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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Oct 1994

Vol. 445 No. 6

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Peace Process.

John Bruton

Ceist:

1 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he discussed his proposal for an all-Ireland body or bodies with executive functions with the British Prime Minister at their meeting in Corfu; and if such a body or bodies would constitute a change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland of a kind that would require the consent of the people of Northern Ireland in accordance with the Anglo-Irish Agreement. [114/94]

Alan Shatter

Ceist:

2 Mr. Shatter asked the Taoiseach if his attention has been drawn to reports that members of the Provisional IRA have been intimidating people residing in nationalist areas and engaging in their own form of so-called policing and punishments; whether this is an issue he has discussed with Mr. Gerry Adams and members of Sinn Féin; and the action, if any, being taken by the Government to bring such conduct to an end. [441/94]

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

3 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach when he intends to hold the deferred Anglo-Irish summit with the British Prime Minister; if the proposed framework document will be ready for this meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [541/94]

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

4 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if, in his contacts with Sinn Féin, he has raised the matter of the continued operation of so-called punishment squads in Northern Ireland who have carried out a number of attacks with iron bars on young people, inflicting serious injury in some cases; his views on whether these activities are consistent with the joint statement issued following the meeting in Government Buildings on 6 September 1994, to the effect that Sinn Féin was totally and absolutely committed to democratic and peaceful methods; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [542/94]

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

5 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his recent joint meeting with Mr. Gerry Adams and Mr. John Hume. [545/94]

Proinsias De Rossa

Ceist:

6 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on political developments with regard to Northern Ireland since the announcement by the IRA of its cessation of military operations. [546/94]

John Bruton

Ceist:

7 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Mr. Gerry Adams; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [607/94]

Mary Harney

Ceist:

8 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the steps, if any, that can be taken to ensure that the IRA hand up its weaponry thereby reassuring the people of Ireland and Britain that its complete cessation of military operations is permanent and irrevocable; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [678/94]

Mary Harney

Ceist:

9 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach his views on the spate of so-called punishment beatings by the IRA in Belfast; his views on whether this is compatible with that organisation's declaration that is has ceased all military operations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [679/94]

John Bruton

Ceist:

10 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he has raised with Mr. Gerry Adams a newspaper report (details supplied) regarding a Sinn Féin councillor who participated in punishment beatings, including one of an 18 year old Derry man who had his legs broken, on the grounds that the community had a right to respond to crime as they see fit. [885/94]

John Bruton

Ceist:

11 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he has asked Mr. Gerry Adams, at his recent meeting to ask the IRA to put its store of arms out of commission and to cease all paramilitary activity, such as punishment beatings; and, if not, the reason therefor. [889/94]

John Bruton

Ceist:

12 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he has received any representations concerning punishment beatings by the IRA on either side of the Border. [891/94]

John Bruton

Ceist:

13 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the way in which proposed cross-Border bodies who are to be jointly financed by the Exchequer and H.M. Treasury are to be accountable to Dáil Éireann. [894/94]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 13, inclusive, together.

Sir, my office has informed the Ceann Comhairle's office that the wording of Question No. 10 in my name has been incorrectly transcribed onto the Order Paper in the General Office. My question referred to a Sinn Féin councillor who justified punishment beatings, not participated in punishment beatings. I do not know how that word came to be used as it is not the word I used. I have checked the text I supplied to the General Office and it contained the word "justified".

I heard of the matter some minutes ago. I deem it to be a typographical error and I propose to rectify it by stating that the words "participated in" be deleted and the word "justified" be inserted on the second line.

The Chair will understand that I have had to raise the matter now because the Taoiseach is proposing to take 13 questions together.

I inform the House that 30 minutes only are provided for dealing with Taoiseach's questions on this day.

The IRA ceasefire announcement, ending its campaign from I September, was a truly momentous development, allowing the peoples of Ireland and Britain to emerge from the shadows of violence into a new era of hope. The announcement of a complete cessation of violence and its definitive commitment to the success of the democratic peace process marked an historic turning point, and in my judgment clearly involved, and was intended to involve on the part of the IRA, a permanent end to the use of, or support for, paramilitary violence. This judgment has been completely borne out in the subsequent six weeks. A speedy and pro-active response was necessary to help consolidate the commitments given in the ceasefire statement and thus decisively to advance the peace process.

I appreciate that many people — particularly in the Unionist community — are apprehensive and uncertain about the new era now emerging. That is very understandable after 25 years of sustained violence and terror. Violence has diminished trust and deepened the divide between the two traditions in Northern Ireland, as well as between North and South. The IRA ceasefire announcement challenges us all to start building bridges of trust across our historical antagonisms, accepting that each tradition holds an indispensable part of the solution.

My decision, along with Mr. John Hume, MEP, to meet with Mr. Gerry Adams six days after the ceasefire announcement was guided by the absolute conviction that, in the IRA statement, the Republican movement was acknowledging a full and unequivocal commitment to the democratic peace process, and stating in a binding way that it would not attempt any further to resolve problems or remedy injustices by the use of force. Developments since 1 September strongly vindicate that view.

The joint statement issued by myself, Mr. Hume and Mr. Adams at our meeting on 6 September is of great significance. In it, the leader of Sinn Féin joins us in giving a total and absolute commitment to democratic methods of resolving our political problems. He commits his party to our shared objective of an equitable and lasting agreement that can command the allegiance of all. Furthermore, there is a clear and unequivocal acknowledgement that the problem cannot be resolved without the participation and agreement of the Unionist people.

These clearly stated commitments, when taken in conjunction with the IRA ceasefire announcement, constitute a tremendous breakthrough for everyone on this island. The cessation of violence is for real, it is for good. The statement issued by IRA prisoners in the Maze on 9 September confirms that the ceasefire will hold "in all circumstances". Further statements made by the Sinn Féin leadership lend even greater authority to that commitment.

The recent spate of so-called punishment beatings in both communities are indefensible acts. Such acts of brutality add an unnecessary negative dimension to our collective efforts towards advancement of the peace process by damaging public confidence. The problems and structure of policing is an issue that will have to be addressed at an early stage so that full public confidence in a regular policing system be established in all areas. Our concerns in that regard have been made known to Sinn Féin.

We now need to build on the IRA cessation of violence. A complete peace naturally demands a similar action by all paramilitary groups. In that regard, the Tánaiste and I are encouraged that loyalist paramilitaries are engaged in a process of deliberation with a view to calling a ceasefire. Time and space may be required by them before a definitive decision is reached but, in the meantime, violent attacks, of which there have been a number right up to the present, should cease forthwith. No understandable purpose can be served by a continuation. The use of force as an instrument of change is outdated and counter-productive to the advancement of any political objective. The Downing Street Declaration removed any justification for violence, either loyalist or republican.

An atmosphere of complete peace would facilitate a gradual process of demilitarisation and the safe and permanent disposal of weapons and explosives held by paramilitary organisations on all sides, so that they can never be used again. Our security forces have had great success in recent years in locating and destroying weaponry for use by paramilitary organisations, and these efforts will continue.

An onerous responsibility rests on all to grasp the unique opportunity which now exists to reach political agreement in an environment of peace. The two Governments are well advanced in our efforts to formulate a joint framework document that would constitute our shared understanding on the broad outlines of a settlement. It is our intention that these discussions will be finalised in advance of my next meeting with the British Prime Minister which will take place over the coming weeks.

I would like to reassure both communities that the purpose of this document is to assist a subsequent all-party talks process. Our approach is guided by the fundamental reality that an eventual political settlement will require the participation, agreement and consent of both traditions. The two Governments have made that position very clear. The British Prime Minister stated on 16 September that any new agreement would be put to a referendum in the North. For our part, the Tánaiste and I have stated in the Programme for a Partnership Government that "since the final outcome of such negotiations will need to be acceptable to the people North and South, we will seek endorsement in a referendum for an agreed package". I want to repeat that commitment here today. Concurrent referendums. North and South, on any substantial new agreement follow logically from the Downing Street Declaration, which speaks of giving effect to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment. The undertakings given in that regard should provide both traditions with the necessary reassurance in terms of their shared political future.

An ongoing review of progress in the joint framework document discussions features prominently in my contacts with John Major, including at our meeting in the margins of the European Council meeting in Corfu at the end of June. In view of the complexity and sensitivity of the issues involved, I do not propose to bring into the public domain any aspect of the ongoing discussions on the document in advance of intergovernmental agreement being reached.

I repeat that a constitutional balance is essential if the necessary allegiance of each tradition to an eventual agreement is to be secured. The assurance to Unionists on Northern Ireland's constitutional status being conditional upon majority consent there, needs to be balanced by a reformulation of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, to reflect agreement that the wishes of the people are paramount, and by a strong all-Ireland institutional dimension to accommodate not just the Nationalist identity, but also the practical needs of both communities and both parts of Ireland to give effect to the European Single Market on this island. In short, an agreed settlement demands the achievement of a balance between the two sets of rights, allegiances and aspirations and the establishment of common interests and positions between them.

With flexibility on all sides, the Tánaiste and I are confident that through a process of democratic dialogue and persuasion, conducted in an atmosphere of peace and goodwill, we can and will agree a new political accommodation founded on consent and respect for difference. In our search for agreement, we can all take heart from the many obstacles already overcome. The prospect of an Ireland at peace with its historic diversities is now within reach, but we all need to work hard in a spirit of generosity to achieve that goal.

I will be calling the Deputies in the order in which their questions appear on the Order Paper. Deputy John Bruton.

Is it the Taoiseach's opinion that the IRA is continuing to engage in punishment beatings in parts of his island? Does he consider that punishment beatings represent paramilitary violence and is he aware that such parliamilitary violence continued after the cessation of violence was announced by the IRA? When the Taoiseach met the leader of Sinn Féin did he ask him about punishment beatings? Did the Taoiseach say he believed these should stop? Did he ask Mr. Adams to use his influence with the IRA — and undoubtedly he has influence with the IRA regardless of whether he is a member of it — to bring these punishment beatings to an end? In particular, did the Taoiseach raise with Mr. Adams the fact that a Sinn Féin councillor, Mr. Alex Maskey, sought specifically to justify punishment beatings? I draw attention to the fact that these punishment beatings occur with the use of an iron bar and people's legs are being broken. These are not simply bar room brawls, we are talking about people being admitted to hospital with their legs broken as a result of punishment beatings administered apparently by the IRA, an organisation which we are asked to believe has ceased support for violence. Is this use of punishment beatings in Nationalist areas reconcilable with the commitment to non-violence?

The punishment beatings to which Deputy Bruton referred came to our notice subsequent to the meeting with Mr. Hume and Mr. Adams but I have made my position abundantly clear to Sinn Féin and indeed I have said it publicly also. I strongly disapprove of any such beatings which run counter to all our efforts to establish confidence in the peace process. I have made that position abundantly clear publicly and indeed to Sinn Féin and on my next meeting, whenever that occurs. I will certainly again raise the matter fully with Mr. Adams.

I welcome the Taoiseach's statement that the punishment beatings are indefensible acts but when did the Taoiseach specifically tell Sinn Féin that they are unacceptable? Will the Taoiseach tell the House what response, if any, he received from Mr. Adams or any member of Sinn Féin to the statement that punishment beatings are unacceptable? Will the Taoiseach agree that it is not acceptable for Sinn Féin to participate in any democratic forum when it is prepared to engage in punishment beatings to terrorise members of the Nationalist population while, at the same time, further undermining the confidence of the Unionist population?

My strong condemnation and that of the Government of such beatings has been conveyed to Sinn Féin at every opportunity. In regard to the specific dates, I will certainly examine the files and forward that information to Deputy Shatter.

What response has the Taoiseach received from Sinn Féin? None.

I await a response.

Proinsias de Rossa

What response did the Taoiseach receive from Sinn Féin regarding punishment beatings? Has it given a commitment to use its influence with the IRA to have these beatings stopped? Will he impress on it the need to lift the threats of expulsion which have resulted in many young people being expelled not only from their homes but from Ireland, and forced to live abroad? Will the Taoiseach indicate when the deferred Anglo-Irish summit will take place and if it is expected that the framework document will be ready by the end of this month, as reported?

The intention is that negotiations on the framework document will be completed before we fix a definitive date for the meeting between the British Prime Minister, John Major, and myself. I have not received any response to our condemnation of the punishments referred to, but I will be glad to make Deputies aware of it when I receive it. I will take every opportunity to condemn them because they are indefensible acts. I have made inquiries about expulsions and to the best of my knowledge — I do not say this is 100 per cent accurate — there is no evidence of such. However, if the Deputy has evidence of expulsions I would like to hear from him and would make the same strong representations regarding them. During the course of my inquiries I came across cases of people who were expelled from particular areas but who are now back in those areas and on whom there is no pressure to leave again.

Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the British Government is doing enough to maintain the momentum of the peace process?

I expressed that concern to the Prime Minister, John Major. when I spoke to him on the telephone. He is committed to the objective to which we are committed that violence ceases for ever. I explained to him that we believe the process should be consolidated and underpinned at the earliest possible moment because if a vacuum is allowed develop it could endanger the peace process. We do not want that to happen. I will be in touch with the Prime Minister again. I expect to receive a letter from him today setting out his views to which I will respond before the end of the week and will make the point Deputy Harney is making to me, which is that the time has now come, in the sixth week of peace, to accelerate the response of the British Government to ensure we are all seen to underpin the peace process. The British Government should exert whatever pressure it can to ensure a cessation of violence by loyalist paramilitaries.

Is support for punishment beatings by Sinn Féin compatible with participation in the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation? Has the Taoiseach asked Mr. Adams to ask the IRA what purpose the semtex the IRA has stored serves, where violence has ceased? Has the Taoiseach asked Mr. Adams if Sinn Féin accepts that in a referendum on both sides of the Border on a joint settlement, either side has the right to say either "no" or "yes" to an agreed settlement? Has he discerned whether Sinn Féin accepts the right of the electorate of Northern Ireland or of the Republic to say "no"?

The Government, as I stated many times in the House, is clearly and absolutely committed to the consent principle. The Deputy should be well aware of that. It is our continuing position.

At my first meeting with Gerry Adams I raised the prospect of the destruction of arms in due course and he said that was a matter that would have to be addressed in talks, but that we only see one set of paramilitaries cease violence and the next step is for the loyalists to cease violence. The destruction of arms is a matter for talks down the line, as indicated by the Tánaiste.

On a point of order——

Deputy Bruton, please. I am calling Deputy De Rossa.

I have put down six questions. The Chair said he would take them in order.

The Chair is seeking to be fair and impartial in the matter. I have called Deputy de Rossa.

I have more questions down than any other Member.

I appreciate Members have a number of questions down.

Will the Taoiseach indicate if he expects the framework document to be ready by the end of this month or when will it be completed? I welcome the fact that we have had six weeks of freedom from IRA shootings and bombings. Will the Taoiseach indicate if he has made any attempt to talk to Unionist politicians with a view to encouraging the cessation of violence by loyalist paramilitaries? Clearly, that is a necessary prerequisite to serious progress being made.

The Taoiseach asked me for evidence regarding expulsions. The organisation, Families Against Intimidation and Terror, informs me that people are still prevented by the IRA from returning to their homes. Perhaps if I pass on the address of the organisation to the Taoiseach his Department will get the information from them.

I appeal for brevity, having regard to the time factor involved, in dealing with questions to the Taoiseach today.

I appreciate what the Deputy is saying and I will be glad to follow up any details he gives me. There is another meeting next week between the civil servants of both Governments and we hope to have the document completed by the end of the month.

I agree with the Deputy that the next stage must be a cessation of violence by loyalist paramilitaries. No one should be under any illusion that the road to consolidating the peace process will be simple and straightforward. We will encounter difficulties along the way. We have a new opportunity, a new hope for the future and a new expectation. Things are changing in both communities in Northern Ireland but things are happening which we would like to think would not happen. We will have to recognise what is going on and try to get it out of the way. It will not be easy or straightforward but the prize at the end of the day is worth striving for.

The Taoiseach must have misheard my earlier question. I did not ask him if the Government supported the consent principle, as I know it does. I asked him if Sinn Féin supports it and if he has been able to so discern in his discussions with that organisation. Will the package to be put in a referendum to people on both sides of the Border include an amendment to Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution? Will the establishment of the joint bodies, with executive authority, on an all-Ireland basis require an amendment to the Constitution in that they will trench on the authority of Dáil Éireann by way of their brief including accountability to a body not accountable to Dáil Éireann, namely a Northern Ireland assembly of some kind? Is it not likely that the final package put to the people on this side of the Border will involve three separate referenda on the same day, one on the package as a whole, another on Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution and another on the joint bodies in so far as they trench on the authority of the Dáil and Seanad?

Deputy Bruton is trying to jump ahead of himself and everyone else. For obvious reasons, as I made clear in my reply, these are sensitive issues that must be dealt with between the two Governments in the first instance and between all parties in the second instance. Consequently, it is not my intention to debate every aspect of every proposal put forward during the talks on the framework document or during the talks between the two Governments to finalise the document. I hope the Deputy appreciates this point.

In regard to his question about the position of Sinn Féin. Deputy Bruton is well aware of the proposed terms of reference for the forum. I see these issues being properly addressed within the forum, and that is where we intend to address them.

Did the Taoiseach at his recent meeting with Mr. Adams express concern about the vast amount of weaponry and armaments in the possession of the IRA? Did he discuss with Mr. Adams the need for these weapons to be either handed up or safely disposed of?

As I have already made clear, I raised that issue at our first meeting, which was not very long. Many issues had to be discussed at that meeting and I raised that issue. As I have said, the next obvious step is a cessation of military operations by the loyalist paramilitaries. The question of the destruction of armaments can then be discussed between the security forces on both sides. The British Government has to engage in discussions with Sinn Féin, which it has said it will do after a period, and this is one of the questions which will have to be addressed in these discussions. I have made it clear that the destruction of armaments will have to be on the agenda down the line, but we have to take it step by step; this is a step by step process. We are all aware of the number of arms held and if the peace process is to be consolidated for all time then the destruction of these arms must be addressed.

I want to bring matters to finality. I will try to facilitate the three. Deputies offering but they must be very brief as the time for dealing with questions to the Taoiseach is almost exhausted. A brief question, Deputy Bruton.

Will the Taoiseach not agree that it is important for questions to be asked in good time rather than after the event? If there is a potential problem in regard to, for example, the authority of the Dáil vis-a-vis an all-Ireland body with executive authority, the time to ask questions is now, not afterwards. Will the Taoiseach agree that on occasion the legal advisers to the Government got themselves into some difficulty because they did not anticipate constitutional problems before the event and waited until afterwards? Will he further agree that in raising questions about these so-called long term issues the Opposition is serving a useful democratic propose and deserves an answer?

Brevity, please.

Deputy Bruton can be assured that the issues he raised are addressed by the Government as they arise. I have no intention of going into the specific details of the negotiations at this stage because no one can know what will be agreed at the end of the day.

Does the Taoiseach know the answer?

The Deputy can take it from me that the Government will address all aspects of the situations which may arise in future.

Recognising that all of us have obviously to exercise a degree of sensitivity in regard to the current situation, will the Taoiseach acknowledge that the principle of consent, which all parties in this House and in the British Parliament have accepted, has not been accepted by Sinn Féin in those terms? It has explicitly rejected the Downing Street Joint Declaration and we should not pretend otherwise, although there is a necessity to engage it in dialogue to try to convince it.

We did not lay down an absolute condition that every aspect, line and word of the Downing Street Joint Declaration had to be accepted before entry into the forum for peace and reconciliation. If every issue was answered and cleared up there would be no need for a forum. The forum is the proper place for consultations and debate to take place between parties. I have also made it clear at every opportunity that entry into the forum will not in any way interfere with the principles, commitments, psychology or policy of any party. Let us have a genuine forum where we can address all the problems which need to be addressed and which are dividing the two communities in the North. Parts of the Downing Street Joint Declaration clearly pose problems for some people and they can seek to resolve these within the forum.

With regard to coercing the Unionist population into a united Ireland, Sinn Féin has made in clear on a number of occasions that it will not use coercion as an instrument to force people into a united Ireland. The statement issued after the meeting between John Hume, Gerry Adams and me should be studied very closely. It states that the problems cannot be resolved without the involvement and agreement of the Unionist population. Many statements need to be closely scrutinised. The forum for peace and reconciliation is being set up to do a particular job and issues such as the ones raised here can be fully discussed in the forum.

Deputies Jim O'Keeffe and Austin Currie have intimated to me that they wish to put very brief questions, and I take their word on that.

At various times the Taoiseach and others have used the terms "demilitarisation". Will the Taoiseach tell the House what that term means to him and what it demands of all parties, including the British parties, in terms of timing and substance? I gather that there is continuing evidence of racketeering and intimidation in the North. Does the Taoiseach believe that a continuation of racketeering in Northern Ireland has the support of the leadership of the republican and loyalist elements? Yesterday the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Sir Patrick Mayhew, made a remark to the effect that the British Government may never be in a position to say that it accepts the IRA cease-fire is permanent. That remark seems odd and out of context. What is the Taoiseach's reaction to it?

If this is an example of Deputy O'Keeffe's definition of brief I would not like him to ask me a long question. In regard to his final question, during my last telephone conversation with him John Major assured me that every day brought him closer to acceptance of the real position about the cessation of military operations and he would not delay a decision by the British Government any longer than necessary. He also pointed out the importance — we all recognise the need for this — of having the confidence of the British people and Unionist population in any steps he takes along the road. I have no doubt that the two of us are heading in the same direction. Both Governments know where they want to finish and we will arrive there in due course.

I totally deplore any criminal activity and I have no doubt that the security forces in the North will deal with the type of racketeering to which Deputy O'Keeffe referred. I do not have any substantial evidence that such racketeering is taking place and if it exists I am sure the security forces will take full cognisance of it. There will always be problems associated with our efforts to consolidate the peace process and we have to deal with each issue as it arises. There is much support on the ground for the peace process and hopefully peace will be achieved at the end of the day.

A final brief question from Deputy Austin Currie.

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, for giving me the opportunity to ask one of the dozen or so questions I would like to ask the Taoiseach. When the Taoiseach next meets Gerry Adams, in addition to the matters of immediate importance which he has been urged to raise with him, for example, exclusion orders, enabling people to come back to Northern Ireland and the cessation of punishment beatings, will he ask him if he will make arrangements to inform relatives of the whereabouts of a number of bodies so that they can be returned to them for a Christian burial, thereby enabling personal affairs to be dealt with? That is one simple question he ought be able to answer.

The answer is very clear: yes, I will raise that question at the next meeting.

That disposes of questions to the Taoiseach for today.

May I request that questions in my name to the Taoiseach remain on the Order Paper tomorrow?

I will consider that matter.

The same in respect of mine, please.

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