Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Dec 1994

Vol. 447 No. 7

Business of Dáil.

The Tánaiste

The party Leaders had a further meeting some time ago and, as I stated earlier, we are anxious to accommodate the passage of the legislation in the shortest possible period. Following discussion with the party leaders, it is proposed that the second Bill — the short version giving privilege to Members appearing before the committee — will be taken tomorrow. It is hoped the Bill will be finalised by the Government at a meeting shortly after the House adjourns. The Attorney General continues to work on submissions I have given him from the Fianna Fáil Party, and from Deputies Bruton, Harney and Spring, as well as further considering matters from the earlier Bill, the compellability of witnesses legislation, which we also had before us in draft form today. He was to have provided me with a note for the commencement of this session but, unfortunately, he was unable to get it to me on time. I presume we will have that note in time for the Cabinet meeting.

It is the intention that the Bill will be published later tonight. The Bills Office stated it will take approximately two and a half hours from the time of the Cabinet meeting for the Bill to be published. Because of the legal and constitutional difficulties and other matters, and from previous experience in this House, the party leaders are in agreement that to put all Stages of this Bill through both Houses of the Oireachtas tomorrow would be improper. It is proposed, therefore, that Second Stage of the Bill be taken from 10.30 a.m. to 4 p.m. tomorrow. There is also a temporary proposal that the House will meet at midday on Tuesday next to take Committee and remaining Stages and the Seanad will meet later on Tuesday night. The Bill will then be referred to the President on Wednesday. That proposal is subject to change because some people, within the House or outside it, may wish to consider the Bill or some of the constitutional or other matters that might arise from it, although we believe our Bill, as mentioned by the Taoiseach this morning, stands the best chance of holding its position against any challenge. That is a matter for the President in the final instance but others may wish to offer their points of view and they will have an opportunity to do that over the weekend. I believe I speak for all party leaders when I say we hope people will examine the Bill over the weekend so that we will at least have a clear position and ensure that the legislation we will endeavour to pass on Tuesday night will stand any test. However, that is a matter for others.

Without making any strong political point, I think we realise that the matters I and the Minister of State stated here on Tuesday did not amount to window-dressing or filibustering. They were valid parliamentary points and I believe the House is now proceeding in the way we should have done on Tuesday. However, that is history. Because of the way we are now proceeding, the legislation will be passed but, we should consider the second issue over the weekend and refer it to the Whips to determine the best way of structuring an investigative committee. The view is held that the large committee which sat yesterday is perhaps not the best way to proceed but it is a matter for the Whips to reflect on tomorrow and we will stand over their report.

In summary, the Bill will be published later tonight, subject to the clearance of the Attorney General and the Cabinet meeting. There will be no delay by my party in that regard. The House will sit tomorrow from 10.30 a.m. to 4 p.m. to take Second Stage of the Bill and, all going well, both Houses will sit next Tuesday to take Committee and remaining Stages. The Bill will then be referred to the President on Wednesday and if everything is in order — a matter totally for the President, not for me or the House — we will then deal with the matter on Thursday in whatever committee is decided.

I have now received the note, which is fairly long, from the Attorney General.

Mr. Dukes

Will the Deputy read it this time?

Mr. N. Treacy

Smart alec.

Mr. Dukes

Is Deputy Treacy awake?

Mr. N. Treacy

Always.

Mr. Cowen

They were right to get rid of Deputy Dukes.

A Deputy

You were John the Baptist for a short period.

Mr. B. Ahern

In his note the Attorney General sets out amendments he is making to the Bill on issues such as natural justice, the right to furnish statements, cross-examination, the right to give rebutting evidence, the right to address by senior counsel or solicitor and other matters he is building into the legislation. Members will see the Bill later tonight when the Government clears it. I propose that the Dáil adjourn until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 9 December.

Mr. J. Bruton

What the Tánaiste said is an accurate and fair reflection of our discussions. For over 20 years we have sought legislation to provide for privilege and compellability of witnesses. It is undoubtedly true that there are difficult constitutional and practical problems to overcome but frequently administrators use the existence of such problems as a basis for not taking decisions.

I do not doubt the sincerity of those involved in that from time to time they have attempted to solve the problem but there has not been a sustained effort to do so. It is only because of the crisis which has arisen that we are at last making a sustained effort, perhaps under pressure of time, to solve these problems. They must be solved if we are not to be in the position where, the next time we want to hold an inquiry, we must rely on a beef tribunal type model which is vastly expensive, cumbersome and inconclusive. We must fashion an instrument in the House that will work and we are making a serious effort to do so.

It is said that it is not good to make decisions under pressure of time but the reality is most people do so because the natural tendency, in all walks of life, is to postpone things until we must deal with them. Now that we must deal with the issue we will do so. I agree with the Tánaiste that it is necessary to have a time lag between Second Stage and Committee Stage. This point has been made by Oppositions of all complexions for years but it is necessary that we do so when a possible constitutional rights issue is being dealt with.

The Tánaiste is correct in saying there is general agreement that we deal with the matter on Tuesday and he gave the outline of a possible timetable. That is subject to revision. The precise times are not necessarily agreed and may not be appropriate from other points of view. Broadly speaking, we are proceeding to deal with the matter correctly. I hope the precedents we establish will be durable and useful for the broader legislation which must be introduced urgently. We cannot afford to be in the position again where the natural demand to have a matter investigated is frustrated because of a 20-year delay in dealing with the long advertised difficulty of privilege and compellability of witnesses.

An Ceann Comhairle

Since the question is that the House adjourn until 10.30 a.m. tomorrow, I would dissuade Members from attempting to debate the matter now. I respectfully submit that we await the circulation of the Bill and that the debate proper take place tomorrow morning.

Mr. Quinn

I accept that. I compliment the party leaders for the way in which they dealt with the matter. We agree to the proposal and welcome the provision of time over the weekend to enable people reflect on the contents of what will be a short Bill so as to remove any scintilla of legal doubt that might surround it. The exercise in which we will engage is a serious one and we must ensure it is done within the law and the confines of the Constitution. Natural justice must not only be seen to be done but must be fully observed by all who participate in it both inside and outside the House.

The normal arrangements for the management of business no longer apply in the House in that we do not have the traditional structure of Government with a clear majority and Opposition. Therefore, in the narrow timeframe we have set for Committee and Report Stages from noon until 7 p.m. on Tuesday, we must be self-disciplined in regard to contributions and observations, otherwise we will not meet the rigorous timetable set by the Tánaiste.

The Labour Party accept the proposed order for dealing with this business and will enter into the debate in the spirit I have outlined on the understanding that other parties do likewise.

Mr. O'Malley

The Progressive Democrats agree to what is proposed. The timetable is longer than one would wish. However, in the circumstances, there is no option but to adhere to it. Notwithstanding the fact that this Bill will take a few days to enact I hope the other and even more important work being carried on in parallel will not be delayed further and the formation of a Government is completed as quickly as possible.

Proinsias De Rossa

I agreed, in tandem with the other party leaders, that Second Stage of this Bill should be taken tomorrow and the Committee and Report Stages next Tuesday. It is important to allow that time lapse between the Second Stage and Committee Stage in order to reflect over the weekend on the implications and nuances in the Bill.

The Taoiseach

Now that the House has reached agreement on the type of Bill it wants the Government will meet after this session to progress the wishes of the House. It is our wish that the ongoing work to form a Government should proceed at an accelerated pace. I have said this on a number of occasions and I hope by the time we return from the summit in Essen Deputies will have made up their minds as to the parties which will be in Government and get on with governing the country.

The Dáil adjourned at 6.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 9 December 1994.