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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Feb 1995

Vol. 448 No. 6

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Student Maintenance Grants.

Micheál Martin

Ceist:

14 Mr. Martin asked the Minister for Education the measures, if any, she will initiate to ensure that maintenance grants are provided for approximately 17,500 post-leaving certificate students attending such courses throughout the country. [2778/95]

Brendan Smith

Ceist:

126 Mr. B. Smith asked the Minister for Education the proposals, if any, she has to provide support for students on post leaving certificate courses in view of the commitment given in the Programme of A Government of Renewal. [2917/95]

I propose to answer Questions Nos. 14 and 126 together.

Post-leaving certificate courses, which are provided in schools and colleges outside the third-level sector, have constituted one of the significant growth areas in education in recent years. I am committed to supporting the development of this sector in a number of important respects. First, I intend to establish the National Education and Training Certification Board to provide a comprehensive framework of certification for all vocational education and training programmes, including post-leaving certificate programmes. This will build on the work already under way by the National Council for Vocational Awards, which has already started to provide national certification for a range of PLC programmes. Second, I am actively considering, in the context of the proposal for the abolition of tuition fees for third-level students, the abolition of all fees for PLC courses where they exist. Third, my Department is examining the most appropriate structural arrangements to provide for the ordered and co-ordinated development of post leaving certificate courses in the future. Subject to Government approval, I will be outlining these arrangements in the forthcoming White Paper on Education.

These initiatives demonstrate my strong commitment to support the structured development of post-leaving certificate courses for the future. As these changes are progressively implemented, I will keep under continuous review the question of the provision of maintenance grants to students on these courses. However, my priority at present is to address the issues I have set out.

I take it from the Minister's reply that the Government will not provide maintenance grants for PLC students in the coming year? Given the Minister's reply it appears that following the budget it will be cheaper for some students to go to university than to attend a PLC course. An article this morning by Christina Murphy states that following the budget there will be the potential for a student in a family with an income of, say, £16,000 to qualify for a maintenance grant to go to Trinity, but a student in a family with an income of £8,000 will not get a maintenance grant to attend Ballyfermot senior college.

I have outlined my priorities in this area which I have expanded at a tremendous pace. This area has been considered as part of the second level provision and it has developed into post leaving certificate courses. There is an urgency to ensure we adopt a structured approach as to how these courses develop and their availability is a matter of great concern to me. It is important that students attend post-leaving certificate courses which have a proper certification framework. I am pleased that I will be bringing forward legislation on the establishment of the National Education and Training Certification Board. In order to move forward to deal with the priorities. I must order and co-ordinate this rapidly growing sector in which there are 17,500 students and ensure that what we put in place in the post-leaving certificate area is structured. I cannot make presumptions on what announcements will be made by the Minister for Finance in the budget tomorrow, but there is a commitment in A Government of Renewal to restructure the students' support framework which includes the abolition of fees for post-leaving certificate courses. That was the subject of a debate last week.

Will the Minister give a simple one line answer to my question? Can she confirm that the Government will not be providing maintenance grants for PLC students this year?

I cannot. I am not making any presumptions, but I spelt out my priorities in this area for this year. I will not make presumptions about what the Minister for Finance will say to me tomorrow, but I spelt out my priorities for the development of PLC programmes in my reply.

I am exasperated about this. The Dáil is due a straight answer to a simple question——

That would be something new.

——on whether PLC students will be entitled to a maintenance grant. We and the 17,500 PLC students are entitled to a straight answer to that question. Despite the Minister's protestations that she does not wish to make presumptions about tomorrow's budget we all know what will happen or have a fair idea about what will be announced by the Minister tomorrow because it has been telegraphed. The Minister should be straight and let us know whether PLC students will receive maintenance grants. She should stop the con job and insulting PLC students by talking about abolishing fees. Maintenance, not fees is an issue with PLC students. Many PLC students are not charged fees——

The Deputy has made his point.

——and the Minister will jeoparadise the provision of PLC courses by many institutions which depend on administration charges to maintain the operation of badly needed equipment.

There is a commitment in A Government of Renewal to restructure third level student support schemes. I made the point in my reply that post-leaving certificate course students are still considered as part of the second level provision. The Deputy is anticipating a debate that has not taken place. I spelt out my priorities in the area and I cannot anticipate what the Minister for Finance may say regarding this. I outlined my priorities and there is a specific commitment in the Government programme to restructure third level education and the development and availability of post-leaving certificate courses. While the abolition of fees may not be an issue in the Cork area represented by the Deputy, from the available figures, it appears to be a bigger issue than the Deputy believes it to be.

The Minister should not underestimate Cork.

Given that the policy enunciated by the Minister could create an injustice and a major inequity for PLC students and colleges, does she consider that as many of the students attending PLC courses come from the lower socio-economic group that it should be a priority concern? As a Labour Minister in Government, does the Minister not consider that priority should be given to providing assistance for such students by way of maintenance grants? Deputy Martin has said that many schools providing those courses do not charge fees. Given the social inequity that will arise following the adoption of the Minister's policy, in the interests of those students will she consider redirecting resources towards alleviating the major hardship experienced by many of the families of PLC students?

Up to September 1988 when a member of the Opposition was Minister for Education, an ESF funded maintenance allowance was in place. At that time a decision was taken to encourage students to attend post-leaving certificate courses locally. Despite the fact that the maintenance allowance was withdrawn by one of my predecessors, the number participating in the PLC courses was not affected. In my reply I referred to the framework from which PLC courses would be developed. I find it amazing that students travel from one county to another to take up a place on a PLC course when such a course is available locally.

Students would attend the local course.

I am aware that students, instead of walking in the Dún Laoghaire direction where such a course is available take a bus in the opposite direction.

That happens at university level.

It happens at regional technical college level.

Regarding university level, the Higher Education Authority has a remit to plan and point out the need for places, where courses are available and the number of places required. At present the PLC market——

The market determines the PLC courses.

As Minister my commitment is to spell out the framework I will put in place for the development of PLC courses. That will be included in the White Paper because as this is a new and rapidly developing area it must be developed in a coherent manner that responds to students' needs. It is a fairly new departure and one which would benefit from having a framework in place similar to that from which we decide the number of places and needs of third level students.

I am now moving to deal with other questions.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle you did not allow me to ask a supplementary question.

I will take a final question from Deputy Keogh, but we must move on as I want to facilitate as many Deputies as possible.

I have a simple question for the Minister. Many PLC courses are already certified, will the Minister agree that students attending such courses should be considered for maintenance grants and that we do not need to have further discussion in that regard?

In the White Paper I intend to spell out the framework in regard to PLC courses and respond to students' needs. The future of the PLC courses as a stage in education would be better served if it developed from a stated framework.

I am moving on to Question No. 15.

May I put a brief question?

I advocate brevity when putting questions because I want to facilitate as many Deputies as possible. I now call on the Minister to deal with Question No. 15.

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