financial records, and claims for company tax relief.

The report is critical of Sugar Company procedures on a number of occasions for being lax, but does not specifically criticise the board or the chairman. In fact, the report draws the conclusion that the board would be unlikely to have approved the purchase the management buy-out by Gladebrook had they had full knowledge of all the matters involved. It does conclude that the board of Greencore should have dismissed Mr. Comerford following their meeting with him on 3 September. The report does concede that the board did act on legal advice. The main conclusions of the report indicate that there was widespread conspiracy and deception practised by Mr. Comerford and the other executives of Sugar Distributors. If all, or even some of the conclusions are borne out following the investigtions by the authorities to which I have already referred, the Government will not flinch from taking all necessary action.

It is acknowledged that on one very important issue the High Court inspectors' report differs from that drawn up by Mr. Curran, appointed under section 14 of the Companies Act, 1990. The Curran report had concluded that Mr. Comerford was the beneficial owner of Talmino Ltd., one of the shareholders in Gladebrook, in respect of which a loan note was issued by Irish Sugar. This loan note is the subject of a restricting order, under section 16 of the Companies Act, 1990, imposed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The High Court inspectors' report, on the other hand, concluded that neither Mr. Comerford nor any of his family had any interest, beneficial or otherwise, in the Talmino loan note.

The essential difference in the two reports on this issue centre on the purpose for which the Jersey-registered company, Delante Limited, was used. This company was in the hands of Mr. John Murphy, solicitor, before he transferred beneficial ownership to Mr. Comerford on 16 December 1988. The Curran report says that when Mr. Murphy assigned Delante to Mr. Comerford on that date, it was for the purpose of holding 22 per cent of shares in Gladebrook. The High Court inspectors' report, however, suggests that Delante was transferred to Mr. Comerford with the intention that "consultancy payments" only would be made by Gladebrook to Delante, for the benefit of Mr. Comerford. The Section 8 report acknowledges that at one time it was proposed that a portion of the shares in Gladebrook be held by Delante but that in the event, another company, Talmino Ltd., was acquired by Mr. Murphy for this purpose. The subsequent dispute that arose between Mr. Comerford on the one hand and Mr. Murphy on the other and culminated in Mr. Comerford issuing legal proceedings in the matter, concerned the ownership of Talmino, and was the immediate cause of the whole affair coming to light.

It is not for me but for the courts to determine which report is correct in this matter. As the Minister for Industry and Commerce pointed out in replying to private notice questions in the House on 3 March last, the matter would still remain an issue for the High Court to determine, even if both reports had come to the same conclusion as to ownership of the Talmino loan note.

One of the more pertinent questions of concern to the public interest is the price which Irish Sugar, then a semi-State company, paid for its acquisition of the 49 per cent Gladebrook shareholding in Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Ltd. In the lead-up to the flotation of Irish Sugar, in 1989, the company's adviser — IBI Corporate Finance — had advised that Irish Sugar should be in full control of the distribution of sugar, according to the inspectors' report. This advice led to Irish Sugar entering into negotiations to purchase Gladebrook, which had a 49 per cent stake in SDHL. In turn, SDHL owned Sugar Distributors Ltd., which controlled the distribution of sugar in Ireland. A price of £9.53 million was eventually paid by Irish Sugar for the 49 per cent of Sugar Distributors Holdings Ltd.

The inspectors' report states that at a meeting with Mr. Comerford, IBI's advice was to pay only £7.5 million while Mr. Comerford said that £9 million could be paid to make the acquisition. The Arthur Andersen report concluded that the price eventually paid was a fair one. The Foley/Barry report does not make a judgment on the matter. It would appear to me that the best procedures were not used in measuring the true value of the Gladebrook stake in SDHL. My view is that Irish Sugar probably paid too much, because the sustained earnings were kept artificially high through the add-back of management fees and by the inclusion of the 10 per cent manufacturing corporation tax rate, that would apply to Irish Sugar. However, the purchase itself was a beneficial one for the company when it was floated in April 1991, in that it gave it complete ownership and control of its distribution subsidiary.

An obvious question which arises from what I have just said is: should Irish Sugar have acquired the 49 per cent share in SDHL instead of Gladebrook? The shareholders' agreement in relation to SDHL meant that Irish Sugar could only purchase further shares in SDHL if an existing shareholder wished to sell and one or more of the other minority shareholders who held `A' ordinary shares — that is excluding Irish Sugar — did not wish to purchase the shares being sold. When some of the shareholders — Musgrave Ltd. and Punch and Co. Ltd. — decided to sell their holdings in 1988 it appears that the other minority shareholders would not allow Irish Sugar to purchase those holdings. Instead, agreement was reached whereby a management buy-out took place. In my opinion, however, the management had less rights in the matter than Siúicre Éireann who already owned all of the `B' ordinary shares and would have been the next tier in the offer round.

It must be remembered that all of the sellers of SDHL sold willingly and considered that they had got a fair price. Why, then, should two of those same sellers be given precedence over Irish Sugar as part of the management buy-out team? My belief is that they got their price and that, having sold, they should, in fairness, have stepped aside and left the field clear for Irish Sugar. Instead they were on both sides of the transactions.

In relation to the management buy-out of the minority shareholding in SDHL by Gladebrook in 1988, which of course preceded the purchase of Gladebrook by Irish Sugar, the High Court inspectors' report concludes, that had Irish Sugar been aware of all the facts — that no share capital was subscribed for by the management buy-out executives; that they did not undertake any personal borrowings; and that the loan to Gladebrook by a subsidiary of Irish Sugar, to facilitate the management buy-out was subordinated to a bank loan — then the board of Irish Sugar might not have agreed to the proposal.

Were, then, the interests of Irish Sugar protected in the context of the management buy-out? With hindsight, and accepting that the board of Irish Sugar acted in good faith in the matter — as the Arthur Andersen report concluded — it appears that Irish Sugar's interests could have been better served. This is implied, both in the conclusion of the report to which I have just referred and the conclusion of the inspectors that a more prudent purchaser — than Siúicre Éireann — might have taken a more critical view of the figures which underpinned the asking price for Gladebrook.

A question related to the management buy-out of SDHL, and the subsequent purchase of Gladebrook by Irish Sugar, is whether acquisitions made by SDHL/Gladebrook should have been made by Irish Sugar itself? Given the relative independence of SDHL in its relationship with Irish Sugar, and the fact that Gladebrook was privately owned, it is very hard to state definitively that Irish Sugar should itself have made the acquisitions which enhanced the value of Gladebrook. However, it is clear that Budgetts was considered too dear by Siúicre Éireann in 1988, and yet, was acquired by SDHL in 1989.

At the extraordinary general meeting of Greencore last October my representative raised questions which indicated my unhappiness with some of the actions of the Greencore board and, prior to that, some of the actions of the Irish Sugar Board. Those related principally to: the crucial lack of involvement of the board in relation to proposals for the management buy-out of 49 per cent of SDHL by Gladebrook; the lack of professional advice in relation to the financial arrangements for this purchase; and the decision to facilitate the purchase through payment of deferred and special dividends. My concern was expressed also at the action of the Greencore board in relation to its agreement to pay severance packages to Messrs. Comerford and Tully.

However, on reading the High Court inspector's report, as well as the Andersen report, I accept that the board acted in good faith. To a large extent, the outstanding record of Mr. Comerford in his management of Irish Sugar appears to have put him in the position within the company that it was taken for granted that his actions were for the good of the company. With hindsight, the board failed to be as vigilant as it might have been. In any business relationship a degree of trust is necessary, especially trust between a board and a chief executive. Sometimes that trust is misplaced. Happily that is rare in the case of State companies. It would be wrong if we were to conclude from this case that there should be repression of enterprise in the public sector. But is it right to conclude that nothing should be taken for granted, that there are adequate checks and balances in the system which should be availed of by those whose responsibility it is to exercise control.

In this context, the announcement I made on Wednesday of this week regarding guidelines for the Semi-state sector are pertinent. The guidelines set out procedures to be observed and followed by all State bodies. Of particular relevance in the context of this debate is that, inter alia, the guidelines require that all State bodies should have a written code of conduct for their board members and for employees. As regards board members, the requirements include the necessity to disclose, on appointment, all interests of a person's family or connected body which could involve a continuing conflict of interest. Such disclosure is also required where a conflict of interest might arise in any particular situation in the course of board membership. Where such interests are found to exist, board members will be excluded from meetings where these interests are the subject of discussion.

As regards employees, the written code of conduct will cover matters such as duty to the enterprise, avoidance of conflict of interest, limits on outside activities, acceptance of gifts, honesty in dealings and so on.

Another relevant guideline being implemented is that the establishment by all State bodies of subsidiaries, their participation in joint ventures or acquisition of shares should in future be subject to the approval of the relevant Ministers and the Minister for Finance.

In relation to the remuneration of chief executives, chairmen of State bodies will be required to give an assurance in the annual reports of those bodies, that Government guidelines in this regard are being complied with. The Chairman will be called on to present a comprehensive report annually to the appropriate Ministers, outlining all significant developments affecting the State bodies that have occurred.

I would stress that the aims of the guidelines are to ensure efficient management of State bodies, and to secure effective, through not excessively detailed, arrangements that will guarantee the accountability of boards to the responsible Ministers.

I would emphasise that the adoption of these guidelines does not imply Government dissatisfaction with the overwhelming majority of those who work at board level or at staff level in State bodies. They have been, and are, universally recognised as being dedicated and public-spirited in the discharge of their duties.

There is very little scope or necessity for interference by the Government at this point in relation to the position of the board and chairman of Greencore. This view was upheld by other shareholders when, at the recent AGM of Greencore, the chairman and board were returned by a large majority, a majority which was not dependent on the Government's shareholding.

It is also fair to say that institutional investors support the current board and chairman who have succeeded, in the most difficult of circumstances, in driving the company forward. A new strong management team has been put in place. Despite all that has transpired the share price remains substantially above the issue price. I have every confidence that the company have potential for further growth in the future.

(Limerick East): In the last few days of August 1991, the Greencore affair became public. It was the first of a series of scandals affecting Irish business, which washed through our democracy in the past six months.

The public, who have since been numbed by scandal, were outraged when the details of the Greencore affair became public, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce reacted quickly by appointing two inspectors, Mr. Aidan Barry and Mr. Ciaran Foley under section 8 of the Companies Act, to inquire into the affair, and another inspector under section 14 of the Act, with the narrower remit, which that section provides.

The inspectors appointed under section 8 of the Companies Act, issued two interim reports and the final report which we are debating today. Mr. Curran issued his report some time ago, and a report commissioned by the board of Greencore was also completed and presented to the board of Greencore. Consequently, we have no shortage of reports of one kind or another.

In the course of today's debate, I intend to confine my comments to the report made by inspectors Foley and Barry.

I want to address a number of questions in my comments. Did the inspectors do a good job? Did they accumulate all the evidence available? Did they evaluate it prudently and correctly? Are their conclusions probable, fair and just? Did they find answers to the various aspects of the affair which were of concern to the public when the story broke?

The public require answers to a number of questions. Did a small group of public servants, employees of Siúicre Éireann cpt, who arranged a management buy-out of 49 per cent of a Siúicre Éireann subsidiary, subsequently conspire to sell their holding to the Sugar Company, at an inflated price, a transaction which benefited them to the tune of £8 million. If so, why did nobody shout stop? Why were they not stopped by the chairman and the other directors on the board of Siúicre Éireann? Why were they not stopped by the Department of Agriculture and Food, the parent Department of Siúicre Éireann with the responsibility for supervising their transactions? Why were they not stopped by the Department of Finance who have an obligation to supervise all major financial transactions of State companies? Why were they not stopped by members of the professional firms employed by the Sugar Company and their subsidiaries, the auditors, the solicitor, the financial advisers? Why were they not stopped by the Minister for Agriculture and Food? Why were they not stopped by the Minister for Finance?

While the report of the inspectors is extremely interesting it does not reach conclusions on some of the key issues, I have mentioned, and it does not address other key issues.

The central question of the MBO and the subsequent acquisition of Gladebrook by Siúicre Éireann is dealt with in great detail in the report. The evidence in the report would suggest that the MBO was arranged, on extraordinary soft financial terms by employees of SDL, that they put up no money of their own, and incurred no personal borrowings in acquiring 49 per cent of the company. It is also clear that the value of SDL was inflated in a variety of ways, so that the same employees of Siúicre Éireann made an enormous financial killing of about £8 million in less than 12 months.

All this is clear in the report. Yet in the 24 conclusions which the inspectors draw from the report, they are silent on this, the very core of the scandal. They come to no conclusion on the central issue which caused the inquiry in the first instance and which scandalised the public.

Were the transactions involved improper, unethical, or illegal? The inspectors are silent on that. Were some of the employees who were benefitting, acting at both sides of the negotiations table when the MBO arrangements and the subsequent sale of Gladebrook was arranged? The Minister has a view that they were, but the inspectors have no clear view in their 24 conclusions.

They point to a number of actions which they regard as illegal but they have no overview and no general conclusion, on the central issue which gave rise to their appointment in the first instance.

In the final report the inspectors exonerate the board of Siúicre Éireann. They describe Mr. Cahill as a competent and trustworthy witness, and by way of explanation of the board's inactivity they claim that the board were not in possession of the facts, when they agreed the MBO and the subsequent purchase of Gladebrook by Siúicre Éireann. In effect they say that the board were misled by Mr. Comerford, who not only did not provide them with full information but put false information before them.

This may be so, but if it is, why did the inspectors come to a substantially different view in the second interim report of 11 November? In that report in article 11 they stated:

There appears to have been a failure or inability on the part of the board of directors of Siúicre Éireann cpt to exercise any proper and effective control over Mr. Comerford in his capacity of Managing Director of that company.

What changed their minds between 11 November and the end of February? Whatever it was, they provide no explanation as to why they changed their mind in the final report.

In respect of supervisory Departments the report is silent. The inspectors made no attempt whatsoever to examine why the Department of Agriculture and Food and the Department of Finance and their respective Ministers, Deputy O'Kennedy and Deputy Albert Reynolds, the then Minister for Finance, now the Taoiseach, all failed in their duty to supervise the activities of the Sugar Company. Did they know what was going on and fail to act or were they so negligent in carrying out their supervisory functions that no whisper of the MBO or the purchase of Gladebrook by Siúicre Éireann ever reached their ears?

Did the inspectors hear of Circular 1/83? Did they not know that the circular spells out the responsibility of State companies to report to both their parent Department and to the Department of Finance? Why were not the terms of Circular 1/83 implemented by the board of Siúicre Eireann and why did not the Departments involved and their respective Ministers insist on its implementation?

In that context it is worth looking at Circular 1/83, especially against the background of the Minister's announcement of an updated code of procedure and ethics for State companies. It starts with an introductory paragraph where the secretary of the Department says:

I am directed by the Minister for Finance to state that, as announced in his Budget statement on 9 February 1983, he has reviewed the procedures for planning and controlling public capital expenditure. He wishes to ensure that effective procedures, at present employed in some areas but not in others, are consolidated and employed by all public authorities. His aim is to encourage a more systematic approach to the appraisal of all capital expenditure projects and programmes and to improve the quality of information available to decision-makers at all levels.

Paragraph 7 of the circular states:

In general, it will be expected that Departments will be responsible for authorising expenditure on, and ensuring application of the procedures to minor individual projects and the constituent parts of approved programmes. Significant individual projects should be formally submitted to the Department of Finance for approval.

For fear we have any doubt about the scope of the circular, paragraph 8 states:

8. The project appraisal and sanctioning requirements referred to in this circular should be applied to all forms of investment expenditure, including sale and leaseback, direct purchase of assets and purchase or acquisition of shareholdings.

Could anything be clearer?

I do not wish to go into that comprehensive circular in detail, but from what I have quoted we can get the flavour of it. Those were the procedures which should have been in position. Those were the obligations on the Government Departments of Finance and Agriculture and Food. Those were the obligations which were on the Sugar Company. It is clear they were ignored. If they were ignored, there is not any explanation as to why the supervisory Departments, and the parent Departments, did not act. The inspectors have no view about this, because they did not look at the supervision procedures. They do not seem to have referred to the circular. They seem to see it as irrelevant and did not examine the role of Government Departments in this issue. They come to no conclusion whatsoever and this is a major gap in the report. This was a matter of major public interest at the time. The public are asking "why did the Department not do something?""how did this happen?", "how could the taxpayers have been ripped off when the Department and Minister were supposed to be looking after our interests?" The report not only comes to no conclusion on this but never examined the matter at all. The report comes to no conclusion on whether Siúicre Éireann and their subsidiaries were well served by the professional firms they employed to advise them. In my opinion, conclusions adverse to these professional bodies leap from the pages of the report.

In respect of Parnell Kerr Forster the auditors, any reasonable person would be driven to the conclusion, that in some respects they were both incompetent and negligent. Yet the inspectors can come to no conclusion on their behaviour. Neither do they come to any conclusion, as to whether the company were well served by their solicitors or their financial advisers.

I have heard Mr. Richard Hooper of IBI in a radio interview defend the price paid by Siúicre Éireann for Gladebrook. The report states, however, that IBI never carried out a valuation of Sugar Distributors Holdings Ltd, or of the 49 per cent Gladebrook share in it.

I know it is a widely held view among the professions in this country that dog does not eat dog. I believe, however, that the taxpayer who paid £1.1 million for this report was at least entitled to one bite.

In respect of the professions the inspectors in effect funked the issue. Let us say that when we talk about fees later on, there is always merit in paying very high fees to a professional firm in a small town such as this, because there is an element of danger money involved in the fee if they are to do their job properly. There is always the risk that if they report as they should, they will give offence to some of their fellow professionals and when they go back to ordinary private business there may be a slowdown in the amount of work they will get. High fees might be justified on that basis, but when the conclusions leap to the mind of the ordinary reader of the report while the inspectors reach no conclusions, then I do not think the public has been well served.

The public on behalf of whom this inspection was carried out were and are vitally interested in the questions I am discussing. Their concerns in my view have not been met. The inspectors may argue that I am criticising them about matters over which they had no control. I do not accept that I am. The powers of the inspectors were the powers of the High Court. The scope of their inspection under the 1987 Companies Act is very wide and they were given every resource they required to carry out their task.

I would now like to turn away from the central issue and look at the subsidiary issues arising from the report. Chief among these is the ownership of Talmino. I do not regard this as the vital issue. If a bank is robbed, it is quite interesting to subsequently discover that the robbers have fallen out about the division of the loot. There is certainly a prurient interest in who owns Talmino, but most taxpayers believe that neither of the claimants should benefit from their improper or illegal activity, and there is a widespread view that the loan note, which is Talmino's only asset, should revert to the State.

I am surprised that Mr. Barry and Mr. Foley have arrived at a different conclusion on the ownership of Talmino from that reached by Mr. Curran. The Minister has referred to this. It is unfortunate that there is a conflict between the reports of the two inspectors nominated by the same Minister, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, under the 1987 Companies Act.

I have no intention of trying to second guess the inspectors on their conclusion about the ownership of Talmino. There is no compelling evidence either way and those whose views are most strongly put in the report all stand to gain if their version is believed.

I would like to make two observations however. In respect of Mr. Comerford's claim, it is difficult to understand why he would have engaged in the range of illegal and improper activities described in the inspector's 24 conclusions, if he had no stake in Talmino. I am quite prepared to believe that Mr. Comerford, for a consideration in excess of £1 million, did everything he is accused of doing by the inspectors. I find it very difficult to believe he did it for nothing.

Mr. John Murphy, the Cork solicitor, is the most vocal claimant on the other side, as to the ownership of Talmino. The inspectors conclude in this report that he does own 50 per cent of that company, a share which would entitle him to 50 per cent of the loan note, which has a cash value in excess of £1 million.

It would be interesting if the inspectors had explained in more detail what in their opinion motivated the generosity of Messrs. Lyons, Keleghan and Garavan to make Mr. Murphy a present of an asset worth more than £1 million. The explanation on page 57 of the report, given by both Mr. Garavan and Mr. Lyons, that he was owed a debt of gratitude in 1975, and that this debt of gratitude was paid by giving him, gratis, 50 per cent of Talmino in 1990, can hardly be the full story.

The ownership of Talmino is, of course, a matter which is at present before the courts. I do not believe that the task of the court in this respect has been made any easier by the conclusions in this report, which conflict with Mr. Curran's report. In any event I believe the rightful owner of the loan note which is Talmino's only asset is the Irish taxpayer.

The cost of this report has caused widespread comment. I think it is fair to say that the inspectors have been very well paid for what they have produced. Individual payments to both inspectors of £250,000 approximately are difficult to justify. The fault of course lies with the Government. The Minister for Justice has responsibility under the Companies Act for the cost of the inquiry. It is quite clear, that an open-ended arrangement was entered into by the Minister for Justice to pay each inspector a fee of £1,750 a day for as long as the inquiry took. It was left to the discretion of the inspectors to decide which days they worked and whether they worked Saturdays or Sundays or not. In the event, I understand they claimed full fees for every day from the start of the inquiry until its conclusion, except for Christmas Day and St. Stephen's Day. The arrangement entered into by the Government in respect of costs was foolish, incompetent and negligent of the interests of the taxpayer.

The attempts of Deputy O'Malley the Minister for Industry and Commerce, to retrieve the situation were equally incompetent and foolish. He achieved nothing by his frequent phone calls in terms of reducing the cost of the inquiry and left himself open to charges of putting improper pressure on the inspectors. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has twice in this House rejected these charges, but they have been again repeated in the Sunday Business Post last Sunday and some documentation proporting to support the charges was published in last Sunday's paper. In the absence of legal action being taken by the Minister against the Sunday Business Post, I believe that the charge that a Government Minister put improper pressure on the inspectors must be investigated by the court which appointed the inspectors, and I call on Mr. Justice Lynch to initiate this inquiry.

I have no argument with the 24 conclusions the inspectors arrive at in section 21 of their report. I do, however, find the language used in the conclusions somewhat extravagant and not appropriate to a quasi judicial report. Conclusions such as conclusion 24, are very damaging. The inspectors are of the opinion that Mr. Comerford "is an unfit person to be a director of a company in the State".

This is, as I have said, a most damaging conclusion. There is much in the report in my opinion, which supports this conclusion, but because of the seriousness of what is being said, I hope the inspectors had the prudence to allow Mr. Comerford the opportunity to rebut this conclusion in accordance with the requirements of natural justice.

One of the matters of greatest public concern arising from the Greencore affair was the question of political interference. We all recall the former Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, on several occasions in this House rebutting allegations that he had influenced Mr. Cahill to appoint NCB as brokers to Siúicre Éireann, to advise on the flotation of the company. Mr. Cahill supported the Taoiseach in his rebuttals, but Mr. Comerford tells a different story. I believe the inspectors should have interviewed Deputy Haughey about this matter.

Another issue arises on the question of the fees paid to the inspectors. In a country as small as this and in a town with so few professional firms, it is difficult for any Minister to appoint an inspector of such seniority and experience who is not personally known to him or personally known to other Cabinet members. Very little hangs on allegations that have been made about acquaintanceships or personal friendships. I hope no real conflict of interest emerges in the future in regard to either of the two inspectors.

This is the first test of those sections of the Companies Act which allow the appointment of inspectors to investigate companies. It is a pity the first exercise of this very important power, has been tarnished by the row about fees, the charges made against the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the failure of both inspectors to clarify their position when these charges were first made, and by the inadequacies of the final report.

I do not believe we have seen the last of the Greencore affair, and I expect we will see ongoing litigation between many of the main players.

I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after Dáil Éireann, and insert:

calls on the Government to ensure, through the office of the Attorney General, that all necessary steps are taken to implement all the recommendations of the report in respect of the criminal and illegal activities it reveals; calls on the Government to issue a detailed statement outlining its full reaction to the report, and further calls on the Government to set down and publish procedures in conformity with the Companies Act, 1990 for the conduct of such inspections in future, in order to ensure that, (a) all aspects of the costs of future reports are fully agreed, and known in advance, and (b) the full and complete independence of any inspectors appointed is respected and protected.

In my contribution to this debate, I intend to deal with three issues; the allegations that have been made about interference in the work of the inspectors; the report prepared by the inspector, and the question of fees.

Before I refer to any of these headings, however, I want to make one general point of principle. This debate is taking place against a wider background — the background of chaos in the food industry in Ireland. The threat to jobs and livelihoods that we must now face in UMP is a massive one. If UMP is allowed to collapse, it will have enormous and painful repercussions thoughout the west in particular. Whatever can be done must be done to prevent that happening. There is a consensus about that in this House. The crisis in the food industry, of which UMP is a part, has been growing for some time. Along with others, I have been calling for a detailed root and branch analysis of the medium-term and long term situation facing the industry.

I have always believed that the Government must accept the obligations of drawing up a plan for the industry, based on the principle that no more monopolies will be allowed to be developed, and taking into account the need to develop new markets based on the excellence of the product and the quality of production. It has been plain to see for some time that the crisis growing in the food industry was attributable at least in part to the failure to the State to address the need for a co-ordinated approach to the development of the industry.

It was also clear that the failure to recognise the over-dependence of the industry generally on intervention and its failure to develop and diversify into value-added areas would have serious repercussions.

Despite all the warnings, the Government have turned a blind eye to the ramshackle way in which too much of the food industry is run. They have concentrated on crisis management rather than on development. They have preferred to sell off powerful productive assets like the Sugar Company rather than to use those assets as the focus of a properly planned and co-ordinated approach.

It is also now abundantly clear that the climate which the Government allowed to be created around the privatisation of the Irish Sugar Company contributed in no small measure to the wrongdoing with which that privatisation was marked. There was an air of adventurism, and downright greed, which the Government ought to have taken as as a serious warning. Rather than take the care that was necessary, the Government in effect handed a small group of people a glorious opportunity to make the kind of killing that greedy men dream about. They knew that the Government were so keen to see the flotation of the company that there would be the minimum of scrutiny of their behaviour.

That is the background against which the privatisation, in effect, went so badly wrong and the reputation of a new, and potentially very important company, was allowed to be besmirched.

Before I turn to the three headings that I referred to at the outset I want to put on record that there are still a great many difficult and awkward questions to be answered — and they must be asked, if this Parliament is to function as it should.

I believe too that not enough attention has been give to a careful analysis of the Greencore report. Like most Members of this House, I concentrated on the summary of the report in my initial reactions to it. I have now had time to consider it more carefully, and I have to say that I believe much of its significance has been missed, both in this House and outside.

In fact, although I intend to comment in some detail on the fees paid for the report later, I would have to say at this stage that a careful examination of its contents will reveal that the overall price could well be seen as value for the money.

One hopes that this debate will bring out crucial information, to clear up some of the controversial elements of this affair, that at the conclusion of the debate we will know more about the Government's future intentions and policy and that at the end of the day we will have a clearer picture of what the Minister for Industry and Commerce described last week in this House as "the truth, wherever it leads".

Much has been said and written about allegations of political interference in the work of the inspectors since their report was published. Most of those allegations centred on the Minister for Industry and Commerce. By common consent, the Minister, in a political tour de force, dealt most effectively with all such allegations in the House last week. Newspapers carried headlines like “O'Malley in the clear”, and there was a general consensus that the matter had been cleared up satisfactorily. Even the Taoiseach, albeit rather grudgingly, supported the Minister's version of events. Attention switched quickly to examining whether the Minister had in fact been set up, by some sort of Fianna Fáil dirty tricks.

I am afraid that is not as simple as that. I am afraid that a great many questions remain to be asked and answered about the issue of political interference.

Under the Companies Act, 1990 the inspectors are responsible to the High Court. Their investigation, essentially, covered the period prior to the establishment of Greencore, when Irish Sugar were still a semi-State company. In carrying out that investigation, they would have to be mindful of one thing above all. Any findings they make, any evidence they gather, any interview they conduct, can be used as evidence in civil or criminal proceedings. For that reason, inspectors appointed under the Act must take special care to protect any and all documents they collect in the course of their work, any written or other evidence underpinning their conclusions, or any notes they make. I am certain that the inspectors in this case have done that, and that all documents and notes relating to their inspection are available or can be made available to the appropriate authorities.

The inspection of course is not yet over. The High Court has still to decide a number of issues, including, presumably, the issue of who should be liable for the costs of the inspection, and what should happen to the papers collected by the inspectors, which form an integral part of their report. In those papers, I am sure, there is a wealth of evidence available to support a range of proceedings and actions. I intend to deal in more detail with the headings under which action is possible and necessary when I come to deal with the report itself.

Among the documentation would be any documentary evidence relating to political interference in the day-to-day work of the inspectors. If telephone calls were made, or any requests or demands issued, they would all have been carefully noted. A perusal of any such notes would quickly establish whether there was interference, and if so, what was its character.

I suggest strongly that the Attorney General should, as soon as it is possible, seek access to all that documentation. Not only would it be essential in terms of prosecuting any wrong-doing that has occurred and been uncovered by the inspectors, it would also clear the air in relation to the allegations of political interference. We may well ask why should the air be cleared? Let me put my position on the record. I am not satisfied that we have been given the most straightforward version possible of events.

I am in fact as concerned as I was last week about the possibility of political interference, of an unjustified and unwise kind. I believe the Taoiseach, for example, knows more about this matter than he has told us. As Minister for Finance at the commencement of this inquiry he had overall responsibility for certain matters. There are, I believe, things he could tell the House about these matters if he wished to do so.

I want it clearly understood that I am not alleging that there was any overt interference with the inspectors, with the view to changing the conclusions they reached. But I do not accept that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has been as forthcoming about this matter as he should have been. It may well be that the Minister's only concern was cost, and that he simply failed to allay the fears of the inspectors that he was interested in wider issues. If the Minister repeats that assertion, I am perfectly prepared to accept his word on it. But I hope, now that the Minister has had time to consider this matter, he will accept that he made a grave error in exerting so much pressure in the way that he did, and in allowing so many impressions and suspicions to be created in the minds of court-appointed officers that he was interfering for reasons which were less than entirely above board.

Whatever the reasoning or motivation, I have reason to believe that what happened in this case was entirely counterproductive and unwise, and must never happen again in an inspection. I have no wish to go further than that for the moment — but I am calling on the Minister for Industry and Commerce, if he is satisfied that there is nothing to hide, to join with me in urging the Attorney General to make the earliest possible application to the court for release of all the documents.

Before I leave this subject, it is only fair to refer to the joint statement issued by the inspectors on Thursday last, which said inter alia that “we wish to state and to confirm that the Minister for Industry and Commerce did not seek to influence the findings or conclusions in their final report which are based solely on the evidence before them”. That statement should be read carefully and literally. There is nothing in that statement which would support the headline in one newspaper, for example, “O'Malley did not interfere in Inquiry, say Inspectors”.

I want now to turn to the findings of the inspectors. As I said, a great deal of the emphasis in the reporting of the Greencore report relies on the pages of conclusions at pages 221-233 of the report. That emphasis has largely ignored many of the report's major findings. A careful reading of the report will enable a number of startling conclusions to be reached. I have deliberately chosen for the purpose of this speech to set them out in the starkest way possible. I should, perhaps, emphasise that the conclusions I have drawn from reading the report are my conclusions — the report is more guarded in its language — and they are the following:

1. Fifty-one per cent of Sugar Distributors Holdings was owned by the Irish Sugar Company; 19.83 per cent of Sugar Distributors Ltd., was owned by Messrs. Keleghan and Garavan; and the balance, 29.16 per cent was owned by Punch and Company Ltd., and Musgraves Ltd.

2. When the share owned by Punch and Company Ltd., and Musgraves Ltd., became available for sale, Garavan and Keleghan agreed with Messrs. Lyons and Tully to set up a company called Gladebrook to buy it.

3. The Sugar Company, which owned 51 per cent of Sugar Distributors Holdings, failed to buy the other 49 per cent shareholding because it believed that it was legally prevented from doing so.

4. The Sugar Company was wrong — or else it was incompetently advised. Gladebrook in fact had no greater priority in buying the shares than the Sugar Company had.

5. The original principals of Gladebrook — Garavan, Keleghan, Lyons and Tully — used every device possible to con the Sugar Company and to conceal their eventual purpose. Records were falsified, minutes were backdated, documents were altered, money was borrowed from a subsidiary of the Sugar Company under entirely false pretences and a range of serious breaches of company law took place — the Larceny Act, legislation covering the falsification of documents, the Prevention of Corruption Act. These are just some of the criminal activities involved.

6. The eventual purpose they had in mind was to buy 49 per cent of Sugar Distributors Holdings outright, using the Sugar Company's money, for the sole purpose of selling it back to the Sugar Company.

7. It is worth noting in passing that there is very little evidence that at this early stage Mr. Chris Comerford was an active participant in what was clearly a substantial fraud, but he quite clearly became involved, in ways I will deal with later.

8. By December 1988, the position with regard to Sugar Distributors Holdings was: Gladebrook owned 49 per cent and the Sugar Company owned 51 per cent. In the latter half of 1989, the Sugar Company were advised by IBI Corporate Finance that they would have to buy Gladebrook out if privatisation was to be successful. Although IBI were instructed to negotiate the purchase of Gladebrook's share, they carried out no valuation of Sugar Distributors Holdings, nor were they instructed to do so.

9. Despite not having any valuation, IBI believed that £6.5 million should be offered for Gladebrook's share, with an extra sweetener of £1 million. Chris Comerford tried to persuade them to go to £9 million. It was eventually agreed to offer £8 million — but the £1 million borrowed earlier by the Gladebrook principals from the Sugar Company would also be written off.

10. The eventual purchase price for Gladebrook's share was calculated on the basis of grossly inadequate and wrong information relating to the profitability of Sugar Distributors Holdings. Effectively, the profitability and other figures relating to subsidiaries of Sugar Distributors Holdings were extensively manipulated in order to make the company seem to be worth much more.

11. Some of the subsidiary companies of Sugar Distributors Holdings were themselves being operated for largely fraudulent purposes. Trilby Trading and Trilby Commodity Trading were such companies. These companies essentially evaded large amounts of Irish corporation tax by using various offshore devices.

12. At the time of the purchase of the Gladebrook share, the Irish Sugar Company entered into a number of "side agreements", which netted £250,000 each for Messrs. Tully, Lyons, Keleghan and Garavan. These sums of money were intended to be paid gross. Not only did the individuals named, not pay any tax, but it appears that the Sugar Company sought no tax advice about the payments.

13. There were a number of professional advisers involved in all of this. Their behaviour raises the most fundamental questions of integrity. The report is littered with examples of professional advisers being aware of their clients' attempts to claim tax relief which appears to have been fraudulent.

14. In addition, the management of the companies involved — the Sugar Company, Sugar Distributors Holdings, and Sugar Distributors Limited were extraordinarily lax, to put it at its mildest, in their adherence to basic fundamental requirements of company law. Again, the report is littered with examples of records and minutes being falsified, backdated and altered, with events being recorded that never happened, and with events that should have been recorded never being recorded at all.

15. It is clear that at least part of the purpose of much of this activity was to defraud the Revenue Commissioners. In the case of Sugar Distributors Limited, documents were deliberately forged in order to make a substantial fraudulent claim of manufacturing tax relief on corporation tax.

This last conclusion is one of the most fundamental in the report. It is one of a number of instances where the inspectors have found evidence of tax fraud. I have no way of saying categorically how much this tax fraud is worth.

I believe, however, that several million pounds of tax due to the State has been lost — the task of the Revenue Commissioners now is to get it back for the taxpayers.

The question that now arises in relation to all of these issues is what action is to be taken. I am not clear from the Minister's statement this morning what action he wants taken. It is clear to me that action is required on two levels. There is a great deal of money owing to the State, and there has been a great deal of wrongdoing.

The inspectors' report, coupled with the ancillary documentation I referred to, is the equivalent to a Garda file on all these matters. It is a matter of some urgency that the appropriate authorities secure all these documents. It will, of course, be a matter for the court to decide in the end what is the best approach to take with the accumulated evidence, and I have no wish to interfere with the rights of the court in this matter.

If I were asked my opinion, however, I would argue that since the appropriate authorities in this case involve both the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Garda, the Department of Justice, and the Revenue Commissioners, the obvious person to co-ordinate action now is the Attorney General. For this reason, as well as for the reason I mentioned earlier under the heading of political interference, I intend to continue to press the Taoiseach in particular until I have been satisfied that the Attorney General, or whoever else is decided on by the court, has acted to take possession of all this documentation.

I have not so far said anything about Mr. Chris Comerford. It is clear that he has been very strongly criticised by the inspectors in their report. After reading the report, I have come to the conclusion that the inspectors could have been just as hard on a number of other individuals, particularly Messrs. Tully, Lyons, Garavan and Keleghan and Mr. Murphy, the Cork solicitor, whose hand is in all of these transactions also, but I cannot disagree either with what the inspectors have had to say about Mr. Comerford. I have to confess that I still have not made up my mind about whether the inspectors are correct in their conclusion that Mr. Comerford was not entitled to any beneficial interest in Talmino, which ended up owning a share of Gladebrook.

It is clear from the report that there is no honour among thieves. Mr. Comerford facilitated the rest of the gang in every way he possibly could. He accepted money from them, which was a circumvention of public policy at best, and a bribe at worst. He failed absolutely to protect the interests of the Sugar Company in their dealings with Gladebrook. Either he did that because he was anxious to facilitate the people who were paying him money under the table, or else he did it because every penny added to the value of Gladebrook represented money into his own pocket.

One thing is certainly clear — it would be a travesty of justice if the golden handshake agreed by the board for Mr. Comerford were ever paid. It has been frozen, and it must remain frozen.

Against the background of the report, and even if one accepts that no other member of the board of the Sugar Company — including the chairman, Mr. Cahill — was ever guilty of any impropriety, I find it impossible to understand how people who were members of the Sugar Company board then can avoid taking at least some moral responsibility for all the things that happened under their noses. I would like to think that, if I were in Mr. Cahill's position and had presided over this fiasco, I would have the good grace to offer my resignation.

I want to conclude by saying a word about the fees paid to the inspectors. As has been mentioned, those fees were very substantial; there is no doubt about that, but these two inspectors employed all of their professional skills to uncover a carefully constructed and very elaborate series of deliberate frauds, including tax evasion, false accounting, larceny, and, above all, the corruption of trusted and privileged public officials and they have done so with enough detail to be of enormous assistance in bringing the perpetrators of these frauds to justice.

There may be those in this debate who will be tempted to make political capital out of having a go at the inspectors. I wonder how many who will criticse the fees will have read the report in detail? I see no reason why the full costs of this inspection should not be recovered from Greencore, which is a publicly quoted and profitable company, the flagship of the food industry. I see no reason why the State should not be in a position to recoup the costs of the inspection several times over, provided the Revenue Commissioners now take the action towards which the report is pointing them.

I am satisfied from inquiries I have made that the fees in this case were agreed in advance after a brief negotiation, which included consultation with the Department of Justice, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Finance, and the Attorney General's office. It is my understanding, the fees being paid to lawyers representing the State agencies in front of the Beef Tribunal were used as a guideline and, in fact, the fees fixed in this case were pitched slightly below that level. I would invite any member of the Government who wishes to do so to contradict this assertion.

Examined in detail, this report tells a very sad and sorry story. It is a story of corruption and greed within the public sector. It is a particularly painful story to read if one believes in the public sector, as I do. I have found it hard to come to terms with the fact that in one company in which there has been so much public investment, so much public confidence, and so much public trust, there has sadly also been so much corruption. This must be painful too to other people working within Greencore and the Sugar Company. Some of the finest public servants I have ever known have worked for that company, and I can only imagine the sense of betrayal that they must feel at this stage.

I have reasonable confidence that Greencore can rise above this scandal. The uncovering of the scandal will, in its own way help to restore the spirit of public service that has been a feature of our economic development in the past, from the thirties, and in which we have taken so much pride. I hope that this report becomes required reading throughout the whole sphere of public administration. There are many lessons to be learned from the report for the future.

Far from the abuse which has been heaped on the heads of the inspectors involved, this House owes them a vote of thanks. The best way in which we can express that is to ensure that the authorities in this State do their job, and that the white collar criminals uncovered by this report, together with their ill-gotten gains, are brought to book.

I share the view which has just been expressed by Deputy Spring. There has been a long tradition of honour in regard to the manner in which state companies have been administered. I wish to see this restored and I am sure that that is also the wish of everyone in the House. I am certain, now that Greencore have rid themselves of the incubus surrounding their formation that they will proceed to play an integral and progressive part in the development of the processes for which they are responsible.

I remember a time when the honour and integrity to which Deputy Spring referred formed an integral part of the Sugar Company's operations. Exactly ten years ago, in 1982, when I was Minister for Agriculture I had regular meetings with the chairman, Dr. Jim Fitzpatrick, and the chief executive, the late Maurice Sheehy. We discussed ways and means of putting the operations of the Sugar Company in good order.

One of the people at that time who was causing Mr. Sheehy and Dr. Fitzpatrick some concern was the person who was subsequently appointed chief executive of that company, Mr. Comerford. They were worried about the fact that he was engaged in conspiratorial activities within the ambit of the Sugar Company to the detriment of the operations which were being well run by Dr. Fitzpatrick, a respected banker, and Mr. Sheehy.

Following the general election in late 1982 however I left that position, and the Government over which Dr. FitzGerald presided as Taoiseach, including Deputy Deasy as Minister for Agriculture and Deputy Dukes as Minister for Finance, decided to respond to the promptings of Mr. Comerford. A palace revolution occurred within the Sugar Company following which the chairman, Dr. Fitzpatrick and Mr. Sheehy, left. A new team was installed by Dr. FitzGerald's Government, Mr. Cahill being appointed chairman and Mr. Chris Comerford chief executive.

They acquired a certain reputation for reforming the Sugar Company, whereas the Sugar Company had been put well on the way towards a profitable position under the leadership of Dr. Fitzpatrick and Maurice Sheehy. All that happened to enhance the alleged reputation of the subsequent holders of the offices of chairman and chief executive of the Sugar Company was that the factories at Tuam and Thurles were chopped. This led to artificial profits in the books for which a susceptible public gave credit to the new regime of Messrs. Cahill and Comerford. I say this because Deputy Spring mentioned the tradition of integrity which has always existed within Irish State companies and which certainly, during my brief time as Minister for Agriculture, was there under the leadership of Dr. Fitzpatrick and Mr. Sheehy. That tradition goes back to the time of Lieutenant General Michael Costello who was of course a tremendously dynamic influence in the Sugar Company years earlier.

Therefore, a company with a very honourable tradition has been brought into gross disrepute. A conspiratorial swindle of enormous proportions, involving criminal profits in the region of £8 million, was organised and directed by Mr. Comerford and engaged in by other executives who have been named, both of the Sugar Company and Irish Sugar Distributors Holdings Limited, a subsidiary of the Sugar Company.

That is the sorry story to be found in the conclusions in the report. The question of subsequent action is a matter for the State authorities concerned. However, the Minister has assured us that the Government will not shrink from whatever action is appropriate to deal with gross malfeasance on the part of Mr. Comerford as chief executive and the other executives involved in this criminal conspiracy, based on blatant insider knowledge, to trade shares through the vehicle of a company called Gladebrook who held a 49 per cent shareholding, which was in fact a management shareholding, in Irish Sugar Distributors Holdings Limited to gain an appreciated profit without any enhanced trading. They made a cool profit of £8 million in a matter of months, availing themselves of a loan facility under the control of the Irish Sugar Company and making this profit at no personal risk and without any personal investment.

That is a sorry state of affairs. It is quite clear what happened and it really did not require a report to unveil that criminal conspiracy. It was quite evident when Deputy Noonan and I participated in earlier debates last September and October on the media and in the House that this was the case. The matter is very serious and it forms the bulk of the recommendations in the report. This weighty report cost over £1 million and it basically refers to the malfeasance of Mr. Comerford and his associates, but that has been self evident since last September. If that is all there is to it over £1 million has been spent on a report that has patently dodged the main issue because the most serious matter has not been addressed. We have here a straightforward, old fashioned swindle based on inside knowledge on the part of executives who got greedy and totally rejected traditions of integrity in the public service which were part of the ethos of the company to which they belonged.

However, a much more serious matter involved goes back to the body of the report but does not find expression in the conclusions, which relate only to the self-evident matters to which I have referred. I ask the House and the Government to look very closely at pages 83-95 in which are set out the details of the manner in which the Gladebrook-Sugar Company transaction was organised. The executives who participated in the arrangements which resulted in a sum of £8 million — unearned — going into the hands of the self-same executives, were aided and abetted by two teams of professional advisers one on each side. It is very important to note that in the body of the report — but not referred to in the conclusions — it is spelled out quite clearly that the procedures adopted in the preparation of the financial projections were deficient. I refer the House to the second last paragraph on page 90 of the report but, as I said, it is not referred to in the 24 conclusions which relates entirely to the wrongdoings of Mr. Comerford and his associates.

The procedures adopted in the preparation of the projections on which the valuation of £8,680,000 was based were deficient in the view of the two inspectors, yet that is buried in the report. It is quite clear, right through the pages to which I referred, involving the establishment of two sets of advisers, that Mr. Lyons in a memorandum — I refer to page 84 — suggested that an independent arbitrator of high standing would be sufficient. However, that was not enough, the advisers saw to it that two teams of advisers were recruited, the Investment Bank of Ireland recruited by the Sugar Company to conduct negotiations on their behalf in regard to the acquisition of the 49 per cent Gladebrook share and another team to advise the executives concerned who were engaged in the sale of the Gladebrook share to their own company. Pannell Kerr Forster had a substantial team sitting around the table opposed by the Investment Bank of Ireland team of advisers. Instead of having an independent arbitrator to fix the matter there were two teams of substantial advisers. The simple recommendation from Mr. Lyons to Mr. Comerford was that an arbitrator of high standing and acceptable to both parties should be appointed. However, that advice was ignored and instead their two teams of heavy advisers were brought in to discuss to what extent the original purchase of the Gladebrook shares should be enhanced and increased.

To sum up, I refer the Government and the House to the vital pages, 83-95, because therein lies the heart of the matter. If we intend to have privatisation procedures of this kind in future the way of doing so is not just by establishing a code of ethics, it is by having a competent board who will see that an arbitrator or a panel of people acceptable to Government Departments will be appointed to deal with a matter of this kind and to keep everything above board. It is quite clear that the people who stand indicted in this case are the advisers on each side of this transaction who helped to put £8 million into the pockets of the conspirators. The advisers on each side who prepared this inflationary figure of £8.6 million and the board of the company at that time, the present chairman of Greencore who was then chairman of the Sugar Company and anyone else who was on the board of the Sugar Company at that time — who may still be on the board of Greencore — if they respond to the basic requirement of integrity should resign forthwith. Furthermore, if the Government are serious in their intent in future in regard to privatisation or other financial deals of this kind, they should ensure that the financial advisers who conspired to put £8 million illicitly into people's pockets, are not employed on any State assignment in future.

Unfortunately, this is a very sad episode from beginning to end. I have some knowledge of the affairs of the former Irish Sugar Company — and subsequently Greencore — because, as Minister for Agriculture from 1982 to 1985, I was responsible for the Sugar Company. It was my job to appoint the chairman and board of directors and to ensure that the company were run in a proper manner. During my term of office I was very much of the opinion that things were totally above board. I believe the matters relating to the inquiry happened subsequent to my stay in office.

Having said that, it may be of interest to the House to hear that I was the Minister who appointed the chairman of the board, Mr. Bernie Cahill, the present chairman of the board of Greencore. I think this dates back to 1985. Shortly afterwards the board selected the principal figure in the inquiry, Mr. Chris Comerford, as chief executive of the Sugar Company. Subsequently, I appointed Mr. Comerford as a member of the board. It was normal procedure for the chief executive to be a member of the board. Mr. Comerford's predecessor, Mr. Sheehy, had been a member of the board and, as I said, it was normal practice for the chief executive to automatically be a member of the board of the Sugar Company.

Mr. Cahill has been a controversial figure throughout this episode whether as chairman of the Irish Sugar Company or of Greencore. From time to time allegations have been made against him. I must say that I have no time for allegations which cannot be substantiated. I have never had anything but the highest regard for Mr. Cahill. He was a man of high quality and integrity and was totally above board in all his dealings. I for one could not say a word against Mr. Cahill. Perhaps his style of chairmanship may not be liked or appreciated by everyone — he can be a bit domineering. Maybe this has something to do with the board members not being fully au fait with events when it is obvious that they should have known what was happening. However, we cannot all be perfect in every single part of our make-up.

This matter reminds me a little of the Goodman episode on which there was a debate in this House. People are inclined to run for cover, get on band wagons and condemn people when things go wrong or appear to go wrong. As a result of the efforts of Mr. Cahill and Mr. Comerford, there was a massive transition within the Irish Sugar Company from a situation where the company were incurring massive losses to a situation where the company became gilt edged, a profit maker and one of the flagships of Irish industry and, in particular, the Irish food industry. To my knowledge, no Irish company publicly quoted on the Stock Exchange had been in such demand as Greencore, formerly the Irish Sugar Company.

It is obvious that Mr. Comerford was an outstanding executive and knew his job inside out and upside down. It has been revealed that he was head-hunted by other companies such as the Goodman organisation because of his knowledge of the food industry and his achievements. Of course, success in the business world does not always mean that people are nice. At times one has to be ruthless. Ruthlessness carries with it a certain stigma and can lead to shady activities. I doubt if there is any successful business man in the higher echelons of business activity in this country who has not had to be a little shady and considerably ruthless at times. That is the nature of big business; it is cut throat. It is unfortunate that sometimes unethical procedures take place. I am not condoning that, nobody in this House should condone it, but it is a fact of life and we have to face up to it.

The Irish Sugar Company were turned around primarily by those two individuals. Having said that, their predecessors, Mr. Jim Fitzpatrick, who was chairman of the company up to the mid-eighties, and Mr. Sheehy, now deceased, who was the chief executive, were two outstanding individuals. However, they did not get the type of political support they sought and needed to make the Irish Sugar Company into a profit-making organisation. They constantly pleaded with the Government, with me and with other Ministers for a two-factory company. As the House knows, the Irish Sugar Company had four major sugar beet plants up to the middle to late eighties — Mallow, Carlow, Thurles and Tuam. It was obvious that while the Tuam factory was kept open the Sugar Company could not be a viable entity. Going further down the line, it was obvious from a business point of view that while the Thurles factory remained open, the company could not be a totally viable entity. When they became a two-factory concern the company became highly profitable.

There were other unfortunate elements which helped in the overall viability of the company. However, these are a blot on our efforts to have a viable horticultural industry. As well as shedding the Thurles and Tuam factories, along the way the Sugar Company shed a whole lot of enterprises which were highly desirable but which did not attain financial viability. I am referring to projects such as Fastnet Foods, Midleton Foods, the enterprise in Limerick, etc. The company had seven or eight enterprises relating to horticulture and the processing of horticultural products, for example, the potato factory in Tuam. All these enterprises went by the wayside. As a result our horticultural industry has suffered severely. No one has taken up the slack since the demise of those ancillary activities of the Sugar Company. It is a major blot on both our private and public enterprises that we have not been able to sustain a horticultural industry side by side with a sugar beet industry.

If Greencore had those horticultural enterprises today they could make them work. However, in their efforts to achieve profitability, to get the maximum return for their shareholders, and to please the Stock Exchange and the economists, they may not want enterprises which are not highly profitable. Considering that we have a guaranteed quota of over 200,000 tonnes from the EC, sugar beet production is profitable. It is a captive market and all that needs to be done is to process the sugar beet. The fewer processing enterprises that exist, the more profitable will be the operation. Therefore, by reducing the enterprises from four to two the operation became a success overnight. It would probably be better still if the number could be reduced to one, but that is neither socially nor politically acceptable. Therefore, the two factory concept will probably exist for ever more.

An element which is not alluded to and which poses a great danger for Greencore, is that the GATT negotiations which may be concluded this year, certainly next year, may result in third countries producing vast quantities of much cheaper sugar from sugar cane. If the GATT negotiations allow free access to European markets of sugar produced from sugar cane, we could be swamped with sugar produced at half the cost of production from sugar beet. The Australians can now produce sugar from sugar cane at less than half the cost of producing it in Europe from sugar beet. That must be borne in mind. Greencore may not always be the gilt-edged investment they are believed to be. Their future very much depends on the outcome of the GATT negotiations.

I place much of the blame for the wrongdoings and mistakes in the Sugar Company on the board of the company, and they must take responsibility. The Minister who was in charge of the board at the time of the wrongdoings has much to answer for. A Minister is expected to be aware of what is happening on a board under his control, whatever board that may be. The then Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy O'Kennedy, made a grave and costly error in not reappointing to that board a senior civil servant from his Department. It is my experience that every commercial State body have as a member of their board a senior civil servant from the relevant Department — in this case the Department of Agriculture and Food — or from the Department of Finance to ensure that work is carried out in a proper and ethical manner. This sharp practice went unnoticed because there was no senior civil servant on the board of the Sugar Company and, therefore, there was no reporting system back to the Minister and the Government to inform them of what was happening.

The Deputy's time has expired.

I am sorry I do not have an opportunity to elaborate on that matter. The wrongdoings in the Sugar Company would never have taken place, or if they had taken place they would have been nipped in the bud, had there been proper ministerial control and responsibility and if the Government were aware, as they should have been, of the happenings at that time.

This is an extraordinary report. It is extraordinary in its costliness and in the confusion which surrounded its publication, which was evident in the few days after publication. It is extraordinary in terms of the tacky, sordid and unpardonable affair it chronicles and it is extraordinary in the language of its findings. If I were to praise it for anything it would be for the latter. Above all, the report is extraordinary in that it provides this House and, indeed, the Oireachtas as a whole with a measure of how poorly we value the institutions of parliamentary democracy in this State. My belief is that the job done by these inspectors at such an extraordinary fee to the taxpayers could have been done much better by committees of this House. The latter point about our disregard for the system and for parliamentary democracy and the first point are, therefore, related.

I have no doubt that the Irish people, particularly the Irish taxpayers, were scandalised at the cost of this report. The level of fees paid to the gentlemen involved is obscene. I hope, and I anticipate, that the extraordinary open-handed generosity visited on Messrs. Foley and Barry at the expense of the taxpayer will be subjected to the most critical and probing examination by the Committee of Public Accounts and by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I have no doubt, having listened to the chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, that that will, indeed, be the case. To pay Messrs. Barry and Foley £200 per hour for virtually every hour they were engaged in the production of this report is nothing short of a national scandal.

From my inquiries, the best and most prestigious accounting and auditing firms in this city demand fees, for all of their operations, considerably lower than £200 per hour. I am not in a position to judge whether the gentlemen in question are at the top of their profession, but until this report was published their names were unknown to me. The fees of £200 per hour are calculated without taking into account the extraordinary generosity of the expenses involved. It is nothing short of extraordinary that these inspectors received, in individual fees, twice the total allocation of funds available to all the Oireachtas committees currently operating in the two Houses. Each one of these inspectors received, in personal fees, exactly twice the allocation of all the Oireachtas committees for this year.

In 1992, £40,000 is available for consulting fees to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies. Out of this paltry sum the committee will seek to complete reports on Aer Lingus, Bord na gCon, Iarnród Éireann, RTE, VHI, the national lottery, the NBA, Aramara Teoranta and certain aspects of the ESB's operations. The work will be completed only because there are excellent consultants, inspectors and professionals available in Dublin and in the country who are willing to work for the Oireachtas, partly because of the prestige that goes with such work, and because there are Members of the Oireachtas who are willing to load the task of overseeing the operations of commercial State enterprises on top of their already heavy schedules.

The imbalance between the cost of this report and the resources available to the committees of the Oireachtas is surely a measure of how seriously we take the work of the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is an extraordinary contrast between the respect of the House for its institutions and for the work of strangers. The Dáil, rightly, devotes a whole day to the debating of this report, yet in the entire life of the Dáil we have not devoted one hour to debate any report produced by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies or any other committee of the Houses. For that negligence the Oireachtas as a whole stands indicted.

The second extraordinary element in this report is the confusion that surrounded its publication. The points made in the Sunday Business Post two weeks ago and repeated subsequently on a television programme were reasonably clear-cut. I would have thought that the inspectors, encumbered as they were with their new-found wealth, could at a minimum provide a clear and unambiguous statement of the position. Instead, we got the kind of confused muddle that would have landed the most inexperienced and underpaid politician in very hot water. This raises a fundamental question not just about competence but about the way in which inspectors and others who would follow in their trail are to be recruited. Are they to be brought into these most highly paid positions purely on the basis of patronage? Is there an old boys' network operating in the Law Library, charged with divvying up the spoils? Given the sums involved, I feel that we have some right to know the answers to those questions.

Another fundamental question is, how are such operations to be controlled? If the consultants or the inspectors are given open-ended and highly remunerated briefs, how is performance to be measured?

In the House last week Deputy John Bruton suggested — in contradiction, I would suggest, to a point implicit in something said by Deputy Barry earlier — that the Executive and the agents of the Executive had no right to intervene in an inspector's performance while undertaking an inspection on behalf of the courts. Deputy Bruton may well be correct in that interpretation, but it does beg the question as to who is in control of those people? Clearly, under the present arrangements an inspectorship could be equated to striking a vein of gold in one's back garden — something to be quietly exploited without bothering the neighbours. Unless there is some clear form of control of operations, there will be more of this.

As arrangements stand, the inspectors report to the courts. They are the courts' responsibility and the courts will have to exercise a tighter degree of control on those who we entrust to their control, otherwise the law will have to be reexamined.

I turn now to the central matter in this affair — the weakness of the board structure in commercial State-sponsored bodies. The role of the board of a State-sponsored body is relatively clear cut. I am sorry Deputy Deasy is not here because I would take issue with something he said about the position of civil servants on those boards. The boards of State-sponsored bodies are charged with the implementation of Government policy, they appoint the top management, they exercise financial control over the operations of the company, they are charged with the task of stimulating development, they are required to maintain liaison with the Minister — and this is where I would take issue with the previous speaker and make the point that it is a responsibility of the board and, more specifically, of the chairman of the board to maintain that liaison — they supervise personnel policy and are charged with the task of overall measurement of the performance of the management and control of the executive of the State body.

We have to ask ourselves a number of specific questions. The first and most obvious question is whether it is possible for a part-time board to fulfil all of those tasks. The second question is whether that can be done by a board which at best is paid a pittance. There was an intervention earlier today when one speaker was discussing the question of boards and the choice of their personnel. I could do no more than recommend any Member of the House interested in the most cogent arguments about the make up of boards and their possible political connections to look back to the early seventies, to a very fine speech made in the House by the late Deputy John Kelly, who, to my mind, put forward the most cogent argument for the current make up of boards. I would argue that the problem is not with the make up of boards but that the boards as currently constituted have no independent source of information regarding the company.

The Joint Oireachtas Committee on State-sponsored Bodies have undertaken recently a review of the internal audit arrangements of State enterprises and have also been examining the issue of establishing audit boards associated with a board. The ideal would be to generate value-free information from within the company and make that available to the non-executive members of the board. It is obvious that the 19th century concept of a board of directors has reached the end of its useful life. Some new form of board structure will have to be evolved. It is obvious that in this particular case there was the most scandalous criminal abuse and exploitation of the weaknesses of the board structure by a number of executives of a State-sponsored body.

The style of leadership in the Sugar Company at the time of these events was undoubtedly remarkable. The Joint Oireachtas Committee on State-sponsored Bodies in 1989 had first-hand experience of just how remarkable was the style of leadership in the Sugar Company. Mr. Comerford at that time prevented members of the board getting summonses to appear before a committee of this House, and he got away with it. The reality was that we did not have the power to subpoena Mr. Comerford and members of the board. We had to depend on him to transmit our invitations, and he refused to do so. Of course, he could only have done that with the support of the chairman at the time, who happens to be the present chairman of Greencore. It will be recalled that difficulties in seeing members of the board were not the only impediment put in the way of members of the joint Oireachtas committee in examining the affairs of the Sugar Company in 1989. At that time allegations which, to my belief, emerged from within the executive of the Sugar Company were made against a Member of this House who was also chairman of the joint Oireachtas committee. Rather than do their job, i.e. examine the affairs of the Sugar Company in 1989, an Oireachtas committee was sent on a wild goose chase for six months. To our own discredit, in spite of members of the Oireachtas committee suspecting that something was amiss, we failed to see that we were in fact being sent on a wild goose chase.

As my time is now almost up I wish to reach some conclusions. This report has been extraordinarily costly. I have already said that I believe that the per hour fee paid to the inspectors is a matter of scandal. It is obscene. I trust and I hope that the inspectors are up to date in all of their affairs. I know, as every other Member of this House knows, that if a small contractor is looking for work related to a State body, his or her company must have tax clearance, that farmers must have RSI numbers and so on.

The report highlights an incredible episode of immoral and manipulative behaviour within a State-sponsored body. I believe that the action of these individuals at this time has done a discredit not only to the people of this country but also to all of the very fine people who have served for many generations in Irish State-sponsored bodies and in the Irish public service as a whole. I believe very firmly, and I am thankful to be able to put it on the record, that the immoral, manipulative and illegal behaviour that is chronicled in this sad report while, perhaps, being unique, certainly falls far short of the norm for behaviour throughout our public service. I have to admit that I do not share the high opinion of individuals mentioned by a previous speaker in this regard. There is very severe personal responsibility on behalf of all of the executives. Whatever their contribution to that company was in the past, it was certainly undermined and any good they did wiped out by the bad they did in this affair. The behaviour of executive personnel in the Sugar Company is unpardonable. However, it has done one good thing, it has illustrated just how weak are the control mechanisms we have. We must learn from this episode, from this sordid affair, from this report. The taxpayers have paid very dearly for this report, £1 million, and we must get £1 million value out of it.

I suggest that, rather than invest further money — as we are doing in the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Processing Industry, as we did in the case of the Telecom Éireann affair — we give serious consideration to putting those kinds of resources into an inspectorate which would be available to this House, which could be called in by committees of this House to investigate wrongdoing and report to this House. For example, the Comptroller and Auditor General supports the work of the Committee of Public Accounts. There is no full-time consultant with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies. The Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities can resort to a consultant, subject to the most stringent financial controls on their hiring.

The reality is that we are dealing in a world in which standards which applied previously no longer seem to apply. We are dealing in a world in which tighter control is necessary. However, we must establish a balance between the control we introduce, on the one hand, and, on the other, the freedom we rightly give public servants to go about their tasks. The best way of doing that would be to avoid costly exercises such as this. Rather we should decide to establish proper committees of this House, giving them the proper resources to carry out their task so that they, and an independent inspectorate available to them, can produce at much less cost than this episode, reports to this House which hopefully will throw clearer light on subjects investigated.

Events surrounding the publications of this report on Greencore constitute great intrigue. I submit that with the intricacies of so many personalities and companies involved in the scandal that subsequently emerged one would need to call on the full experience and capacity of the doyen of investigators involved in intrigue, namely, Inspector Morse.

He would be cheaper.

However, with inspectors Foley and Barry appointed under section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990 and Inspector Curran under section 14 of the same Act, it is regrettable that there were aspects of the Greencore affair not addressed in the final report. It would appear that for a considerable length of time in Irish Sugar there was great tension at top management level, which arose primarily as a result of the improved financial position of the company and the apparent anxiety of management to share in its future profitability. It would appear that it became difficult for management to accept that the salaries they were being paid for the excellent job they were doing, to turn around the financial affairs of Irish Sugar were not adequate. Thus, it was not surprising that Mr. Comerford was considering a move to the private sector where he would gain more substantially from his undoubted talents. It was unfortunate, downright unacceptable, that so much time was spent by public servants seeking to manipulate ways, through financial dealings, to make substantial profits for themselves.

It is difficult to understand how so many difficulties should have arisen in Irish Sugar in view of the number of financial advisers and solicitors employed by them. The report details some of those companies, comprised of national and international names, such as A & L Goodbody, Arthur Cox, Pannell Kerr Forster, the Investment Bank of Ireland and NCB stockbrokers, to name but a few. It is difficult to understand how so many fragments of information could be missing from their prospectus prior to the privatisation of Irish Sugar.

It is worth giving some examples of what I am speaking about. First, there was the claim by the managing director of Irish Sugar that he was actually the beneficial owner, through a trust established for his adult children, of the company called Talmino which was not disclosed in the prospectus despite the fact that eight professional advisers posed that question before privatisation. In addition, the acquisition by Odlums of Milford Flour Milling Company in Donegal in January 1991 and the letter of comfort issued on behalf of the Sugar Company by the Ulster Bank in respect of that purchase was not disclosed in the prospectus. Odlums continued to give the impression of there being competition in the flour milling business by not disclosing this information which would have ramifications for competition law in the European Community. Then, the fact that Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Limited changed their shares structure, prior to flotation, so that 90 per cent of the company's activities could be deemed to be in manufacturing, and the voting rights changed, to qualify for the 10 per cent manufacturing rate of tax, backdated to the time of the Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Limited take-over was not mentioned either in the prospectus, which had the effect of substantially increasing the value of the company. There was also the fact that the chairman of Irish Sugar at the time was also the chairman of Feltrim Mining, and was anxious to obtain a loan from Irish Sugar to help Feltrim Mining. They are just some examples of information that did not appear anywhere or, more importantly, on the prospectus where it was legally bound to appear under Stock Exchange rules.

The question that begs to be asked is: with so many financial advisers and solicitors employed by Irish Sugar in the privatisation of the company how could so many engage in a cover-up, depriving shareholders of that type of information, they being the people proposing to invest in the company? In fact institutional investors, and the London Stock Exchange, in particular, were so concerned about the inaccurate information emanating from Irish Sugar, appearing on the documentation prior to flotation, that special consideration and conditions were sought in the last few days before flotation, took place, on 18 April 1991.

As a result of correspondence from M. J. Horgan & Co., Solicitors and A. L. Goodbody, Solicitors, concerning the fraudulent accounting practices in the Sugar Company, inaccuracies in the accounts and prospectus, details regarding the acquisition of Milford Flour Milling Company and the level of fines expected resulting from an EC investigation into Irish Sugar, pending in the European Commission, the London Stock Exchange and other institutional investors insisted on a massive £180 million guarantee from the Government in respect of any liabilities arising from the privatisation of Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teo. That information was not disclosed to shareholders or taxpayers on any occasion.

It is most unusual for an EC inspector to visit any Irish company on two occasions within a short period, which is precisely what happened in respect of Irish Sugar. It is anticipated that a substantial fine will be imposed shortly by the European Commission in respect of the anti-competitive practices in Irish Sugar prior to privatisation.

It is my view that the financial advisers of the company knew everything about the transactions taking place and about the missing information to which I have referred. I contend the role of those financial advisers was nothing short of criminal. The fact that £1 million was borrowed by executives of a public company from a financial subsidiary of Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Limited — which was called ISM — but never disclosed in any accounts of ISM is certainly unacceptable. For example, there was no valuation undertaken by the Investment Bank of Ireland advisers to the Sugar Company, regarding the take-over of Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Ltd., no scrutiny of value for money in respect of this proposed transaction. Reference to minutes of meetings, backdated and containing information never even discussed at meetings in respect of loan facilities being made available to executives clearly is also unacceptable. This has a bearing on section 53 of the Companies Act whose provisions outline the obligation of any director or secretary to notify a company of shareholdings and section 202 of the Companies Act, 1990, outlining the duty of auditors in respect of the keeping of books of accounts. In my view many of the financial advisers were guilty of an offence under section 202, never referred to in the final report.

In addition, it is very difficult to believe that the chairman, in particular, and some of the directors did not have the slightest information about the management intrigue taking place in Irish Sugar. In view of the fact that Messrs. Cahill and Comerford worked very closely together I do not accept that the chairman of the company could have been unaware of what was happening. Indeed, he has already issued conflicting information in the report of Mr. Comerford in respect of the appointment of financial advisers following a meeting with the then Taoiseach, Deputy Charles J. Haughey, at Kinsealy.

It is difficult to comprehend also how the chairman of a board of directors of a company retains that position in spite of the fact that there has been a substantial investigation into that and related companies under sections 8 and 14 of the Companies Act.

Equally it is amazing that the Taoiseach, when Minister for Finance, was arranging for the removal of Mr. Cahill from his post before he lost his position as Cabinet Minister. Obviously, his view has changed in recent times when one bears in mind a statement by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Bertie Ahern, on the publication of the report, that he saw no reason Mr. Cahill should not continue to be chairman of Greencore. Responsibility for the efficient operations of Irish Sugar is a matter for the chairman, board of directors and their chief executive. It is obvious from the report there was a hidden agenda never placed before any of the board members. Mr. Cahill, as chairman of the board, should take full responsibility. In any other democracy and in any other credible public company that chairman would have resigned. However, one would be expecting too much for this course of action to be taken in the Republic of Ireland.

Shortly before Irish Sugar was floated on the Stock Exchange, a former director of Irish Sugar, Mr. Charles Lyons, met the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, Deputy Seamus Brennan, in the Department of Transport, Kildare Street, to brief him on the irregularities in the Irish Sugar Company before privatisation took place. Mr. Lyons briefed the Minister on the serious question marks over the legality of the flotation of Irish Sugar as Greencore and said he was taking this course of action as he was concerned that the company would be operating effectively before they were privatised. Deputy Brennan gave an assurance at that meeting that he would inform the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Michael O'Kennedy, of that information, information which appeared in the Sunday Independent in December 1991. Despite the threat of legal action by the Minister, Deputy Brennan, he has failed since to take any such step. He dismissed the meeting as just a routine one, and said that Mr. Lyons was just another constituent seeking personal intervention to gain employment.

The Government through the Minister, Deputy Brennan, were fully informed of the irregularities in Irish Sugar in April 1991 and chose to do nothing about it. In view of the fact that at least one Government Minister knew of the irregular activities in Greencore before privatisation, the Government were negligent in the manner in which the privatisation of Irish Sugar was handled. The Government knowingly privatised a State company with an illegal share prospectus, bought their way out of trouble, and satisfied the London Stock Exchange and institutional investors by underwriting a liability on behalf of the Irish taxpayers in respect of the privatisation of Irish Sugar to the tune of £180 million.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, has recently come in for some criticism with regard to the matters referred to in the report and his alleged interference in the activities of the inspectors. The inspectors were frequently interrupted and called out when taking evidence from witnesses during the course of the inquiry. On one occasion as many as three calls were made by the Minister to the inspectors. What was the Minister really concerned about? He alleges that he was concerned about the cost of the inquiry and the delay in its publication and he mentioned also the structure of the inquiry. I submit that the Minister was not concerned about the cost and the delay but about matters relating to the EC investigation, that he did not want the EC investigation to be referred to in the report. The Minister did not want any reference to be made to the financial undertaking by the Government to a limit of £108 million in respect of the privatisation. Because of the various questions they had to answer and the way the Minister was directing the inquiry the inspectors began to log and date the times of all the calls. The pressure became so severe that one of the inspectors went to the Attorney General and complained that the inspectors were being contacted by Deputy O'Malley.

In addition Inspector Foley contacted Deputy Albert Reynolds in December 1991 to inform him about what was taking place and to ask him to contact Deputy O'Malley with a view to getting him to withdraw the pressure he was exerting on the inspectors. In view of the conflicting reports by Mr. Curran, and by the inspectors under section 8 of the Companies Act, does the Minister consider that he should now refuse to pay Mr. Curran, or demand the money back? Which report does the Minister believe and which report will he be acting on? Can the Minister justify how a State owned company went out of their way to evade taxation by changing their share structure when ordinary people are being prosecuted for tax evasion?

This whole episode in respect of the privatistion of Greencore arose because of a breach of confidentiality in the Law Library to a member of the Progressive Democrats. The Progressive Democrats sought to destabilise the Government on every possible occasion in September and October 1991. They fed information to the inquiry in order to embarrass the Government and tried to precipitate a general election. Everybody in the Progressive Democrats except Deputy O'Malley at that time wanted a general election. The leaking of the second interim report to a former candidate of the Progressive Democrats, through The Irish Press and the further leaking of information through the Law Library to privileged people who are members of the Progressive Democrats, certainly brings it home that this was a contrived effort by the Progressive Democrats to embarrass the Government of the day. It was an effort that failed. It was a costly exercise for the Irish taxpayer. I hope the lessons we can learn from this will be substantial having regard to semi-State companies and public services generally in the years ahead.

The distasteful matter under discussion is so repugnant to all the normal values held by our citizens that one is at a loss to know where to begin. In essence, we are dealing with a situation where a body of men appointed by the State charged to exercise their talents on behalf of the State, used the opportunity to indulge in an exercise of deceit and corruption, to feed their own greed and selfishness. That, to say the least of it, is extraordinarily disappointing.

In passing, I should say, not because the occupant of the Chair is a woman, that it is extraordinary that in all these machinations, in all this roguery, deceit and corruption, there is no evidence that any woman was involved. If a woman had been next or near what was going on we might have been protected from such an appalling scandal.

We should be careful not to be distracted from the essence of what we are discussing. The men in question, in whom such trust and confidence was placed and who, it was presumed, because of their salaries, would be fully employed in the pursuit of the interests of the State, abused and used their positions for their own advantage in a way that was harmful and prejudicial to the purpose they were presumed to serve.

As I read of this unfortunate and awful saga, I was struck by the number of times these gentlemen met in all the best hotels, the International, the Moyclare and so on, not to pursue the interests of the people they were deemed to serve, but to pursue their own despicable interests and their abuse of position. Secondary or subsidiary considerations should not divert us from castigating that episode. Earlier, a speaker, in the excesses of his charity, said that he thought it was an unfortunate finding of the report that Mr. Comerford should be regarded as being unfit for the directorship of any public company. As one who would have the same feelings of sympathy for anybody who might be in trouble, I would like to share that feeling, but, in all honesty, I cannot do so.

If I have evidence that somebody has abused their position for personal gain, how can I not agree with the statement that he is unfit for any future position of trust or confidence? Let us take some simple examples: let us suppose that a beet supplier was discovered to be supplying turnips instead of beet to Siúicre Éireann, would Mr. Comerford continue to accept supplies from him? If an employee had been discovered stealing a bag of sugar, worth a couple of pounds, would Mr. Comerford or indeed any of the other directors regard that person as fit for their job? They would not. I do not feel that I am required as a politician to do anything other than to serve the people by articulating what I believe and what I can justify to be true rather than articulating what is trendy and fashionable and in keeping with not letting the side down. I do not feel any urge to satisfy an esprit de corps by justifying what these people in co-operation with their financial advisers — to whom Deputy Lenihan has so eloquently referred — indulged in, defrauding the people of millions of pounds. We must examine whether those people, whom we trusted, acted in the best interests of the people and of this House. There is a prima facie case that they did not and as far as I am concerned they should be obliged to pay the appropriate penalty. Whether that means they should never enjoy such a position in the future does not concern me, but it is regrettable that anybody would appear to defend the situation.

I am not entirely in agreement with Deputy Dick Spring's opinion on the recent inquiry costing £1.1 million. Initially it was evident to the average person — I am as happy to accept their judgment on what is right and proper rather than accept technicalities and legalities whose purpose is to cloak the matter in doubt so that it may appear that perhaps things were not what they seemed and perhaps there was an innocent abroad. I like to see things as they are. I could accept a person's innocence if I could see any justification for it but where it is as plain as a pikestaff that Mr. Comerford and other directors of that company indulged in an exercise ab initio to deprive the Irish people of their entitlement and by a smart-alecky three-card-trick-type operation benefited considerably, one must reject it wholeheartedly and without qualification.

The report, Deputy Spring said, was worth the money but it only confirmed what everybody knew, that there was a scam. I do not see why I as a representative of the taxpayer, who ultimately pays for everything, should be obliged to give my agreement to something I was not consulted about, that is that a person was entitled to a payment of £1,750 per day, apart from additional considerations in respect of the use of their own offices and staff. The gentlemen were each paid £1,750 per day, and apparently were so busy and so concerned about discharging their duties as they saw it, that they felt obliged to work on Saturdays and Sundays as well. Presumably the sabbath does not mean to them what it means to the general public.

If they felt so committed obviously they would reject an inquiry made on behalf of the Government or Department on the need for an expeditious report. I note in the report that one of the gentlemen said that as far as they were concerned they were going to take their time and nobody would push them. As a lady in different circumstances said: "They would, wouldn't they". This has been legitimised — and here one can be critical of the Department and the Office of the Attorney General who accepted this — and if they were benefiting to the extent of £1,750 per day, of course, they would resent any interference which might deprive them of such remuneration. In saying that I am not taking away from their sincerity and concern to discover absolutely and positively every matter connected with this affair, but, as I said, everyone knew it was a scam, that £8 million had gone astray, to put it euphemistically. There was no misunderstanding about the destination, we all knew where it went. Are we now accepting that other, ancillary considerations — whether somebody made a phone call to a, b, c or d — should divert us from the raison d'etre of what we are discussing, whether people in a semi-State body are entitled to defraud the State through their own machinations or through advice available to them from accountants and the legal profession on the establishment of offshore companies? As I see it, these offshore companies were used as a devious means by which they could conceal their wrongdoing. This issue stretches beyond the actual amount of money involved. There is the perception of the people we represent. There are unfortunate people in my constituency who are obliged to live on £100 to £120 per week. The people who place trust in me and other Deputies expect us to look after their interests. How can they be satisfied with a situation whereby if they misappropriate even one penny or two, they are chased for it. It goes beyond that. The history of the world tells us that in one way or another excesses of this kind have led to a situation where the general public are cynical, belligerent and anxious to prevent a recurrence. In that regard I can see the Members of this House, Governments and Departments suffering, unless we demonstrate without qualification that scandals of this kind will be brought to an end. Perhaps we may accept a certain culpability, although I do not. There was no way I could check up on any of these gentlemen. The sooner the better the investigations into other scandals are brought to an end also, without their costing many more millions. Unless this is done we are failing the people who have put trust in us. It is not our fault that the people in whom we have placed trust have let us down. We cannot legislate for trustworthiness or honesty but let us be careful in the future that what has happened before will not happen again.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Garland.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

This debate will be wasted if, on the one hand, the perpetrators of this financial scandal are not brought to justice and if, on the other hand, this House cannot assure the general public and the taxpayers that this can never happen again. I have some doubts on both these counts but if the millions that have been spent on producing this report mean we can look forward to business being carried out in a highly moral fashion in the future it may be worth it. I do not believe that the money which has been spent cannot be recovered through appropriate action taken by the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Garda and so on against these people who have been defrauding the State of so much money. The matter should be pursued on the basis of the findings in the report, so that justice can be seen to be done and the huge monetary outlay can be returned to the State.

I am a member of Wicklow County Council and we have to regulate rents and service charges affecting the poorest people in the community. Every year about this time those who have not paid receive a very long computerised document which has a summons on the end requiring them to attend court for failure to pay. Some people go to credit unions or friends for assistance but others who cannot comply can be put out of their homes. It rarely happens but it is a possibility. These people see the wealthiest in our community making huge sums of money. Most of them make it honestly and pay their taxes but others appear to be able to make money illegally and to get out of paying taxes. The prevailing opinion is that the law catches the small people while the big guys can get away because they have influence and access to expertise and professional advice on how to circumvent various legislative provisions. I hope the 1990 Companies Act has plugged many of the weaknesses in the law and will prevent the recurrence of various illegal activities which happened over the years. I say this with some doubt because that Act is very complex and the legal and financial experts seem to find ways of getting around any legislation. Our job is to do what we can to see that at least the activities of semi-State bodies and companies are carried out in a proper fashion.

To that extent I agree with the chairman of the Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies that the control procedures we can exercise over these companies are not sufficient. This House has not the power to apply the control procedures which should be in place. The experience of that committee in respect of the Irish Sugar Company and other public companies, and also in 1984 with Irish Shipping, has shown that the committee's terms of reference do not allow for any real investigation into how these companies operate. The terms of reference simply state that the committee may examine the report and accounts and the overall operational methods of a semi-State body. The committee also has power to send for persons, papers and records and, subject to the approval of the Minister for Finance, to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist in any inquiry. Those terms of reference are totally inadequate to deal with the types of problems we have seen. The chairman, Deputy Roche, has indicated that the committee are virtually powerless. The Dáil has taken very little note of reports produced by the committee. I hope Friday sittings will allow us to bring these reports before the House, however inadequate they may be, given the terms of reference on which they are based. Every Member should have an opportunity to look at the companies investigated.

I hope the forthcoming report will be adopted because we need to remove the deficiencies in the terms of reference and beef up the committee's powers. Since 1979 the committee has been snubbed by many of the chairmen, directors and chief executives of companies, who simply make an excuse for not turning up when invited to attend or prevent people who should be there from attending, as happened when we tried to investigate the Irish Sugar Company. We have failed to secure papers and documents which we felt to be necessary to our investigations. We have also had a problem in securing the attendance of Ministers; they have all refused to attend. If this House, and the Seanad, are to be involved in a closer scrutiny of public companies, I hope the terms of reference of the committee will be widened to include the power to subpoena witnesses.

I thank Deputy Kavanagh for allowing me some of his time. On behalf of the Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, I compliment the two inspectors who have produced a very thorough report into this sleazy affair. Certainly, a number of questions need to be asked following the publication of this report. First, grave public disquiet has been expressed regarding the use of Jersey companies as vehicles for blatant tax avoidance. There is a serious loophole in our tax law which needs to be remedied immediately. It is essential that the appropriate legislation be introduced through the Finance Bill, 1992. Indeed, it should be feasible to prohibit entirely the holding of shares by Irish citizens in offshore companies unless they are genuine bona fide trading companies. The manner in which many wealthy people are ripping off this country when juxtaposed with social welfare witch-hunting, the latest example of which was exposed in west Cork recently, demonstrates all too clearly that there is one law for the rich and one for the poor; tax avoidance is acceptable, breach of social welfare regulations is not.

Some of the transactions exposed by this report go far beyond tax avoidance and clearly involve tax evasion and, like other Members, I hope the Director of Public Prosecutions will feel that sufficient evidence of wrongdoing has been established to enable prosecutions to be brought against the perpetrators of this fraud on the public. It is frightening to think that the public interest in Siúicre Éireann, on whom tremendous reliance has been placed by farmers, employees and consumers, has been headed by a person who on the inspectors word is not a fit person to be a director of any company in the State, never mind a large public company. This is surely the most damning indictment possible of anyone in the business world.

One has to wonder also about other State companies and whether this could happen again. We must look beyond the Greencore affair to this broader perspective. Certainly, the Government should, as a matter of urgency, consider whether supervision of semi-State companies by them, or by the Oireachtas, is sufficiently strong. The semi-State bodies seem to be a law unto themselves and amenable to very little control by the Government. In particular, I get the impression that the Minister for Energy, Deputy Molloy, has very little control over the policy of the ESB. In fact, as the Minister admitted in the notorious Inishvickillane wind generator case, not only did the ESB not consult him before making a decision but failed to inform him afterwards.

I do not wish to impute any dishonesty on the part of the directors of the ESB, but an organisation so vital to the wellbeing of this country should be much more amenable to public control and accountability. Perhaps the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General should be extended to this area.

Sometimes it is extremely difficult to find out what the ESB or, indeed, other semi-State companies, are actually involved in. I have tabled a number of parliamentary questions seeking detailed information on certain activities of semi-State companies but these have always been ruled out of order because, as I have been told, "the Minister has no responsibiity to the Dáil in this matter".

Apart from this gigantic rip-off of the Irish taxpayers, many people are questioning the desirability of privatising Greencore in view of their monopoly. They are in an unique position to rip off the Irish farmers and the consumers. Greencore are in a classic monopoly situation where they can pay the lowest price to farmers and charge the highest price to the consumer. Any industry in this position must be retained within the control of the State or the community.

Finally, I wish to express my revulsion at the enormous fees charged by the inspectors. Certainly, these people are entitled to a reasonable fee for a job well done but they are not entitled to the level of fees they charged in this case. In future steps should be taken to ensure that the costs of inquiries are controlled in some way.

Last September the Greencore scandal hit the headlines. Great indignation was felt throughout the country as each day brought a new revelation. It was regrettable for a number of reasons especially when one considers the way the company were transformed in a very short time from a heavy loss maker to a highly profitable operation. Unfortunately, that miracle was quickly forgotten.

The fact that Siúicre Éireann were the first semi-State company to be privatised makes this episode all the more regrettable. Great care was taken in this transition and it is very embarrassing for all of us to learn of the corruption that took place. On 16 September 1991 the High Court appointed Ciaran Foley and Aidan Barry as inspectors to investigate the affairs of Siúicre Éireann. Two days later they were asked by the High Court to investigate an additional 33 companies which were associated with Siúicre Éireann.

On Tuesday, 3 March 1992 the final report on Siúicre Éireann and related companies was made public and it is fitting that the House have an opportunity to debate that report. This report is one of the most amazing documents ever to come before the Dáil. It is a devastating indictment of the way business was conducted in one of our major semi-State companies before privatisation — a catalogue of low standards in high places, a financial scandal of major proportions. It has all the ingredients of a great plot for a Jeffrey Archer thriller that could be called "Poor man, Rich man" but for the fact that we are dealing with real life and not with the creative workings of a fiction writer's mind.

The former managing director of Greencore, Mr. Chris Comerford, is on the receiving end of most of the criticism, the villian of the plot. The inspectors say he is largely to blame for almost everything. We are told that Mr. Comerford was given, and corruptly accepted, moneys which may constitute the taking of bribes, to remain in his job of managing director of the Irish Sugar Company. We are told he deceived the board and chairman, Mr. Bernie Cahill, for almost two years until the company was privatised; that he received secret profits and was in breach of his duties of trust as a director of the company; that he was party to backdating statutory records of Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Ltd. and may have committed a criminal offence, forgery. We are told that the price paid by Irish Sugar in completing the takeover of their subsidiary Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Ltd. was inflated by the inclusion of inappropriate claims, and so the potential profit from the deal may have been closer to £10 million than the already exorbitant £8 million, previously believed.

The more I read this report the more I wonder what the board of the sugar company were doing when all of these nefarious activities were taking place. The inspectors have pointed to at least eight ways in which, in their views, the board of the Sugar Company were either misinformed or not fully informed. They are not blamed for allowing this situation to develop. Indeed, one could say that the board and their chairman emerge relatively unscathed from this report. The major criticisms are reserved for executives and advisers who are no longer employed by the Greencore group and these will all have to be answered in due course.

I take a somewhat different line from the conclusions drawn by the inspectors on the basis of their analysis. Either the board were aware of at least some of the things that were taking place and should have been fired or, alternatively, were completely unaware of what was happening and, hence were incompetent custodians of their sharebholders' funds and should have been fired.

For the past few years successive Governments have tried to ensure that semi-State companies are given the latitude they need to carry out their functions successfully. We all agree that it would be intolerable for the board of any commercial semi-State company to be restricted from commonsense decision making by a Minister or a Department. However, semi-State boards have the same obligation to ensure that they abide by the law and exercise proper care and diligence as would the board and management of any other company.

It is my contention that the inspectors who compiled the report were very selective in deciding where the buck stops. It is management's job to manage and it is the function of the board to ensure that the right management are in place and that the organisation are being properly managed. In this case the inspectors accept that Mr. Comerford exercised more control in running the Sugar Company than any other group within the company. Yet, strangely, they do not suggest that the board were at fault for allowing this situation to develop.

According to the report a number of non-executive directors of the Sugar Company complained to the inspectors about the "quality and timeliness" of the information given to them. The report also states that according to Mr. Comerford and the chairman, Mr. Cahill, the board were often given limited information in advance of meetings "because of the confidentiality of some of the information, particularly when possible acquisitions were being considered". Two former non-executive directors, Mr. James Wallace and Dr. Laurence O'Connor, when interviewed by the inspectors, described the decision-making process within the company as presenting the board with a “fait accompli”.

This is not the way to run a business and the lax way in which the board of the Sugar Company approached their activities can only do untold damage to Ireland's corporate image. Who could blame anyone for being dismayed at the apparent ease with which people in this country can shelter millions of pounds in profits in offshore companies out of sight and out of reach of the Revenue Commissioners, even when these profits are being paid over by a semi-State company to the benefit of semi-State executives?

We have been told that Mr. Comerford's style of management, his way of making recommendations and pressing for urgent decisions, did not allow for detailed discussion and comprehensive analysis at Sugar Company board meetings. Who was at fault in allowing this situation to develop? I strongly contend that Mr. Cahill should have insisted on a more rigorous examination of the recommendations of management than appears to have been the case. Had he done so it is difficult to see how things could have gone so wrong. We should seriously consider his position even at this late stage. As for the allegations against Mr. Comerford and the other executives, these will be dealt with in another forum.

The claims made against the former managing director, involving bribery, forgery and corruption, are the most serious charges ever levelled at any Irish State company executive. I welcome the new guidelines for directors and executives of semi-State bodies announced by the Minister for Finance this week. I hope these will ensure that this House will never have to deal with a scandal of this magnitude again.

The smell of greed permeates the 260 to 270 pages of the report. Indeed, the scandal may never have come to light in the first place if a number of one-time friends who set out to make a killing, despite the fact that they were in positions of public trust, did not fall out among themselves. The very least that we should do is ensure that no financial benefit accrues to anyone who is alleged to have been involved in what amounted to an attempted rip-off of the taxpayer.

Neither does it seem right and just that the taxpayer, the innocent victim in this whole affair, should now be asked to pick up the outrageous tab for the inspectors' investigation. It is a public scandal that the two inspectors have been allowed to charge £500,000 and as much again for their back-up teams. The inspectors were appointed to investigate a saga of greed. By charging fees of £1,750 per day they became an integral part of the culture of greed.

Since the report was made public many people have expressed their disgust at the unbelievable cost of this investigation. It is easy to understand the reason the public are outraged at the fees charged by the inspectors, at a time when so many people find themselves on the dole queues. Indeed, a great number of those who are employed are finding it very difficult to survive and are living from day to day. The task of trying to find the cost of housing, to feed and educate a family is proving to be a major challenge. It is incomprehensible therefore that the two people concerned should have the audacity to ask for such an exorbitant fee.

I call on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to guarantee the taxpayers that they will not have to pay one penny towards the cost of this investigation. I hope also that the Minister will have learned a few lessons. We are all aware of the accusations which have been levelled at him during the past few weeks regarding his alleged interference with the investigation, but in fairness to him, he came into the House to give a full account of his actions when he left us in no doubt as to his concern at the length and cost of the investigation.

I have to ask, however, why a fee was not agreed before the investigation got under way. Surely, it would have been far more sensible to set aside a budget and lay down a time limit? If an ordinary person asks a tradesman to carry out a job at his or her house, such as painting, they will agree on a price before the job is started. We in Dáil Éireann are supposed to be providing leadership, yet this situation has been allowed to develop. The Government must ensure that there is no lotto winner on this occasion.

A number of other Deputies have also expressed their disgust and anger at the fees charged. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will note the feelings of not just the Members of this House but the public at large and that the necessary action will be taken.

As I have said already, it is fitting that we should discuss this report in the House. Let me conclude by saying that I hope we can ensure that the culprits responsible will pay for their wrongdoing and that every step is taken to prevent a repeat in the future.

It is right and proper that the House should have the opportunity for debate in the matter of the report on Greencore, a report which I can only describe as strange and disturbing. It is strange because it has failed to answer many of the questions posed initially, questions which the investigation was set up to answer. Indeed, it is fair to say that the report probably poses more problems than it solves; an incredible achievement considering that it has cost the Exchequer and the taxpayer £1.2 million.

The report is disturbing because of what appears to be an obvious bias or prejudice on the part of the inspectors which manifests itself in the conclusions drawn by them from their investigations. It is disturbing, too, in so far as clear and unequivocal allegations are made against named individuals in the report without there being any substantive evidence presented to uphold those allegations. While accepting that the inspectors have delved very deeply into the affairs of all of the component parts of the companies involved in Siúicre Éireann cpt., and that they have thoroughly familiarised themselves with the incidents and events which gave rise to the investigation in the first place, nonetheless it is a matter of grave concern to view the overall balance of the report as being flawed and biased and it certainly does nothing to dispel the public perception that there was ministerial encouragement as to the direction the report should take.

I should preface my remarks by saying, quite categorically, that I am not an apologist for Mr. Chris Comerford nor for anybody else involved in what has become known as the Greencore affair. Mr. Comerford was in a position of authority and trust, but it is obvious that the trust was violated and the authority abused. Culpability has been established and it is not my intention or my wish to refute that or to imply otherwise. However, to believe that one man was responsible for all that happened, to believe that the alleged offences were perpetrated under the noses of the various boards of management without their knowledge or at least tacit consent, to believe that the company chairman was totally unaware of any wrongdoing, is to stretch our imaginations to the limits.

It is inconceivable that the sums of money involved in the various transactions between Greencore, Siúicre Éireann, Gladebrook, Talmino, Sugar Distributors and others, could be processed through the various accounts without serious questions being raised somewhere along the line. Most dangerous of all, if all these illicit transactions took place as alleged, and which the report seems to confirm, without the knowledge or consent of the board of directors, then one has to question the competence of the people who sit on that board, one has to question their right to be there and their ability to do the job for which they were appointed.

One of the most damning indictments in the report is item number 24 in the inspectors' conclusions which states: "we are of the opinion that Mr. Comerford is an unfit person to be a director of a company in the State". The merits, or demerits, of that statement can be argued, but what worries me is that no reference whatsoever is made to the fitness or otherwise of the persons appointed to oversee and approve the work of Mr. Comerford and his staff. Why is their competence left unchallenged and why does the report give the impression that the lack of perception by the board of directors of Greencore, and their inability to acquaint themselves with the intricacies of company business has not been brought to question at all? In item number 9 in the report's conclusions the inspectors state: "had the board of Siúicre Éireann been made aware of the true structure of the MBO, we believe approval may not have been given for that transaction", which was the payment of dividends to those selling Sugar Distributors shareholdings. That statement is totally nebulous and not alone calls the competence of the board into question but makes one wonder at the inspectors' reasons for making such a woolly statement in the first place. This particular conclusion is typical of many in the report which give rise to the overall lack of balance and impartiality and which do nothing to dispel the nagging doubts which persist about the guidelines on which the report is framed.

We must look also at the very first item in the inspectors conclusions in which they state that they are driven to the conclusion that neither Mr. Comerford nor any of his family ever had a legal or beneficial interest in the ownership of Talmino. To the neutral observer, this conclusion seems totally at odds with everything that happened. If he did not have a legal or beneficial interest in the ownership of Talmino, why then did the alleged transactions in which Talmino stood to profit by millions of pounds take place at all? What interest would Mr. Comerford have had in ensuring a monetary bonanza for a company in which he held not one single share? I repeat at this point that I do not seek to defend any individual in this case, indeed, as I will explain later, I come from a constituency in which it would be politically advantageous to do the exact opposite, to wield the verbal hatchet on everybody involved in this scandalous situation. But that is not my purpose here today; a wrong has been committed and blame has been apportioned but without having been proven to universal satisfaction. Therein lies the nub of the whole affair. The sacrificial lamb has been laid on the altar while those who helped to put him there stand by in muted silence. I repeat my earlier claim that the taint of guilt must run wider and deeper than this report would suggest and the sooner the blame for what has happened is apportioned fully and properly, the better for all concerned.

Let me give another example of what I am talking about. The inspectors state under item number 3 in their conclusions:

Mr. Comerford was given and corruptly accepted monies. The purpose for making the payments was to circumvent Public Policy and may constitute the taking of bribes in consideration for remaining in his employment at Siúicre Éireann.

The important point here, and I cannot emphasise it enough, is that in order to take a bribe, one has to be offered a bribe, and the person who offers the bribe is as guilty as the one who accepts it. In this particular instance, the offering of an inducement to a managing director to remain in his job despite being head-hunted by another company is understandable. We are all human. The acceptance of such an inducement is also understandable, even if it contravenes a company policy. But the point is, and it seems to have been lost on the inspectors, that those who offered the inducement to the managing director were every bit as guilty in offering it as he was in accepting it, yet the inspectors see fit to ignore that fact in their report.

I have highlighted some of the items in the report merely to serve as an illustration of what I see to be an imbalance in the report. A terrible wrong has been done to the Sugar Company and it is a matter of national importance that all the questions that have been raised are answered fully and comprehensively. We do not need blood for blood's sake, but every single person who had any hand, act or part in what happened in Siúicre Éireann and in Greencore must be held fully accountable to the courts of law.

If anyone doubts the importance of the need to investigate the whole problem as fully as possible, then I can only point to the price now being paid by the largest town in my constituency as a result of decisions taken by the Irish Sugar Company. The closure of the sugar factory in Thurles has been well documented and I have spoken about it in this House on a number of occasions. There are very few people in Thurles who do not feel bitter about the whole sorry episode in the light of what has now happened. Hundreds of families were deprived of a substantial income, support services were obliterated and the area generally took a blow to the economic solar plexus from which it may never recover. All of that took place under the aegis of the board of directors which now stands mute while the chief executive, who carried out the instructions given to him by the board, stands indicted alone. We heard the Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture of the time, Deputy O'Kennedy, tell us of what he hoped to achieve through reconstituted boards of directors and in February 1987, he even told us that Thurles Sugar Factory was an enterprise where the Government would develop new byproducts and achieve maximum employment. How hollow those words sound now as the factory closed less than two years later, largely at the insistence of the self-same spokesman, the then Minister for Agriculture, who exhorted the Sugar Company to become financially viable. Mr. Comerford did what was requested of him by the Government. The work done in bringing the Sugar Company from insolvency into profit was what was demanded of him by Government and his zeal in applying himself to his task may well be what has now brought him into deep water. Thurles Sugar Factory was closed by the board and by the Government of the day and the finger was not pointed at one single individual. We must be extremely careful about not doing so now. Blame must be apportioned fairly and squarely where it lies.

There is another item in the report which disturbs me. The inspectors state, as a matter of opinion, that Mr. Comerford is an unfit person to be a director of a company in the State. On what terms of reference did they form that opinion? Have the inspectors examined a number of other companies using criteria by which they can assess directors' competence? In similar vein, the inspectors appear to know what the board of the Sugar Company would have done in certain circumstances and yet they display a marked reluctance to attach any blame to that same board in situations where they do not need to speculate on what the board might or might not have done, but can work on facts instead. There is, for example, the conflict of evidence in regard to the appointment of NCB as advisers to the company prior to the flotation of Greencore. The chairman of the board, Mr. Cahill, told a meeting on October 30 last that he discussed a list of possible advisers with then Taoiseach in the course of a visit to Mr. Haughey at his home and yet the inspectors report him as claiming that NCB had already been appointed before that meeting. That is a most serious conflict of evidence which must be clarified. Who was right and who was wrong in this instance? There is not a whisper in the report that Mr. Cahill or his board contributed, either by act or omission, to anything that happened. I find that difficult to understand.

Since the inspectors took it on themselves to determine the criteria for suitability of a person to be a director of a company, perhaps they could now extend their brief to lay down criteria for the suitability of political appointees to the boards of State companies, since it would appear that the "who you know" syndrome is much more important than what you know. The suitability of any candidate for a position on the board of a State company must be the subject of a critical examination and it should be a matter of urgency that this whole area is reviewed. Whatever happened in Greencore and whoever or how many were involved or implicated in the wrongdoing, the point is it all happened under the gaze of those appointed to watch over the system. To lay the blame on the doorstep of one individual is to avert our eyes and our attention from the reality of this situation; it is too pat a solution to a problem that must never again be allowed happen.

This report has raised many more questions than the few it has answered and I hope the Ministers for Agriculture and Food, Finance and Industry and Commerce will ensure that there is a logical progression towards a solution of the problems thrown up by what has happened.

Having listened to the debate since its commencement this morning I have to say that the contributions by Members on all sides have been sincere, productive and entirely genuine. They seem to contain more desirable objectives than earlier debates. Today's debate is in stark contrast to the debates on this and other alleged scandals which took place over the past number of months. The exchanges engaged in by some Members during those debates could only be described as nauseating. It was obvious that some Members contributed to those debates merely to be politically vindictive and not for any meritorious reason.

These scandals can only be described as abominable. Irish people were shell-shocked by this and other business scandals. This sorry episode received much international media coverage, some of which was out of all proportion and was taken out of perspective. Nevertheless, damage was done. The level of the damage done to the image and credibility of our country is as yet unknown and unquantified. In the context of the Single European Market in which we hope to do business in the decades ahead, we do not need the kind of bad image or lack of credibility this type of adverse publicity can create. These issues have affected the morale of the business community generally, particularly those who are endeavouring to carry out their businesses and responsibilities in a proper upright way. Indeed, these issues have affected the lives of people, including politicians, who are completely innocent of any untoward behaviour.

Our State sector has had an honourable tradition. The Irish Sugar Company have also had an honourable tradition. The year I sat my intermediate certificate examination — this was not today or yesterday — students were asked to list the location of the Irish sugar factories. Even at the tender age of 14 or 15 years, I had no difficulty in recalling that their factories were located at Mallow, Thurles, Tuam and Carlow. I also knew at that time that the Irish Sugar company were a major industry.

Over the years our State companies have been run by excellent and honourable people of the highest integrity. I am referring to people like David Kennedy, Dan Herlihy, Jack Hynes and Maurice Sheehy. The late Maurice Sheehy who was chief executive of the Sugar Company, was a dear and personal friend of mine. He personified the qualities of patriotism and integrity in the strictest sense of those words. I am sure Maurice Sheehy would turn in his grave at the sordid events which have taken place in the company of which he was so proud and into which he put such great effort.

I spent most of my working life in the semi-State sector at senior management level. While I was proud to count among my many managerial colleagues people of unquestionable integrity, people who were totally committed and dedicated to their work and to ensuring that the company prospered and jobs were sustained, I recall that there was very little accountability in the real sense of that word during those years. This has to change. While no untoward activities were evident at that time, on occasions top management and chief executives in State bodies would shoot first and ask questions afterwards. On occasion they invested taxpayers money and only sought authorisation for it at a later date. This is why I believe accountability and control of State companies is paramount and must be a factor in the future.

I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. This committee act as a watchdog over the activities of commercial bodies in which the State has an involvement. Unfortunately — I am on record as stating this — this watchdog committee have no teeth, power, muscle or authority to do anything of real merit. They have no real authority or power to call in the relevant people or ask them to give an account of their stewardship.

I was very pleased and honoured to be appointed to the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. Because of my background in the semi-State sector I felt I would have something to contribute to this committee, but I experienced a rude awakening. It is no reflection on my colleagues, who are as frustrated as I am at our inability to deal with the job entrusted to us, that the committee are merely a talking shop. Something must be done about this. Adequate resources are not made available to the committee to ensure that the members carry out their role in an efficient and constructive manner. The taxpayers are entitled to be assured that hard earned money is well spent and particularly that it is not disposed of in an untoward or questionable manner.

I appeal, as I have done in the past, that the committee be given the resources and the authority necessary to enable them to carry out their function as was intended. The need for some form of control is obvious considering all the events that arose since last summer. The committee should have authority to call in people to report to them. That should be part of the overall structure of accountability. On a number of occasions Government Ministers have been requested to attend the committee to assist us in our duties. However, while we receive courteous replies with good reasons for the non-attendance of Ministers, our requests are invariably turned down.

I would like to refer to the cost of this report. The report was initiated to investigate a scandal. However, the cost of the report to the Irish taxpayer is itself a scandal. When one considers the unemployment level and the low income of our small farmers, it is a scandal that the investigators in this case earned as much in half an hour as would many people in a whole week.

Much reference has been made to political interference in this and other issues since July last. What is political interference and when is it justified? When is it proper and above board and when is it totally necessary? It appears that politicians, particularly senior politicians by so-called interference, are taking their political lives in their hands and are putting at risk their integrity and their good names and, in some instances, the best interests of their families. In the past few days, Members from all sides of this House screamed for political interference in an issue of great concern. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Bertie Ahern, and the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Joe Walsh, put great effort into resolving that issue. I wonder whether they will be subsequently accused of political interference.

Never again should such expenditure be incurred in investigations of this kind. Arrangements must be made as to cost and duration of an investigation before it is undertaken. The Irish people must be assured that structures are in place to ensure that there will be no repetition of this kind of untoward activity. It is vital that our credibility be maintained particularly for our export markets. Considering our geographic position on the periphery of Europe, it is difficult enough to compete in the European market without having a question mark over our credibility also. Proper controls must be put in place to ensure accountability. If the Irish taxpayer is assured that the structures are in situ to ensure that there will be no repetition of untoward practices, perhaps some good will have been gleaned from the sordid events that have been hitting the headlines since last summer.

I am glad to be afforded the opportunity of contributing to this debate. The debate should not be an exercise in Deputies expressing their views on who did what in the Irish Sugar Company and their subsidiaries prior to that company being renamed Greencore, prior to flotation on the Stock Exchange. What Deputies and Senators say in this House is governed by absolute privilege in that no case shall lie against Members in connection with proceedings in the Oireachtas. In recent years the self-discipline which should exist alongside this privilege has not been exercised by some Members. The proceedings of this House should not be used as a publicity device through abuse of the privileges of the House by making statements and comments on people and events when the Member in question would not repeat those comments outside of this House.

We should, as a body of public representatives, remember the privileged position we are in before casting the first stone of accusation at people and events. It is particularly serious when Members of the Oireachtas attack other arms of the State, as witnessed by the appalling comments of Senator Lydon in Wednesday's debate, which subsequently, under pressure, he withdrew. However, while the remarks were withdrawn, they have been widely circulated throughout the media. The attack on the Supreme Court on that occasion is to be deplored. Finger pointing is a practice which we as Members should seek to eradicate from the proceedings of this House. It is for this reason that I will concentrate on the lessons to be drawn from what has become known as the Greencore affair, although almost all the events investigated took place prior to the name, Greencore, being adopted, that is when this company was 100 per cent owned by the State.

The first lesson to be drawn relates to the relationship that exists between the Government, State-owned companies and their subsidiaries. Contrary to what members of the House from the Labour Party, New Agenda and the Green Party would like to portray to the public, the events investigated in the report occurred within a 100 per cent State-owned company. Hence, this report cannot and should not be put forward as an argument against the State extricating itself from the activities and concerns that should at this stage of our economic development more properly lie in the private sector. In fact, I believe that the lessons to be learnt from this affair point to an argument for privatisation, as they show that the State is not properly placed to be able to oversee separate companies under its ownership.

The Irish Sugar Company, a State-owned company with various subsidiary companies, engaged mainly in the manufacture and distribution of sugar. The board of directors of the Sugar Company, Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, were part-time and paid a nominal stipend to attend meetings and oversee the affairs of the company. The payment for the tasks involved in being a director of a State-owned company bears no relationship to the work, duties and responsibilities one would expect of a non-executive director. As a result, management are in a stronger position relative to the board than would be the case in a private sector company, although in such a company a non-executive director is at the mercy of the information and reports prepared by his executives and the management.

The Sugar Company had many subsidiaries and, in most instances, it appears the directors of those subsidiaries, who represented the interests of the Sugar Company, were drawn from the executive of the Sugar Company. They were not independent, non-executive directors. I realise that given the directors' fees paid to directors of State-owned companies one could not expect them also to serve on subsidiary companies. Nevertheless, there is an argument for non-executive directors to be on the board of a subsidiary company, and if the low level of fees is a problem then that is what should be addressed.

Because of the nature of the relationship with the Government Department to which the State-owned company reports, I also believe that the performance of the companies is adversely affected by the delays and impediments to decision-making within the State bureaucracy. The speed and flexibility of response of a private sector company is often absent, frequently leading to lost opportunities. The delays in rationalising the Tuam and Thurles plants of the Sugar Company are examples of that. As Deputy Noonan said, Circular 1/83 from the Department of Finance should be made compulsory reading for all directors of State-owned companies and for every high executive.

I argue that a crucial outcome of the report is to show how ill-equipped the shareholder in a State-owned company, that is, the State, is to monitor the performance of that company, Hence the conclusion that the report is an argument for further State sell-offs of activities and assets and not an argument against privatisation.

In that context, however, I must draw attention to the damage caused to the prospects for further sell-offs by the State as a result of the action taken by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Bertie Ahern. The Grencore prospectus stated that the Minister would hold his shareholding in Greencore for two years unless there were exceptional circumstances. The Minister for Finance is guilty of a grave breach of trust in his recent sell-off of Greencore shares, contrary to the understanding given in the prospectus. In doing so, the Minister for Finance has done a disservice to what should be an essential policy of reducing State involvement in the economy.

I am aware that the action of the Minister in dumping a portion of the Greencore shares has affected the standing of the Irish Stock Exchange in the eyes of investors, particularly international investors. The excuse of the Minister for Finance that the money was needed to pay the Programme for Economic and Social Progress commitments hardly constitutes exceptional circumstances. The only exceptional element of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress is the manner in which it was negotiated and the extraordinary commitments on public service pay in which the Minister for Finance was involved. Having made disastrous commitments under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress on public sector pay — to which Fine Gael drew attention — the Minister for Finance has compounded the problem by damaging Ireland's reputation among investors through the disposal of Greencore shares. That was confirmed to me earlier this week on my visit to Brussels. Financial institutions there are concerned at the manner in which the Government, in their eyes, broke trust with the market. The reputation of this country abroad has been damaged seriously.

I now turn to the mechanisms used to investigate the Greencore group. The Minister applied to the High Court under section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990, and two inspectors were appointed by the court on 16 September 1991. On 18 September the remit of the inspectors was extended to other companies. An interim report was submitted by the inspectors on 7 October, followed by a second interim report on 11 November and the final report was submitted and published in February 1992. On 12 September 1991 the Minister appointed an inspector to investigate and report on persons who have been financially interested in the success or failure of certain named companies. The list of companies was extended to include Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann on 26 September 1991. An interim report was received from that inspector on 22 October 1991 and the final report was submitted before last Christmas.

The cost of the report of the inspectors approved under section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990, is about £1.1 million while the cost of the report of the inspector appointed under section 14 of the Companies Act, 1990, was £156,000, inclusive of VAT. What must be questioned is who negotiated the fees on behalf of the Government and why were the fees agreed on an open-ended basis? Surely anyone agreeing a fee of £1,750 per day would have agreed that up to a ceiling of a certain amount. To have left such an open-ended commitment is an act of negligence on the part of whichever Minister was responsible.

In an RTE radio interview on 17 December the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that responsibility for costs of court appointed inspectors belonged to the Minister for Justice. Section 13 of the Companies Act, 1990, states that. Was the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the former Minister for Justice responsible for agreeing the fees or paying the fees? If that was the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, as Deputy O'Malley said in his radio interview, why was Deputy O'Malley telephoning the inspectors with respect to the costs of the investigation? If, as the Minister said last week in the Dáil, the Government had agreed that responsibility for the investigations should rest with him, when was that decision taken? Did the Minister know about it when he drew attention on the radio to the responsibilities of the Minister for Justice in that area? If the Minister did not know that a Government decision affecting his area of responsibility had been taken, what does that tell us about the role the Progressive Democrats like us to believe they fulfil, as some kind of guardian angel within the Cabinet?

Last week's decision reversing an earlier Government decision regarding taxation of certain payments to farmers seems to have been taken, if one can judge from newspaper reports, without the knowledge of either the Minister for Industry and Commerce or his fellow Progressive Democrats Minister, Deputy Molloy. Is the Minister not concerned that decisions are being taken by the Government behind his back or that he has failed to ensure he is fully briefed on matters, especially those within his responsibility as Minister?

The reports were obtained at great cost. Did we get value for money? There are huge conflicts between the findings of the reports. The reports underline the fact that there are differences in evidence as to what went on within the Sugar Company and their subsidiaries. That is something we have known about since the article in the Sunday Independent on 1 September. I would pose the question as to whether we are now any wiser regarding what took place within the Irish Sugar Company. One comment on the report of the two court inspectors is relevant in the context of the point I was making earlier about privileged statements in this House. The inspectors were asked to investigate the affairs of certain companies. The definition of “investigate” in the dictionary is “to search or inquire into a matter systematically or in detail”; to “investigate” is “to establish the facts”.

Where the facts cannot be established the inspectors could offer an opinion on what they saw as being the most likely position. However, I do not think anyone envisaged inspectors making judgments on persons involved in companies under inspection. The self-discipline one expects of Members of the Oireachtas with regard to privilege should apply also to inspectors completing a report of their investigations for the court, in that the contents of the report, in effect constituting proceedings of the court, are privileged. That does not allow inspectors to make judgments on persons. In that respect I contend the Greencore report of the two inspectors, appointed under the provisions of section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990, oversteps the mark between investigation, or presentation of fact, and making a judgment when it states that a certain person — Mr. Comerford — is not a fit person to be a director of a company in this country. None of us present when the Companies Act, 1990 was being processed through this House, envisaged inspectors making judgments on persons while they, the inspectors themselves, were protected by the privilege of the court.

A further point to be made is that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, seemed to overstretch himself when he stated in this House, as reported in the Official Report, at column 1075 of 3 March 1992:

... the report has already been referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions and I hope he takes criminal proceedings at an early date in respect of these matters.

It is not appropriate for a Minister, or any Member of this House, to say he hopes the Director of Public Prosecutions will do a particular thing, or act in a particular manner.

I should like to reiterate my comments in regard to privilege in this House and the tendency of Members in recent years to go beyond what is acceptable in pursuing publicity by hounding people, many of whom are not represented here. Likewise I contend the privilege of an inspector's report should not be used to make judgments. Secondly, the lessons of the Greencore affair are that the State is not well placed to handle companies of the size of Greencore, with under-paid, non-executive directors serving on a main board and executive directors serving on subsidiary boards. Rather the direction in which we should move is toward further State disentanglement from activities in respect of which there is no economic argument to be advanced for their continuance.

Deputy Garland said here this morning that Greencore was such a massive company, being the producer, distributor and seller of one product, it had led to virtually a monopoly position. Of course, that is not correct. For example, under the free trade agreement, or Single Market, anybody will be quite free to import sugar in the future in any way.

I must remind the Deputy that his time has expired.

I will finish in one moment. The events to which the Greencore report refer relate to what occurred within the Sugar Company when it was a wholly State-owned company. Thirdly, the investigation mechanism and the costs of investigations do not work in a satisfactory manner. I contend that the Minister, or a former Cabinet colleague, compounded matters by negotiating open-ended fees with the inspectors. Conducting telephone conversations with an inspector on the costs involved was not an appropriate action for the Minister. Similarly expressing hopes regarding the Director of Public Prosecutions' view of the report was not an appropriate way for the Minister to behave, nor was the inclusion of judgmental remarks in the inspector's report.

All of these matters must be dealt with by the Minister in an urgent review of how the relevant legislation has worked. Consideration must be given to strengthening the Garda Fraud Squad so that investigations can be conducted by a team of experienced investigators at a reasonable cost.

Acting Chairman

I would remind the Deputy again that he has exceeded his time.

Confidence is crucial to the operations of the business community and essential for the proper functioning of the democratic process, since accountability forms a vital part of our political process.

It is surprising — and it would appear at this stage that it will not happen — that neither the Minister for Industry and Commerce not the former Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy O'Kennedy, will contribute to this debate. That is regrettable.

Mr. Rabbitte rose.

Acting Chairman

I call on Deputy Hillery.

With respect to Deputy Hillery, my party have not yet contributed to this debate. I have been here on several occasions today. For example, I was assured that I would be permitted to speak at 1.30 p.m. It is now 2.30 p.m. and, if I correctly interpret Deputy Barry, he tells me that Deputy Garland has spoken. How can that conceivably be the case?

Acting Chairman

I will endeavour to clarify the position for the Deputy. According to the information in front of me the next speaker should be a Government speaker; I have called Deputy Brian Hillery. The next speaker is listed as "other", so I assume that Deputy Rabbitte will be the next speaker after Deputy Hillery.

It has to be said straight away that some events that occurred in the recent past in both the public and private sectors have given us all cause to worry about standards in Irish business. In the case of the semi-State bodies the Government, parent Departments and indeed the Oireachtas, as a whole, have a particular responsibility.

Following the recent controversies the Government did take swift and decisive action though it must be said, in the case of Siúicre Éireann, both the time it took to complete the report and its cost have given rise to deep concern. The key task of this and other inquiries is to ensure that any illegalities or malpractices be uncovered and disclosed. Where wrongdoing occurs it has to be uprooted. That is the way to restore trust and confidence in the financial and business field here.

I want to turn now to the rather difficult, vexed, matter of control in semi-State bodies. I want to refer to a few aspects of this relationship and to advance what I hope will be some positive suggestions. First, I want to commend the then Minister for Finance, the present Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds, on the initiative he took last September in requesting a report from the Secretary of the Department of Finance on the principles governing the relationship between Departments of State and State bodies. I welcome the guidelines for State bodies issued earlier this week by the present Minister for Finance, Deputy Bertie Ahern. In particular I welcome the recommendation that all State bodies should have a written code of conduct for their board members so that, on appointment to a board of a State body, each such board appointee will be expected to furnish to the secretary of the body details relating to his employment and all other business interests, including shareholdings, professional relationships and so on. Clearly, this is a step in the right direction. Furthermore, it is recommended in those guidelines that all State bodies should have a written code of conduct for employees as well. This code should cover such matters as avoidance of conflict of interest, acceptance of gifts and honesty in dealings.

I want to spend a few moments on this issue of honesty. Here I should stress that none of us is a paragon of virtue. But, on the question of honesty, the law as it stands at present — I refer in particular to the Larceny Act, 1916 — is inadequate to deal with the many modern, white collar problems that arise in particular. In this context I want to make a further plea for new legislation to broaden the definition of crimes of dishonesty. I made this very same point last week when contributing to the Criminal Evidence Bill, 1992. I am glad to say that the new Minister for Justice, in the course of his contribution to the same debate, signalled that, when he receives the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission on the law relating to dishonesty, he and his Department will treat their implementation as a matter of priority.

The net point I want to make is that no element of the community should regard itself as one step ahead of the law. While acknowledging and condemning the recent controversies, I want to say straight away that the great majority of State-sponsored bodies have done a very good job in recent years, in very difficult trading conditions, both nationally and internationally. It should be remembered that these bodies are among the most significant of our employers, employing, overall, almost 1,000 people, mostly in the commercial bodies. By and large these companies have made a vital contribution to the life and economy of our country and we should not put them down. From my contacts over several years with representatives of these bodies, as a member of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies, I have confidence in the great majority of the management and workers in these enterprises. Let me emphasise that we should not tarnish either the State bodies or their employees because of any improprieties committed by a few of their number. Equally it is important to say that, in the private sector, the great majority of people who work there are honest and hardworking. There is no getting away from the fact that the scandals are and have been harmful. They damage the very fabric of our society and, in particular, effect our commercial credibility in the international marketplace.

On the matter of the balance to be struck between Departmental control and the day-to-day management of State enterprises it seems to me that a considerable measure of freedom in the management of State companies has been the practice and actually makes much commonsense. Clearly the level of independence enjoyed by a company must be consistent with the legislation and appropriate to the task in hand. Therefore, in practice, when taking individual commercial decisions, the commercial semi-State bodies would not normally have to consult, or obtain the approval of Government Departments. They would, of course if there were major extra outlay or specific strategic implications involved. Only in very exceptional circumstances should Government Departments be involved in the day-to-day decisions of State-sponsored bodies.

Deputy Barry referred to the quality of remuneration of directors. The main issue here is that people on the boards of State enterprises must have appropriate qualifications and wide experience. It is the job of the Government and the relevant Minister to ensure that their nominees for board membership meet these criteria. Full-time or executive directors normally have the relevant qualification and experience, but we must also ensure that non-executive directors have the same characteristics and fully realise the public service aspects of such directorships. I am emphasising the importance of reviewing the quality of appointments in respect of non-executive directors to semi-State companies. With the appropriate expertise non-executive directors can provide an invaluable element of control on behalf of the shareholder, who in this case is the taxpayer, over a company's management. Irrespective of how much non-executive directors are paid, membership of a State body is for many, a form of practical patriotism and it should continue to be so. The fees for non-executive directors are derisory. I am glad to note from the guidelines published by the Minister for Finance earlier this week that the payment of fees to the directors of State companies and their subsidiaries is being reviewed and that further guidelines will be issued. This review is overdue. I hope that on its completion fees for non-executive directors will reflect the expertise and general contribution of these directors and that such fees will be brought somewhat nearer private sector company practice.

I note from the Department of Finance guidelines that the chairmen of all State companies are reminded that they are required to implement Government policy in relation to the remuneration of the chief executive and that the arrangements made cover total remuneration. The guidelines clearly reflect an anxiety about the need to avoid unacceptable practices which cut across public service standards of integrity.

The remuneration argument I have made in respect of non-executive directors applies in the case of executive directors including the chief executive. There are many examples of senior executives in the semi-State sector whose remuneration, in line with the Gleeson Commission, does not realistically compare with the going rate in the private sector. I appeal for realistic remuneration for full-time executives. In the case of non-executive directors, we cannot expect senior and experienced business people to take on the time-consuming and onerous duties of a non-executive director, especially since the enactment of the Companies Act, 1990, for derisory fees.

This is not an idealistic scenario that I am painting. We must not be naive. What we need on the boards of semi-State companies are men and women with a wide experience of the tough practical dimensions of business. We must trust them to ensure acceptable standards. Trust is a fundamental ingredient of business practices. In a country as small as ours, there is an absolute need to be frank and forthcoming, as conflicts of interest must be resolved almost on a daily basis. If, however, any wilful wrongdoing occurs in a State company, action must be taken after calm, realistic examination. We have to be fair and equitable and be seen to be such. Where wrongdoing occurs it must be dealt with after careful and realistic examination.

I welcome the guidelines for State bodies published by the Department of Finance. I have spent many years in the area of business education and I welcome the provision of courses in ethics for business students. This makes particular sense when we consider that many of those who study business administration, indeed many of my former students, are now on boards, public and private. Courses, and codes of ethics, are useful and they have their place, but the issue of morality which arises stands or falls on the basis of individual honesty. At the end of the day we are talking about individual honesty and integrity. It is crucial to have people on boards who can distinguish between right and wrong and be of high probity and wide experience.

This raises the question whether further regulation or legislation is required or is desirable. When we talk about the desirability of further regulation, we must take stock of what is in place. Commercial State-sponsored bodies are subject to the Companies Acts, 1963 to 1990, with some exceptions. These Acts, in particular the Companies Act, 1990, have stringent provisions for controlling and regulating the activities of companies and their directors. There are tough requirements for directors to declare their interests in transactions, including property transactions. The transactions which are currently the subject of investigation, including the report before us, occurred prior to the enactment of this Act.

Our international reputation depends on ensuring that our laws are capable of adequately regulating modern business. The Companies Act, 1990, introduced a stringent environment for business here. The difficulty about this new environment is enforcement. We must ensure that sufficient resources are allocated to the fraud squad to investigate major irregularities. I would not dismiss out of hand the suggestion that a serious fraud office be established. In England, for example, that body has access to teams of accountants, lawyers, policemen and other specialists and they all work together on major investigations. We could experiment with this concept by giving the fraud squad the capability to second persons of the requisite skills from other areas of the public sector or from the private sector to assist in complex investigations. The important point behind all this is that no person should be allowed to stay one step ahead of the law.

The Companies Act, 1990, provides for the setting up of investigations and the appointment of inspectors with extensive powers. We now know that these investigations cost a lot of money. Enforcing laws in the modern complicated business world will never be easy and will always require a large degree of expertise which will not come cheap. There are lessons to be learned from the enormous cost of the Siúicre Éireann investigation. In future, we should set a clearer and well defined agenda for inspectors. The aim should be to agree overall fees in advance and public servants could well be employed in such investigations, as back up, thus saving a lot of money in that respect.

I am happy that I do not interefere with the Deputy's stream of thoughts.

The amendment in my name and that of my colleagues reflects our view of the inadequacy of the Government motion before the House. I will refer specifically to the section of our amendment which expresses puzzlement at the conflict with the Curran report concerning the central issue of the beneficial ownership of Talmino. We regret the failure of the inspectors to examine more closely the role of the board of Siúicre Éireann and the adequacy of ministerial supervision of the company. We welcome the decision to refer the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions but express outrage at the level of personal fees charged by the inspectors. We urge the Government to take steps to ensure that fees for any such future inspections are properly controlled and if possible fixed in advance.

It is my party's conviction that after almost six months and enormous costs exceeding £1 million, the public were entitled to expect a comprehensive and conclusive report on the Greencore affair. What we have got is a narrowly based report which eschews areas of sensitivity, conflicts with some of the inspectors' own earlier interim conclusions and, most importantly, conflicts with the central finding of the Government's inspector, Mr. Curran, concerning the beneficial ownership of Talmino.

The public will need to be reminded that were it not for the work of a journalist, Mr. Sam Smyth, this whole sordid affair would in all probability never have come to light. The legal proceedings initiated by Mr. Comerford might well have been settled out of court. I am quite sure that if the parties had the opportunity over again that is precisely what they would do. In these circumstances the taxpayer need never have learned about the manner in which they were effectively ripped off and taken advantage of by this small group of executives.

Politicians in this House and outside, who have argued that the recent spate of business scandals are in no way typical of Irish business — and I believe they are not — must be disturbed nonetheless by the manner in which the Greencore affair and subsequent business scandals were made public. This whole affair therefore demonstrates the need for far greater transparency and accountability, not just for semi-State companies but for the entire business and commercial sectors.

I do not intend to retrace the steps of previous speakers, some of whom have detailed the extent and nature of the fraud and corruption perpetrated against a State company by a gang of highway men masquerading as respectable business executives. The first question that matters now is how such a fraud was allowed to happen under the very noses of the chairman of the board and of the Ministers for Agriculture and Food and Finance? I agree with Deputy Barry that we deplore the absence from the House, and as contributors to the debate, of the former Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy O'Kennedy, and the present Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley.

The second question that must be asked is whether this very expensive report, which took six months to complete, satisfies the reasonable expectations of the public for comprehensive definitive explanations? Third, how did such wrongdoings escape the attention of auditors, solicitors, and professional advisers and does the report deal with these issues? Fourth, was there political interference with the work of the inspectors, and if so, for what purpose?

In my view it is most disturbing that the inspectors are silent on the role, performance and attention to duty of the financial advisers. For example, Mr. Richard Hooper of IBI has gone on record to say on more than one occasion that he was satisfied that the valuation was a fair one. Yet, the following paragraph appears at the end of section 6.3 of the report:

As part of our investigations we requisitioned from IBI all of their files in relation to the acquisition of Gladebrook. Having carried out a comprehensive review of the bank's files, there is no documentary evidence of a valuation of SDH having been carried out by IBI. It should, however, be stressed again that they had been given no instructions by Siúicre Éireann to undertake such a written valuation.

How can Mr. Hooper claim to have carried out a valuation and defended the price as "fair" in view of that conclusion? It is not possible for Mr. Hooper to have claimed publicly, as he has, that he carried out such an evaluation and that he was satisfied it could be defended on a reasonable profits-earnings expectation. Clearly the inspectors say there is no evidence of such a valuation of SDH. Indeed how can the inspectors justify glossing over and transparently excusing such a conclusion?

Dealing with the flotation of Greencore, the inspectors say on page 198 of their report that

when we indicated to Arthur Cox, who were acting on behalf of IBI, that we wished to examine witnesses from Norton Rose — a London firm of solicitors who had been engaged as professional advisers to act for and on behalf of IBI in the offer for sale of shares in Greencore plc — on the issues arising, we were advised that IBI would not waive privilege in relation to certain matters contained in the correspondence passing between their client and its London solicitors. Furthermore IBI refused to admit the above mentioned documents that the Inspectors were examining and putting to witnesses.

The inspectors note on page 199 of their report that as a result of this they had no option but "to abandon this aspect of the investigation."

Mr. Hooper of IBI has on several occasions explained his advice to the Sugar Company board on the basis that SDH was bought and sold on a profits-earnings ratio of eight. Yet if one takes the profit record as outlined in the company's own report to Government, the following profits-earnings ratio can be deduced: on a profits-earning historic basis, the management buy-out is shown at the ratio of 6.2:1 and Greencore acquisition at 14.8:1, in other words management bought a stake in SDH for 6.2 times its profits-earnings and sold it for 14.8 times profits after tax.

I have justified in a table how I arrived at those figures and with your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I would like to have it circulated for the purpose of inclusion in the Official Report.

The following are the figures:

Profit Record Per Report to Government.

1986

1987

1988

1989

1990

£000

£000

£000

£000

£000

PBT

868

1,086

1,550

1,970

3,099

Tax

324

373

583

657

718

PAT

544

713

967

1,313

2,381

Transactions

1. MBO Early 1989

£million

Price

6.0

P/E Historic

6.2

P/E Forecast

4.9

2. SE Acquisition February 1990

£million

Price

19.4

P/E Historic

14.8

P/E Forecast

8.1

IBI benefit from extensive business from the public service and especially from semi-State companies. I suggest that any company such as IBI who refuse to cooperate with inspectors appointed by the courts in the public interest and force them to abandon part of the investigation, should never again benefit from any contract from any public body in this State.

The unspoken convention that professionals will not indict one another is reinforced by this report. The conclusion, for example, that Mr. Comerford is not the beneficial owner of Talmino, contrary to the conclusion of the Curran report leaves us with a crime without a motive. Why on earth would Mr. Comerford risk so much by seeking to legally assert ownership of Talmino either for himself or his family? Of course, ownership of Talmino would constitute such a serious breach of the 1963 Act in terms of the requirements of the prospectus for flotation that not only does the director making the false claim risk going to prison but so do his advisers if it can be shown that they were aware of the false claim. God knows they were paid enough fees to seek to appraise themselves of any misleading statements in the prospectus for the flotation.

I am afraid that the hard pressed taxpayer must draw the cynical conclusion that it is all too convenient for the inspectors to gloss over such fundamental issues. It is my own view from reading the report that one of Mr. Cahill's many talents is a convenient memory. He has very poor recall on critical issues. So as far as I am concerned the question should have been asked in the report: "Did Mr. Cahill connive in the wrongdoing by not stopping those transactions?" Unfortunately this question is not seriously addressed. Otherwise Mr. Cahill was completely unaware, we must presume, of what was happening under his very nose. In either event the least contribution that Mr. Cahill could now make to restoring public confidence in the conduct of Irish business is to resign as chairman.

Even more indefensible is the inspector's refusal to analyse the involvement of the Cork solicitor, Mr. John J. Murphy. Why should this person have any claim to the proceeds of this rip off? What did he do for Mr. Comerford or whomever else to justify claiming 50 per cent of Talmino? If one wishes to talk in terms of the loan note, 50 per cent of that must be worth more than £1 million. What did Mr. John J. Murphy, solicitor, do to warrant asserting a right to £1 million in the share of this rip-off of the Irish taxpayer? It is most unsatisfactory that the inspectors are silent on such an important dimension of this affair.

If memory serves me, there is a peculiar reference in the report concerning evidence given by Mr. Comerford to the inspectors. He mentioned, very much en passant, that he recalled Mr. Murphy whingeing because he felt he was excluded from the purchase of the Milford mill. That is the only reference to Milford Bakery that I can find in the report. I have mentioned this privately on a number of occasions to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I would have been more satisfied with this report if the inspectors had examined the circumstances surrounding the purchase of Milford Bakery and the subsequent management buy-out, with the effective termination of business in the mill and the redundancy of a number of workers. Yet it is the testimony of Mr. Murphy and others — all of whom have a substantial vested interest in the outcome — that leads the inspectors to the conclusion that Mr. Comerford has no beneficial interest in Talmino. I appreciate that this matter will be decided in the courts but I find it difficult to reconcile how Mr. Comerford would risk such savage indictment for a few bob consultancy fees paid through an off-shore company.

The question of the adequacy of the supervision of the company, which was at that time wholly owned by the tax-payers—although Mr. Comerford seems to have viewed it as his personal property — has not been gone into. There is no examination of the roles of the Ministers for Agriculture and Food or Finance, although they were the custodians of the public interest in the company.

Neither have the inspectors anything to say about whether it was proper for a State company to make extensive use of off-shore companies, located in jurisdictions to provide tax havens and to allow them to take advantage of less rigorous company law requirements. Are we to take it that this is now such a normal part of business practice in Ireland that it does not even merit comment?

If the inspectors were severe in their judgments on Mr. Comerford, they were remarkably tolerant in their assessment of the role of the boards of the Irish Sugar Company and Greencore. Given all that has happened, there is general public astonishment that the board are still in place and especially that those members of the current board of Greencore who were also members of the board of the pre-privatised Irish Sugar Company, are still in office. The chairman, Mr. Cahill, falls into this category.

The first finding of the second interim report issued by the inspectors on 11 November said that `the report furnished by the board of Greencore plc to the Government and dated 9 September appears to be both erroneous and misleading in at least five material respects'. This is a most serious accusation, yet it is not followed up in any satisfactory way in the final report. We are not given any further information, we are not told the basis on which the inspectors conclude in the final report that there was no deliberate attempt to mislead.

The accusations made by the inspectors against Mr. Comerford are probably the most serious ever to have been made against an executive of a semi-State company in the history of the State. What would the people who built the State companies think of this conduct? What kind of picture is painted of life at the top of the Sugar Company for those workers who are redundant arising from decisions taken by Mr. Comerford and his fellow conspirators? Mature, grown men squabbling about the share-out of the spoils. Tully, in tears, whining about, "I'm only half a man: you are whole men", when he felt he was not getting his fair share. Any time up to August of last year Mr. Comerford and his colleagues were the darlings of the business writers, the men who had turned an inefficient State company around and prepared it for privatisation, people who would have been pointed to as role models for aspiring executives. One must ask if these are just the rotten exceptions in Irish business.

The level of personal fees charged by the inspectors has, quite rightly, caused massive public indignation. I do not believe that anyone, no matter how talented, is worth a personal fee of £250,000 for six months' work. There is a perception abroad that the inspectors milked this inquiry for all it was worth — quite legally, of course. We have to look at ways in the future of ensuring that the pursuit of truth does not cost the taxpayer an arm and a leg. The total cost of this investigation is virtually equivalent to the entire budget for the Comptroller and Auditor General. Surely there must be a case for expanding the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General to provide some of the necessary expertise for this type of work.

Like my party Leader, Deputy De Rossa, in the earlier debate, I do not question the integrity of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, on this matter. However, I feel Deputy O'Malley has been less than forthcoming on this affair. Whereas I share Deputy O'Malley's concern about the operation of a golden circle in recent scandals, surely the Minister has left himself open to charges of extending the golden circle by giving such a lucrative contract to such a prominent Progressive Democrat supporter? If it is true that the accountancy firm of which Aidan Barry is managing partner advised Musgraves and Punchs at the time of the acquisition of their shares in Sugar Distributors by the management buy-out, then this represents a further reason why Deputy O'Malley should have chosen more wisely. I commend the Minister for his concern about the cost of the inquiry, but if it is true that he agreed the exorbitant per diem open-ended rates with the inspectors in advance, what purpose did he intend to achieve by interfering subsequently other than through the court?

On reflection the Minister must agree that attempting to curtail the costs in this context risks being viewed as attempting to influence the contents of the report. I am puzzled as to why Deputy O'Malley should seek to have such a poisoned chalice transferred to him from then Minister, Deputy Burke? Why not leave Deputy Burke to deal with it? I would like the Minister to tell the House if it is true that the most frequent contact between himself and Mr. Barry took place around the time of the publication of the second interim report and that it ceased when Mr. Foley let his irritation be known — thus explaining why the Foley-Barry statement last week referred only to their final report.

Every citizen of this country must be committed to the twin goals of a just society and a growing economy, yet these goals are in no way in conflict with each other. In reality they are parallel and interdependent. We cannot hope for long term economic growth if our society is ravaged by internal dissent, rancour and exploitation. Neither can justice be expected to prevail unless all our people have a share in a growing economy. Commercial crime attacks the very foundations of both a just society and a viable economy. If malpractice becomes the norm in business, if fraud becomes an acceptable aspect of commerce and if side deals or pay-offs pervade trading relationships, then we all suffer.

As the unsavoury affairs in the former Siúicre Éireann unfolded last September, it was my and the Government's firm resolve to address immediately the disquiet shared by everyone that wrongdoing of a very serious nature was involved and I, with the support of Government, initiated the inquiries. It was vital first to demonstrate to ourselves that malpractice wherever it occurred would be rooted out and would not be allowed any place in Irish commercial activity. It was also essential to ensure that the reputation of Irish industry was not damaged by any belief that somehow dishonesty was condoned by act or by omission. Such a view would seriously undermine the efforts of the Government and the IDA in securing inward investment, as investors would seek safer waters in which to conduct their business affairs. It would also damage investment by domestic companies by undermining their confidence in the economy, and finally it would damage our international trading relationships if others felt that dealing with Irish companies carried an additional risk. Mindful of these factors, we acted promptly and resolutely.

This is in stark contrast to the ongoing history of questionable activity in the meat processing trade where, I believe, had sufficient investigations been carried out several years ago when the first indications of malpractice there became known, then our meat industry would not be experiencing the difficulties it has today. It has very serious difficulties as an industry and those difficulties affect everyone in the industry, including the many honest operators.

Commercial fraud and malpractice provide only short term gains for the perpetrators and they undermine in a fundamental way the whole industry in which they take place. If commercial malpractice is allowed to take hold in an industry, its first impact is to drive out honest companies who are not able to compete with that distortion. With the departure of the honest businessman the long term future of the industry is sealed in eventual stagnation and decline. As the honest businessmen are excluded, the producers and consumers fall victim to the avarice of the unscrupulous. Over the long term, trading relationships become less viable and when the quick buck is made, the industry is abandoned to the detriment of employees, consumers, suppliers and the country as a whole.

It is grossly irresponsible of a society, and of its institutions in particular, to allow such a situation to evolve. The lesson to be learned is that such practice, when exposed, must be pursued in a prompt and vigorous fashion, leaving no stone unturned, to ensure that justice is done and done in a visible way.

Tax evasion is just as pernicious as other forms of misconduct and it, too, undermines the economy in which it thrives. If we as a people truly aspire to higher standards of living we must say a very definite no to those who would extract our wealth to satisfy their personal greed. Honest work produces honest rewards which people have a right to enjoy. Dishonest activity steals from us all in attacking the heart of both a society and its economy. The problem of poverty and unemployment lies squarely at the feet of those who abuse the system for their own gain.

I can assure this House that, as my record shows, I have never stood idly by — and I will never do so — in matters such as this. Indeed, if I have a fault for which I am being criticised, it is that I did not choose to be less zealous in showing my concerns about matters such as this. It would, unfortunately, have been more acceptable to this society if I were less zealous. My commitment to the creation of an environment of confidence and trust is unquestionable. I have put through this House over the past several years major legislative reforms in the company and competition law areas aimed at ensuring maximum transparency and fairness in the conduct of business. I have been to the fore in ensuring that malfeasance or misconduct wherever they occur are rooted out and dealt with.

At this point in the interests of our general economic welfare, it is important to stress that all business or corporate activity should not be tarred with the same brush. I have no doubt that most business in this country is carried out with integrity, with commitment, with zeal and with enterprise. I have previously acknowledged this in the House. It is vitally important that we secure the reputation of that majority, so that the markets they serve — whether domestic or foreign — can have the confidence of knowing that their commercial dealings with industry and business here can be conducted on a fair and well regulated basis.

As to the substance of this report, the House will already have heard from other Goverment speakers as to the actions being pursued in relation to the findings. It may, however, be useful to recapitulate on some of those actions. The report was immediately made available to the Director of Public Prosecutions with a view to taking proceedings against those who, where the evidence indicates, have breached criminal law.

The Revenue Commissioners are actively investigating the new evidence regarding the tax dimensions, both in relation to corporate bodies and individuals. Again, the issue here is as much about fairness and transparency as it is about retribution for misdeeds. The general public are not going to be impressed if they see a certain segment of the population being able to escape their obligations by means of various offshore ruses or gaining the benefit of dubiously generated windfalls.

For my own part, the section 16 restrictions on the so-called Talmino loan note remains in force. As I mentioned earlier, legal proceedings to recover all secret profits have also been instituted by Greencore and the company have also frozen all the Gladebrook loan notes to the value of £6 million.

There are also provisions under the Companies Act, 1990, for the recovery of the costs of the inquiry and associated proceedings so that those found guilty of offences or those who benefit directly as a result of the investigation should bear this burden. These aspects will be rigorously pursued on the Government's behalf in the courts. The courts also have further powers under the Act which would remedy, as necessary any disability suffered as a result of the conduct of the affairs of the companies investigated.

The inspectors' reports outline a catalogue of activites which range from being downright illegal or negligent to being ethically unacceptable. These cannot be tolerated and much of the redress will rest with the courts, whether through criminal or civil proceedings.

There are, however, broader lessons to be brought home to us from this experience: first, the importance of the role of the board or the directors of companies vis-á-vis their executives, and their role in ensuring that the executives understand the fact that they are answerable to the board, and not as it sometimes appears in the case of one or two State companies, almost the other way around; second, the ultimate responsibility which the board carry in ensuring that the statutory requirements of company law are met. In that regard, for instance, the report catalogues a series of failures on the part of the companies to keep proper statutory books and to make the necessary public disclosures.

What is particularly ominous in this case is that when this company were a public board they had several dozen subsidiary companies, in respect of which the provisions of the Companies Acts, in regard to the filing of returns and so on were not observed. I have constantly deplored the failure of private companies to comply with their obligations in this regard. This was a wholly State owned company which was just as neglectful as any private company. Third and last but by no means least is the question of the responsibility the board have for the activities of subsidiary companies. The question may well be asked as to whether the board of Siúcre Éireann performed satisfactorily in the areas I have mentioned. I believe they did not. It has been a feature of some State companies and boards in recent years to create a large number of subsidiary companies. I have drawn the Government's attention to that fact because I suspect that in some cases it may have been for the purpose of trying to evade the scrutiny which would normally apply to the main company.

These are areas the Government are addressing further in relation particularly to State boards and companies. My colleague, the Minister for Finance, has announced certain actions by the Government in this regard.

In recent years, we have significantly enhanced our company law provisions. I placed a great emphasis on these improvements and sought to advance them urgently at all times. However, it has to be said that while the legal environment is central in setting a framework for necessary action to redress wrongdoings, much depends on our attitudes in society generally. Proper conduct cannot be wholly guaranteed by law alone, no matter now comprehensive that law may be. The maintenance of high standards of business behaviour depends also on the proper exercise of responsibilities by all in positions of trust and authority — by company directors and management, by auditors and by supervisory authorities.

A word here would also be appropriate about the State sector, wherein undeniably this scandal occurred. The public have a proper interest in being assured that State companies are not undermined for private gain by people in positions of trust. The activities now clearly documented in the inspectors' report were indefensible. I am particularly anxious that the legal actions already commenced by Greencore be now pursued with vigour. I am also anxious that the Director of Public Prosecutions pursue the matters brought to light by the inspectors' reports with all due expedition. The public sector has a long standing reputation for proper behaviour and commitment to high standards of public service. It is crucial that this is not put at risk by the actions of a few.

My colleague, the Minister for Finance has already outlined additional procedures recommended by the Secretary of his Department and which the Government have decided to adopt in order to deal with any possibility of a recurrence. My concerns about the investigative procedures, under which the investigation was carried out, have been well voiced in this House and elsewhere. Procedurally both this investigation and others currently being carried out have substantially stood the test they faced and have indicated that it is possible in that way to get to the bottom of the affairs being investigated. There are obviously some unsatisfactory elements, one of those being the conflicting views, both based on sworn evidence, to emerge with respect to the ownership of the Talmino loan note. It must, however, be remembered that these were inquiries, not an adjudication process, and even if the two reports had agreed on this point, it was always inevitably going to be an issue that could only be decided by the courts.

The other procedural aspect on which I have made clear my concern has been the actual cost of the inquiry and the length of time it took to produce the report. I have already given the House figures in this respect and I leave it to Deputies to decide for themselves if it reflects value for the significant expenditure involved.

In the time remaining to me, I would like to refer briefly to some of the points raised by Deputies during the debate. Deputy Barry claimed that it was never envisaged in the course of the passage of the Companies Bill through the Dáil that individuals would be criticised in reports, but that is not so. It is impossible to produce a report on a matter like this without criticising individuals.

To criticise them, yes, but not pass judgment.

It is impossible in some way not to pass judgment even if it is only a case of stating what the facts are. It must follow from that——

As the Minister was not present to hear my contribution, let me point out to him that my complaint was that he made a charge against the former chief executive of Greencore, Mr. Comerford, which I think is something the courts should do. He passed judgment and I do not think that is appropriate for the inspectors.

Being realistic, it would be impossible to avoid that and I think it would be generally accepted that reports would be of little use if they did not come to some conclusions. The more usually expressed criticism in regard to the report we are discussing may well be that it did not come to enough conclusions rather than that it came to too many.

If the Minister reads what I said he will get my point.

Deputy Noonan wanted to know whether I was taking legal action in relation to certain allegations that were made about me. I should tell the Deputy in that regard that I will not canvass my intentions in respect of such a matter in advance either here or elsewhere. When I take that action I will take it without making any announcements.

Deputy Spring said that I was not as forthcoming as I should have been and that my intervention was entirely counterproductive and unwise. He went on to say that if I repeated my denials of improper interference he would accept my word. I think he was referring in particular to what was claimed to be some further evidence in regard to my alleged improper interference that was published last Sunday. All I have to say in respect of that matter is that I read it and it did not seem to contain anything new but in so far as there was, I would certainly repeat my assurances of last week. I repeat that I did express concern and communicate with one of the inspectors on numerous occasions about the question of costs and the duration of the report. Deputy Rabbitte inquired whether I had ceased from October or early November when the second interim report was presented but I did not because obviously the question of cost and duration became even more intense after that. Not alone did I say what I had to say in private, I would remind Deputies that I also said what I had to say in public in open court on three occasions. I do not know how one can be more transparent than that and therefore how one can be accused of doing something improper.

Deputy Roche asked about the manner in which these inspectors were appointed and asked about arrangements in the Law Library but I would not like to get into that sensitive field. I should say however in respect of one of the inspectors, for whose appointment I was personally responsible, that not alone was he not my first choice but that, I think I am correct in saying, he was not among my first five choices. In such cases there is the greatest difficulty in getting people to undertake this work, particularly if the companies involved have widespread ramifications. People in all the larger firms in Dublin, both accountancy and legal, seem to have acted for some party at some time and are thereby ruled out.

Deputy Connaughton suggested that I was concerned about the European Commission's investigation, by DG IV, into Siúicre Éireann and their alleged anti-competitive practices in the sugar market and that that was the reason I was concerned about the matter but that is not so.

Deputy who?

Deputy Connaughton, I am told.

He did not contribute.

Obviously, they got the name wrong. I do not know the name of the Deputy involved but I want to assure whoever it was that I am not concerned about the sugar monopoly question nor do I intend to look into it unless and until I get the report from DG IV on that question. If further inquiries or an investigation by me is needed in this country it will be taken.

In conclusion, Deputy Rabbitte asked whether I agreed to the fee of £1,750 per day. The answer is that I did not. I was not consulted about it and I did not discover that this was the fee until some time later. That is the reason I became very concerned about it. I had no part in agreeing to the fee. When I heard the figure I immediately expressed the view that it was too high, and that remains my view.

I welcome this opportunity to comment on the Irish Sugar Company. During what was a turbulent period for the Sugar Company it fell to me, on behalf of the House, to chair the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. When the difficulties confronting the Sugar Company, which form the basis of the Greencore report came to light we went about our task in an all-party realistic way. Having been the subject of false allegations, I can understand the hurt the Minister for Industry and Commerce feels in regard to the allegations which have been made in recent weeks concerning this stewardship in overseeing the preparation and completion of this report. I wish to put it on the record of the House that I was the subject of a similar political witch-hunt by my colleagues from other parties serving on the committee when I was chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. A former colleague of the Minister, former Deputy Pat O'Malley pursued a personal vendetta and erroneous campaign against me as chairman of that committee at the time that committee were examining the workings of the Irish Sugar Company.

I welcome this opportunity to put it firmly on the record that during that turbulent period, when the plants at Tuam and Thurles were being rationalised, I and the secretariat of that all-party committee received a report on the implications the closure of the factory at Thurles would have along with a request from the chairman of the Sugar Company-Greencore not to circulate the report given its sensitivity. In my political innocence, accepting the recommendations of the secretariat, that request was honoured. However, journalist, Mr. Dick Walsh, telephoned me late at night to find out if I had withheld a report from my colleagues on the committee, courtesy of former Deputy Pat O'Malley, but in accordance with correct procedures, I denied it. Of course there was a report in the possession of the secretariat but it had not been circulated as requested by the chairman, I presume at the suggestion of the chief executive, Mr. Chris Comerford. That completely deflected the all-party committee of this House from proceeding with their legitimate inquiries into the workings of the Irish Sugar Company. We had visited Mallow and, with limited fees, negotiated, prior to their appointment, one of the leading chartered accountants who were assisting the all-party committee. It seems ridiculous that nobody seems to have negotiated the fees. Did no one have responsibility? Why were they not negotiated? The Minister who has just left the House did not negotiate them. Whose responsibility was it to negotiate the proper procedures? I fail to see how one can telephone somebody afterwards to harangue them about the cost without getting embroiled in the inquiry. I trust that the participants, in defending the build-up of costs, justified in the report their complex task.

The Progressive Democrats, in their lily-white procedures, made false allegations against me. The Minister is now upset that he is the target of criticism? I fully understand that and sympathise with him. I was a member of the committee on the Companies Bill. I have much respect for Deputy O'Malley in his work as a public representative, he put on the Statute Book pro-competition laws and various other aspects of company legislation which gave rise to this report which would not have been possible previously.

To be fair, Deputy John Bruton, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, initiated the Bill but I cannot be quite as charitably disposed towards his predecessor, Deputy Dukes, who as leader of the largest opposition party in this House, criticised me for visiting Thurles, ostensibly, as he said, to attend the Munster Final but alleging it was to take over the Irish Sugar Company. That was the kind of nonsensical waffle with which this House was preoccupied during that time. It was absolutely ridiculous.

My constituency colleague, Deputy Mac Giolla, got in on the act and also made false allegations. As it involved the workings of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies, I stepped aside so that the committee work could proceed. Deputy Kavanagh, the chairman of the committee, who knew the truth, refrained from negative criticism and false allegations. The matter concluded the day this House was dissolved and the all-party committee forgot about their purpose and task of looking into the workings of the Irish Sugar Company. Instead, they looked into the allegations of withholding so-called confidential information from other members of the committee. They found that correct and proper procedures had been pursued.

The Irish Sugar Company were always controversial and Mr. Comerford, in my recollection was a very difficult executive with whom to deal as far as public representatives and politicians were concerned. I did not have many dealings with him, he came formally to the hearings and answered our questions. Obviously, in the closure of the factories in Thurles and Tuam, Deputies were quite concerned and had a turbulent relationship with the Irish Sugar Company. There always seemed to be a reluctance to report frankly and openly to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies. The then secretary of the board of the company, Mr. Tully, was a party to the submission of the report and said that it should be confidential and not made available to public representatives. That sort of managerial behaviour by the chief executive and his key executives in the Irish Sugar Company did not make for a good, open working relationship with the politicians. Tragically, a report on that period is now before the House for debate. I am not familiar with the problems which are so comprehensively reported on, all I can say is that we were deflected from our work as an all-party committee in an open, frank and pragmatic way. Unfortunately, it became part of the Opposition and Government tactics to make false allegations but I hope that period has now passed. Although it has been proved that the allegations did not have any substance, why spoil a good story with the truth? I have been swamped by false allegations and I was incapable of dealing with them because there were so many. It became the order of the day during that period of Government and now Deputy O'Malley is suffering in the same way.

I hope there will now be a new beginning although, unfortunately, the allegations yesterday about jobs, and so on do not augur well for the future, especially when politicians from the same constituency try to score political points over their colleagues. I hope there is an acceptance that Members of this House can work — and have worked — for the common good. That is what we were doing when we were so rudely interrupted in 1987.

I want to take this opportunity to speak on matters of concern to me in relation to Greencore, the cost of the various inspectors' reports and in general the whole question of the cost of tribunals of inquiries and matters of that kind.

The House has sidelined itself by being prepared to confer powers on all sorts of persons outside this House, court and ministerially appointed inspectors, tribunals of inquiry, every individual one can think of, except this House. It is not often referred to — although I have done so recently — that the English name for this House is the House of Representatives. That is what the Constitution says about this House but we have lost sight of that. It is not just a legislature, this House has the unique task of holding the Executive accountable. It is our responsibility under the Constitution — not the responsibility of the Seanad, the courts, tribunals, inspectors or anybody else. As a House of Representatives we have failed dismally. Given the weakness of the supervisory role of the committees of this House and of the House itself, Greencore was waiting to happen. I strongly suspect that there are other Greencores which have not been discovered and which have never come to the attention of this House. Indeed, the Greencore scandal would never have come to the attention of the House if it had not been for the reporting of an investigative journalist. That is a grave reflection on this House.

There is only one constitutional officer who works specifically for the Parliament, that is, the Comptroller and Auditor General. His appointment is akin to the appointment of a High Court judge in his terms of reference and he is independent. However, we then tie his hands by providing him with a budget of £1.48 million and making him operate under legislation which was passed by the British Parliament in 1866 when Gladstone was Chancellor of the Exchequer — he was not even Prime Minister at that time. The entire annual budget for the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is £1.48 million, yet we pay two inspectors £1.12 million for 20 weeks work. Can there be anything more outrageous than that? We have given the powers and the resources to the wrong people.

As a Parliament, it is our job to hold the Government and their agencies accountable. Our committee system should be strengthened by giving committees proper powers of subpoena and examination and proper back-up resources. I will address this matter over the weekend; I will not detain the House at this stage. If the Comptroller and Auditor General can audit all State expenditure on a budget of £1.48 million, what would he be able to do if he had the extra £1.12 million, which we gave to these inspectors? He could hire outside consultants to help him and let the House know if we get value for money from State expenditure.

When the 1866 Act was passed, the Estimates for the Civil Services for Britain and Ireland was £7 million. The Estimates for this State in any given year, taking debt servicing into account, now exceeds £15 billion. Is there anyone in this House who believes that 1 per cent of that expenditure is not wasteful? One per cent of £15 billion is £150 million. There is certainly a small but significant percentage of this Estimate which could be identified and cut out, yet we insist on tying the hands of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Every week since 1989 I have stood up in this House seeking the legislation which the Committee of Public Accounts endorsed and set out in clear terms for updating the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

It is time the Committee of Public Accounts, together with the Comptroller and Auditor General, undertook a special examination of the cost of tribunals, inquiries, inspectors' reports and consultants' reports which in recent years have added up to amounts which can be described in one word as scandalous. In 1987 a report on the sale of Tara Mines was compiled for the Department of Energy; this House paid £660,000 for that report. I want to make it clear that Governments have no money; it is Parliament which provides the money from the taxpayer. Yet the committee of this House charged with undertaking the examination of whether the sale of Tara Mines for $50 million was fair could not have access to that report because of some confidentiality clause. The entire area of reports by consultants, inquiries, tribunals and court and ministerial appointed inspectors cost the State a pretty penny in recent years and this happened when the Comptroller and Auditor General had not been given the powers he should have.

The reason for this is that the permanent government, the Civil Service, have developed a contempt for Parliament. We, in Parliament, have allowed that contempt to develop through petty party politicking across the floor, regardless of who is in Government. This has to stop. I would go some way with what Deputy Lawlor said in this regard. Why should the Department of Finance and other Departments have enormous funds available for consultancy reports which they then keep confidential while £75,000, a miserly sum, is provided for Oireachtas committees to carry out their examinations? The tail has wagged the dog silly and it is time the dog reasserted itself.

At the centre of the Greencore affair, and other affairs to which I will refer in other debates, is a lack of democratic parliamentary accountability. It is time this House brought State Departments and agencies back into line so that full democratic accountability is restored. The way to do this is by giving the committees of this House proper powers of inquiry and restoring to the Comptroller and Auditor General the signal powers which he obtained in 1866 but which have been eroded by the passage of time and the explosion of expenditure.

I will be bringing before the Committee of Public Accounts a recommendation by which the committee can review all of these costs and make a special report. I hope that when the time comes, this House will take cognisance of the recommendations of the committee because, as I said, it is an area which requires deep examination, careful disquisition and report.

The debate so far has given an indication of the sorry mess the Greencore-Irish Sugar saga has turned into. This reflects very poorly on Ireland's image abroad. It can also lead to a lack of confidence by business institutions outside the country in Irish businesses. As my colleague, Deputy Gay Mitchell said, it reflects poorly on the ability of this House to take action to elicit the necessary information at short notice in any given time in order to ensure that an issue does not degenerate to the extent this crisis did.

Perhaps a further inquiry should be instituted into the tensions which now appear to exist between the two Government parties. Having listened to the debate for the past half an hour, I think there may be some basis for such an inquiry. No doubt the information gleaned would be made known at a later stage. The obvious tensions between the two Government parties were alluded to by at least two speakers, one of whom spoke a few moments ago. I am genuinely sorry about this. The tensions which have manifested themselves again here today are an example of how the people in the political arena who are labelled with all the responsibility for doing the job right get none of the credit which should go with doing the job right and trying to ensure that nothing goes wrong, that institutions are accountable and our good image is always kept to the fore. While on the one hand I might rejoice at these tensions, on the other, I am slightly worried as to who might benefit from this in the long run.

(Wexford): The Deputy is shadow-boxing.

On countless occasions in this House I have referred to the necessity for Governments, Taoisigh and Ministers to answer to the very best of their ability questions raised at any time in the House. I cannot over-emphasise the necessity for this. It does not matter what the subject matter of the question is or who the Minister is, we should all remember that while the question might be to the short term advantage of the Member of the Opposition asking it, it can also be to the long term advantage of the person whose responsibility it is to answer it. No Minister or Taoiseach should ever shelter behind bureaucracy when asked a straight question. Even if the answer embarrasses the Minister, it may well be to the benefit of the country at some stage in the future if it is answered honestly. The sooner we recognise that the better. I agree with my colleague, Deputy Gay Mitchell, that there are institutions available to carry out investigations, and they can do so very effectively and at comparatively little cost.

I would mention again that I was one of the unenlightened, unfortunate and stressed people who sat on the Companies Bill committee. As a person with no legal experience, what struck me was the large number of references that have to be made to the courts or to inspectors appointed by the courts and I mentioned that fact on three or four occasions during discussion on the Bill. I cannot understand why people are concerned about the cost at this stage because it is obvious that the courts will shortly have to sit on a 24 hour basis if they are to handle all the matters referred to them.

Virtually all legislation passed in this House contains a clause to the effect that matters must be referred to the courts for a decision or for inquiry at a later stage. Obviously there must be a cost factor involved in this procedure. Inspectors appointed by the court will not work for nothing, as has been seen in the last few weeks. I know it is very unfair to criticise the legal profession in the House and I know we all take advantage of the privilege of the House, but I would repeat outside the House what I am saying. The inspectors in this instance were very well paid for their work. I was quite surprised to hear somebody suggest today in the House that they might have charged even more. I am sure that crossed their minds or, if not, it certainly will. With the system as it operates under the Companies Act, the most up-to-date, intricate legislation relating to company law, further difficulty may arise for the people and for this House because while it sets out a regime whereby problems will be solved, the cost of doing so will be enormous.

Even at this late stage perhaps further amendment of the Companies Act is required. Maybe we could write into the legislation clauses which would eliminate the necessity for referral of matters to experts. That would be of benefit to the country in terms of value for money and so on. I do not wish to dwell on this matter, but further instances will arise in the future whereby matters will have to be referred to the courts. The courts, in turn, may appoint a group of experts to make a final decision on the matter, and the people will have to pay for that. We may get a good service, but surely the procedure could be short-circuited by introducing more precise legislation.

I will conclude before I incur the wrath of the legal profession who may encourage somebody to contest the local elections in my constituency. I hope there will not be a repetition of this incident about which we have heard and read so much in the last couple of years. I hope that permanent damage has not been done to the country, particularly to the good name of the business community who legitimately carry out their statutory functions, and that this case will not be held against those people in future.

Wexford): In concluding this debate I would first like to thank the many Deputies from all sides of the House who have contributed today. It was a very orderly and constructive debate. The common theme among all Deputies was that such an incident should not be allowed happen again. I recognise the very valuable contributions from yourself, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and Deputy Barry, both of whom expressed concern with regard to the people outside this House who try to lower the dignity and honour of the Chamber.

I have followed this debate closely in the House and I am glad to have the opportunity to reply. The inspectors' report on the investigations into the affairs of Siúicre Éireann cpt and related companies has been studied by the Government. It is a very thorough report running into 223 pages, and carries 24 conclusions. It is worth recalling some of these conclusions once again. Before doing so, it is only proper to remind the House that the inspectors pointed out that the conclusions were their opinions only and would need final determination by a court of law.

Many of the findings of the report are matters of very serious concern. One of the central issues involved in this affair, one which has been referred to by Deputy Noonan and by a number of other Deputies here today, is the management buy-out (MBO) of the minority shareholding in Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Limited and the subsequent purchase by Siúicre Éireann of this shareholding. There are no detailed conclusions in the report on the various valuations placed on the shareholding. However, it does question whether the normal verification procedures necessary to assess the reliability of the projected figures relating to profitability were ever carried out. It suggests that if these projections had been examined in detail, questions would have been raised about their achievability and accuracy.

Another important issue raised by Deputies is of course the disputed ownership of Talmino. The inspectors conclude that neither Mr. Comerford nor his family have any interest in this company. This is the opposite conclusion to that drawn in Mr. Curran's report arising from his investigation under section 14 of the Companies Act into the ownership of various companies. Mr. Curran expressed the opinion that it was probable that Mr. Comerford was the beneficial owner of Talmino. This is a matter at the centre of the investigation which will have to be definitively established in due course by litigation.

The report is extremely critical of Mr. Comerford and of Sugar Distributors' executives involved in the MBO. It cites many possible breaches of trust, of criminal law, of the Companies Act, cases of fraudulent misrepresentation, forgeries and deception. The report also concludes that following the explanation provided by Mr. Comerford to the board of Greencore on the night of 3 September regarding receipt of moneys from Gladebrook, he should have been dismissed forthwith. In addition, according to the report, it is possible that tax affairs and accounts of subsidiary companies were not in order, and tax liabilities misstated.

All in all, therefore, it must be recognised that the report portrays a very sordid picture of misbehaviour by executives in a State company. Such an extensive list of possibly illegal and questionable actions cannot be ignored and must be followed through. With that in mind, the Minister for Industry and Commerce has submitted the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions. When the Director of Public Prosecutions has examined it, the appropriate proceedings will be taken by him, if such action is warranted.

There are additional ongoing inquiries by the Central Bank and the Revenue Commissioners into certain activities of some related companies of Siúicre Éireann. The Government are determined that any wrongdoings will be identified and that taxpayers' money will be safeguarded.

The cost of the report is a question that has been raised again today by many Deputies, and it is one in which the Government are extremely concerned. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has already dealt with the matter. It is sufficient for me to emphasise that the Government are pursuing in the courts the possibility of recouping the estimated cost of £1.1 million from Greencore and related companies. It is felt that the taxpayer should not have to meet such high costs relating to possible misdemeanours in the company. It is only right that the Government should continue to pursue the recoupment of that money as vigorously as possible as, surely, if these alleged misdemeanours were carried out by executives of the company it is only right that the taxpayers of this country should not have to fork out the costs involved.

A restriction has been imposed on the Talmino loan note of £2.1 million under section 16 of the Companies Act and the settlement of severance terms to Siúicre Éireann executives has also been frozen. These actions demonstrate the seriousness with which the Government are treating this matter and their determination to ensure that taxpayers' money is protected.

Some issues involved, such as ownership of Talmino, payment of severance packages and actions by Greencore to recover damages from executives, can be determined finally only be means of litigation in the courts between the parties involved.

Up to 1980, the Minister for Finance had total responsibility for Siúicre Éireann cpt under the Sugar Manufacture Acts, 1933-1973. In 1980 certain functions were transferred to the Minister for Agriculture and Food under the Sugar Manufacture (Transfer of Departmental Administration and Ministerial Functions) Order, 1980. The main functions transferred related to the appointment of directors to the board, approval of any changes to the memorandum and articles of association of the company, appointment of auditors, and the laying of the annual accounts of the company before each House of the Oireachtas. In general, the Minister for Agriculture and Food exercised these functions in consultation with the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

The alleged misdemeanours which are the subject of the current investigation took place at a time when the responsibility for Siúicre Éireann was held by the Minister for Agriculture and Food. I would like to remind Deputies that neither the Minister for Agriculture and Food nor his Department nor any other Department of State were made aware at any material time of the decisions involved concerning the acquisition of the minority shareholding of Sugar Distributors (Holdings) Limited. This was consistent with normal practice in the semi-State bodies in that semi-State bodies did not consult with or obtain the approval of Government Departments in relation to individual commercial decisions unless there were specific Exchequer or strategic implications.

It is obvious, however, in hindsight, that the system in operation was not adequate and needed strengthening. Accordingly, the then Minister for Finance set up a committee under the chairmanship of the Secretary of his Department to look into the question of establishing a code of ethics for State-sponsored bodies.

As the Minister for Finance said this morning in the House, he has announced a set of guidelines for a written code of business ethics which will require: (1) directors of semi-State companies to make a full disclosure of personal and family interests — such declarations will have to be lodged with the secretary of the company, and cover employments, shareholdings, professional relationships, interests of other family members, and corporations or trusts with which they are associated; (2) that directors should not receive documents where a conflict of interest might arise; (3) each State body to have a written code of conduct for employees giving guidelines on (a) duty to the company, (b) the avoidance of conflict of interest, (c) limits on outside activities, (d) acceptance of gifts and (e) honesty in dealings; (4) that competitive tendering be a normal procedure; (5) that chairpersons should implement Government policy in relation to the remuneration of chief executives, and that the arrangements made cover total remuneration; and (6) that ministerial approval be obtained before subsidiaries are established or acquired.

This tightening of controls and standardising of procedures will, I have no doubt, serve to ensure the efficient management of State bodies in the future and the effective accountability of boards to the appropriate Minister. It must be pointed out, however, that the adoption of these guidelines does not imply any Government dissatisfaction with the large majority of board members and staff members of State bodies, who are dedicated and conscientious in the conduct of their duties.

I must say at this point that the inspector's report was not very critical of the actions of the board in relation to the Greencore affair. It is clear from the report that the board were not fully informed by the former chief executive of all relevant happenings. The report states that the former chief executive should have been dismissed forthwith by the board once revelations about acceptance of moneys from Gladebrook emerged. The board, however, claimed that they acted on the legal advice given to them at the time and they subsequently terminated the services of this company as legal advisers to Greencore.

With the passage through the Oireachtas of the Sugar Act, 1991, Greencore, the holding company for Siúicre Éireann, were set up. Greencore are no longer a State-sponsored body and the role of both the Ministers for Finance and Agriculture and Food in relation to them has changed radically. The Minister for Finance now holds a 30 per cent stake in the shareholding of Greencore, while the board are elected by the shareholders. On that latter point, the shareholders recently re-appointed the board of directors at the annual general meeting of the company. Despite the recent difficulties, the increase in the share value since flotation, from 230p to its current price of 268p, testifies to the commercial viability of the company.

The only, but nevertheless very important, role of the Minister for Agriculture and Food is that he holds one special share which he may not dispose of. This share ensures that the State can effectively exercise certain specified controls over the sugar operations of Greencore, that is, can prevent the disposal of controlling interest in Siúicre Éireann, which is now a subsidiary of Greencore, or the sugar assets, including the Irish Sugar quota, and can prevent a shareholder, or group of shareholders, acting together from gaining control of Greencore plc.

Of course, in relation to sugar, the Minister for Agriculture and Food continues to have responsibility for ensuring the correct application of EC rules dealing with the sugar regime.

The Government earnestly hope that this Greencore affair can be cleared up as soon as possible so that the company can get back to pursuing without distraction their very special role in the Irish agri-business and food sectors. We know that they are capable of achieving great heights, and that they can play an important part in the economy of this country. Greencore at present employ about 2,000 people and had a turnover last year of £326 million. Greencore strive, however, to do better and they must do better.

To this end, Greencore have recruited a new senior management team which will be on the lookout to expand activities, particularly in a European context. With the Single Market almost upon us, the necessity to be competitive and to have a strong and diverse base to their activities, is a must if the company are to survive. The Government are confident that the company now have the management and structure in place for them not only to survive but to expand and prosper. Indeed, I am very happy that the dispute between the beet-growers and the company over the payment for the so-called "ghost" sugar was settled amicably in recent days by the two parties concerned. This is indicative of a company which see the need for good relations with their suppliers in order to move forward and build themselves into a large-scale operation capable of competing with the many big multi-national companies now operating in the EC.

I have no doubt that Greencore have the potential to achieve their ultimate aim, as expressed in their recent annual report, of establishing themselves as one of the premier Irish-based international food companies. The Government wish Greencore every success in their efforts.

I commend this motion to the House.

Is amendment No. 2 being pressed?

Amendment No. 2 not pressed.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes the very strong criticism expressed by the inspectors of the conduct of certain executives of Siúicre Éireann cpt and related companies, especially the former chief executive; expresses puzzlement at the conflict with the Curran Report concerning the central issue of the beneficial ownership of Talmino; regrets the failure of the inspectors to examine more closely the role of the board of Siúicre Éireann and the adequacy of ministerial supervision of the company; welcomes the decision to refer the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions, and expresses outrage at the level of personal fees charged by the inspectors and urges the Government to take steps to ensure that fees for any such future inspections are properly controlled".

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

In accordance with the order of the House, the division in question will take place at 6.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 March 1992.

The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 March 1992.

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