I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
This is probably one of the most significant Bills this Government will introduce. It is also one of the most important. It is important because it deals with our democracy, and ways of strengthening it. It is important because it builds openness and trust in our democratic system. It is important because it provides a set of rules which will protect and enhance our democracy in an increasingly complex business and financial environment.
In that context I am looking forward to the debate on it, because I am sure that Members will share in the aims of the Bill — to strengthen our democratic structures and ensure that the public is served in the best possible manner by those they elect and by those chosen to serve them.
I am looking forward to the debate on this Bill which I hope will be a constructive one. I am sure it will be, because I know that Members share with me an aspiration to make our democracy more open, more accountable and more accessible to the needs of the people who have elected us. I sincerely hope that in the process of debating and passing this legislation we can begin the process of restoring trust in democracy. I hope we can dismantle some of the cynicism and negative perception of politics and politicians which undermines confidence in democratic institutions and in democracy itself.
It is appropriate that as we set out to debate this legislation, we restate our reasons for advancing it. The Bill is being enacted because the public has a right to know — a right to know what private interests could potentially influence the decisions policy-makers take, and a right to know that private and public interests are kept separate. The public has a right to know what interests their politicians have, not in order to jump to the immediate conclusion that those interests are affecting decisions made, but because bringing the information into the public domain effectively separates the public decision from the private interest.
This Bill provides a mechanism for achieving just that: in the first place by identifying the politicians' interests and, secondly, by providing a framework in which any potential conflict which might arise can be resolved. I know that for the vast majority of Members, the notion of allowing their private interests to influence any public decision they might make would be anathema to them. Indeed some commentators have suggested that the Bill is unnecessary and unduly intrusive. I want to categorically state that the Bill is not about catching politicians up to their tricks. The vast majority of Irish politicians are dedicated public servants who have entered politics to do good for the country, and not for personal advancement.
What the Bill represents, and I believe it is increasingly necessary, is a recognition that the financial and political life of this country has become much more complex. In that complex world the potential for conflicts of interest to arise has grown enormously. The mechanisms proposed in this Bill provide us with a way of acknowledging and dealing with that potential conflict so as to protect and enhance our democracy and our high standards of public service. It is not as if what is suggested in this Bill is new. A public register of interests by elected Members is a standard feature of democracies the world over. Our neighbours across the Irish Sea have taken it for granted for years, that on the day a person takes a seat in Parliament, he or she declare their interests. I am sure Deputy Currie, having served in parliaments outside the Twenty-six Counties, will understand that point very well. Our MEPs have been registering their interests for years. Nor is it an entirely new idea here. Members who have also served on local authorities will be aware of the requirement to declare their interests at that level. Most Members have quite happily and openly declared their interests at that level for years.
On the semi-State side, procedures were put in place in recent years requiring declaration of interests by members of boards of semi-State companies. This legislation does, for the first time, put such arrangements on a statutory basis. Given that the semi-State sector is an arm of the State, so to speak, and that in making decisions, directors and senior executives of State boards are acting on behalf of the public, on behalf of their shareholder the taxpayer, it is time that the system of disclosure of interests at this level was put on a statutory footing. The semi-State sector has expanded considerably in recent years, and with this expansion has come an increasing complexity of operation.
Given that complexity and the huge sums of public money involved, there is undoubtedly a potential for lapses from the high standards which the public expects. The clear statutory framework which the Bill provides will protect not only the taxpayer and the public interest, but also those charged with serving on their behalf in the public and semi-State sectors.
The independent commission set up under the Bill which has wide powers to investigate complaints and to carry out investigations on its own initiative is another powerful safeguard for the conduct of public business in our semi-State companies.
The Bill provides a similar framework for the disclosure of interests by senior civil and public servants in designated positions. This is not because we believe there are public officials with something to hide, but because of the need to recognise that times have changed. We have a tradition of public service of which we can be proud. In providing the system which this Bill proposes, we will safeguard a strong sense of confidence in the integrity of the public sector.
Let us look at what the Bill contains and the structures and requirements which it will put in place. It will establish a public Register of Interests for Members of the Oireachtas, including Ministers. Others in senior positions of public influence — board members and senior executives of State bodies, senior civil servants and senior special advisers — will also be required to put their interests on the record in an annual declaration. Those involved in policy execution, that is, Ministers, senior advisers, senior public servants and directors of State companies, will be required to declare relevant interests of their spouses and children, but on a confidential basis. Where a direct conflict of interest arises in the course of official duties for those covered by the Bill, that must be formally declared and put on record.
Civil servants and senior semi-State personnel are obliged under the Bill to stand aside from decisions in which they have a personal or family financial interest unless there are compelling written reasons otherwise. This requirement is being made a term of their job contracts or conditions of appointment. If somebody does not obey this requirement in a serious case they can be sacked.
Under the Bill TDs and Minister are not being asked to stand aside from the exercise of their constitutional and statutory functions, but they will be obliged to formally record if they have an interest in all cases.
In speaking or voting in the House, Members will be asked to make a formal declaration to the Clerk where they have an immediate personal, family or business interest in the matter in question. This will not apply where the interest is of a broad general character, for example as a mortgage holder, parent or a farmer. A select committee of the House will draw up guidelines for Members in this regard. The declaration will be simple —"I have an interest in this matter"— and will be formally recorded in the records of the House.
Under the Bill, expensive gifts to office holders will become State property. This has been long sought and I am sure will be widely welcomed.
Outside advice is valuable, and I am a strong supporter of a cabinet system which complements the work of an independent civil service. The Bill sets out new requirements regarding personal ministerial appointments, including advisers. It will be a statutory requirement under this legislation to publish the details of the appointment, including the person's qualifications for the job where it is a senior policy post. Ministers will have to make a public declaration if the appointee is a relative.
I would like to say at this point that there were lessons to be learned about how such appointments were handled. We have put those lessons to good use in the changes to procedures and in the completely open system for appointments now proposed in this legislation. I am sure these proposals will receive a warm welcome on the Opposition benches. It will be made a statutory requirement that all such appointments are temporary and end when the Minister's term of office ends. This has been the practice for many years but it is now being put on a statutory basis.
Advisers will be obliged to make a full public declaration of their interests by laying them before this House, and they will be prohibited from acting where they have a conflict of interest. The new rules apply equally to those employed in the normal way and to those working on contract.
The Bill is fair and reasonable in what it asks politicians to declare. In fact they are largely the same declarations as those already adopted by parliaments in other democracies. They include directorships and outside employment; valuable shareholdings; substantial property interests, other than the family home; paid positions as lobbyists and contracts held with public bodies; valuable gifts, other than normal gifts from family and friends. In essence, the legislation asks politicians to declare those interests which could potentially influence their decisions.
The Bill's structure is a complex one, but the principles it embodies are simple. The fundamental principle is openness and accountability — putting private interests on the table so that public and private business is seen to be kept separate and conflicts of interest avoided.
Public declarations are required of politicians and Minister's senior advisers, as people in the direct public eye. Other declarations under the Bill are made in private. We seek to strike a fair balance between the public's right to know and the individual's right to privacy.
Comprehensive listing of interests is required of those whose public duties are wide-ranging and not confined to any particular sector — Ministers, Members, senior advisers. People working in a Government Department or State company are required to list those of their interests which could have a bearing on their duties in that Department or company. For example, a senior civil servant in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry would be expected to declare shareholdings in agri-business, but would not normally be expected to declare shareholdings in a clothing company, unless it interferes with or arises in the course of their normal work.
If a potential conflict of interest arises in the course of official duties where a closely connected person — close family or business partner — would stand to gain significantly, that conflict of interest must be declared. The interests of connected persons come into the picture only where they are known, are relevant in terms of posing a potential conflict, and are not of a widely general character.
This relates to a specific financial interest which could affect the conduct of public business.
During the recent passports controversy, questions were raised as to how well this Bill would address the issues raised. I take this opportunity to clarify the situation with regard to this issue since I have no doubt that some Members will raise it during the debate.
Any Minister's interests will be a matter of public record, under the Second Schedule to the Bill. The Bill provides that where a Minister in the course of his job deals with a situation affecting himself and/or his family, he must declare it. That provision also covers a situation where an issue which could benefit any one Minister is brought before Cabinet by another Minister.
What the Bill, as it stands, does not cover, however, is a situation where the actions of one Minister could potentially benefit another Minister, if that action does not involve a Cabinet decision. I will therefore be proposing an important amendment to the Bill to cover this eventuality, and I look forward to having it discussed on Committee Stage.
I am sure one of the first questions which will be asked about this Bill is how we will ensure its provisions are carried out. Making sure it happens is an important feature of any legislation.
Under the proposed legislation, an independent and powerful commission will be established comprising the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Ombudsman, the Ceann Comhairle, and the Clerks of the Dáil and Seanad. This commission can investigate possible contraventions of the provisions of the legislation, on its own initiative or on foot of a complaint. It has wide powers to summon witnesses and send for records to help it in its task. The members of the commission will be independent in the performance of their functions.
It is worth noting that compliance with the terms of the Bill will be part of the term of appointment of designated public servants, senior executives and board members of State bodies, as well as special advisers.
There will be separate investigation arrangements for Members of the House, since under the Constitution each House of the Oireachtas regulates its own affairs. A select committee of each House will investigate any complaints about ordinary Members while the commission will include office holders in its remit.
The Bill creates a number of offences, including non-compliance with an investigation, as well as the unauthorised disclosure of confidential information. It updates our prevention of corruption legislation dating from 1889 to 1916 to ensure it applies to the complex modern state, and brings penalties into line with modern money values.
Part 1 of the Bill covers the normal provisions for commencement, definitions and regulations. Part 2 deals with declarations by Oireachtas Members, and the setting up of select committees to oversee this area of the Bill. This part will be brought into effect by resolution of each House, and the first registration is required within two months after the resolution is adopted.
Part 3 deals with office holders and the requirement to make additional confidential declarations of family interests and gifts to office holders. Part 4 deals with the public sector — senior civil and public servants, senior advisers, directors and senior executives, and with personal appointments by office holders.
Part 5 sets up the independent commission and gives it powers in relation to conducting an investigation. Part 6 deals with various miscellaneous procedures and with enforcement.
The First Schedule specifies the public bodies which may be designated by the Minister for Finance to be covered by the Bill's provisions. The Second Schedule sets out the interests which Oireachtas Members are required to register.
This Bill contains a lot of rules, but as any parent, or indeed good lawyer, will tell you, all the rules in the world will not make people behave if they do not want to behave and as any good legislator will tell you, you cannot legislate for morality either.
We must aspire, however, to high standards in public life, and these standards should be reflected in our legislation. We must have a system where lapses from those high standards can be laid open to public scrutiny. For politicians, the ultimate judges of standards in public life are the electorate, and the ultimate judgment is at the ballot box, but the Ethics in Public Office Bill is about a lot more than putting in place a set of rules for those who serve the public.
The Bill is about building trust in our public and democratic institutions. It is about opening up doors on areas which because they have been private, have generated suspicion and innuendo. By showing that politicians have nothing to hide, it can only enhance confidence in the political system.
The Bill is part of a broader package of measures to strengthen our democracy and let in the light. The Electoral Bill, now at a final stage with the parliamentary draftsman will give effect to the Programme for Government commitments on disclosure of political donations, ceilings on election spending and State funding of political parties. I am preparing freedom of information proposals which can make Ireland a model for open government and open administration.
