Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 May 1995

Vol. 452 No. 3

Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill, 1995: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The object of this Bill is to enable Ireland to ratify the Council of Europe Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons. It will also enable us to ratify an EU agreement on how the convention will be operated among member states.

Both before and since becoming Minister for Justice I have attached considerable importance to Ireland's ratification of the convention. I am pleased that the priority which I gave to the drafting of this legislation has come to fruition in the Bill. In saying that I recognise that for some considerable time there has been widespread desire on all sides of the House that Ireland should be in a position to proceed to ratify the convention.

The Bill has been warmly welcomed outside and in the House and it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge my appreciation of the work of the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas which has played a vital role in this area over the years. I met representatives of the commission early in my term of office to receive a draft Bill designed to enable Ireland to ratify the convention, but apart from the work it has carried out on the Bill it has consistently highlighted in recent years the humanitarian considerations which arise when prisoners have to serve their sentences in another jurisdiction.

The thinking behind the convention — and of the Bill — is that persons serving sentences in other countries may have to endure added suffering beyond that normally involved in the deprivation of liberty. Obvious additional difficulties can arise because of language barriers and cultural differences, but in the vast majority of cases the greatest additional penalty is the absence of contact by the prisoner with family and friends. A major practical concern of the convention is not just to ameliorate the conditions for prisoners, but to alleviate the plight of their relatives and to make visiting easier.

Much of the attention given to this measure since its publication has arisen in the context of the role it will play as part of the consolidation of the peace process. It has that positive and worthwhile role and that will be welcomed by the House, but I believe Members will equally welcome the fact that the convention makes no distinctions based on categories of prisoners. In other words, applications can be made under the convention irrespective of whether there is a paramilitary background to the offences for which people are serving sentences.

The basic aim of the convention is to provide for a simple and expeditious procedure under which persons sentenced in a foreign country can serve their sentence or balance of their sentence in their country of origin if that is their preference.

Before going into some of the background to the convention, and the detail of the individual sections, it might be helpful to make three key points. First, the transfer prodecure is voluntary. The sentenced person, the state to which he or she is seeking a transfer and the state where he or she is serving a sentence all must consent to the transfer. Second, although it is a Council of Europe convention it is not confined to Council of Europe countries. Accession by non-member states is possible and so, for example, the convention applies to the US and Canada. Third, the approach which the convention takes is to set out administrative procedures. The Bill is an enabling one: it is not necessary to include in it matters contained in the convention which can be simply implemented on an administrative basis, but what the Bill contains are the legislative measures which are necessary to enable Ireland to give effect to the convention. On this point I do not believe that there will be any difference of principle between the various sides of the House about the substance of the Bill, but if Members have views about what I might call the technicalities involved I will approach these with an open mind during the various Stages of the Bill.

For a fuller appreciation of some of the issues involved it may be helpful if I set out some of the background to the convention. The initiative for the convention came as far back as 1978 when, at a Council of Europe Conference, Ministers for Justice discussed the problems posed by prisoners of foreign nationality, including the question of providing procedures for their transfer so that they might serve their sentence in their home country. Those discussions led to the setting up in 1979 of a Select Committee on Foreign Nationals in Prison whose tasks included the preparation of a multilateral convention providing for a simple procedure for the transfer of foreign prisoners. The text of the convention took a number of years to prepare and was eventually approved by the Council of Ministers in 1982 and opened for signature in March 1983.

The operative date for the convention, the date it came into force, is 1 July 1985. Ireland signed the convention a year later on 20 August 1986.

Meanwhile, the desirability of facilitating transfers of sentenced persons between member states of the EU was being increasingly appreciated and this culminated in a 1987 EU Agreement which supplemented the convention from the point of view of its application among member states. So far four EU member states have given effect to the EU Agreement, and 27 of the 33 Council of Europe member states — as well as some non-member states — have ratified the convention.

I do not think that any of us would make any bones about the fact that Ireland's performance in terms of pressing ahead with the ratification of this particular convention has been slow. We are now the only remaining EU member state that has yet to ratify. While obviously I can only account to the House for what has happened since I became Minister for Justice, as I understand it some of the delay related to certain concerns expressed about the repercussions the convention might have on an already crowded prison system. While these concerns are not unfounded, they are not insurmountable problems either. In any event I believe there was a growing acceptance on all sides of the House — not least in the context of the peace process — that ratification should not be further delayed. That is why I made it my business on coming into office to give priority to the necessary enabling legislation and thereby fulfil a commitment in the Government programme, A Government of Renewal. As I already indicated, I am very pleased to see it published so soon and debated here today.

The convention does not place an obligation on any contracting party to effect a transfer. Instead, emphasis is placed on the three way consent I have already referred to. Special emphasis is placed on the consent of the sentenced person. Nothing would be gained by transferring someone against his or her will and without the person appreciating fully the legal consequences of such a transfer. Accordingly, consent of the sentenced person must be a voluntary and informed consent.

In addition to that three way consent, the convention lays down four other criteria which must be satisfied before a transfer can take place. The first is that the sentenced person is a national of the receiving state. A contracting party has the option of defining the term "national" by way of declaration to be made when depositing the instruments of ratification to the convention. This possibility is intended to enable contracting states to define "national" in as wide a sense as possible, and so broaden the application of the convention to cover, say, persons who, though not strictly speaking nationals, may have close ties with the receiving state. A similar approach arises under the EU Agreement, which supplemented the convention, to the extent that between EU member states, a national of one member state is regarded as a national of another where a transfer is considered appropriate and taking into account the person's habitual residence.

The other three prerequisites for a transfer are: that the sentence imposed on the person is final, that the sentenced person has normally at least six months of the sentence left to serve and that the offence for which the sentenced person is imprisoned would constitute a criminal offence if committed in the receiving state.

Under the convention the receiving or administering State is given a choice between two ways of enforcing the sentence imposed by the sentencing state. It may continue to enforce the sentence, in which case it is bound, subject to any necessary technical modifications, by the nature and duration of the sentence as determined in the original sentencing state: or, alternatively, it may convert the sentence into a decision which substitutes a sanction prescribed by its own law for the sanction imposed in the sentencing state.

As regards transfers of prisoners into this country, the Bill proposes to use the procedure of continued enforcement which is considered the more straightforward of the two procedures provided for in the convention which should operate with greater certainty and thus generally in the best interests of the sentenced person. Legal authority for the continued enforcement in the State of a sentence imposed by a foreign state will be provided by way of warrant issued by the High Court. The warrant will issue on foot of an application to that court by me, as Minister, I have consented to the transfer. The involvement of the High Court was considered the safest legal approach from a constitutional law point of view. When the High Court warrant has issued and the sentenced person is transferred into the State the person will be subject to the same rules governing administration of sentence as any other person sentenced in the State, for example, with regard to remission etc.

As regards transfers out of the State, obviously we have no extra-territorial jurisdiction and therefore are unable, to legislate for the nuts and bolts of how a sentence will be enforced in another jurisdiction but, of course, parties to the convention will enforce the sentence in line with the terms of the convention. The facilitation of transfers abroad is treated under the Bill as an entirely administrative function as distinct from involving a judicial process. The Bill provides a legislative basis for the exercise of that administrative function. In keeping with the aim of the convention to provide a speedy and simple mechanism for transfers, the Bill provides that the legal authority for transfers out will be simply by way of warrant issued by me as Minister and there is no need for application to court.

I mentioned earlier that concerns had been expressed about the impact the convention might have on prison population numbers here. It is fair to say that the convention could impact on this country more than on others because, on the one hand, we have a relatively small population of foreigners — about 180 —in our prisons today while on the other, we know that the number of Irish nationals serving sentences abroad at any given time far exceeds that number. The latest available figures indicate that there are at least some 600 Irish nationals imprisoned throughout the world who would be eligible to have their case considered.

Clearly not all those persons will be interested in a transfer. Nonetheless, there is a potential problem because the number of potential transfers into the State is far far higher than the number of potential transfers out. While I certainly do not wish to have to stand in the way of transfers and am keen to facilitate people where at all possible, the reality is that I have a duty to guard against placing an intolerable burden on our prison system. The best approach to this would be to draw attention to the problem when ratifying the convention and to enter an appropriate reservation at that time.

This would allow the necessary flexibility between playing our full part in implementing the convention and avoiding unsustainable pressure on prison accommodation. I acknowledge freely that, in the absence of the convention being in force, it is difficult to ascertain precisely the likely level of interest there will be in applications under it. Certainly it should be borne in mind that very many Irish nationals serving sentences abroad — particularly in the United Kingdom — have long-established roots ther and would have no interest in returning here. It is worth nothing that at one stage the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas estimated that the number of prisoners seeking a transfer to here would be about 40 and would level off at fewer than ten annually subsequently. It has to be borne in mind too that, if needs be, applications into the country could be dealt with on a phased basis. If an inordinate number of applications were to be received it will always be the case that the Minister for Justice can withhold consent to transfers.

Before I outline the main provisions of the Bill itself, I reiterate that the Bill does not actually implement the convention. Rather it is an enabling Bill, a means to an end, a necessary prerequisite to ratification of the convention. The convention itself is really only enabling as well, in the sense that it confines itself to providing the procedural framework for repatriation of sentenced persons. It places no obligation on contracting parties to agree to a transfer. It follows that many of the convention's provisions need not be laid down in statutory form and can be dealt with more speedily in an administrative way. Accordingly, the Bill is relatively short and succinct and does not elaborate beyond what is necessary to comply with our eventual obligations under the convention.

Section 1 deals with interpretation and follows closely the definitions in the convention. By subsection (2) the possibility for transfer into the State relates not just to persons detained in foreign prisons, but also to persons of any age who, by reason of incapacity or young age, are detained in places other than prisons, such as hospitals. Sections 2 and 3 deal with applications and legal authority for transfers of persons outside the State, that is, the outward traffic. Under section 2 applications for transfer must be made in writing to me, as Minister, by the sentenced person concerned. However, if the person is unable to apply him or herself, by reason of their young age or physical or mental condition, application may be made on their behalf by an appropriate person, such as a parent or a doctor.

Before an application can be granted the conditions for transfer, as laid down by the convention, must be met. The first condition is that the applicant is a national of the receiving or administering state. However, where the person is a national of another EU member state which has ratified the 1987 Agreement that person may be deemed to fulfil this condition.

The second condition is that the sentence must be final and enforceable. In other words, all available remedies must be exhausted, or the time limit for lodging an appeal against sentence and/or conviction has expired. However, this does not preclude the possibility of a later judicial review of the sentence or a petition for pardon in light of fresh evidence under the Criminal Procedure Act, 1993.

The third condition concerns the length of sentence still to be served. Normally this must be of at least six months' duration or be indeterminate. However, in exceptional cases, this requirement need not be rigidly complied with and, provided the receiving or administering state agrees, a transfer can be effected where there is less than six months left to serve.

The fourth condition is that the transfer must be voluntary — the sentenced person must consent freely and with full knowledge of what the legal effect of his/her transfer will be from the point of view of both jurisdictions. Consequently, the convention and the Bill, in section 2, subsection (5), lay particular emphasis on the necessity for full and informed consent, since quite clearly transferring someone without such consent, would lack fairness and be ultimately counterproductive. There may be times though when someone is just not in a position to give consent, for example, when a person is too young or suffering from mental disability. In those circumstances, it is proposed that consent be given by an appropriate person on their behalf. Again, such an appropriate person might be a parent or a medical person.

The fifth condition is that the offence concerned would constitute a criminal offence if committed in the administering state. This is intended to ensure compliance with the principle of dual criminal liability. It is not necessary that the criminal offence be precisely the same in all respects under both the law of this jurisdiction and that of the sentencing state, but some element of comparability is necessary.

The sixth and final condition is that the administering state must also agree to the transfer. Therefore, this condition confirms the convention's basic principle that a transfer requires the agreement of the two states concerned.

Section 3 of the Bill provides that the legal authority for the transfer of a person out of the state will be by way of warrant issued by the Minister for Justice. The warrant provides authority for the taking of the sentenced person to the point of departure from the state — which will normally be an airport — and for handing him or her over to the escorting officer authorised by the administering state. While the delivery and removal of the sentenced person is being effected, he or she will be deemed to be in legal custody.

After a person has been transferred, the sentence imposed by this jurisdiction will continue to be enforceable so that if, for instance, the person should escape from lawful custody he or she would be liable to be taken into custody on foot of the original court order made.

The sentence will cease to be enforceable, however, when the receiving or administering state considers enforcement to have been completed. Clearly we do not want to have a situation where a person who is granted the equivalent of full temporary release in a foreign state would be liable to arrest and imprisonment should the person return here. Accordingly section 3 (7) provides that the Minister may direct that the sentence be varied or cease altogether to give effect to the convention.

The procedure for transfers into the state, that is, inward traffic, is set out in sections 4 and 5. The grounds for a transfer to all intents and purposes are the same as those for outgoing transfers just outlined. The one significant difference is the role the High Court has to play in providing the legal authority for the transfer when it has been consented to. I will return to that in a moment.

Applications for inward transfer must be made in writing, this time by the sentencing state. Again, the necessary conditions for transfer must be met and there must be no doubts as to the sentenced person's full and informed consent. When I, as Minister, have satisfied myself that those requirements have been met and I agree to the transfer, it would be a matter for me to apply to the High Court for the issue of a warrant providing legal authority for bringing the person into the State and the continued enforcement of the sentence here.

The role of the High Court is set out in section 5. In sum, the court must issue a warrant if satisfied that the necessary conditions for transfer have been fulfilled. In issuing a warrant for continued enforcement, the court will be bound by the type of penalty and duration of sentence as determined by the sentencing state. There may be cases, however, where the legal nature or duration of the sentence imposed in the foreign jurisdiction will be incompatible with the law of this State. This could arise by reason of different penal systems with regard to the division of penalties, or the minimum or maximum length of sentences prescribed. In such cases the High Court may, under section 5 (5), adapt the sentence to one prescribed by the law of this state for a similar offence. The adaptation procedure must take place within the limited boundaries specified in subsection (6): the adapted sentence must, as far as practicable, correspond with that imposed by the sentencing state. It must not aggravate the sentence imposed in the sentencing state and must not exceed the maximum sentence prescribed by the law of this state for a similar offence. In other words, the High Court may adapt the sentence to the nearest equivalent available provided this does not result in a longer sentence so that the sentenced person is no less well off from the point of view of length of time still to be served.

The issue of the warrant will mean in practice that the balance of the sentence to be served will have the same effect as if it were a sentence imposed here. It will not be subject to appeal since that remains the prerogative of the sentencing state but, in all other respects, it will be served in precisely the same way as a sentence imposed here, and so be subject to all the normal rules governing administration of sentence generally, remission and temporary release.

Enforcement will cease sooner than it would do in the normal course where notification is received from the sentencing state of any decision taken there other than one concerning remission which would mean in effect that the sentence would no longer be enforceable in that state. This could happen where there has been a quashing of the conviction by the sentencing state.

Section 6 provides for the legal custody of the person being transferred into the State in accordance with a High Court warrant and the designation and powers of persons authorised to take the person to and from any place under the warrant. Under the convention the sentencing state alone has the right to take decisions on applications for review of conviction. The exclusive competence of the sentencing state in this regard is justified by the fact that review of sentence is not part of enforcement per se and, in any event, the sentencing state is for obvious reasons better placed to re-examine the material evidence. That said, the receiving or administering state must not stand in the way of enabling a person who has been transferred to seek review of a sentence. If the outcome of such a review is that the sentence be quashed, the administering state must reciprocate and terminate enforcement as soon as it is notified of any such decision or measure.

Section 7 contains a general power for the Minister or the High Court, as the case may be, to revoke or vary the warrant under which the person has been transferred either out of or into the State, where necessary in order to give effect to the convention. Section 8 proposed the standard from of expenses provision and section 9 is the short title. Those are the Bill's main provisions.

I said at the out set that I have given priority to this Bill. It will have very positive benefits for Irish nationals who are serving sentences abroad in foreign prisons and particularly for their families. Equally, it will also provide an avenue of hope for those non-nationals who happen to have been sentenced in this jurisdiction but who would prefer to be in their home country.

I will, of course, consider with an open mind any points of detail raised by Deputies. Given that this Bill is fulfilling our responsibilities as a member of the Council of Europe, the humanitarian nature of what is being proposed and the part this measure will play in the consolidation of the peace process, I am confident it will be welcomed by all sides of the House.

This Bill will allow the transfer of prisoners, including those convicted of Republican paramilitary offences, from Britain to prisons in this State. Clearly the Bill is not just a humane and social prerequisite; it is also an important component of the peace process on this island. The eventual publication of this Bill will give teeth to the 1983 Council of Europe Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Prisoners. Ireland had previously signed the convention but it is only now that the necessary legislation to enact its provisions has been published. The delay was mainly due to the situation which prevailed in Northern Ireland and the inertia of the Government.

The Deputy's party was in Government for seven years but did not introduce the Bill. The Deputy should not be ungracious.

While I and my colleagues in Fianna Fáil warmly welcome the Bill which allows for the transfer of sentenced prisoners outside the State to prisons within the State, we want to register our deep regret that it has taken so long for this important legislation to see the light of day because of the lamentable obduracy of the rainbow coalition Government.

I cannot believe what the Deputy is saying.

My information is that this important legislation was ready to be published when the previous Fianna Fáil-led administration left office.

Why did it not publish the Bill?

This vital legislation could and should have been enacted prior to Christmas 1994. I reiterate that progress has been slow and the delays totally unacceptable.

In December 1994 the rainbow coalition Government in its Programme for A Government of Renewal stated: “Legislation on the Convention on the Transfer of Prisoners will be expedited immediately following the formation of the Government”. It said “immediately” but it is now May 1995. Fianna Fáil had given a commitment to Sinn Féin that the legislation would be enacted prior to Christmas 1994. As on so many other fronts — it gives me no great pleasure to say this — foot dragging by the Minister has hindered and hampered vitally important legislation. The Government must realise that it cannot kick to touch for ever.

This legislation has been in the course of preparation for many years.

Thank you.

This enabling Bill will empower the State to ratify the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Prisoners. I very much welcome the eventual publication of the Bill but I must register my disappointment at the paucity of information in it. It has taken 12 years to ratify the convention and I get the impression that insufficient consideration has been given to the practicalities of operating it. I am extremely pleased that at long last Irish people in prisons in the United Kingdom and elsewhere will have an opportunity to serve their sentences in Ireland. Fianna Fáil echoes the sentiments of the Committee on the Administration of Justice, the Irish Commissioner for Prisoners Overseas, the National Association of Probation Officers and the Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders in welcoming the eventual publication of the Bill. We all understand why prisoners would like to have their families as close as possible to them — there is no need to go into this point in detail. The purpose of the convention and this enabling Bill is humanitarian: they will enable prisoners to serve their sentences close to their families and friends in the country of their birth, thus avoiding the hardship experienced by them as a result of differences in language, culture and religion.

On the question of the desire to repatriate prisoners, I wish to refer to a recent visit by my colleague, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, to Belmarsh Prison in South London and Fullsutton Prison in York. In his report Deputy Ó Cuív highlighted the startling costs of visiting prisoners in Britain. He estimated that the minimum cost, including accommodation, of visiting a prisoner in Belmarsh or Fullsutton is in excess of £300. He said that this was the cost for one adult travelling alone and he shuddered to think of the cost of travelling with children to these institutions. Bearing in mind the huge time, monetary and emotional costs involved in visiting prisoners overseas, we all welcome the Bill before us today.

In his report, Deputy Ó Cuív also stated that the prisoners he had visited were pleased to hear that the Irish Government proposed to ratify the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons. All Fianna Fáil Deputies echo the sentiments that the present regime is as much a sentence on the families as it is on the prisoners involved.

Referring to the political position here, Deputy Ó Cuív stated that the prisoners he had visited had experienced little or no peace dividend since the ceasefire. They claimed access to their families was more restricted than ever and felt that, as a first step in the peace process, their conditions should be improved and, as far as their families are concerned, there should be a peace dividend. Obviously, the prisoners are anxious to transfer to Ireland. I pay tribute to Deputy Ó Cuív for his initiative and to his constituency colleague, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, for the great work she did in this area while serving as an outstanding Minister for Justice.

With the aforementioned factors in mind, with the peace process again gaining momentum and talks scheduled for next week, it is not before time that we are today debating the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill. There was scarcely a day in the recent past when the Fianna Fáil Leader, Deputy Ahern, did not ask the Taoiseach on the Order of Business when this legislation would be brought forward.

The Bill concentrates almost exclusively on the technical aspects of prisoner transfers, such as the issuing and revocation of warrants in respect of the free transfer of prisoners. While I understand that, for legislative reasons, extremely important and pressing issues have not been included in the Bill, nonetheless extremely important questions must be answered as a corollary to it. I would have expected the Minister to inform the House, first, of the number of Irish citizens currently held in United Kingdom prisons, second, the proportion of those that can be expected to seek transfers to Ireland and, third, the number of United Kingdom prisoners currently held in Irish prisons who are likely to seek transfers to the United Kingdom.

It is well known that our prisons are filled to capacity. I understand our prisons currently hold approximately 2,350 offenders. Can the Minister assure us that urgently needed additional prisoner places will be provided? It would be undesirable if prisoners sentenced by Irish courts receive premature parole and extra early release dates merely to fulfil a quota that the Minister's advisers believe is justified if the legislation is to be honoured. This is particularly important when one considers that of the approximately 2,350 persons currently incarcerated in Irish prisons a little more than 10 per cent are sexual offenders.

I am sure it is generally accepted that prisoners should not be released unless prison officials are satisfied that early release has been earned during service of the sentence and, at the same time, the Minister must accept, no matter how late in the day, the immortal words of Robert Service that "a promise made is a debt unpaid".

I am sure we all sympathise with the plight of some of our emigrants who fail to adjust to the demands of living outside of Ireland. Many are vulnerable or incapacitated to such an extent that they serve regular terms of imprisonment, usually for relatively minor offences. Some of the transferees to our prisons may wish to resettle here. I suspect that a portion of them will experience further problems in attempting to reintegrate into a different society from that of the United Kingdom and elsewhere. I hope the Minister plans to provide special probation officers and social workers to assist with the attempts of such transferees to come to terms with life in their own country again. Ex-prisoners from the United Kingdom and elsewhere deserve an opportunity to reform and the State has a duty to assist them.

The Minister for Justice has promised a referendum to tighten our bail laws. However, due to ministerial inaction on this urgent issue, we in Fianna Fáil have published a Bill dealing with bail, which will be debated tonight. It cannot be disputed that the incidence of crime committed by people on bail has increased sharply in recent years and, consequently, it is abundantly clear that our bail laws need to be tightened. We must bear in mind that a balance must be struck between the rights of a person to personal civil liberty and the necessity to protect society from hardened criminals. In publishing a Bill, we must recognise that the consequential increase in the number of remand prisoners, through the curtailment of the opportunities for bail, will place a greater demand on the prison service. Because of the necessity to tighten our bail laws and the number of prisoners returning from the United Kingdom and elsewhere, there will be an obvious need for additional prison places.

Will the Minister say, in terms of resources, what exactly the peace process means to her Department and whether such resources could be deployed to expand the prison service? I have been endeavouring to get that information for some time, but have failed. Who has the figures? When will we get transparency on this issue? I again call for an urgent examination and response from the Minister on the issue of resources, particularly in the light of freeing up Garda resources along the Border. Surely at least some Border resources could be diverted immediately to ensure that we have a prison service that will not fall on its face as soon as the prisoner transfer policy begins and our bail laws are tightened. Many questions are in need of urgent replies. Tardy and obtuse diplomacy are not a substitute for direct and honest endeavour.

The drafting of the Bill is somewhat ambiguous. The definition section fails to define the meaning of the word "Court". There are references to the "High Court" and to "the courts". Am I to understand that only the High Court will be given jurisdiction to deal with such matters as the issuing of warrants and the adaptation of sentences as provided for in section 5? I am also aware that the remission of sentences may differ in each member state. In this country there is a standard remission of one-quarter of a sentence where the prisoner has been of good behaviour. In Britain the remission is one-third. Is the Minister saying that the remission in the case of a prisoner transferred here will be one-quarter?

As is the case here.

Will the Minister cover the costs of the transfer of prisoners? I would expect the receiving State to pay the costs of incarceration.

In regard to the provisions of the Bill, it must be noted that the convention does not give sentenced persons a right to transfer to their countries of origin. It merely facilitates their transfer if they request it and both States agree to it. This does not prevent a State which ratifies the convention from providing, through legislation, that prisoners who satisfy the relevant criteria, shall have a right to transfer out of that State if the State to which they wish to be transferred agrees. Nor does it prevent such a State providing that prisoners who wish to be transferred to that State shall have a right to be accepted by that State, if the State in which they are currently imprisoned agrees to their transfer. In other words, Ireland can legislate to give a right to a foreign national imprisoned here to transfer to his or her home country if that State agrees to accept him or her. Ireland can also legislate to give a right to Irish nationals or persons who are to be regarded as such to be accepted here if the state in which they are currently held agrees to transfer them. However, Ireland cannot legislate to give Irish nationals imprisoned in, for example, the United Kingdom a right to transfer out of the United Kingdom. It can only guarantee that if the United Kingdon agrees to transfer these nationals, they will automatically be entitled to acceptance here. Similarly, Ireland cannot legislate to compel another state to accept the transfer of that state's nationals; Ireland can only guarantee that it will transfer them if their home state agrees to take them. That said, however, it would seem much more preferable that Ireland should establish transfer as a right when certain criteria are fulfilled rather than as a matter of discretion for the Minister concerned. If Ireland adopts the attitude of making transfer a right, subject to agreement by the other State, that might also exercise a certain moral authority or pressure on other convention states to adopt the same attitude in relation to Irish nationals held in their territory.

This Bill makes decision on transfer into or out of the State a matter of descretion for the Minister. The amendment which I intend to move on Committee Stage would make it mandatory for the Minister to agree to transfer provided that the criteria currently set out in the Bill, which are essentially those set out in the convention, are satisfied.

In regard to transfer out of the State the amendments would, however, preserve a discretion to refuse transfer if there was a danger of the prisoner being subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or if other charges were pending here against the prisoner. The amendments would also provide that there cannot be any unwarranted discrimination against persons on account of their race, colour, gender, views, etc. and require that in the event of a refusal by the Minister, the reasons for that refusal should be set out in writing and furnished to the prisoner within a reasonable; period of time. This would clearly facilitate an appeal against such a refusal. The amendments would also provide for an appeal to the High Court against the refusal of a transfer request in either direction. The lack of provision for such appeals is a serious flaw in the Bill.

Will the Minister accept that the cost of human life cannot be measured and the very least the Irish people can now expect is that the money saved in the Department of Justice as a direct result of the peace process should be spent on ensuring an enduring, lasting and just peaceful settlement on this island? Peace with justice is within our reach and I ask the Minister to further reach out to it now.

I should have asked at the outset if I could share my time with Deputy Ned O'Keeffe.

Is that agreed? Agreed. There are some ten minutes available to Deputy O'Keeffe.

I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for sharing his time with me, thereby allowing me to contribute to the debate on this important Bill.

The Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons was completed at Strasbourg on 21 March 1983. Countries such as the United States, the United Kingdom, Cyprus and the Turkish Republic were signatories to the convention. Turkey does not have a very good record on human rights but it was prepared to sign the convention. It has taken this country over 12 years to adopt the convention and my party supports this Bill which ratifies it.

My information indicates that approximately 40 persons of Irish nationality who are at present serving prison sentences in Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom, the United States and elsewhere would be available for immediate transfer. As we in Fianna Fáil are originators of the peace process we call on the Government to facilitate the return to Ireland of those prisoners who wish to do so. Article 2 of the convention states:

1. The Parties undertake to afford each other the widest measure of cooperation in respect of the transfer of sentenced persons in accordance with the provisions of this Convention.

2. A person sentenced in the territory of a Party may be transferred to the territory of another Party, in accordance with the provisions of this Convention, in order to serve the sentence imposed on him. To that end, he may express his interest to the sentencing State or to the administering State in being transferred under this Convention.

3. Transfer may be requested by either the sentencing State or the administering State.

Article 3 of the convention states:

1. A sentenced person may be transferred under this Convention only on the following conditions:

(a) if that person is a national of the administering State;

(b) if the judgment is final;

(c) if, at the time of receipt of the request for transfer, the sentenced person still has at least six months of the sentence to serve or if the sentence is indeterminate;

(d) If the transfer is consented to by the sentenced person or, where in view of his age or his physical or mental condition [I understand many of our prisoners suffer physical or mental conditions] one of the two States considers it necessary, by the sentenced person's legal representative;

(e) if the acts or omissions on account of which the sentence has been imposed constitute a criminal offence according to the law of the administering State or would constitute a criminal offence if committed on its territory; and

(f) if the sentencing and administering State agreed to the transfer.

2. In exceptional cases, Parties may agree to a transfer even if the time to be served by the sentenced person is less than that specified in paragraph 1.c.

3. Any State may, at the time of signature or when depositing its instrument or ratification, acceptance, approval or accession, by a declaration addressed to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, indicate that it intends to exclude the application of one of the procedures provided in Article 9.1.a and b in its relations with other Parties.

4. Any State may, at any time, by a declaration addressed to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, define, as far as it is concerned, the term "national" for the purposes of this Convention.

That is quite clear and specific.

A vital condition is the agreement of the sentencing state and the administering state — in this context, Ireland. Will the Minister confirm that she will support the convention in practice by (1) making representations to the sentencing states, in particular Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is part of our own State, in addition to the United States and (2) making available accommodation for their returning prisoners but not to our overcrowded prisons where some of the conditions are appalling? I am sure the Minister is aware that the expense involved in visiting prisoners abroad can be as much as £500 for one person depending on where the prison is located in the UK. I am using the UK as an example but I am not aware what the cost would be in regard to Cyprus or the United States.

Many of these prisoners' families come from humble backgrounds and they have great difficulty in coming up with the necessary moneys to travel abroad to visit their relatives. I am aware that during their entire prison sentence some prisoners will never be visited by all the members of their family. I ask the Minister to ratify the convention on compassionate grounds.

If the peace process is to be successful — and I hope there is the same generosity on the Government side of the House as there is on this side — we must be more sympathetic to the plight of these prisoners. I ask the Minister to clarify points that have been raised on this side of the House because the peace process is vital for the economic wellbeing of the island. The guns have been off the streets for some time due to the efforts of people on this side of the House going back as far as 1982, when Mr. Haughey was Taoiseach. I appeal to the Minister to do everything possible to assist in this area.

The introduction of this legislation which facilitates our ratifying the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons is driven primarily by the peace process. There is no doubt about that and the Minister should say so. It is not driven by a wish to honour international obligations on human rights as it has taken us 12 years to ratify this convention. There is no doubt that commitments were made to Sinn Féin and we should know what we are taking about when discussing this Bill.

This Bill facilitates the transfer of sentenced prisoners from foreign states to Ireland and vice versa to serve the balance of their sentence in their home country. This is welcome on humanitarian grounds and as an essential part of the peace process. Although we are not allowed to set out a hierarchy of the elements of the peace process, it would be disingenuous to ignore its potential implications for the Exchequer. The Minister accepted this point in her speech and indicated that when it comes to ratification this Government may enter a reservation because it may turn out to be one way traffic given our emigration trends. Once there is a facility for the return of sentenced prisoners we may have far more prisoners being transferred to us rather than from us. The Minister stated that there were 180 foreign nationals in our prisons and 650 Irish prisoners abroad. There is a discrepancy in the figures because I have a figure of up to 1,200 prisoners of Irish nationality in prisons abroad. We have to be clear about possible implications for the Exchequer and I am glad the Minister is reserving the right of discretion. If you give absolute rights to prisoners to return home regardless of the State's capacity to accommodate them, we may see prisoners initiating proceedings in the High Court to vindicate their rights and this would cause many problems. A tripartite arrangement is very important — the receiving state must consent, the transferring state must consent and the prisoner must consent.

I am not trying to minimise the humanitarian aspect of this Bill or to deny that it is a very important part of the peace process — one which we support — but we should discuss the economic implications of it. The non-capital cost per offender is £37,000 per annum and the capital cost of providing each new place of detention is £100,000 per place. In the document The Management of Offenders — a Five Year Plan the Government costed 210 additional places at £30 million with additional operating costs of £7.8 million per annum. On the basis of those figures, if 120 Irish prisoners overseas were returned to their home country to complete their sentence, the capital cost would be £17.14 million plus an annual operating cost of £4.4 million. It would be irresponsible of us not to consider at least how we might deal with the fact that this Bill is not Exchequer neutral.

The Minister does not need me to tell her that the prison system is close to collapse in terms of space for the number of prisoners. This Bill gives us the opportunity to challenge the Minister to address major policy and structural reforms that are needed.

In the past 15 years there has been a substantial growth in the number of offenders in our prisons which rose from the daily number of 1,215 in 1980 to 2,175, an increase of 79 per cent. This is made considerably worse by the fact that due to the absolute scarcity of accommodation in our prisons we have to grant 500-600 prisoners temporary release. This aspect of prison policy has to be looked at as there is evidence that people on temporary release commit more crimes, as well as the revolving door syndrome, this is when somebody is put on remand somebody has to be released because there is no separate remand centre. Somebody awaiting trial, presumed innocent until proven guilty, is placed within the body of the existing prison population along with hardened criminals and drug addicts and a convicted prisoner is given early or temporary release.

I wonder what is the status now of The Management of Offenders — A Five Year Plan, a document published by the Department of Justice in June 1994? Is all the intellectual work which went into this report set at nought? Does the Minister have plans for additional prison places? Does the Minister have a plan to deal with heroin addicts, who make up one third of the prison population in Mountjoy Prison? The latest reports from the Visiting Committee have been damning indictments of the system. Dreadful language was used in one report to describe how Mountjoy Prison is close to collapse and it is really convincing. I am sure anyone who has visited Mountjoy Prison, as I have, will testify to the fact that the system is only accommodating the problem. There is no rehabilitation, there is no work and most of the prisoners do nothing all day except lie despondent in their cells. They are not encouraged to work as there are no facilities to do so. Drugs are widely available and they are sumps of despair. We are now considering the return of Irish people who have raped English women, have broken into houses in Britain or been involved in terrible crimes in England. I wonder if we have our priorities right in initiating such a procedure and putting it on our Statute Book when our own prison system is in a disastrous state. There is an absence of policy from top to bottom.

There is across-the-board agreement in this House that as part of the peace process we have to honour this commitment to Sinn Féin. There is no doubt that apart from so called political prisoners — terrorists — there are many ordinary criminals, as they are called, who will experience racism in jails by reason of their cultural difference and language. In some cases they may be held in appalling conditions although we cannot boast fantastic prison conditions. It may well be that some Irish prisoners imprisoned overseas may not want to go to Mountjoy. I would not blame them.

There is a number of small discrepancies between the Bill and the convention which I will address on Committee Stage. Article 4 of the convention provides that the Minister must inform all sentenced persons to whom the convention applies of the substance of the convention, in other words, of their right to apply for a transfer. However, the Bill does not place any such obligation on the Minister to inform Irish people imprisoned abroad. The Minister may say that all foreign prisoners will be informed of their entitlement to apply for a transfer as a matter of course but it is fair to say that in the past aliens detained in our jails were not afforded all their civil, human and legal rights. We cannot leave anything to chance. I am thinking of refugees who have been treated appalling in this State over the years. It would be prudent for the Minister to include in the Bill a specific legal obligation to inform prisoners who are nationals of another contracting state of their right to a transfer.

Despite my cautious welcome for the Bill it should not become law without having a good debate on what the Minister proposes to do with prisoners transferred here from abroad given the difficulties with space. The non-capital cost per year for every adult prisoner in Mountjoy is £37,000, an extraordinarily high figure. The capital cost is much higher with every extra prison space costing £110,000.

There is little or no rehabilitative programme in the prison service. The level of recidivism and the continued failure of the prison service to deal with the problem of prisoners who abuse drugs and alcohol is evidence of that. Prisons should be places of detention, discipline and detoxification where appropriate. There is need for the Minister to consider setting up a national custodial detoxification centre for prisoner addicts given that one third of the prison population in Mountjoy are heroin abusers. At least then we can go some way towards treating that class of criminal rather than accommodating sick people who get worse in jail.

The Minister should clarify the number of prisoners held abroad. I have a figure of 1,200 while the Minister referred to 650. Recent figures in a newspaper report indicated that there are 650 Irish prisoners in Britain alone. We need to know what we are doing in terms of numbers and the cost to the Exchequer. The Minister said she draws no distinction between terrorists and ordinary criminals.

Neither does the convention.

We are talking about the peace process and the commitments given to Sinn Féin in that context.

It covers everyone. Do not make the mistake of thinking it covers one class.

I know it covers everyone but it is a masterpiece of distraction for the Minister to try to convince us that she is interested in the humanitarian rights of all prisoners overseas.

I resent the imputation that I do not have a humane aspect——

I do not mind; I agree it has to be done. We must all swallow our skins and say we must do this. This is about commitments given to Sinn Féin.

The Deputy kept demanding the Bill. She should make up her mind on what she wants.

I have not demanded the return of terrorists from abroad.

The Deputy asked about the Bill every morning.

Deputy O'Donoghue asked about it. I was interested to see how much vigour the new Government would put into this convention taking the peace process into account.

The Deputy is not really in favour of it.

Let us hear the Deputy in possession without interruption.

Regarding the enforcement of sentences handed down by a British court, for example a 20 year sentence for a terrorist, if the person is willing to come home and the receiving state — us — is willing to accept him and the sending state — Britain — is willing to send him, is the Minister saying that her executive power to remit the sentence in terms of the release of political prisoners will apply to such lengthy sentences? That is an important political point since only recently Irish people were sentenced to long terms of imprisonment for carrying out terrible atrocities in British cities. Is that part of the deal? We will not hear about that; it is hidden between the lines.

What is noticeable about the Bill is the lack of any understanding of or sympathy for the victims. We talk about the consent of the sending state, the receiving state and the offender but there is not a word about notifying victims or their families. It is part of the continuing failure of the Minister for Justice and the Taoiseach to recognise, even in a small way, the equal rights of the victims of crime. This is a theme I have visited frequently on the Taoiseach. The Minister is sympathetic towards a charter on victims' rights and has given a commitment to honour it. The Bill does not give a whit of recognition or understanding to the victims in Britain who have buried their dead as a result of terrorist acts.

It may be seen as politically incorrect in the context of the peace process to talk about such matters but there has been an unhelpful suspension of our critical faculties so terrified are we that we might upset Gerry Adams. This is not to the good and has disimproved the level of debate about the rights of relatives and victims and decency and fairness in the context of the peace process. I am glad the Bill gives me an opportunity to say that.

This Bill puts in place a mechanism which will enable Irish terrorists who were involved in very serious acts of terrorism in Britain to be brought back here and in due course released because the Government says so. That is the big political issue which is hidden in the lines of this Bill. We should have a good talk about that because we in this State can be flaithiúlacht about releasing terrorist prisoners. We have not picked up babies from the rubble as have people in Britain and Northern Ireland.

I do not wish to be alarmist but if Irish prisoners held abroad were to be returned here the number involved would be phenomenal. What is the position about the extra 210 places promised in this glossy document — a five year plan for the management of offenders?

This Bill will present us with unsustainable capital costs on an annual basis.

Debate adjourned.
Barr
Roinn