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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Apr 1992

Vol. 418 No. 1

Private Member's Business. - Tallaght (Dublin) New Hospital: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy R. Bruton on Tuesday, 31 March 1992:
"That Dáil Éireann condemns the decision to again postpone the commencement of the Tallaght Regional Teaching Hospital; requests that the Kennedy Group complete the Interm Report on Tallaght Hospital at the earliest possible date; and resolves itself to be of the opinion that the necessary capital should be set aside to commence building work in 1992."
Debate resumed on Amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"welcomes the commitment of the Government to the Tallaght Hospital Project and supports its initiative in commissioning the Dublin Hospital Advisory Group to review and make recommendations on the functions, scope, scale and funding of the proposed Tallaght Hospital."
—(Minister of State at the Department of Health).

When the debate adjourned last night I had referred to the fact that £8.7 million has already been spent on the development of the Tallaght Hospital, going into site preparation, the preparation of detailed drawings, plans and so on. I wish to remind the House that in December 1988 this House debated Tallaght at length in the course of a Private Members' motion moved by the Labour Party, when the House was asked to declare its concern about the microcosm of disadvantage that Tallaght represented and to establish a special programme to address and resolve a range of highlighted problems. I should now like to quote just a few of the contributions of Members of the present Government to that debate.

Minister Flynn, who was Minister for the Environment at the time, in the course of his contribution to that debate, stated at column 471, volume 385, of the Official Report of 6 December 1988:

This Government are committed to the Tallaght Hospital project and approval has recently issued to the board to proceed to Stage 4 of the planning process. It is anticipated that if the present rate of progress is maintined construction work will commence in mid-1990.

We all know what happened. In fact, if the present rate of progress is maintained Tallaght will never get a hospital. Now that Minister Flynn is a senior member of the present Government, I can only express the hope that he will add his voice to the legitimate demands of the people of Tallaght in order to make good on that promise which he made in this House four years ago.

Minister Harney also spoke in that debate. She was, of course, in Opposition then and might not wish to be reminded of some of the things she said. Nevertheless, they are worthy of repetition. At column 774 of the Official Report of 7 December 1988, she said:

As somebody who has sat on both sides of this House in my six years since becoming a Member of Dáil Éireann it seems to me that when people move from the Government side to the Opposition side suddenly they can find the penance for all Tallaght's ills and nothing is impossible. Tallaght, for its size, has never been given any recognition by any Government in this country.

At column 777 the Minister made the further comment — column 777 — and how prophetic it was:

Not until such time as there is at the Cabinet table — and I do not mind who is in power — somebody who represents the area will Tallaght get the kind of resources it deserves.

Speaking specifically about the provision of a hospital, Minister Harney told the Dáil that night that she could think of no more worthy project for Structural Funds than the building of a hospital and other much-needed facilities in Tallaght. She added that if Structural Fund moneys were not available, then the Government should borrow the money — she even specified the bank from which it should be borrowed — and repay it over a period of years.

At column 779 of the Official Report of 7 December 1988, she concluded:

The country is not so badly off that it cannot afford that level of finance. We must have a determination and a commitment to help deprived and disadvantaged areas like Tallaght.

No one could disagree with that sentiment. But the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Harney, has now been in Government for three years, close to the Cabinet table while all that has happened to the hole in the ground that should be the Tallaght Hospital is that the weeds grow higher there by the year. It is no good coming into the House replying to questions saying: I support this project; I am committed to this project; it will be done; it cannot be done now, that kind of response is of no interest or value to the people of Tallaght.

Such promises have been given over the years. I suppose two or three times a year questions have been tabled by myself and other Deputies to the Minister for Health asking: what about it? The reply keeps on being given that the Government are committed to the Tallaght Hospital. But where is it? Where is the beef? Why do the Government not do what the Minister of State, Deputy Harney, told them to do away back in 1988, go out and borrow the money for this worthwhile project? That is much to be advocated when one considers some of the far less deserving or worthwhile projects on which money is spent and has been borrowed over the years. What more worthwhile project than this could there be? The Minister of State, Deputy Harney, gave them the correct advice back in 1988. Why now does she, along with the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Flood, not insist that the money is provided, in some measure, to get the Tallaght Hospital project under way?

The complaint is made that the project will cost £118 million; that was not always so. At the end of 1987 I tabled a parliamentary question to the then Minister for Health and the reply was to the effect that the development of the hospital was to take place on a phased basis, that initial site works were in course of completion, that detailed planning would be completed by the end of 1988 — the first phase of the development having about 450 beds and expected to be completed in 1992-1993. It was said that the estimated cost of that phase was £43 million of thich approximately £3 million had been spent up to that date. Therefore, the then estimate for the hospital of 450 beds was £40 million. Now, because of the delay, it is £118 million. If we do not get on with it now and quickly the £118 million will escalate as time goes on, when the problem will appear even greater. That is why it is of the utmost importance there be no further delay on this project.

Tallaght is entitled to this hospital by reason of its size alone. Comparisons have been drawn with Limerick and other areas. It is the one remaining huge conurbation in this country that does not have the basic, essential facility of a hospital, which is needed nowhere more than in Tallaght. There are so many people living there, women in particular, who suffer grievously as a result of the appalling expense and, in many cases, risk to life involved in having to take one or two buses or other transport into the city to seek hospital treatment in out-patients departments, already overcrowded or to have operations performed for which the waiting lists are already too long.

In 35 years Tallaght has grown from being a village in the foothills of Dublin, with a population then of approximately 400, to a major conurbation, bigger than any other city in this State with the exception of Dublin and Cork. If the people of Cork or Limerick were treated in the manner the people of Tallaght are treated, no Government could survive the outrage. A Cheann Comhairle, you and other Members of this House will recall the uproar and mayhem created here when it was suggested that one of three hospitals in Limerick might be closed, although Limerick has a lesser population than Tallaght, all hell broke loose; yet we cannot get the building and construction of this project under way, promised for so long.

For all too long the people of Tallaght have been patronised, on the one hand and, on the other ignored. This has to stop and stop now. Now is the time we require and must insist on the implementation of the commitment given to the people of Tallaght.

A Cheann Comhairle, I will be sharing the 30 minutes with the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Harney.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

I am very glad of the opportunity afforded me by Deputy Richard Bruton to speak about the proposed Tallaght Hospital. Before responding to a number of specific points raised by Deputies, I should like to place on record my position and that of the Government in relation to this project. First and foremost, we are totally committed to the provision of a hospital in Tallaght at the earliest possible date. Our commitment has never wavered. I can assure the House of that.

I should like to digress for a moment, having listened to Deputy Taylor for whom I have great regard and having been a party colleague of his over so many years. Here I am not trying to score political points but I would say to Deputy Taylor: remember the Tallaght project has been there since 1981; the Tallaght project was there when Deputy Taylor's party were in Government in 1981, and the Tallaght project was there from 1982 to 1987 during which period Deputy Taylor's party were in Government. Deputy Taylor said he had tabled a parliamentary question in 1987 to the then Minister for Health. But he did not ask a parliamentary question during the time his party formed part of the Coalition Government then in power. Rather he tabled the parliamentary question immediately after that Coalition Government went out of office. I can understand that because he himself was not a member of that Government.

The project was proceeding apace at that time.

Have I said anything that is untrue?

The Minister implied that the project was stopped or held up at that time.

I must remind Deputies that this debate is subject to a time limit and interruptions are most unwelcome.

Deputy Taylor himself was not a member of that Coalition Government — I must make that clear — but his party formed part of that Coalition Government. I am not trying to score political points but it is very important to put the matter in perspective. I mean no disrespect to Deputy Taylor; he himself was not a member of the then Government.

I want to be very frank about the availability of funds. The Tallaght Hospital project has been costed at £118 million. I did not cost it; I asked my Department to do so. They made very detailed costings from a number of sources and have come up with this figure. I might add that it will be the single biggest health project ever undertaken in the history of this State. I take the point Deputy Taylor made about what the cost would have been had the project gone ahead earlier but, in real terms, it would not have been considerably less. Deputies Richard Bruton and Taylor gave the impression last evening that all that was needed was £5 million to get the project started. If that was all they wanted, we could get it started for a lot less. Of course, that would be unrealistic and we would merely be dishonest to so claim. In addition it would be irresponsible and, I contend, grossly unfair to the people of Tallaght to commence building not knowing when the balance of the funds would be available to complete the project.

I have great sympathy for the people in the area, people and their families I have known in Drimnagh, Crumlin, Kimmage, Ballyfermot and Walkinstown. I know how long they have awaited this vital amenity, how frustrated they are by the whole process, but I will not send in the bulldozers simply to placate them temporarily or to pretend that things are finally on the move. That would be dishonest. No, when I start this project, I will ensure I have sufficient funds to finish it and finish it quickly. That is the very least the people of Tallaght deserve.

Deputy Richard Bruton's suggestion that we allocate £5 million from this year's health capital budget is too simplistic. If I did not know him better I might even consider that suggestion a little mischievous. I do not think he meant it to be. He knows full well that our capital funds are already totally committed. Perhaps he feels there are hospital projects under way in other parts of the country less deserving that Tallaght. If that be so, I should be glad to hear from him. I have examined the project in every conceivable way, and I wish it were possible.

The Minister is now trying to be mischievous.

Deputy Taylor suggested that a Supplementary Estimate should be introduced to allow the project to commence this year. However, I should like to ask where the balance of £113 million will come from. These figures must be seen in the context of an annual health capital budget of £42 million. To push ahead with the Tallaght project we would need to put a stop to virtually every other hospital development for the next four years. Is that what Deputy Taylor is suggesting? A commitment has already been made to many of these projects and we have no way of stopping them.

Perhaps the Deputy is suggesting that we should borrow more money. Governments have been condemned for overborrowing. It would be irresponsible of us to ever again go down the road of excessive overborrowing. The requirement on the Government is to achieve an Exchequer borrowing requirement of 1.5 per cent in 1993 and to make progress towards the general Government debt targets implicit in our membership of the European Monetary Union. We have a commitment to this Union and we must comply with the demands. This makes the allocation of significantly increased capital resources to the health sector very problematic over the next few years. We need to seek innovative solutions to the Tallaght Hospital funding problem. There are possible options and these must be fully explored. The Dublin Hospital Advisory Group are examining the various possibilities and I look forward with interest to receiving their advice and recommendations in this area.

I have been criticised too in relation to my comments about the size of the proposed hospital. Much of what I have said in this regard has been misrepresented as a scaling down of the hospital. This is clearly not the case. I was very encouraged to hear some of the contributions made last night, particularly Deputy Bruton's contribution, which acknowledged that the changes in hospital practice and the advance in technology mean that we can now cater for the same throughput of patients with significantly fewer beds. I did not invent this theory; it is a result of advancement in medicine. Operations which took many days three to four years ago can now be carried out in one day. Almost 50 per cent of surgical operations can now be done on a one day basis. I did not dream up or lay down any rules. Indeed, the modular system proposed allows for this. I did not step out of line; all I said to them was that they should look at this possibility.

I was not aware that this was already provided for in the drawings for that hospital. I do not wish to dwell on this point any further but I wish to point out for Deputy Taylor's information that the Tallaght Hospital Board now accept that it would be possible to adequately cater for the needs of the area with fewer beds than originally envisaged. It is they who have said this. I did not lay down any laws for them. It would be very wrong of me to do that. I said that they should merely look at the issue. This is their thinking. They were not responding to what I said; they thought of this on their own.

We never heard about this before the Minister arrived on the scene.

What the Deputy says is correct. I am surprised that this point was not mentioned previously. As I said, they thought of this independently of me. The Deputy has my word of honour on this. I merely said that we should look at the issue. When I was checking the drawings this evening I found that they had already come up with this idea. Therefore, my idea was not original. I do not have a monopoly on wisdom.

The Minister has a monopoly on a good deal of it.

The number of beds which should be provided has yet to be determined. There are not hard and fast rules about this issue. This question is being examined in depth by the Dublin Hospital Advisory Group and I look forward to receiving their recommendations on the matter.

The group are also examining the interim arrangements which might be put in place pending the completion of the hospital. I recently discussed this matter with the Tallaght Community Council and the Tallaght Regional Hospital Action Group. Both groups have adopted a very reasonable attitude to this matter and have been very patient. I had discussions with the Meath Hospital about the matter two weeks ago. I explained to both groups that even if the hospital were to start tomorrow it would be five or six years before the first patient could cross the threshold. This is understandably frustrating to the four Deputies from the area. In the meantime I am anxious to do what I can for the people in the Tallaght area, particularly for mothers with young children who are dependent on public transport to get them to hospital. As I previously mentioned in the House, I have also asked the Meath Hospital to consider this matter in association with their colleagues in the Adelaide Hospital and the National Children's Hospital and to let me have their recommendations as a matter of urgency.

When I put this suggestion to them I was told that discussions on this matter had been ongoing for years. As I said, the problem is that the discussions have gone on for too long. I suggested that they come back with a proposal within two weeks. I am awaiting their proposals on the matter. It might be possible to do something in the short term in the area of outpatients, x-rays and blood tests. I will look at the matter sympathetically. The general practitioners in the area, who have a very good knowledge of the problems there, believe that x-rays and blood tests should be available in the initial stages. As I said, I will look at the matter sympathetically so as to give an assurance to the people of the area that the project will go ahead.

I wish to refer to the Adelaide Hospital and their future role in the Tallaght Hospital. I should say at the outset that I have great admiration and respect for the Adelaide Hospital. I have had a long association with that hospital. As a nipper I visited their accident and emergency unit more often than anyone else. I also had associations with the hospital as a student and patient. I completed my final medical examination in the hospital. I know the hospital well and I have great regard for the wonderful consultants working there who have given a great service to the people of the area. The hospital's reputation in the area of patient care has been well earned and richly deserved. Since their foundation over 150 years ago the hospital have been recognised not just in Ireland but internationally for their pioneering work in medicine.

I know that the Protestant community are concerned that the Adelaide Hospital's very distinctive tradition and ethos could be lost or in some way diminished if they are amalgamated with the Meath and the National Childrens' Hospitals and moved to a new location in Tallaght. Indeed, the community at large would regret any such development. One has only to talk to the people of the south inner city to appreciate how highly they value the Adelaide Hospital and how much they appreciate the quality of nursing and medical care which has always been their hallmark. The Adelaide Hospital are renowned for their standards. It is in all our interests to ensure that these standards are not only protected but are nurtured and fostered.

When I suggested that the Adelaide Hospital might wish to remain in Peter Street apparently my motives were misunderstood. All I was saying is that they might consider such a move in order to protect their interests. I also made the point that many hospitals in the inner city had closed down — for example, Sir Patrick Duns Hospital, Mercer's Hospital, Baggot Street Hospital and Steeven's Hospital. There are very few hospitals in the inner city and I put it to them that they might wish to make such a move. Whatever their wishes, they will be facilitated. I think this clarifies the matter. We should see to it that whatever they want is done. They must be given this guarantee. I should like to put it on the record that that is what I was thinking of when I made that suggestion.

I am also mindful of the history and traditions of the Meath and National Childrens's Hospitals, both of which have made a significant contribution to the development of medicine in Ireland. These hospitals have a very special place in the hearts of the people in the south inner city. If these hospitals move to Tallaght a paediatric section will be provided in the hospital. This is part and parcel of the project. As the Minister of State said last night, the challenge facing us is to ensure that all that is rich and valuable in the traditions of the three hospitals is successfully transferred to the new hospital in Tallaght.

The Kennedy group expect to report in six weeks. The Minister of State, Deputy Flood, and I will bring their recommendations to the Government and I think we will get a sympathetic hearing. I should like to assure the people of Tallaght that there is no equivocation or vacillation on our part; they have my assurance in that regard. The Government are fully committed to the Tallaght Hospital project, the Adelaide ethos will be protected and, as soon as the report is available, we will submit it to the Government as a matter of urgency.

I wish to thank the Minister for Health for agreeing to give me some of his time. I congratulate him on his appointment to his position. I am not normally involved in debates on health in this House as I have responsibilities at the Department of the Environment. Therefore, this is the first opportunity I have had in the House to compliment him on his appointment. Other people as well as myself are looking forward to great things from the Minister because, given his medical experience, that he is a Dubliner and has represented for many years in this House areas of huge disadvantage, he is in a unique position to understand the needs of the Tallaght area in relation to hospital services.

Since the debate began there has been too much political squabbling. It does not really matter tonight who did what and when; the fact remains that we do not have a hospital in Tallaght and until such time as resources are allocated we will not have a hospital in Tallaght. Whether it was a Coalition Government of Fine Gael and Labour, a Fianna Fáil Government which we had from 1987 to 1989, or the present Coalition Government does not really matter; what matters is that the allocation of resources will be made so that Tallaght Hospital, which is required, gets under way.

I want to say to Deputy Taylor that I have never made personal remarks in this House in relation to any Deputy's performance. I have always chosen to concentrate on the Government of the day. When Deputy Taylor was a back-bench Member during the term of the two Coalition Governments between 1981 and 1987, I never singled him out for criticism in relation to anything he might have done or said and I do not intend to do so tonight. To have a personalised political squabble in relation to this issue would be the very worst thing we could do. I have not changed my views since 1988. I stand over everything I said then and I will repeat it if Deputy Taylor is interested. It is a fact that when Deputies from the Government benches of this House go to the Opposition, everything suddenly seems possible. A long litany of things is called for. I know political points are often scored, but I do not engage in that kind of politics and I will not do so tonight either.

Unfortunately, since 1980 it has not been possible for the State, or any Government in office during that time, to provide the necessary resources so that Tallaght Hospital could get under way. Up to 1987 a sum of £1.8 million was allocated to the Tallaght Hospital project and since then £6.8 million has been allocated to it. It is only a drop in the ocean and a lot more needs to be done. I want to concentrate tonight on what we might do to provide hospital services in the Tallaght area. I acknowledge, as the Minister of State said last night, as the Minister said tonight and as is generally acknowledged in medical circles everywhere, that we have made enormous advances in medical practice. New technology and microsurgery mean that, thankfully, many cases can be dealt with on a one day basis. I welcome that because having a patient recovering at home with the family is always preferable to staying in hospital. However, in acknowledging that, it should not and must not mean any scaling down. What is required in Tallaght by way of bed compliment is what is needed there and if a specific number of beds is needed to deal with the health cases in the area then that number of beds must be forthcoming.

I am very pleased that the Minister for Health announced his intention to provide interim services in the Tallaght area because we all recognise that even if the Government provided resources in the morning it would take to the end of this decade before the first patient entered Tallaght Hospital. In the meantime we want the kind of intermediate services which would allow many of the individuals who have to travel by public transport to hospitals around the city for physiotherapy, pathology, blood, urine and sputum tests to have them carried out in Tallaght if possible. I hope that following consultation between the three hospitals in the MANCH group it will be possible very soon to provide, as a basic minimum, a physiotherapy centre and a pathology centre in Tallaght. I refer to a physiotherapy centre because people who are immobilised as a result of a fracture or break find it particularly difficult to travel on public transport. The same applies to diabetes patients who may have to have a blood test every year; it takes maybe three hours to travel to and from the hospital for a test which takes about five minutes. Obviously it would make sense to have those facilities in the area. I would also like to think that we could have an X-ray facility although I accept that it is particularly expensive. Nonetheless, I hope we can provide the resources for it.

I understand that the medical school in Trinity College — in not too large a room — have a modern, comprehensive physiotheraphy centre. Even with relatively small resources we could provide such a facility in Tallaght.

In relation to an out-patients casualty service, I would be concerned to ensure that any service would have the proper staff and that it would be more of a staging service so that an ambulance would be on call if difficult serious cases arose. My worry is that if there was a casualty out-patients facility at Tallaght many cases involving serious accident would be taken there where they could not be properly dealt with because operating theatres and so on would not be available. The kind of delay involved in first going to Tallaght, and then going on to the appropriate hospital could have serious implications for the patient. Therefore, I would be concerned that any out-patient facilities provided in Tallaght would have, as a minimum, obviously a casualty officer and the appropriate complement of staff to make sure in particular that cases were dealt with appropriately and that there was always an ambulance on standby to take people to other hospitals if required.

Great tributes were paid during this debate to the Adelaide Hospital and I join in these tributes. I was a patient there some years ago and we could all speak very highly of it. It is often not understood what the significance is of protecting the ethos of the Adelaide Hospital. It was one of the first hospitals in this city to provide, for example, tubal ligation for women on a public patient basis. At present University College Hospital, Galway, Victoria Hospital, Cork and, I think, the Rotunda now provide the service. But until recently it was very difficult, if not impossible, to get this service except in the Adelaide Hospital for a woman who was not in a position to attend a hospital privately.

I now want to turn to funding options. I know that during the last round of the Structural Fund money was not available for health or education related projects except for education in the sense of technical training. Under the Delors II package, which involves a doubling of Structural Funds to the four poorest regions of the Community — Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Greece — health and education matters will be covered. I know that the doubling of the funds to the four poorest regions does not necessarily mean that there will be a doubling of the fund to Ireland. However, if additional funds are available to Ireland, and if health and education are now being included for the first time, I hope the Government will make a strong case for resources to be provided for the building of Tallaght Hospital.

If the development of the Community is about anything and if the whole concept of cohesion funds to bring up the poorer regions to nearer the norm of the wealthier states means anything, areas of great disadvantage and need, like Tallaght, must get resources from the Structural Funds if we are to have a community where everybody has a fair opportunity and access to health and education. This is fundamental.

I know I am probably running out of time but before I finish I would like to comment on the public perception of Tallaght. Deputy Fennell referred to the poor headlines that Tallaght often attracts. This is a fact and it is most regretable. If anything has done much to improve its image it is the experience of the many people who may only have driven through Tallaght in the past but have since come to visit the square. Many people who came to shop or to go to the cinema have been greatly impressed by the facilities there and the kind of place Tallaght is. I represent a great many other areas but I must put on record — and it is unlikely to be challenged — that no other area of my constituency has the same kind of community spirit, the same level of community involvement right across the board, as Tallaght. This is one of the fantastic things about the area. If it was not for the community leaders, the residents groups, the community council and the people involved in all kinds of organisations in Tallaght, it would not be the kind of place that we all feel so proud to represent. It is a great privilege to represent an area in this House, it is a particular privilege to represent an area of great need and disadvantage, an area which is new but has all the challenges and opportunities that go with that. This new area needs and deserves the type of facilities which would allow it to become a town in the real sense.

We now have the facilities at the Square, a variety of fantastic schools, the regional technical college will open this year and what is really needed to complement the development of Tallaght is the new hospital and a proper transport service. I hope to be part of the Government that will start that process in a real sense. I do not wish to be part of a Government that either fuel expectations or make false promises because an election is in the air. That would be doing a great disservice to the people of Tallaght who are in great need and suffer great disadvantage. I do not want to see the types of ceremonies we have had in the past. I did not go to the famous sod turning ceremony because I saw it for what it was, a political PR sham, which it subsequently turned out to be. We want no more of that and this Government will not be a party to any more PR exercises of this kind.

What we need are resources to build a hospital and a firm commitment to the provision of those resources. We really need now, at the beginning of 1992 — and I hope the Minister is in a position to provide this — is an intermediate service that will provide for mothers with young children, or people suffering from broken ankles or back injuries. We need a service in Tallaght, that will alleviate much of the suffering and pain caused by having to travel to the city.

This has been a particularly useful debate and I hope it will be productive. It is in all our interests, whether we are in Government or in Opposition — there are four Deputies for the Tallaght area — to work together for the provision of this hospital. Of course the Government have a unique and special responsibility to come up with the funding for the hospital. That will not be easy, no matter who is in power. In addition to the capital sums required for the provision of the building there is the cost of staffing the hospital on a full-time annual basis. I hope the Government will be in a position, whether through EC funding, from the national Exchequer or from whatever source to provide the resources to allow this hospital to begin in earnest over the next number of years.

With your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, may I share my precious time with Deputies Rabbitte and Lawlor?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I have little time and there will be a great many things that I will not be able to say but it is worth while sharing time if it is only to emphasise the all-party approach to this problem. I thank my colleague, Deputy Richard Bruton, for tabling this motion and giving us the opportunity to discuss it.

I have a constituency interest, of course because my constituency is on the edge of Clondalkin but, even apart from that, anybody looking at the situation in the Tallaght-Clondalkin area would be acutely aware of the need for a new hospital in the area. I am not sure where the catchment boundary area will be, but I assume the sensible thing would be to have the River Liffey as a boundary. If that is the case I will have a greater interest in this matter because not only Clondalkin but Palmerstown and Lucan will be served by this hospital.

Tallaght itself has a minimum population of 70,000 people and approximately 260,000 people live in the catchment area, so we are talking about facilities required by a population of over 300,000. While Tallaght may not like it, my suggestion underlines the fact that it is not just Tallaght that is involved. I dare not suggest that the hospital be called the "Dublin West Hospital", because that would be too parochial, but what about the "South-West Dublin Hospital"? This might receive a certain welcome.

I take this opportunity to record my appreciation of the other major hospital in the area, that is Blanchardstown hospital, which has provided a great service not only to the people of Dublin West but to Dublin people generally. Like others, I welcome the reassurance that has been given in relation to the Adelaide hospital in regard to the preservation and continuation of its distinctive traditions and ethos. That distinctive tradition and ethos must be cherished and encouraged. We are the better for it and long may it be the case. I have a particular example in mind when I think of the Adelaide and its future. From my previous political existence in the other part of this island, I recall the rows, hatred and passion generated over many years in connection with the Mater hospital in Belfast but now they play an extremely important role because a solution was found to their particular problem. They still preserve their ethos and tradition in war-torn Belfast and the two communities are served by that hospital. All are served in a way they find satisfactory. If there is a problem the Minister could do worse than look at the history of the Mater hospital in Belfast and examine the arrangements that were made then and which evolved over the years.

Deputy Harney referred to the public image of Tallaght. I accept that this was a major problem for a considerable period of time. I remember the first time I visited Tallaght I was amazed to find the public image of Tallaght was not the reality. I could not understand why Tallaght had such a bad image in view of what I saw on my first and subsequent visits. However, we have to recognise that Tallaght and Clondalkin are unfortunately areas of deep deprivation and disadvantage and this of course is an additional reason for urgent action. Other places the size of the Tallaght-Clondalkin area would have strong claims — indeed one could say unanswerable claims because of their population — but deprivation and disadvantage are additional reasons for a hospital in the Tallaght-Clondalkin area. Disadvantage, deprivation, ill-health and poverty go hand in hand; one feeds on the other, one is a consequence of the other. That is an additional reason for pressing ahead with the hospital in the Tallaght area. It is unacceptable that the people of Tallaght, Clondalkin and adjoining areas have had to wait so long for their hospital in the same way as they have had to wait for other services such as third level education, shopping facilities, adequate public transport and the other facilities people have a right to expect in this day and age.

I am delighted to have the opportunity this evening of putting forward their claims. Deputy Bruton told us that Fine Gael are pressing for a commitment of money in 1992 to start building. It is not too much to ask that a commitment be given in terms of money because that is the only commitment that matters. I hope, even at this late stage, the Minister will be prepared to give that commitment. There is a great deal of cynicism, disillusionment and lack of faith among the people in the area because of the promises made over the years, irrespective of the political party who made those promises and of the political parties who were in office. The people of Tallaght require more than a promise; they require a strong indication of the determination of the Government to proceed quickly.

We should have sufficient political clout behind this demand. Two Ministers of State are TDs in that constituency, and one of them is in the Department of Health. There is sufficient political clout there to ensure that this hospital project is pushed forward quickly. Certainly, this year there ought to be that determination.

The Minister is aware — I said this privately at the time of his appointment and publicly the other night — that he will either be a great Minister or a disaster; there can be no in between for him. I hope he will be a great Minister and he has the potential to be one. He has the experience to enable him to be a great Minister. I know that is his aim. I suggest he could make a fitting start this evening by making the required commitment to Tallaght. There is much more I could say but I will leave it to my colleagues.

First, I should like to thank Deputy Currie for sharing his time with me. I promise I will allow time for Deputy Lawlor. I compliment Deputy Bruton on giving the House the opportunity again to debate this important issue. The record of the House will show that in my maiden speech I raised the issue of the urgency of the Tallaght regional hospital. With the possible exception of unemployment, it is the most pressing and important issue for the people who elected me in Tallaght, Clondalkin, Walkinstown, Rathcoole, and for the 250,000 people in the surrounding region. In the intervening period I have consistently pressed successive Ministers, Deputies O'Hanlon, O'Rourke and O'Connell to provide the funds to enable the hospital to commence. I would refer Deputies, for example, to my most recent speeches of 5 November, 13 and 19 December 1991. The remarkable thing about the Ministers replies — irrespective of the personality in office — is that the question of funding is missing. Time and again I have been invited to listen to a recitation of the Government's performance elsewhere, their verbal commitment to the Tallaght project and how well they have done in other locations throughout the country but never has there been any provision for the missing link, finance to enable the hospital to start.

I accept when resources are scarce, it is difficult to meet the demand for improved public services. Politics, as far as I am concerned, is about making choices. Time and again in this House we have made choices about the allocation of funds that favour the better off sections in the community to the neglect of people in less well off areas of our society. We pay lip service to equality and to a commitment to a fairer society. Yet resources are frequently transmitted to the powerful and the rich in our society or to the better off areas while new less well off areas struggling to become established are neglected.

Thus we have in the case referred to by Deputy Currie, a super rapid transport system serving the better off areas of south Dublin. We have no such service in west Dublin. Similarly in regard to education, the higher education grants system is specifically structured to assist the children of large families while children of the average PAYE earner in my constituency and that of Deputies Lawlor and Currie are assessed for higher education eligibility on a different basis. Access to hospital care is to be more expensive and more difficult for those living in Tallaght or Clondalkin than for those living in Clonskeagh or Clontarf.

As regards the Tallaght regional hospital, therefore, the Government have to make a choice. When the former Minister for Health, Deputy O'Rourke, asked me during the course of the debate on her Health Estimate on 13 December where I proposed she would find the £6 million to enable hospital construction to commence in 1992, I reminded her that she managed to find £6 million with amazing alacrity when a site for a business school had to be taken off the hands of a well known developer at Carysfort. The point I am making is that when the political will is there the money can be found. The question for the Minister tonight is whether he has the political will to build the Tallaght hospital. In my view he is politically committed to it. As Deputy Currie said, I cannot believe the Minister has forgotten all his training and the thoughts he has put on the record in the past about the necessity to deliver good quality patient and hospital care to deprived communities. Unfortunately, we do not have any yardstick by which to measure his ability to deliver at Cabinet level. It is on that issue, as Deputy Currie said, that he will stand or fall in realising his potential after all the years he sought this office. One thing he can do that will have him remembered as Minister for Health is to enable construction of the Tallaght regional hospital to commence.

We might even call it after him.

Not just yet.

I have no objection to calling it the Dr. John O'Connell Memorial Hospital after he passes on. The Minister has an additional reason. Many of the people organising the careful protests in my constituency about the project are prominent members of the Fianna Fáil Party. Even if they are a little less assertive than they might be if we had a Labour/Fine Gael Government their involvement is compelling evidence of the widespread support and demand throughout the community for this hospital. Therefore, the Minister has a powerful political reason, as well as a social and regional one, to enable work on the hospital to commence. I am reluctant to believe he has forgotten his own background. The point Deputy Currie made concerning the Adelaide encompasses all I would want to say about that hospital. Last night, according to the unrevised version of the Official Report, I said the Minister had said he thought it a good idea if the Adelaide stayed where they were. The Minister of State, Deputy Flood, replied: "That is not true." It is true and I want to read what the Minister said last Thursday in reply to a parliamentary question concerning the Adelaide. He said:

I did suggest to the Adelaide Hospital — and I am not laying down laws — that they might consider remaining where they were providing a vital medical service in the inner city.

I do not accept that a Minister for Health drops the suggestion that the Adelaide stay where they are as if he was some backbencher. I imagine that were I on the board of the Adelaide and the Minister suggested to me that I should stay where I was, I would take a very definite meaning from that. I think the Minister should have a word with his Minister of State and get his act together in relation to this matter because we cannot have the feeble effort that was made last night by the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, who suggested that maybe they will stay where they are and maybe they will not.

It is a matter of choice.

Why should it be a matter of choice?

Perhaps the Deputy wants to dictate to them.

Every Deputy in this House believed that the Adelaide would form part of the new regional hospital and it was only last Thursday when the Minister answered that parliamentary question that we learned that the Adelaide is likely to be left where it is.

Perhaps the Deputy wants to dictate to them.

If Deputy Lawlor is to be allowed make a contribution I had better bring my remarks to a close, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but let me refer to a second aspect——

I am happy to tell the Deputy, in harmony with the generous spirit prevailing, that Deputy Richard Bruton is conceding two or three minutes of his time. The Deputy has one minute remaining.

In that case, I can elaborate with a little more reflection on what Deputy Flood had to say to us last night——

Minister of State, Deputy Flood.

Perhaps you should not have interfered, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

He has opened the floods.

The inherent wisdom of scaling down the hospital is recognised immediately by the Ministers of State, Deputy Harney and Deputy Flood, but I am not an expert and there may well be some argument in favour of it because there have been changes and developments in medicine. Many people in the public gallery may not appreciate this but if the Minister makes a start this year on a 450-bed hospital in Tallaght my party will not oppose him. However I would like to know why he was at some pains tonight to tell us that this was not just his idea, that it was the board who came up with the idea independently and that they have been thinking along those lines. Why were we not told about this before now? Why did the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, start rhyming off on the Adjournment Debate the figure of £118 million as the mountain that had to be scaled in relation to a 750-bed hospital?

No, Deputy——

If this was not the Minister's idea and it has been around for a long time why were we not told about it before now?

It will cost £118 million to build a 450-bed hospital.

No, not in the Minister's wildest dreams. It will cost £118 million to build a 650-bed hospital.

A 750-bed hospital.

Surely, if there is a module——

I am sorry, Deputy, but you have gone too far on your second wind and time is running out.

In his statement on Thursday the Minister said the following in dealing with the question of financing:

I suggested to David Kennedy that he might come back to me with some proposals for alternative methods of funding by the end of April. I also met financiers from the States who had indicated an interest in the project. They seemed enthusiastic and I suggested that they meet the chairman of the Tallaght Hospital Board.

Is it not about time that the Minister told us what is meant by "alternative methods of funding"?

It is about time that you finished, Deputy.

Surely, he can tell the House what the American financiers were so enthusiastic about and what implications private funding will have in relation to the delivery of and access to patient care in Tallaght because we do not want a hospital that is funds-driven and is hungry for private patients at the expense of public patients who will be treated as second class citizens.

It will be a public hospital and we will not print the money.

I appreciate that I am using up some of Deputy Bruton's time and hope that I will be able, from the back benches on the Government side of the House, to echo some of the views that my colleagues in the Opposition would like to express. This debate reminds me of the great arguments which took place in the House in regard to the provision of a town centre and a third level college in Tallaght. There was a need for decisive and dramatic action and all the politicians who represented Tallaght and the surrounding areas cooperated with each other. Construction on the town centre went ahead when tax incentives were provided and after great pressure had been exerted a third level college was provided. All that remains to be provided is a hospital.

To be fair to the strategic planners, from 1972 onwards, they drew up a cohesive plan but they have been criticised ever since for failing to complete the satellite towns. Deputy Currie and I represent two of those satellite towns, Tallaght being the third. I echo the points made by Deputy Currie in regard to the Tallaght Hospital. It will also be the hospital of those living in the greater Clondalkin-Lucan area. It will be a regional hospital to serve a population of close on 300,000 people.

Despite the need to find innovative solutions to the problem of funding, as mentioned by the Minister in his speech, and regardless of how many reports are necessary from advisory groups or the Kennedy review group, I sincerely hope that the Minister will bring pressure to bear — I have full confidence in both him and his colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Flood — to ensure that real progress is made in the provision of a regional hospital at the Tallaght site. To echo the point made by Deputy Rabbitte it is essential, if a scaled down version is provided, having regard to advances made in medicine, that proper out-patients facilities are provided, to complement the services to be provided for the north Clondalkin area at the Tallaght hospital.

Those of us who represent areas which have been newly created have a responsibility to those areas. As Deputy Rabbitte said, various projects have been proceeded with in areas which are already well healed and adequately served with regard to transport and other facilities. Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown are new towns which have been built on green field sites and, unfortunately, it is taking us far too long to catch up and to provide the basic facilities which are accepted as the norm in other parts of the country. Because of budgetary constraints, we have to argue our case far more vigorously with consecutive Governments.

I should also put it on the record that there is a task force whose function is to consider the difficulties which have arisen in urban areas. Therefore in order to meet the demands of these areas and to tackle the difficulties which are beginning to be highlighted it is essential that a major regional hospital be provided. Therefore I vigorously support the calls which have been made to the Minister to place high on his agenda at Cabinet the question of providing funds to complete the Tallaght Regional Hospital.

Let me, again, thank Deputy Bruton for his cooperation.

I was very pleased to allow other Deputies to contribute to this debate as this issue is the source of concern for everyone with an interest in Dublin. So far as anyone who has represented Dublin is concerned, it is a scandal that while we have developed the outer suburbs we have left them denuded of basic facilities. That point has been made very eloquently on all sides of the House.

We have to recognise the long history of delays in relation to this project. As the House is aware, the Tallaght Hospital board were appointed in 1980 while the brief was completed in 1983. The architects' competition was held in 1984 and an architect was appointed in 1985. Detailed design plans were completed at the end of 1987 and it should be said that there were no delays on the part of the Coalition Government at any stage during the process. The project was ready to go to tender in November 1990 but then it ground to a depressing halt.

During the course of the general election campaign Fianna Fáil gave a firm commitment that the project would start in 1990. Indeed, they accelerated the process to bring the project to the detailed final planning stage but once the dust had settled following the election fever the project was left languishing. We therefore have to look with a jaundiced eye on their latest proposal to reappoint the Kennedy review group to reconsider the functions, scale and funding of the project.

I say this advisedly because the Kennedy review group produced excellent recommendations on organisational structures for the Dublin region. They proposed that in south-west Dublin a hospital providing comprehensive care should be built in south-west Dublin. It would not leave the Adelaide Hospital behind as the Minister suggested in this debate. It would be the focus of developing integration between the primary GP care and the community care services in situ, close to the people it was designed to serve. The Minister and his predecessors knew that that was the whole basis of Kennedy and yet they engaged in the sham of asking Kennedy to look again at something he spent years studying, coming up with a blueprint for the Tallaght area and the other five regions. They asked Kennedy to look again at the functions of the Tallaght Hospital when he had spelt out in elaborate detail that its core function was to provide comprehensive care, not lacking any of the specialities, for the people of Dublin South West.

The Minister is reintroducing a red herring when speaking again here tonight about the issue of scale of hospital as something that needed very careful review. When this project was originally drafted the idea was for a 600 bed unit; but it was always to be in phases, with phase one being for 450 beds. In the middle of 1990 the Minister's predecessor agreed to the idea that the three phases should be brought together to make this a 600 bed unit that would cost the £118 million to which the Minister's predecessor so often referred in the House. That was not the thinking of the Tallaght Hospital board captured in time and oblivious to the changes in trends in hospital care. The Tallaght Hospital board knew better than we did how hospital care had been developing and how day care rather than long term stay care has become a feature of modern hospital care. It was they who redesigned their needs and they are completely agreed that the 600 bed unit is not a priority now. We did not need Kennedy to come up with that. The Tallaght Hospital board knew it and I am glad that tonight the Minister has finally accepted that. That at least is some progress. Neither the functions nor the scale of the hospital were issues for Kennedy to review. We knew of the most modern thinking on those issues before this committee was appointed.

The remaining issue was funding. I am sad that there seems to be no hope of imaginative thinking in the two ministerial heads across the floor. We know a lot of the facts even without having a committee. We know that leasing will be dearer for the taxpayer in the long run than funding by State borrowing, and any suggestion that we can make this cheaper is wrong. We know that EC Structural Funds, to which the Minister, Deputy Harney, rightly referred as offering some opportunity for us, come to us through the Minister and not through the Kennedy Committee. That will come to us through the Minister's ability to use the Maastricht Treaty to get support from our EC partners for care, particularly care in a deprived part of the city. I do not have time to go through the Maastricht Treaty as it refers to health, but there is obviously hope in this Treaty. But it is not the Kennedy group that will bring those funds home to us; it is the Minister across the Chamber. Funding for an organisation like the VHI comes through the Minister and not through the Kennedy group. If new imaginative sources of funding are to be provided out of private funds to finance a privately managed hospital, it will not be the hospital we want to see, and I am glad that the Minister has agreed that that is not the sort of hospital we want to see for the people of Tallaght and the surrounding areas of Dublin South-West, Wicklow and Kildare. The only message that came across from the two ministerial speeches last night and tonight was that none of the £42 million to be spent this year on hospital projects will be devoted to Tallaght. Money will not be set aside to start this project in 1992.

The suggestion by the Minister of State last night, and re-echoed by the Minister tonight, that as soon as the Kennedy report is completed it will be on the Cabinet table is a hollow promise when the Minister admits that he will not allocate a brass farthing to the project from his £42 million budget this year. It is clear from reading the two speeches that neither Minister is willing to make a commitment in future and that it is not just 1992 that they have reneged on in respect of Tallaght.

The Minister in his speech referring to the cost of the project said that these figures must be seen in the context of an annual health capital budget of £42 million and that to push ahead with Tallaght we would need to put a stop to virtually every other hospial development in the country for the next four years. That is not an honest approach to presenting the facts on the Tallaght project. We know that the cost of the Tallaght project, on the basis of the scaled down version with 450 beds and having spent a good deal on site development already, is in the region of £80 million to £85 million to be spent over the six year period the Minister and the Minister of State repeatedly told us about. That works out at £14 million per year out of the capital budget. Last year Ardkeen Hospital in Waterford, catering for a much smaller catchment area, got more then £14 million from the Minister's capital budget.

This is not just a question of funding; it is a question of political will. There is a Minister in the Government today who gave up the Whip in order to preserve the third hospital in the city of Limerick. We have two Ministers in this Government and we have not been able to see a start for this hospital 12 years on. I would ask the House to recall that since 1986 when the sod was turned on the hospital site, £350 million has been spent by this Government on hospital projects and none of it was for the Tallaght Hospital.

At the beginning of last year the Programme for Economic and Social Progress made specific commitments in the health area to be financed over seven years. These commitments amounted in total to a commitment of £450 million to be spent on health, but there was no money to start the Tallaght project. Tallaght was not even mentioned in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. When one looks at the health priorities that face us as a community it is unbelieveable that for Tallaght, an area inhabited by 260,000 people for whom there is no hospital despite recommendations in many reports dating back to 1968, the Government could not bring themselves in their programme for the next seven years to include a reference to their commitment to the Tallaght project and to set aside some money to get it off the ground.

Will the Minister look again at his attitude to this and not be taken in by the responses we have had from so many of his predecessors year in year out on this issue? The Minister has come to the Department of Health with a reputation for concern and is known to be a Minister who has represented some of the most deprived communities in our city, to be a man who has provided good care for people in his own area as a doctor and as a Deputy. Will the Minister look again at the priority he and the Government are willing to give the community in South-West Dublin many of whom rank among the most deprived sections of our community? They are afflicted with high unemployment, low incomes and poor health. The figures are there for the Minister if he wishes to study them. There are clear links between deprivation and poor health.

It should be a Government priority to provide funds for Tallaght Hospital. I hope the Minister will think again in regard to the attitude he has shown in the course of this debate and that Tallaght will come back to the top of his list and will figure in the ten-point plan which we are so eagerly awaiting.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 63.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 61.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn