Proinsias De Rossa
Ceist:3 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if it is intended that his meeting with the British Prime Minister, Mr. John Major, will proceed as planned on 3 December 1993; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Meeting with British Prime Minister.
Jim O'Keeffe
Ceist:4 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Taoiseach whether a date for his meeting with UK Prime Minister, Mr. John Major, has yet been agreed.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 and 4 together.
The position with regard to the date of the next meeting between the British Prime Minister and myself remains as set out by me in this House on Wednesday last. As I indicated then, the date will be confirmed simultaneously in Dublin and London closer to the time of the meeting.
I should say, first, that I was surprised that Questions Nos. 2, 3 and 4 were not taken together. May I suggest to the Taoiseach that it might be helpful if he were to indicate to the House whether there is any truth in the allegations made on the "Panorama" programme last night that there were contacts between the Government and the IRA given that the British Government has published details on the range of contacts it has had with the IRA and that therefore everybody would approach a summit with their cards on the table? I have not asked the Taoiseach to comment one way or the other on the revelations yesterday in Westminister but the House is entitled to know if the Government was aware of those contacts and the extent of them and if it was briefed on those developments.
I do not know what the Deputy is getting at in stating that he is surprised that Questions Nos. 3 and 4 are being taken together as it is quite clear both relate to the summit that is due to take place between the British Prime Minister and myself.
I was referring to Questions Nos. 2, 3 and 4.
Question No. 2 has not been combined with Questions Nos. 3 and 4 and I answered it separately. Questions Nos. 3 and 4 are being taken together.
I know the reason they are not being taken together.
I do not understand the point the Deputy is trying to make.
Please, let us not waste precious time.
I did not come in here yesterday.
I have already made it clear on a number of occasions in this House that I do not propose to comment on every television programme or newspaper report on any particular aspect and I have no intention of doing so now. Let me repeat what I said on a number of occasions in this House. I have made it clear that I have never met the IRA or Sinn Fein. I have also made it clear that there is a wide range of people who in one way or another make an input either to me or my Department. They may come to see me, write to me or contact me and I gather all the information that they have. They know of any shifts of opinion in both communities and from this I have to make a final evaluation. It is my evaluation that there is an opportunity for peace and it is up to all of us to exercise our judgment; to be calm, courageous and, indeed, clear in our thinking.
Let us not be deflected down alleyways or culs de sac. The positive objective is peace and, with the full support of the Government, I will continue my efforts in that regard.
The Taoiseach can be assured that the objective he has outlined is fully shared by all the Members of this House. We hope this process will be successful.
There are some things I would like him to clarify. Has the Taoiseach authorised contact, discussions, negotiations or otherwise with the Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin? It would be as well for us to know the full facts. Is it a fact that the Irish Government is awaiting a response from the UK Government to a proposal and for how long? Will this affect the date of the summit meeting with Mr. Major? What is the Taoiseach's attitude to the proposal to establish a select committee on Northern Ireland at Westminster? Last, and perhaps most important, does the Taoiseach now really believe that Sinn Féin and the Provisional IRA are genuinely seeking political progress by peaceful and democratic means alone?
As to the last question, it is an evaluation that one must make. I have made my evaluation clear. I believe there is an opportunity for peace and that it is incumbent on all of us to test it and make sure that we seek every possible opportunity to bring about peace and a permanent cessation of violence. That is what the people of this country want and it is the biggest single thing we could achieve for this country.
In regard to business in the House of Commons, we will leave that to the House of Commons. It is not for me to get involved in their business.
On the third part of the question, I want to repeat that since I became Taoiseach I have made it abundantly clear, not alone to people in this House but to my Department and everybody else, that I am set on a path to try to find a different way forward after 25 years of violence. I made it clear to anybody who wanted to talk to me about it that my door was open; I have operated an open door policy and I cannot see how anybody could object to that. I have also said clearly in this House that I have upheld the policy of successive Governments on the question of talking to the IRA and Sinn Féin, that if they gave up their violence there would be a seat at the conference table for them.
Let us be brutally honest about this. Is Deputy O'Keeffe or anybody in this House suggesting that I should not talk to Mr. John Hume while he is, as everybody in the world knows, carrying on discussions and conversations with the IRA? I do not believe that is the position and consequently we should not go into any more detail. People are coming down here week after week genuinely trying to make a contribution to finding a formula for peace. I am not prepared to endanger their lives, and I am certainly not going to betray the confidence they have placed in me in continuing my initiative to try to find a formula for peace. It is a sensitive and difficult area. Let us be honest with ourselves; we want peace and we are going to try to get it.
There is unity in this House on the question of pursuing peace. There is no doubt whatever about that. However, we have a responsibility in this House to clarify what precisely the Government is at when it is pursuing that objective. I very much welcome the apparent realisation by the IRA that their campaign has been futile and we would all call on them today to stop their campaign of murdering members of the security forces and, indeed, on the Loyalists to stop murdering Catholics.
The Taoiseach did not reply to my earlier question when he said he has not met members of the IRA or of Sinn Féin. Has he relayed messages to the IRA through departmental officials or community leaders in relation to the conditions for participation by the IRA or Sinn Féin in talks? Can he confirm that both the Irish and British Governments are at one in insisting that the only way the IRA or Sinn Féin can become involved in the talks process is on the basis of a full cessation of violence, and that no other conditions will be met in order for them to call off their campaign?
I have already made it clear on a number of occasions, and I repeat it today, that there will be a seat at the conference table for democratically elected people when they renounce violence and when we are satisfied that there is a genuine cessation of violence. That has been my position and it has also been the position of the British Prime Minister.
In regard to the contacts I have, I maintain a wide range of contacts with community leaders, churchmen, church leaders, social workers, housewives, bank managers, sporting organisations etc. as I do with the SDLP and with Mr. John Hume in particular. Mr. Hume and I have been working together for at least 18 months, perhaps two years, to try to advance this matter. I believe everybody would want me to continue that and I intend to do so.
I have said time and again that we want to see not alone a cease-fire but a permanent cessation of violence, a turning away from the violence that has destroyed two communities in the North and back towards the peace process and the talks process. If we get a cessation of violence the talks process, which unfortunately is not ready to restart yet, will have a better opportunity of making progress than it would otherwise have. I have upheld and will continue to uphold the policies of previous Governments on talking to paramilitaries and the conditions on which they can join the talks process around the conference table.
On 29 June in the House the Taoiseach stated that any contact with representatives of Sinn Féin would be conditional on a definitive rejection of violence by that organisation as a means of achieving political objectives. Can the Taoiseach confirm that that remains Government policy and that he has authorised no departure from that policy of no contact without a definitive rejection of violence?
My policy and the policy of the Government remains that there will be no seat at the conference table until there is a definitive rejection of violence, until we are satisfied that there has been a real cessation of violence and not just a temporary cease-fire to get to the table. That could not be clearer.
My question was if it remains Government policy that there will be no contact with representatives of Sinn Féin without a rejection of violence by them. The word "contact" is the word the Taoiseach used on 29 June. I am asking the Taoiseach if that remains his policy.
Does Deputy Bruton mean by that——
I mean what you said.
Does Deputy Bruton mean that I should no longer make any contact with Mr. John Hume because he has been talking to the IRA? Is that really what the Deputy wants? As far as I am concerned, Mr. Hume is a constitutional politician and a member of the House of Commons——
That is not what he is asking. He asked about contact with the IRA.
(Interruptions.)
There is no need for interruptions.
The Taoiseach asked me a question. My positive purpose is to inquire if the Taoiseach's policy in regard to contact with Sinn Féin as stated definitively here in the House on 29 June is still his policy and ask him to confirm that he has not authorised any departure from that policy. All of us in this House put some weight on the truthfulness of statements made here.
We are talking about contact with Sinn Féin, not with John Hume.
When there is a rejection of violence there will be a place at the table for Sinn Féin.
I know the Taoiseach does not want to comment on speculation but I would like to ask him a direct question. Has the Taoiseach's adviser met members of Sinn Féin or the IRA in relation to this matter?
As I said already, I do not propose to go into any detail in regard to the wide-ranging contacts I have, the communications that exist — and have always — in trying to get information on the situation that exists in relation to the violence in Northern Ireland. I will continue to maintain the widest possible contacts and communications in relation to it to try to bring about what the people of this country want, a permanent cessation of violence.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I will not disclose or comment in relation to anything said on a television or radio programme or written in a newspaper. I will continue to do my business and I believe I enjoy the support of the vast majority in this country to do it.
We have gone beyond the half hour available for the Taoiseach's questions today. The Chair has shown discretion in the matter and it must no be taken as a precedent.
I appreciate that. Has the Taoiseach noted, regarding the communications disclosed yesterday, that even after the tragedy of the Warrington bombing the lines of communications remained open and that the British Government stood by the nine points referred to in the message of 19 March? Will he agree it is a good indication that there is a future in the peace process, that some credit should be given to the British and at that time the deserved response was a total cessation of violence by the IRA? The Taoiseach referred to the patchwork of matters developing, when one looks at the patchwork of communications between the British and Irish Governments, the British Government and the Provisional movement, Hume and the Irish Government, one blank is very obvious, the lack of direct communication with the Unionists which is essential to any lasting agreement. Will the Taoiseach do his utmost to remedy that deficiency?
I assure the Deputy and the House that I am doing my utmost and will continue to do my utmost in that regard. I would welcome visits here from any level of political leadership in the Unionist community. I have met quite a number of people, including prominent people, and I can only use the opportunity presented by those people who come to see me to remedy the situation. I sent an article to The Telegraph, I have done interviews on the North of Ireland and the Tánaiste has gone out of his way to try to make contact by inviting people down here. I fully recognise that we need to have an understanding of the fears and suspicions of the Unionist community in approaching a peace and we are doing everything we can is this regard. I have already stressed to the British Prime Minister that he should use his position to tell the Unionist population that they should have no fears in regard to the peace initiative. Their fears and suspicions will be taken care of, they should be assured that there will be no change in the status of Northern Ireland without a majority of the people living there desiring a change. Consent for a change will have to be forthcoming. The peace initiative we are pursuing does not in any way change the position.
We want peace first and then for the political talks to take place which would include, I hope following a cessation of violence, representatives of Sinn Féin at the table who would then have the opportunity of making their input and putting their ideas forward as to what the future for Ireland should be. That is the only way forward. I want 25 years of violence to end. I have said on a number of occasions in this House — and the Tánaiste repeated it here and elsewhere — that we believe there is an opportunity for peace. In line with what Deputy Currie said, we believe our responsibility is to pursue that opportunity in the hope of bringing about a permanent cessation of violence.
The chance is there now.
The chance is there.
May I ask a final question?
I am sure the House will agree the Chair has given wide discretion to the Taoiseach's questions today. I am now proceeding to deal with questions nominated for priority to the Minister for the Environment. The questions on which we are about to embark are priority questions for which 20 minutes only are provided in our Standing Orders.