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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Jun 1994

Vol. 444 No. 5

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Display of Artifacts-Works of Art.

Máirín Quill

Ceist:

6 Miss Quill asked the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht the plans, if any, he has to have artifacts and works of art, currently stored out of public view in our national institutions, relocated and put on display in suitable public buildings in provincial towns and cities; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Desmond J. O'Malley

Ceist:

9 Mr. O'Malley asked the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht the plans, if any, he has to have artifacts and works of art, currently stored out of public view in our national institutions, relocated and put on display in suitable public buildings in provincial towns and cities; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Tógfaidh mé Ceisteanna Uimh. a 6 agus Uimh. a 9 le chéile.

As I indicated in reply to similar parliamentary questions on 7 July 1993 — columns 1453-1456 of the Official Report — the question of loaning State artifacts from the national collections is primarily one for the national cultural institutions themselves. Before any such loan can be made the host institution must satisfy the highest standards of security, curation and environmental controls. In the case of the National Museum of Ireland, a further stipulation is that loans can only be made available to a country, city or other museum operated by a local authority, as I indicated in my reply of 25 May 1994, columns 345-346 of the Official Report.

An Chomhairle Ealaíon has a collection of contemporary art created over the past 30 years, numbering in excess of 700 works. It is the policy of An Chomhairle to make these works available to publicly accessible buildings throughout the country and this policy is pursued with vigour to the extent that the greater part of An Chomhairle's collection at any given time is on loan to institutions throughout the State. Public agencies may apply to An Chomhairle Ealaíon for works on loan, a condition of which is that the agency insures and otherwise properly maintains the works on loan.

I fully support this policy of prudent management which is designed to ensure the widest possible access to our heritage consistent with the integrity and safety of the national collections for posterity.

It is difficult to accept the caution that informs the policy implemented by officials of the National Museum and National Gallery. Will the Minister accept that there is a perception that works of art, particularly those in the ownership of the National Gallery or the National Museum, would not be properly displayed or cared for if they were given on loan to public galleries. libraries or other suitable public buildings in cities and towns throughout the country? Will the Minister accept that there is a cultural imperialism, from which I thought we had walked away, that to be housed properly such works of art must be put on view in the capital city? Will the Minister agree that there is no justification for housing works of arts in the basement of the National Gallery when they could be displayed adequately and properly in galleries, public libraries or other public buildings in provincial towns and cities and that there is no justification——

The Deputy has made her point adequately.

I trust I have made it in a manner that will prompt the Minister to initiate a policy that will bring about change in this regard. It is disgraceful that we should deny the people of Ireland access to such works of art.

I must call on the Minister to reply and advise the Deputy against making a speech at this stage.

I do not believe anybody would argue against environmental controls and the functions of curation, in other words, the making safe of the object or painting involved. Adequate display management must apply. Under recent legislation which I introduced valuable heritage works were made the property of all the people of Ireland and I do not believe any of us would argue against the laying down of proper conditions.

I share the Deputy's view in regard to cultural imperialism. However, before making such statements she should give precise examples of where criteria were met and works refused. The matter could then be dealt with through the institution or my Department. If valuable artifacts which are part of our heritage are to be displayed in good locations and properly cared for, institutions should be brought up to the required standard. In that way national collections could be national by being accessible to as many people as possible. That would be the proper way to deal with the Deputy's concern.

What the Minister described as host institutions throughout the country would be in much more serious financial difficulties if they gave serious consideration to what the Minister said. Will he accept that paintings currently in the basement of the National Gallery could be hung in the Crawford Gallery in Cork? That is merely one example of a host institution which could provide a similar level of care and display space as the National Gallery. As the Minister invited me to be precise, another institution which could meet similar criteria——

Ceisteanna le do thoil, a Theachta.

—— is the central library in Grand Parade, Cork. I am sure there are a number of institutions in Kilkenny, Galway and Waterford which could meet the necessary requirements the Curator of the National Museum or National Gallery put on the display of a work of national importance.

I have difficulty accepting everything the Deputy said. I do not know of which painting she speaks. Is it in public ownership or part of a collection that is not in public ownership? Those are important matters. There is no point in conducting a straw person to attack in this regard. The more works that are displayed in public venues the better. There are many valuable and wonderful private collections in Cork city, the owners of which the Deputy should persuade to lend for short term display in the institutions she mentioned.

That is not the point.

The Deputy should translate her allegations into precise statements about the paintings, the circumstances and institutions to which she refers and I will have the matter investigated.

Is the Minister satisfied that the worthwhile criteria in regard to artifacts and works of art held outside the national institutions are applied in a non-restrictive manner? There is a tendency, although not necessarily in respect of the National Gallery, for institutions to establish criteria and use them as a blocking device to ensure that nothing leaves their control. Is the Minister satisfied that is not the case in these circumstances? Will he undertake to examine how criteria are implemented as distinct from being put in writing?

I am grateful for the spirit of the Deputy's supplementary question which enables me to repeat what I said in reply to Deputy Quill. When Deputies outline specific instances it enables me to investigate the day-to-day management of the criteria. I would go further than that suggested by the Deputies. Cultural institutions are what I would term independent autonomies with responsibility. They are independent but have a responsibility to the cultural life of the nation. I will investigate any cases where it is alleged the criteria are being abused and not interpreted in a proper manner. Local and regional museums can take up matters of concern with the newly established museums authority. When the Arts Council lends valuable works it insists that they are housed in buildings accessible to wheelchairs. That complies with the perception in this House that people with a physical disability should not be excluded from access to collections of art. I will consider the matters raised by the Deputies.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I share the Minister's concern about the protection of our artifacts and so on. Will he accept that in order to protect such works of art it is easier to have them in cellars and basements in the National Museum than lend them to museums throughout the country where they would be more meaningful for people? For example, a stone axe head found in my home parish, Bennakerry, is probably buried in a museum here. If it was on display in Carlow would it not mean much more to local people in creating a link with the past? Are we not overplaying the safety aspect? Who will run away with these objects from museums throughout the country where many valuable objects are on display? There is a need to strike a balance. We could overplay the safety and protection aspects and never put anything on display.

I am grateful to the Deputy for using the word "balance" because it is necessary to strike a balance. As he is aware, the national monuments legislation which is proceeding through this House will make the heritage of Ireland the property of its people based on the fundamental principle that from the moment the people declared themselves independent they declared their right to their heritage. That being so we are under an obligation to conserve it. The more knowledge people have the more public support there will be for it and the greater the public outcry the more opprobrium there should be against those people who have gathered parts of our heritage from islands, monasteries and graveyards to put them on the market place. I hope also that the legislation will bring to an end the mentality that there are parts of our heritage on which private gatherers can put the stamp of private property. When people abuse any aspect of our heritage they are stealing from the people. That matter will be dealt with in the legislation. I will try to see how a balance can be struck because the more people are aware of their heritage the greater the public support for strong legislation and sanctions to protect it.

Deputy Quill rose.

I am anxious to make progress on other questions. Perhaps a brief question, Deputy.

During the summer holidays I will make it my business to find out what works of art and paintings are being stored. Does the Minister accept that the Committee of Public Accounts was told less than two years ago that it was then costing more than £30,000 to store certain paintings out of view in the National Gallery? Does he also accept that these paintings could be put on exhibition adequately in galleries throughout the country?

I was not in Government at that time. In carrying out renovations at the National Gallery and moving the administration to another building there will be extra exhibition space in the gallery. I am delighted that there has been an unprecedented increase in the number of people seeking to visit the gallery. It makes no sense to keep paintings where they cannot be displayed. When the Deputy returns to this theme, as undoubtedly she will, I would welcome——

One year down the road.

The issue of ownership must be addressed and the issue of the gift and the particular paintings that are in mind. I am doing everything possible to make sure that what we have will be displayed as widely as possible. In extending and refurbishing the gallery and in moving the administration out there will be more space when the gallery reopens to put material on display. There is also a case for saying — this is important — that national institutions are exactly that. We should put the thought behind us that we have to punish Dublin to be good to the regions.

That is not the point.

It is not the Deputy's point but it is mine and I am answering the question she asked. The citizens of Dublin and those in the rest of the country must be treated equally. Neither case is advanced when a foolish polarity is drawn between them.

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