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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Feb 1994

Vol. 438 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Local Roads Maintenance: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Doyle on 8 February 1994.
That Dáil Éireann condemns, in the strongest possible manner, the failure of the Government to provide immediate and adequate resources to bring the local road network system up to an acceptable standard, particularly having regard to the economic and social hardships being caused by the continued underfunding for the maintenance of our non-national roads.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann notes the financial commitment of the Government to assisting local authorities to maintain local roads in a satisfactory condition and, in particular, notes:
—the substantial level of grants provided by the Exchequer for this purpose in recent years;
—the increased funding allocated for non-national roads in the National Development Plan;
—the provision of £86.9 million made for such roads in the Estimates for 1994;
—the additional £15 million provided in the Budget for the maintenance of such roads, bringing the overall provision for State grants for non-national roads to the record level of £101.9 million in 1994."
—(Minister for the Environment).

I understand I have ten minutes at my disposal. In that case I seek the approval of the House to share that time with my colleague, Deputy Theresa Ahearn.

I am sure that is in order.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to support this motion, in the name of my collegue, Deputy Doyle, on the state of county roads throughout the country. I should say at the outset how disappointing it was to hear the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, making an attack on the Fine Gael Party and the Fine Gael spokesperson without, obviously, having paid any heed to her speech. It was obvious that the ministerial speech was written well in advance of the delivery of Deputy Doyle's speech. The Government have indicated a paucity of thought and activity so far as dealing with this serious problem is concerned. The Government is simply unaware of the problem of our county roads. It appears that the springs of the Mercedez-Benz are not as sensitive to the potholes as are the ordinary everyday vehicles being driven by the hundreds of thousands of citizens throughout the State. That is the reason the Minister for the Environment is totally oblivious to the demands to deal with the crisis situation of county roads.

In the presence of my colleague, Deputy Boylan, who has championed the cause of county roads in Cavan during the past number of years and who has brought the position of county roads in Cavan on to the national agenda, I would say to him with the greatest respect that the problem is nationwide and is not confined to County Cavan. People are of the opinion that if the problem in County Cavan was addressed we would not have the present nationwide crisis within our county roads structure.

As a Member of this House I receive constant complaints from citizens and taxpayers in rural areas about county roads. These can be ignored no longer. The response of the Minister for the Environment gives little hope for rural communities under severe pressure. During the past 20 years, the decision-making process has ignored county roads in favour of motorways, highways and by-passes. We pride ourselves on the miles of motorways and the number or flyovers as symbols of prosperity and modernity. National wealth and national status is gauged on the number of flyovers, criss-crossing highways between our major cities. By concentrating the central focus of our policy on by-passes, bridges, motorways and dual carriageways we have forgotten about the county road network.

In the midlands, a Cheann Comhairle, as I am sure you are aware as one who travels to and from Dublin on a weekly basis, roads are in a deplorable condition. In fairness to the Government and in fairness to the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, the weather has played a major role in the deterioration of the road network during the past few months. The Government fails to appreciate the extent of the problem. The Minister for the Environment proved last night that he does not understand, that he is totally out of touch with what is happending with the county roads network and what is left of it.

I ask the Minister to request immediately a report on the county roads structure from every senior engineer in every local authority and that it be placed on his desk by 1 March next. I guarantee that the Minister is in for an eye opener when he reads the the tale of woe from local authorities throughout the country and learns of the amount of money required by local authorities to deal with successive years of neglect, by way of rate support grants and block grants for county roads.

In recent years, much emphasis has been placed on rural development and the need to breathe life into rural communities. The least we can ask for is an acceptable road network providing the basic facility to travel from A to B. This must be an essential prerequisite to any rural renewal. Once flourishing townlands are now uninhabited in parts of the Slieve Bloom mountains in my constituency of Laoighis-Offaly. Many roads in the area are impassible. A recent study commissioned by Laois Tourism Association warned against promoting many of the tourist attractions in County Laois because the roads leading to them were inaccessible. It was not possible to travel to places such as the Giant's Grave or the beautiful Glendine Valley in the Slieve Bloom mountains. Yet we are seeking to increase our tourist numbers and the Government is pinning its hope of recovery in the jobs market on the tourist industry. Many lanes and roads in rural areas are of Third World status. The reality is that more money was spent on county roads ten years ago than is being spent today.

Where are the European Union funds that would enable these lanes to be brought up to a standard that would enable the council to take them in charge. Local democracy has taken a hammering from the public because of the condition of the county roads. Public cynicism is widespread. It is a pity the Minister did not address himself to the problem. I hope the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Stagg, will give more hope to rural communities by way of letting us know what he hopes to do in this regard.

I, too, join my colleagues in supporting this motion. I believe there is not one Deputy who does not feel he should support this motion. One cannot believe that the Deputies from the Fine Gael Party are travelling on different roads from those travelled by the Labour and Fianna Fáil Parties.

They are certainly travelling in different cars.

Added to the county roads crisis is the reluctance and the blatant denial by the Minister for the Environment to face up to reality and to indicate that he will do something about it.

The Minister and myself are both from Tipperary. I can assure you I know the roads in north Tipperary as well as the roads in south Tipperary. The Minister has not alone denied what is happening in his own constituency but what is happening in every constituency. The roads in north Tipperary are flooded and are as bad as those in other constituencies. It is appalling that the Minister should come into this House and deny that we have a crisis with our county roads. As public representatives we have been inundated with phone calls from people who are prisoners in their homes. Last Sunday evening I visited a home the entrances to which were flooded. In fairness, many people put enormous effort into the appearance of their homes but now they find the local authority does not have the funds to alleviate their problems.

The answer to the problem we are discussing is adequate funding. The local authorities cannot solve the problem. It is only with finance from the Department of the Environment that local authorities can alleviate the problem of flooding and the appalling condition of our country roads. What is worse is that many of the problems, including flooding, could be alleviated if the manpower was employed by local authorities. My local authority employs four fewer men than it did 12 months ago and that is typical. If the Government is serious about creating jobs and about having economic sense in its arguments it will divert money from social welfare and employment people to ease the flooding on our county roads.

I am convinced that the legacy of neglect of our vast network of county roads which make up about 80 per cent of the total, arises in part from a conscious decision made in 1984 by the parties then in Government. Fine Gael and Labour, in their plan, Building on Reality, to concentrate the bulk of resources on main roads and on urban relief roads.

I gather that the Deputy is sharing his time.

I am, with a number of Deputies.

It will show the interest of the county roads policy.

Fianna Fáil reversed the 1984 decision on coming into office in line with the commitment in their——

What happened in 1977?

——1985 local election manifesto, and allocated a specific proportion of the annual Exchequer grants to fund the maintenance of county roads. The Government commitment to fund a £150 million programme for regional and county roads in three years 1989-91 was met in full. By the end of 1991 more than £182 million was provided. In 1991 the £65 million spent on the maintenance of county roads was more than the total spent in the four years 1983-86 by the Fine Gael/Labour Coalition and was more than four times the £15 million allocated in 1986. I would like to help members of the Fine Gael Party tonight——

Wait until the Deputy starts canvassing.

——by urging them to look at the Irish Press and The Irish Times of 25 October 1990 in which Deputy Noonan of Limerick East states pothole politics. He said that the political pressure had always been on the pothole outside the door rather than on the by-pass around the town, when speaking to the Dublin Chamber of Commerce at their October luncheon. He said that the £3 billion which would come our way from EC Structural Funds should be spent permanently removing the disabilities which affect our transport network. He was critical of the fact that £80 million had been diverted from major projects during that year to be spent instead on work on county and other minor roads. This is a matter of record and should not be forgotten by his colleagues.

Does the Deputy agree with it?

The total grants paid to county councils for all works on non-national roads came to almost £40 million in 1988 and in the five years 1989-93 grants paid to county councils for non-national road maintenance and improvement works totalled £366 million. Taking account of the contribution from local resources, total expenditure by county councils on non-national roads in the past five years was more than £120 million a year. That is a huge amount of money and it has not been well spent because our county roads are in a very bad way.

I am worried as a taxpayer and as a representative of taxpayers that despite colossal amounts of money being ploughed into county roads we have an extremely bad situation which will be helped somewhat by the additional £15 million from the budget. This sum should be looked at as an emergency measure to deal with a drastic position which is causing great concern. One can appreciate the anger at the condition of our county roads. Much money has been spent but the roads are as bad as they have ever been. The inclement weather is to blame to some extent, as Deputy Flanagan said, but another factor is that the roads are being maintained only to a minimum standard. The manpower is not being provided by the local authorities.

The Minister must take control in relation to another area in which local authorities cannot do anything. Where dairying is a big industry 500,000 gallon tanks are being driven round the farms collecting milk. The county roads were not built to carry such traffic. Apart from the potholes, county roads have subsided on both sides and have completely cracked. Patching will not do. These roads were never meant to carry trucks of 30 or 40 tonnes. This is a major problem and large amounts of money have been spent on these roads, £336 million from 1989 to 1993. In most counties county and regional roads are in a very bad condition, but in some counties roads have been well maintained, perhaps through good management.

This is a major problem which will not go away. We must devise a plan which will not discriminate against people living in rural areas. These areas should not become no-go areas. The people there deserve fair play and justice and must be given it by our Minister.

I am glad that Fine Gael tabled a motion that shows a change of attitude to county roads. When they were in a position to provide money——

One could drive around Cavan at that stage.

——they came up with the plan Building on Reality which mentioned everything except county roads. I asked a Minister at that time about the provision of money for county roads which were then in a deplorable condition and I was told that funding was and would continue to be the responsibility of the local authorities. When Fianna Fáil was returned to power in 1987 I talked to Deputy Flynn on the day he was appointed Minister for the Environment and requested money for county roads. In his first year in office he transferred £7 million from primary and national secondary roads to county roads to get them into some shape. County roads were listed as a priority for post-Maastricht funding. We have substantial funding but it will not be adequate. However, it represents a change of heart when we can get money from Europe for county roads. As this money will not come onstream quickly enough the Minister has provided £15 million from the tax amnesty and that represents a very good day's work.

My county holds 1.5 per cent of the population and we provide about 5 per cent of manufacturing output. All our industries require imports and heavy loading. We are a leader in poultry and mushrooms with about 60 per cent of mushroom production. One firm has a turnover of £60 million. Only last week there were applications for 20 new plastic tunnels which shows how the industry has expanded. Most mushroom production units are located on minor roads. We also control a major portion of the poultry industry and large quantities of feed must be transported on narrow roads. Those two industries alone would account for 750,000 tonnes of road carrying capacity.

Due to Border troubles funding is a problem for us. The courthouse was burned and the local authority out of its revenue had to provide £500,000 to cover substantial malicious injury claims. Then, the 1983 Dukes budget devastated the area affecting filling stations and garages and we also lost revenue in rates. In the county there are 132 crossings into Northern Ireland, 41 of which are closed, some for over 20 years and I spoke about this when I first entered the House. Because of road closures and the blowing up of bridges traffic had to be diverted from national to minor routes and this has meant a greater volume of traffic on our roads.

We must also take account of the drumlin soil, indeed the poet Patrick Kavanagh referred to the stony grey soil of Monaghan which is not the best foundation for roads. The narrow winding roads in our hilly county are difficult to maintain and I hope that funding will be relative to the demands of industry and the volume of traffic.

Caithfidh mé a rá go gcuireann sé an-áthas orm labhairt ar an ábhar seo agus go bhfuil áthas orm go bhfuil Fine Gael tar éis athrú-intinne a chuir orthu féin agus teacht ar an tuairim go mba cheart airgead a chaitheamh ar na bóithre contaetha.

I am very pleased to speak on this motion and delighted the Fine Gael, late in the day, has come to the conclusion that our country roads need support.

In the four years from 1983-86, £129 million was spent on county roads, contrast that with the £101 million to be spent on county roads this year. Our problems are due to the legacy of insufficient funding from the middle 1980s. I have fought consistently to highlight the need for a proper county road structure for two reasons, first because agriculture, forestry, aquaculture, fisheries and tourism either starts or finishes on county roads and second, because people's standard of living and right of access to their property is determined by the state of the country roads. When I was elected to the Seanad I claimed that one of the greatest mistakes in the last decade was the decision to put all the EC Structural Funds into the national primary road network. I complained consistently that we had to ensure this time round that funding from the Structural Funds would be made available for strategic national secondary and county roads. I compliment the Government on getting Europe to agree, it is a great step forward.

A sum of £101 million is not sufficient to solve the problem overnight but people will accept that progress is being made and steps taken in the right direction. Let me sound a warning on possible minefields, we need to ensure that we get value for money and that it is spread over the maximum mileage while ensuring that the work done is adequate.

I support the Government amendment to the motion. I maintained from the day of my election that the Government would be tested on the issue of county roads but the Government has taken to heart the message from public representatives and mar a deir siad i nGaeilge, tá siad as deánamh beart de réir a mbriathair.

Fianna Fáil has always placed a great emphasis on the economic value and social importance of county roads. By and large they are the arteries that bind our rural communities together.

When discussing the construction of roads we should recall the old adage that when you dig a hole you should have a good look to see exactly what you are digging and know when to stop. Never has this been more apt for Fine Gael than now. It has dug many holes for itself. I suppose the tax amnesty is the most spectacular example, but Deputy Doyle seems determined to perpetrate the noble Fine Gael tradition and dig a massive crater, big enough for the whole of the Fine Gael Front Bench to fall into. Where others would be content to use a shovel, one can trust Deputy Doyle to use a digger in traditional Fine Gael style.

Deputy Collins said that the roads are in a bad condition but we should put it into context. During December rainfall was 150 per cent above average and obviously this has had a catastrophic effect on the roads. This year we will be spending 35 per cent more than last year on our county roads and we need to ensure we get value for money. I suggest the Minister should examine the way local authorities organise the repair and resurfacing of the county roads in their area. Is there any point in patching up the road if the drains are blocked? It is important to ensure that drains are free so that they can cope with heavy rainfall. Many people are well aware that this is not happening and that during periods of heavy rainfall the roads are flooded. The patching carried out is uprooted and the situation is worse than before. We need to ensure that the local authorities approach the problem in an integrated and efficient manner.

About two years ago there were reports on the great pothole machine, it was supposed to be much more efficient in dealing with potholes than the traditional method. In recent times I heard very little about it and I ask the Minister to comment on this.

On the question of funding, I think the Department provides £1.40 for every £1 provided by a local authority. However, it is apparent that many local authorities decide when they receive their grant from the Minister to contribute little from their own resources. This cannot be allowed to continue. In this regard, I am pleased the Minister said that in the future he will look at what local authorities are providing from their own resources for the maintenance and repair of county roads to see how committed they are to this task.

I welcome the provision of £33.6 million for special road improvements projects in an effort to take effective action using EU funds to develop local economies and create employment. The objective is to see if we can develop local economies by improving the road infrastructure and thereby create the necessary number of jobs.

To return to the Fine Gael motion, on the one hand the party's Finance spokesperson said that we must cut public expenditure while on the other Deputy Doyle said we must spend more and more. I suppose one could call them Ivy and Ave — Ivy is certainly not talking to Ave who does not know what Ivy is doing. In this case, Ivy stands for Ivan while Ave stands for Avril, Ave Maria. Needless to say no one tells John anything with the result that the party finds itself in a mess because no one knows from one day to the next what policies the party is pursuing.

This is a great contribution; the people in rural Ireland will be happy with that.

Deputy Doyle is being consistent in advocating further spending because when Fine Gael last entered Government the national debt was £12 billion but when it left office four and a half years later it was £24.5 billion.

What happened during the period 1977-81?

A question that has to be asked in the House——

The Deputy should not forget who bailed his party out in 1987.

No interruptions, please.

——is, where would Fine Gael get the funding from? Would it reduce the housing allocation? Would it increase taxation?

No; we will have to show the Deputy how.

Would Fine Gael increase taxation on the pint etc? It is obvious the Fine Gael Party has no policies and this motion highlights its inadequacies. While this is a sad state of affairs, it is the truth.

This is unbelievable.

Fine Gael should get its act together and its motions should reflect well on the party rather than highlight its inadequacies.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy should go back to 1977 when his party was thrown out of office.

While the motion is appropriate, it would not be fair to blame the Minister for the Environment for the state of county roads. He is not responsible for the weather nor for the fact that no maintenance works were carried out on county roads up to and including 1987 when the Fine Gael led Coalition left office. It is also fair to say, as the Minister has explained, that grants totalling £336 million were paid to county councils for non-national roads between 1989-93 and that this year grants totalling £109 million will be paid to all local authorities for non-national roads or £26.6 million more than the amount provided in 1993. We should therefore see an improvement.

This is not to say that many of our county roads are not in a deplorable state because the truth is that this is a real problem in rural Ireland. It is very sad that day after day people living in rural Ireland explain to us that they are unable to bring vehicles to their own homes. This problem must be addressed. The Minister has gone a long way towards this by increasing the allocation using £15 million from the proceeds of the tax amnesty. In that context it is welcome that for the first time Structural and Cohesion Funds will be expended on non-national roads. Because this was not allowed under the last round of Structural Funds a major problem was created for the Minister of the day.

In the final analysis it is obvious that the maintenance of county roads leads to the creation of employment in local economies. It is true to say that long ago men were employed on roads in rural areas and their sole task very often was to free the water tables so that there were not huge potholes after heavy rainfall. If there was a message that I could give in this debate it would be that while we should maintain mechanisation in the maintenance of county roads we should recognise also that human labour and effort is far more effective in preventing the county road network from deteriorating.

In this respect, it is only fair to point out that the roads are far worse in some local authority areas. In County Kerry, for example, there are in excess of 2,000 miles of county roads many of them are in a desperate state. Without doubt a contributory factor is the distribution of the rate support grant which is based on the rateable valuation of 1977. Therefore, when rates were abolished the rate support grant was linked to the rateable valuation in a county at that time. In the case of those counties where county roads are still in a poor state the position was that the rateable valuation was low which in turn meant the rate support grant was also low. That is not the fault of the present Minister but has been a feature of the term of office of successive Governments since 1977.

It is ridiculous that a local authority which raises more from its commercial ratepayers than a local authority in a county with a similar population also receives a higher proportion of the rate support grant. This, in turn, puts considerable pressure on a local authority's finances because in the final analysis that authority must utilise most of the money it collects from its commercial ratepayers on county roads. Its ability to do so is severely hampered by the fact that there is a grave inequity in the distribution of the rate support grant. If proof was required it surely must be that while local authorities in rural areas were obliged for several years to impose service charges the same was not true up to recently in many parts of Dublin. This meant that people who were unable to bring vehicular traffic to their homes were obliged to pay refuse and water charges while their counterparts in the cities where there are excellent roads and services did not have to do so.

The Minister for the Environment is going in the right direction. He has a difficult task because, in the final analysis, he is dealing with roads which were not built to carry the traffic they carry today. I sincerely hope that in the context of the Cohesion and Structural Funds and the agreement by the European Commission that the funds can be spent on non-national roads we will see the day when people will have an adequate road to their homes which, after all, is a fundamental right.

A Cheann Comhairle, I wish to share my time with Deputies Sargent, Durkan and another Fine Gael Deputy.

The amendment being proposed by the Government tonight outlines the commitments made in relation to maintaining local roads. It outlines funding that has already been announced in the National Development Plan and in the budget and the Estimates. On the surface, it would appear to be a welcome increase in the allocation for roads. However, when the small print is examined a rather different picture emerges.

The overall provision of State grants for non-national roads for 1994 is £101.9 million — what the Government calls a record level and what I would call trying to make up lost ground. To put this provision into context, as part of the submissions made within the framework of the EU Structural Funds 1994-97, Wicklow County Council estimated that the cost for the total road network is £154.80 million. In the coming five years we need over 40 per cent more in the county I represent than the entire national allocation for local roads for this year.

The Estimate for providing for the needs of main roads, regional roads, county roads, rural roads and bridges alone in County Wicklow is £72.2 million. If allocated in one year this would gobble up almost three-quarters of the entire allocation for the country, and Wicklow is only one county out of 26 counties — or 28 entities with the inclusion of the new Dublin councils. This puts into perspective the need that has built up over the years and the minimalist Government response that is now is being lauded as a major initiative.

In view of the increased allocation, the overall sum to local authorities is divided by two; discretionary block grants which are financed entirely by the Exchequer and a scheme of specific grants which will be co-financed. The co-financed projects are the ones on which many hopes have been pinned. I do not believe that the restrictions as regards the criteria to be satisfied have yet been fully understood at local level. These criteria will militate against urban areas outside of Dublin that at the moment have been getting less than their share.

I welcome the presence of the Minister of State who will have an interest in this, representing a constituency in Kildare.

In particular I would specify the towns around the perimeter of Dublin — in Wicklow, Meath and Kildare — which have had to cope with a very rapid expansion of population and demands for urban-style road systems while at the same time having rural style allocations.

The situation in Bray is critical. We live in a town which is at times completely jammed with traffic. Many roads are used to over capacity and are unable to meet the demand. Yet in 1993 we got an allocation of £33,000. In other words we got approximately £1 per head of population to pay for roads, footpaths, public lighting and bridges. That was a derisory allocation. Consequently, in 1993, we applied for, but did not get, a discretionary grant of £1.8 million which was more in line with the real needs. It is worth noting that the block grant covers everything relating to roads. In Bray the public lighting bill alone is enormous and is exacerbated by use of lamp standards that comply with Department of Environment regulations but fail abjectly when tested by vandals. Even that application does not cover the extra demands which a relief road to the town is creating.

The Southern Cross Route is a project which is being co-funded by Wicklow County Council and Bray UDC to the tune of £300,000. The Department has agreed in principle to make up the balance. However, since the regulations now governing the criteria for grants for improvement work on non-national roads are so tight, we will end up in an untenable position.

The Southern Cross Route itself will cost £1.55 million. At the rate specified in the Department of the Environment's circular any specific grant for Wicklow will be spent entirely on that project and even at that will not be sufficient to complete the work in 1994. However, since this funding is subject to the conditions spelt out in the Department's circular we in Wicklow, and particularly in North Wicklow, are going to be at a severe disadvantage. A cap has been put on the scheme of specific grants, the cap being 100 per cent of the combined discretionary block grants paid to the authorities concerned in the year 1993. In Wicklow the entire specific grant will be taken up in one project at the expense of other road improvements. This is unfair to the county. It is unfair to the expanding town of Bray and it will be unfair to other areas like Kildare and Meath which find themselves in the same situation. That is the reality that is hidden behind the grandiose projections in the National Development Plan.

In rural areas the maintenance of existing roads has suffered as a result of years of neglect and underfunding. It is recommended that roads be resurfaced every five to seven years. In County Wicklow we aim at a rate of resurfacing once in every 30 years. Meanwhile the potholes appear, the roads deteriorate, and the costs of renovation mount. The case for Cavan and Monaghan is already well documented.

The point I am making — and I would ask the Minister to take it on board because of seriousness — is that there is concentration on rural roads. I do not argue with that. There is a concentration, too, on the massive transport complications in the cities, but nobody is arguing the case for the towns, particularly the towns along the perimeter of the cities. This has not been articulated to any great degree.

I am proposing a massive grant for Bray.

The specific grants — not the national primary route grants — are going to be capped at last year's level. That is one problem. The other problem is that the criteria for the specific grants militate against towns because they relate to industrial development, which is fair enough, but they also relate to forestry, tourism, agriculture and rural development. Under none of those criterion can a town like Bray qualify. These towns have very strong commercial centres which are very busy and clogged up with traffic. Under the present criteria we cannot argue a case for a specific grant unless there is great flexibility shown by the Minister, and by the way he is nodding I can see he is going to listen to our case.

Yes, and you are going to get that.

I will have that in writing before the Minister leaves the Chamber.

I just cannot help being generous.

Let us see it on paper, because it is a problem.

Not on paper, on the roads.

We will have no problem spending the money. We are waiting with baited breath and will ask the Minister to come and open the Southern Cross Route by the end of 1994, since he has made such promising statements tonight. It is a date.

The Deputy is on.

In regard to the local improvement schemes an opportunity is being lost because the isolated communities in my constituency are unable to carry out roadworks from their own resources. The local improvement schemes have been very effective when the money has been available because they tie in with local initiative and the goodwill that can be generated among people to come together and provide a certain percentage of the funding. However, people cannot do it on their own. It is disappointing that last year we got only £43,000 under the local improvement scheme. It enabled three projects to go ahead, but the demand is much greater and I would argue that since it is local people being given the opportunity to invest along with a local authority in road improvements, that should be beefed up to prevent the goodwill being dissipated as is happening at the moment.

In Bray we have benefited greatly from the amount of money that has been allocated to the national primary route. I give credit where credit is due. However, there is still an outstanding problem in relation to Euro Route I; at every connector into that primary route there are problems because they are still being treated as if they were county roads which they are not. At the moment they are a no man's land because we are not a rural area nor are we a city area and yet we have this enormous traffic problem.

There is lighting of a top European standard along the Euro route out of Dublin, but none in County Wicklow. This problem must be addressed, we cannot have a falling away of standards in areas outside the city. People living on the outskirts of cities are now part of the greater metropolitan area, which must be taken into account in the overall development of our road network.

I thank Deputy McManus and members of the Fine Gael Party for sharing their time with me. I have read the Fine Gael motion and the inevitable Government amendment. Am I imagining things or do I detect a feeling of smug aloofness in the Government's wording of its amendment? Is it saying there is no problem in regard to the state of non-national roads?

The amendment states that local roads are in a satisfactory condition. The Government claims commitment to non-national roads, the word "commitment" must be one of the most abused words in this House; it is a remedy for everything. Unfortunately, the facts do not highlight anything short of lip-service. While I recognise that some of the primary roads built in recent years are important in alleviating chronic congestion in some of our towns, others appear rather excessive unless we are trying desperately to emulate the British motorway system, with little more than one-twentieth of their population. However, while those with the begging bowl for Europe tell us the new roads are being provided with the generosity of our EU godparents, seldom are people reminded that EU money grant-aids only 75 per cent of the mega road projects. The remaining 25 per cent required to surface and prop up the EU sections of the monster motorways must come from Exchequer funds, funds which used to keep our extensive existing roads in reasonable condition.

That is not true.

The Minister must admit that there is a certain truth in that.

On the other hand, I am not surprised the Minister is wondering what all the fuss is about. After all, expensive ministrial cars are designed to allow important people write letters and snooze on a long journey. I am not sure about this Government but in other countries some cars are equipped with full cocktail cabinets. The suspension on a ministerial car must be soft and soothing whatever road surface is being travelled. Therefore, I am not surprised that potholes and fissures go unnoticed. Whatever hope the Minister has of noticing potholes in a car——

The Deputy's colleagues were voting against moneys for roads two days ago until I advised them otherwise.

——he certainly could overlook the problem in style when travelling by helicopter.

The Deputy wanted to vote against road allocations the other day.

However, most people rarely have an opportunity to travel in the style to which the Minister is accustomed. Most people are well aware that we are storing up major road works by neglecting remedial repair works since we began to divert "pothole money" to service large motorways. If people do not believe that is a crisis due to the neglect of our country roads they should ask our much valued tourists. Although Bord Fáile actively promotes Ireland as a place to cycle and walk, making out routes and circuits along our most scenic country roads, the director of that organisation, in a letter to me praising the Fingal area and the multitude of quaint and ancient roadways in north county Dublin, said he had given up walking those traditional routes because of the many potholes and because passing vehicles would drench him in mud. Instead, when he wants to walk he must take his car to Newbridge House or Ardgillen Castle splashing everybody on the way in order to get a splash-free and pothole free zone free from churned up puddles and mud.

However, not everyone can get into a car, ministerial or otherwise, and drive to such places. Children are more likely to cycle, if allowed. A recent study shows that independent travel has been restricted because of parent's fears for their children's safety on our country roads. This grounding of youngsters leads to excessive television viewing resulting in children's health being at an all time low. We now have the fire brigade action of money not spent on our roads going towards repairing our children's health and the worse our roads become, the worse our health deteriorates.

It is worth lifting our eyes from our potholes for a moment and focusing across the horizon to a country where the population take ample exercise, lead a healthy lifestyle and have cheaper travel with less road maintenance. The secret in the Netherlands is their 30,000 kilometres of cycle ways; bicycles do not cause potholes, in fact cyclists will avoid them if they see them on time. In contrast, at the last count we had ten kilometres of cycle ways. Is it any wonder that 1 per cent of our total personal mileage is cycled while the Dutch calculate that 33 per cent of their personal mileage is travelled by bicycle? Lest anyone is of the opinion that bicycles are mainly for children, 25 per cent of the total mileage travelled by female pensioners in the Netherlands is by bicycle.

They will be doing that here before long as a result of the tax measures introduced in the budget.

The Minister will be aware that many Dutch tourists come here and some have bought areas of our bogland to preserve them. That is an indication of the extent of their love for this country. If we are serious about our environment, our children, our health, tourism and general economic activity in rural areas, such as north county Dublin, repairing and maintaining our county roads is more than pothole treatment, it is an investment in the future which will encourage a sustainable healthy way of life where local communities and economies can thrive in a manner that will save money in the long term.

Most Irish people love a good joke. We are known internationally for our wit and ability to laugh at ourselves. However, there is one joke we can no longer laugh at, namely, the one about the Irish pothole. It is fashionable to repeat the stories about guided tours around famous Irish potholes, about hitch-hikers going missing in them and squatters moving in and living in potholes.

The jokes have worn thin as has the patience of the Irish motorist. While we can take pride in the upgrading of our national primary routes and the development work being done on the infrastructures between our major towns and cities, there is another forgotten Ireland where the roads are merely a trial and a tribulation to be endured on a journey from home to work, to farm or to school. The pothole is no longer a joke to be laughed at over a drink. It is a harsh reality of daily life for thousands of Irish people. Indeed, it is now a rare and unexpected pleasure to find a good section of roadway in between the multitude of ruts and ridges.

Somewhere along the way we seem to have forgotten that the small rural community in north Tipperary, or its counterpart in any other constituency, is as much a part of the European Community as their urban brethren. In north Tipperary many of my constituents would have only a casual acquaintance with the national primary routes. Their daily lives are spent away from mainline traffic but for them, no less than the Dublin-Cork commuter, that road system is a vital link in their daily lives and the quality of the route determines much of their activities. It is regrettable that that quality has deteriorated to an alarming extent. We have reached the stage where my constituents believe they have become marginalised in many ways, the poor quality of the road system being merely one of the many symptoms of the discriminatory treatment having to be endured by them.

How can we blame them for feeling that way when, for example, the life of a motor vehicle is seriously diminished because of being constantly driven on roads with poor quality surfaces? Potential damage to one's car is a hazard people must face on a daily basis. The problem is compounded by the fear of many parents to allow their children walk to school because they would be in danger of injury as a result of the condition of our roads. In north Tipperary roads were closed last winter and people were unable to get direct access to their homes and farms except by walking or using a tractor.

The Minister, like me, comes from a rural background. One would imagine he would have greater sympathy with the needs of the towns and villages of north Tipperary. It is ironic that while we are talking about major problems on our secondary and trunk roads the Minister is overseeing the construction of super-highways. We do not want four or six lane motorways, we want to sit at the Minister's table and take our fair ration of the cake, instead of scratching around on the floor for the crumbs. It is evident that the powers of local councils are being diminished. It is also evident that regional funds are not being applied fairly across the board. I ask the Minister to give councils power and authority but, more importantly, to give them money to enable them set long term objectives, instead of struggling from one month to the next. The construction of highways, dual carriageways, by-passes and flyovers are welcome, but I ask the Minister to provide funding for the county and country roads of his native north Tipperary.

Our rural roads are like obstacle courses to be negotiated at one's peril. They are in a disgraceful, deplorable condition. The Minister and the Government are oblivious to the fact that we have passed the crisis point. Unfortunately, my constituency colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, and his Department, through inept administration and lack of funding are facilitating these appalling conditions. All public representatives are inundated with pleas for help from members of the disillusioned public who are aggrieved and angry about the conditions of our roads. A calm, patient approach to politicians is being overtaken by militant action. In case any Member might be under a false illusion, the Minister has done no favours for north Tipperary. I regularly defend the Minister when our constituents deplore his lack of commitment to the welfare of rural commuters. I have never accepted the charge that has been levelled against him that he has lost touch with reality since he started commuting by Government jet or helicopter.

North Tipperary County Council is in a state of financial turmoil. It has neither the personnel nor the resources to provide an acceptable level of service for a hard-pressed community. It is understaffed and many essential services have been curtailed to an unacceptable extent. Our roadworks scheme is farcical. Our roads are in a shambles. The county engineer has said that the overall level of funding available for regional and county roads in 1993 has resulted in an accelerated decline and by the end of 1993 60 per cent of the system was in an advanced state of disintegration. The roads have a surface dressing cycle of 45 years. The estimated outlay on the north Tipperary network alone would be £38 million. That is the professional assessment — that it would cost £38 million to restore the regional and county road network there.

This position is in stark contrast to the Minister congratulating himself on doing handstands for providing an extra £15 million to be divided among all the county councils. The time for sermons and history lessons is long past. We need real, effective action. It is imperative that the Minister returns to the Cabinet table to seek a substantially improved allocation to deal with this crisis which is having a serious and detrimental effect on the quality of rural life. The Minister's actions and progress in this regard will be monitored carefully and adjudicated on by the electorate in the forthcoming European elections.

The little roads of Ireland that go wandering up and down o'er hill, dale, valley and many a midland town at regular intervals have very large, deep potholes. A visitor to this planet who travelled to any rural or urban constituency would be pardoned for concluding that there had been an abdication of responsibility, that the Minister had retired or gone home in disgust. That visitor would be right because that is virtually what has happened. On many occasions the Minister has told us what he did last year, but he does not appear to accept or recognise that we have got only 10 per cent of the funds required for a single year. Ten per cent of the annual allocation has been provided to maintain the main and county roads in each electoral area.

The Minister of State who is sitting opposite knows that what I say is true in our constituency of Kildare. The paltry sum of £15 million which the Minister cast away from the tax amnesty table could easily be spent in one, and not necessarily the largest, electoral area. During Question Time today I was under the impression that the Minister thought he had done a great job for this area. He might delude other people that he has done a good job but if he is deluding himself in that regard it is a serious matter. The Minister should take some action to deal with this problem. Over 30 years I have never had the experience of driving on such bad roads as those on which I drove during the past few months. I have damaged two new tyres because of potholes. In doing one's best to avoid as many potholes as possible, it follows that on the law of averages one is bound to damage a tyre at some stage because of the state of our roads. I notice no member of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party is present in the Chamber.

They were here earlier.

The Minister spoke today about what should be done at parliamentary party meetings. I presume Fianna Fáil is holding a parliamentary party meeting at present and, if not, it should be holding one, to decide what it will do about potholes. If necessary road works are not carried out during the current year it will cost two to three times as much to carry out such road works next year. My colleague, Deputy Lowry, mentioned the 45 year road resurfacing cycle. Some young and not so young people have never seen road resurfacing take place here in recent years and some children will never see road resurfacing if the present position does not change. That is a sad reflection on the type of road conditions with which people have to live here at present.

The allocation was made at the time when there was a big squabble here about how many billions we would get from Europe, how many billions were missing from the European grant and on what we would spend the extra billions we were seeking. It is ironic that at a time when there was so much talk about billions of pounds, the largest allocation that could be given to address the main issue, which has raised more hackles among our people during the past 12 months was £15 million.

I am sick of listening to Ministers at Question Time say that the condition of our roads is a matter for the local authorities. The Minister knows that all local authorities have been hamstrung for years because they have no way of raising money. They are manacled. They depend entirely on the Department's allocation. When a backbencher in the Minister's party raised a question about the rate support grant, the Minister pretended he did not understand the question. It was as if he was in another world. Having listened to his response it appeared that he was seriously deluding himself about the position and that is a cause for concern.

We appeal for funding for our roads on behalf of all our constituents. I appeal to the Minister for the Environment, on behalf of the constituents of County Kildare whom I represent, to note that we need substantial funding to deal with the task he has given to the local authorities. If he does not recognise that need it will be brought home to him during the run up to the European elections. If I were in the Minister's shoes I would seriously consider the options. Some of the billions he was seeking from Brussels during the past few months might be better spent on the old bog roads which he, along with his colleagues, will have to travel during the next three months.

I observe that other than the Minister of State there are no Government Members in the House; obviously they have little interest in this debate. As there are not 20 Members in the House I wish to call a quorum to bring them in here to hear about the problems in rural Ireland. Why are the bells not ringing?

I am advised that on this business it is not in order to call a quorum.

I ask you to inform the House on this matter.

Standing Order 19 states: "If at any stage in a sitting of the Dáil, other than while a private member's Bill or motion is under consideration ...". I now call on the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Stagg.

The effect of the intervention, which, as it turns out, was not in order, is that I will not have time to reply to all the points raised.

There was nobody here from Fianna Fáil. The Government does not care about rural Ireland.

Deputy Molloy should desist.

The motion is the essence of political opportunism and ignores the very sizeable increase in funding by the Government for non-national roads. Deputy Doyle repeatedly suggested that substantially increased expenditure on non-national roads should be funded by the proceeds of the tax amnesty. This argument ignores the fact that the Fine Gael Party opposed the tax amnesty and that the major portion of its proceeds——

That is so, but the compliant taxpayer should benefit.

——is being devoted to eliminating the health board deficits which Fine Gael singled out as a major difficulty for small firms who have had to wait long periods for payment of debts.

We are talking about potholes.

A sum of £6 million a mile was spent on highways but nothing went towards rural Ireland.

Further elements of the tax amnesty are being allocated to meet needs such as An Post and Telecom pension fund liabilities, the special task force for the elderly and local authority housing. Will Deputy Doyle indicate which of these needs should be ignored or substantially cut back to facilitate an even greater increase in spending on non-national roads?

About £6 million a mile was spent on highways while no money was spent on rural Ireland. The Government has its priorities wrong.

Fine Gael finds it very easy to propose additional expenditure but difficult to say from where that expenditure should come. The electorate will not be fooled by such a superficial approach to a serious matter.

We will not be fooled by the Minister.

The amnesty money should be spent on the compliant taxpayers.

Primary responsibility for the improvement and maintenance of non-national roads is a matter for local authorities, financed from their own resources and augmented by the discretionary grant provided annually by my Department.

They have no resources.

That is not what the Minister said when he was a member of the local authority.

This grant is intended to supplement, not replace, expenditure by local authorities.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister, without interruption, please.

I say this because many people, including the Members across the Floor, are under the misapprehension that the Government is responsible for these roads.

The Government has starved local authorities of funds.

I will repeat some of the relevant figures quoted by the Minister during his contribution, which prove the commitment of the Government to our non-national roads. In the five years from 1989 to 1993 grants paid to county councils for non-national road maintenance and improvement works totalled £336 million.

On a point of order, is the Minister replying on behalf of the Government to the points made during the debate?

I am making a contribution.

Will he tell us why the Government is spending £6 million a mile on highways?

Deputy Molloy, that is not a point of order. Please resume your seat.

The Deputy is time wasting.

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Will the Minister heed the points raised in the debate?

Please resume your seat, Deputy.

In the five years from 1989 to 1993, grants paid to county councils——

The Minister is only filling time reading a script.

If the Deputy does not resume his seat I will ask him to leave the House.

The Minister should be relevant to the debate. There is a crisis in rural Ireland and he is ignoring it.

The Deputy will resume his seat or leave the House. He is being continuously disorderly.

Does the Minister accept there is a crisis on our roads?

In the five years from 1989 to 1993 grants paid to county councils for non-national road maintenance and improvement works totalled £336 million, or £67 million a year on average. Taking account of the contribution from local resources, total expenditure by county councils on non-national roads in the last five years was well over £600 million, or more than £120 million per year on average.

It was not spent on maintenance. The Minister should stick to the facts.

For every pound spent by county councils on non-national roads in 1988, the State paid just over 70p. For every pound spent by county councils on these roads last year, the State spent almost £1.40.

I must ask the Minister to conclude.

The Minister does not read the county managers' reports. The whole thing is collapsing.

We were given history lessons this evening and yesterday rather than solutions to our major problems on county roads. I am disappointed that is the only contribution the Government made.

We were not allowed to make a contribution.

If we want history lessons we would go back to 1984. However, I will refer to what happened in 1977. A recent reported stated that the level of funding provided for the regional and county road network in 1993 was only 33 per cent of that provided in 1977.

The Deputy should give the text of that report.

Deputy Leonard cannot deny it. Last year Monaghan needed £1.25 million to hard-top 300 miles of roads, but we were not given that funding and today those roads are in tatters. In the last six years Monaghan lost £25 million by way of rate support grants. When referring to these matters Ministers should give total amounts rather than highlighting certain figures. The county council in my area cannot carry out repairs to county roads with the amount of money it received from the Government, which is just a drop in the ocean. A sum of £15 million has been allocated from the proceeds of the amnesty, but what can be done with that amount of money? Each local authority will receive a maximum amount of £100,000.

If Fine Gael had its way there would be no amnesty and no money.

The Government collected the money and it should spend it on the compliant taxpayers.

Deputy Crawford, without interruption.

As rightly pointed out, 70 per cent of poultry and 60 per cent of mushrooms are produced in County Monaghan. We have a home produced industry but we receive very little by way of grants. As there are no railroads and no airport in County Monaghan, we should receive increased aid towards our roads. A sum of £100 million is provided in this year's budget for railroads. If we received our fair share, which we were promised by successive Governments — I am not saying that one Government was more at fault than another — we would not experience the present crisis in Counties Monaghan and Cavan.

When there is a death in a family, the family contacts its public representatives, to see if we can find a way to get the hearse to the church. This happens weekly. It now takes 20 minutes to travel on roads which took two minutes a few years ago.

We cannot afford to ignore any longer the condition of our county roads, the arteries used by business. If ten Deputies can come together, as they did today, to press for changes in the level of residential property tax proposed in the budget so as to improve their chances in the June elections, I hope the same number of rural Deputies will come together — I will be glad to join them — to let the Minister know exactly how they feel about this issue and how the funding can be provided. If £10 million can be found to improve Dublin Castle to show the Europeans how well off we are then funding can be found for our roads. If we show these Europeans the condition of our county roads I guarantee there will be no problem in getting extra money from Europe.

I welcome the opportunity to reply to this debate and to support the motion put forward by the Fine Gael spokesperson on the Environment, Deputy Doyle.

When I was elected to this House in 1987 I raised the serious condition of our county roads. If heed had been taken at that time of the warnings given by me the issue we are now discussing would not have arisen. What was a Cavan joke at that time has now become a national nightmare.

As the old adage goes, a stitch in time saves nine. If the Government had heeded my warnings in 1987 we would not have this problem.

I compliment the backbench Members of the Government parties and the Members of the Opposition parties for their excellent contributions to this debate. However, I was disappointed with the contributions of the Minister last night and of the Minister of State tonight.

I did not get a chance to make my contribution.

It was only a history lesson.

Short as it was, we heard enough. It was sufficient to let us know that the Minister is not taking our proposal on board.

The Minister for potholes.

Deputy Boylan without interruption, please.

The Minister's contribution must have caused despair among the people in rural Ireland. He delivered a prepared speech with a slanted history of the problem, liberally laced with political jibes. While this may be great church gate stuff it is not a proper contribution to a serious motion.

Having heard further contributions, we expected more from the Minister of State tonight.

I was only allowed two minutes.

Where is the Government?

I am here.

Deputy Boylan must be allowed to continue uninterrupted.

Parliament does not mean anything to the Government any more. It is trying to walk on the people and has no heed in parliament; it is trying to close this place down. It is a farce.

I am here.

Deputy Boylan must be allowed to continue uninterrupted.

Among the goodies listed by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs on behalf of the Labour Party — that party's contribution to the budget — it was stated that £20 million was being allocated for county roads. Yet when the Minister for Finance announced the amount of money from the tax amnesty being allocated to county roads the figure had fallen by £5 million to £15 million. Can the Minister account for the £5 million lost between Iveagh House and Leinster House?

The record will show that £26.6 million is allocated for this purpose.

The sum is £28.3 million.

It is £26.6 million.

Deputy Boylan without interruption.

The Minister's attempt to hang this problem on the necks of county councillors is not acceptable.

They gave the money to Croke Park.

It is an outrage and it is unacceptable, having regard to the position the Minister holds. He should apologise to county councillors who have worked hard to provide services in their areas in difficult times. During my time as a member of Cavan County Council I have met many councillors.

(Interruptions.)

With regard to the Minister's statement that the problem belongs to the local authorities, I must point out that the commercial rates raise £49,820 in my county, which is a fair yardstick of the position in many Border counties and the 12 western counties; 1p in the £ will raise £498. What rate does the Minister expect the council to strike to solve the problems now facing it when service charges in the county amount to £195 per household and £29.60 for commercial property? Does the Minister think that the unfortunate commercial ratepayer who finds it so hard to survive should be further burdened? I say no, that is not the way forward.

I will spell out how the funding can be raised. I will not get involved in political jibes and arguments without offering a solution. The responsibility rests on the heads of the Minister and his Minister of State. If they want the Mercs and perks they must take seriously their responsibilities.

I have a Nissan Sunny and I have not paid for it yet.

The responsibility cannot be passed on to people working in a voluntary capacity and providing a service from meagre funds.

The problems with our county roads go back to the major developments which took place after our entry into the EEC, the modification of our agricultural industry and the rationalisation of the co-operative movement——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Boylan without interruption, please.

This development was not matched by State contributions, as can be seen from the ever decreasing amount of rate support grants to local authorities who have been starved of the necessary funding to provide the infrastructure for the major development which took place in the agricultural and industrial sectors.

How can we solve the problem? A mystique exists, propagated by successive Ministers for the Environment, that roads must be constructed to an EU standard. There is no such thing as an EU road standard, to quote Miss Belinda Payne who works in Commissioner Bruce Millan's cabinet in the European Commission. On two occasions she stated clearly that the Commission does not set a standard for roads, the standard is a national standard. The £6 million per mile for Euro roads referred to by Deputy Molloy is the toy of the Minister and his advisers. This angers and frustrates the people who use the roads which are the subject of this motion. A former EU Commissioner and Minister for the Environment, Ray MacSharry, in his address to the General Council of County Councils in Ballyshannon clearly stated that there was no difficulty in securing 10 per cent of EU funds to transfer from national routes to non-national routes and, with a will on the part of the Government, this could be further increased.

The Deputy is forgetting——

(Interruptions.)

Ten per cent of £6 million per mile would give 30 miles of rural roads. There is a criteria, a cost-benefit relationship, which is accepted in Brussels.

(Interruptions.)

Is the Government proud of its potholes?

Ten per cent of £6 million per mile would open up a whole region and lead to further benefits. That is my first proposal.

In the short time available to me I wish to refer to the problem in my county, where it began. There is a particular problem in Cavan-Monaghan and the Border region. We live in the shadows of Northern Ireland; we are living in the war zone. Reference is made to peace but without good works peace will not bring the success we hope for, that is, the interaction of the two communities North and South. I propose a Marshall aid-type plan which will inject major capital spending in rebuilding the road surfaces in the Border region, Donegal, Sligo-Leitrim, Cavan-Monaghan and Louth.

How many Government Ministers and backbenchers who are smirking are aware that there are no openings to Northern Ireland from County Leitrim?

We are talking about county roads.

How many of them are aware that of the 15 roads into Northern Ireland only four are open in my county, with the national primary road having been cut off for the past 25 years? All the traffic from the North going to the South, southwest and midlands has had to travel through my county and has crushed the roads beyond repaid. Despite our best efforts — we got no help from Government — we were not able to keep the roads in a reasonable condition to enable that traffic to pass through the county.

On a point of order—

The Deputy should keep quiet.

Sit down.

(Interruptions.)

I am proposing that funding under a Marshall aid-type plan should come from the International Fund for Ireland, a by/product of the Garret FitzGerald inspired Anglo-Irish Agreement from which such benefits have come. If this funding is matched with funding from INTERREG we can create a fund which will rejuvenate that region.

I must make a serious point about the quality of the materials used in the construction of roads. There is no doubt that we have the raw materials necessary for this work. One would think we had to go to the Middle East or South Africa for gravel to make our roads. We have this raw material, if we could only extract it. There must be a quality standard for the materials used in the construction of roads, similar to the slump standard for mass concreate development. If we have a quality product we can get the job done. I am putting that proposal to the Minister to deal with the problem. It is up to him to tackle the problem and solve it. Go n-éirí an bóthar leat.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 47.

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Walsh, Joe.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
Barr
Roinn