Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. a6 on the Supplementary Order Paper and No.1.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: 1. The debate on No. a6 shall not exceed two hours and the following provisions shall apply in relation to the debate: (i) The speeches of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrats Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) The speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed five minutes; (iii) The Tánaiste shall be called on to reply not less than 20 minutes before the debate is due to conclude. 2. There shall be no Private Members' Business this week.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two matters to be put to the House. First, are the proposals for dealing with item No. a6 — motion re. Northern Ireland — agreed to?

Mr. J. Bruton

No, Sir. My view is that this debate is too short, that if we are going to have a debate on Northern Ireland — and it now appears it is going to be a substantive debate with a motion and with amendments to that motion — the subject is too serious to be dealt with in this impromptu fashion. I was willing to agree to a short series of statements that would involve expressions of sympathy and general statements of view. I do not think the House should place itself in a position in which we will have a debate with competing amendments being tabled by different quarters of the House, at short notice, when none of us will have had an apportunity to look at amendments tabled by others, in view of the very great seriousness of the situation in Northern Ireland.

As the House will be aware, I have been pressing the Government for some time to have a debate on this subject. I am sorry that the debate did not occur before the recent atrocities. It is a pity that we appear to be reacting to atrocities rather then seeking to shape events. If we are to have a debate, it should be properly prepared, especially if it is to be based on a substantive motion when there will be the potential for disagreement, rather than our seeing the motion at 12 o'clock today. There is also an amendment and we must decide whether we will vote on it.

Miss Harney

My party, like at least one other party, was not consulted last evening about this procedure. In fact I learned of it on the 12 noon news headlines today. Had we been consulted I would have made it perfectly clear that we cannot have a meaningful debate on this issue. I am quite happy to have short statements of condemnation. My party Whip has already so indicated. We also wish to proceed with the motion of no confidence in the Government. For that reason I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. If you will allow me, Sir, I will now read that amendment as follows:

That the debate on item No. a6 shall not exceed one hour 15 minutes; that the speeches of the main spokespersons shall not exceed 15 minutes; that the Tánaiste shall be called upon to reply not less than 15 minutes before the debate is due to conclude; that the Dáil should then proceed to consider the Motion of no confidence, item No. 19.11, in the names of Deputies John Bruton, Rabbitte and myself and that the House shall sit not later than 10 p.m.

The Taoiseach

I have a difficulty because, in ordering the business of the House, I have to endeavour to get agreement between all sides. In the absence of agreement between all sides the Government is left in the position where it must endeavour to go along with the majority of the views opposite. That is why we went along with the motion tabled. However, in deference to the views of the House, I do not have a problem in not having a motion down if there is serious disagreement about that. I have no desire to divide the House on that issue. We can substitute statements for the motion and carry on on that basis if that is what the majority of the Members opposite want.

Mr. J. Bruton

I would be willing to accept that. It is better, if we are going to draft a substantive motion, that we take time to do so. We should have a motion which is properly prepared. It should not be debated until we have had a chance to prepare it properly. However, may I suggest that we allow the debate, including statements, to continue until 8.30 p.m.? I am sure many Members of the House would wish to contribute in a constructive fashion and it should not be confined merely to prepared statements on the part of party Leaders. I hope the House will agree to extend the debate somewhat to allow more Members to contribute.

Miss Harney

I am happy with the Taoiseach's suggestion that we should have statements only. I am not happy that we should have a four-hour statement session, which I believe would be unhelpful. The Taoiseach said last week that it would be unhelpful even to have a private briefing with Leaders of the Opposition. This subject is much too important not be be helpful. Therefore, I suggest that we accept the Taoiseach's proposal of short statements and then proceed to discuss the motion of no confidence.

The Taoiseach

I am in a difficulty here. As far as I am aware, the proposal to continue the debate on Northern Ireland until 8.30 p.m. apparently is supported by one party. As I understand the position, the proposal on the part of the Technical Group is to have a substantial debate on Northern Ireland today and defer the motion of no confidence until next week, if necessary, while the Progressive Democrats want statements on Northern Ireland followed immediately by the motion of no confidence this evening and tomorrow. I am trying to keep the House together on a particular issue by having statements which could be over in a couple of hours. We could then proceed to the ordinary business of the electoral motion and have the confidence debate tomorrow, if that is satisfactory to the other side of the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Taoiseach's proposal agreed to?

Miss Harney

It would be very unreal to discuss the Government's legislative programme when there is a no confidence motion hanging over the Government. At Question Time the Taoiseach said that some people were running away from the confidence motion. The Progressive Democrats are not running away from the confidence motion and we want to have it today.

The Taoiseach

There are three parties opposite and I have to try to interpret what the majority want. I do not think the majority are in agreement with the proposal put forward by Deputy Harney. That is my best interpretation of what is happening now.

Mr. M. McDowell

Why do we hear about it in the news?

Mr. Currie

I wish to raise a point of clarification. I understood that the proposal was that the party Leaders would take 20 minutes each to be followed by the Tánaiste who would take 20 minutes, which would leave five minutes for each of four participants. This effectively would rule out people like me. It would seem this is showing much less urgency than this drastic situation demands. There are a number of us who feel we have something to contribute to this debate and we would like to do so. I have fears about the direction being taken at present.

Mr. Harte

I concur with Deputy Currie. I too would like to have an input to this debate. We are confronted with a threatening challenge. There should be no curtailment on speeches. All Deputies in the House who have a contribution to make should be allowed do so. I would not welcome anything less.

Mr. J. Bruton

I should like to say to the Taoiseach and to the other parties who have reservations about allowing anyone but party leaders to speak in this debate that there were no such restrictions when this matter was debated in Westminster, where there was a reasonably lengthy debate. This House should not indicate that it has less interest in this subject than that expressed in Westminster by having a less extensive debate.

Mr. Rabbitte

As I understand it, the Government is not offering this debate by way of response to requests that have been made in the House for a debate on Northern Ireland but rather as a response to the atrocities of the weekend. Like Deputy Bruton, I believe Members of the House, other than the party Leaders, ought to be given an opportunity to contribute. It may even be unseemly for us to proceed with the motion of no confidence immediately after that debate. If that means reverting to the Government's programme of legislation, that is what we ought to do. I agree with the proposal that the debate on Northern Ireland should be extended to 8.30 p.m.

Mr. E. Kenny

I am happy to accept the Taoiseach's proposal that we should proceed by way of statements. Our proposal and preference is that these statements should continue until 8.30 p.m. It would be grossly insensitive to deal with a motion of confidence following statements on the atrocities in Northern Ireland. The Taoiseach is not correct in saying that the Opposition is running from the vote of confidence. This motion is being taken today because it cannot be taken any other day this week owing to the summit conference on Friday. I would point out that we have also made proposals to the Government regarding special arrangements for the Tánaiste to speak at an earlier time on the vote of confidence tomorrow, to extend sitting hours tomorrow and have the vote on the issue of confidence tomorrow evening.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is only one proposal before the House, that is the Taoiseach's proposal on item a6. In the absence of agreement the Chair has no option but to put it to the House, unless it is withdrawn by the Taoiseach.

Miss Harney

On a point of order, I moved an amendment to the Order of Business.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That amendment would not be in order in that we are talking about the Order of Business. It is the Taoiseach's prerogative to bring the Order of Business before the House.

Mr. Flanagan

This is a new device being introduced here on a weekly basis.

The Taoiseach

As I understand it the majority on the other side want the debate on Northern Ireland extended to 8.30 p.m. to comprise of statements rather than the motion and the amendment tabled. Extending statements to 8.30 p.m. is stretching it to the limit without having a proper debate. However, if that is what the House wants——

Mr. Harte

On a point of order——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Taoiseach

I suggest to the House that rather than confine statements to five minutes Deputies be allowed ten minutes each in the event of the debate continuing until 8.30 p.m. The reason for allowing 20 minutes for the main spokespersons and five minutes for each other Member called on was that it was thought it would command agreement across the floor and accommodate the debate concluding at 6 p.m. If the House wishes to extend the time to 8.30 p.m. so be it, if it will command support. Certainly, it is not an issue I want to push to a vote in this House.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I want to do everything I can to ensure the vast majority agree, but if some other party decide to go against the proposal I cannot help that. I am prepared to accommodate the House in so far as I can.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is it agreed that the time for statements be extended to 8.30 p.m.?

Mr. J. Bruton

Yes, Sir.

Miss Harney

I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I do not wish to divide the House on Northern Ireland. I am pleased that there will not be a division on that issue but I am not happy with the procedure. There is a secret deal between the Unionists and the Conservative Government involving Mr. John Hume and Mr. Gerry Adams. I do not know what is involved. I do not think we can have a meaningful debate this evening. We are being quite cynical about all this. I am sorry I have to call a vote on this matter.

Question put: "That the proposals by the Taoiseach relating to statements on Northern Ireland be agreed to".

The Dáil divided: Tá, 89; Níl, 10.

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.
Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.
Ahern, Noel.
Andrews, David.
Aylward, Liam.
Bhreathnach, Niamh.
Bree, Declan.
Brennan, Matt.
Brennan, Séamus.
Briscoe, Ben.
Dempsey, Noel.
Doherty, Seán.
Ferris, Michael.
Fitzgerald, Brian.
Fitzgerald, Eithne.
Fitzgerald, Liam.
Flood, Chris.
Foley, Denis.
Foxe, Tom.
Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
Gallagher, Pat.
Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
Haughey, Seán.
Higgins, Michael D.
Howlin, Brendan.
Hughes, Séamus.
Hyland, Liam.
Jacob, Joe.
Kavanagh, Liam.
Kemmy, Jim.
Kenneally, Brendan.
Kenny, Seán.
Killeen, Tony.
Kirk, Séamus.
Kitt, Michael P.
Kitt, Tom.
Lawlor, Liam.
Lenihan, Brian.
Leonard, Jimmy.
Martin, Micheál.
McCreevy, Charlie.
McDaid, James.
McDowell, Derek.
Broughan, Tommy.
Browne, John (Wexford).
Burke, Raphael P.
Burton, Joan.
Byrne, Hugh.
Callely, Ivor.
Connolly, Ger.
Costello, Joe.
Coughlan, Mary.
Cowen, Brian.
Davern, Noel.
Moffatt, Tom.
Morley, P.J.
Moynihan, Donal.
Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
Mulvihill, John.
Nolan, M.J.
Ó Cuív, Éamon.
O'Dea, Willie.
O'Donoghue, John.
O'Hanlon, Rory.
O'Keeffe, Batt.
O'Keeffe, Ned.
O'Leary, John.
O'Rourke, Mary.
O'Shea, Brian.
O'Sullivan, Gerry.
O'Sullivan, Today.
Pattison, Séamus.
Penrose, William.
Power, Seán.
Quinn, Ruairí.
Reynolds, Albert.
Ryan, Eoin.
Ryan, Seán.
Shortall, Róisín.
Smith, Brendan.
Smith, Michael.
Spring, Dick.
Stagg, Emmet.
Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Dan.
Wallace, Mary.
Walsh, Joe.
Woods, Michael.

Níl

Clohessy, Peadar.
Cox, Pat.
Cullen, Martin.
Harney, Mary.
Keogh, Helen.
McDowell, Michael.
Molloy, Robert.
O'Donnell, Liz.
O'Malley, Desmond J.
Quill, Máirín.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies Keogh and O'Donnell.

Question declared carried.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Oct 1993