Deputy Haughey is in possession and he has 20 minutes.
Private Members' Business. - Crime Prevention/Prison Accommodation: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy O'Donoghue on Tuesday, 27 June 1995:
That Dáil Éireann deplores the short-sighted decision of the Government to halt the provision of additional prison spaces at Castlerea as well as the building of a women's prison in Dublin in view of vandalism on the rampage, the spiralling escalation of serious crime, particularly in Dublin, as well as the need to relieve prison overcrowding and provide modern, humane conditions conducive to the prevention of re-offending, as called for by the Mountjoy Visiting Committee and on which action was promised by the Minister for Justice, and calls on the Government to take a number of co-ordinated measures to deal with crime, including:
— the immediate reinstatement of the prison building in Castlerea and the women's prison in Dublin and the finding of the necessary economies in public expenditure elsewhere;
— proceeding with a special detention unit for drug addicts and measures to stop the free circulation of drugs within prison;
— the formulation of a constitutional amendment on the law of bail; and
— the bringing forward of legislation to streamline criminal procedures.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
Dáil Éireann
— welcomes the setting up of an inter-departmental committee to review all aspects of the prison project for Castlerea, County Roscommon, taking into account the social and economic impact on Castlerea and the surrounding area and the need to identify and prioritise measures to address such impact;
— notes that the inter-departmental committee will involve formal input from the Castlerea Development Co-operative Society Ltd.;
— notes that the inter-departmental committee will report by end December, 1995, and that there is a commitment to bring the recommendations of the committee to Government without delay;
— recognises the need, at this time, to examine the State's overall offender management structures and capacity against the background of developments taking place in relation to juvenile justice and the impact of the peace process;
— notes that the Government, in deciding to defer the Castlerea prison and the women's prison projects, also decided to conduct a full-scale review of offender treatment options generally, including the wider use of community sanctions and measures as recommended by the 1985 Whitaker Report and more recently in the Prisons Five Year Plan;
— welcomes the measures being taken to prevent drugs being smuggled into our prisons and the provision of treatment programmes within our prisons for those prisoners suffering from drug addiction;
— welcomes the opportunity the peace process presents for reduction in security commitments in favour of greater concentration of Garda and other resources in tackling organised and drug-related crime; and
— commends the comprehensive programme of criminal law reform being undertaken by the Minister for Justice.
—(Minister for Justice.)
I wish to share my time with Deputies Brendan Smith and Callely.
I understood I would have five minutes this evening.
If that is agreed I have no objection.
Is it agreed that Deputy Foxe be included in Deputy Haughey's time sharing proposal? Agreed.
I call on the Minister to reverse her decision on the Castlerea prison. I now hand over to my colleague, Deputy Smith.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. I congratulate my party spokesperson on his initiative in putting down this motion and Deputies Haughey and Doherty on their excellent contributions last night.
Deputy O'Donoghue rightly pointed out that people walk in fear of crime on the streets of every city, town and village. Reference is constantly made at meetings to the spiralling rise in crime, a crime wave which has gained frightening momentum. The public commends Deputy John O'Donoghue and the Fianna Fáil Front Bench on their initiatives in the administration of justice. In his concluding remarks Deputy O'Donoghue referred to the legislative measures he has brought before the House. We have now reached the position where more criminal justice legislation has been prepared by Fianna Fáil, the main Opposition party, than by the Minister for Justice.
The Government's lack of progress in this area reflects its removal from reality and from the serious concerns of citizens. The fact that the main Opposition party has brought forward so much legislation in this area speaks volumes and shows that Fianna Fáil is determined to tackle the issues which afflict people in every city, town, village and parish. It must be the aim of the Legislature to make our streets safe and Legislation which will make life more tolerable for the vast majority of people must not be voted down in the House. Citizens have the basic right to be safe in their homes and on the streets while going about their everyday business. There is now a widespread public perception that criminals have all the rights and that the rights of victims are practically non-existent.
Crime is prevalent in every parish. Last week's edition of my local newspaper, The Anglo-Celt, carried a front page report on vandalism, robberies and the desecration of a graveyard. This is a stark reminder that people cannot even have their dignity preserved in their final resting place. Provincial newspapers carry weekly reports on crimes against people and property. In his Criminal Law (Bail) Bill, 1995, Deputy O'Donoghue made a fair and honest attempt to curtail the ability of people to commit further crime while on bail. The number of such crimes is a cause of further worry for citizens who have suffered serious personal injury or had their property damaged. The demand for the urgent reform of our bail laws has widespread support among the public.
The drugs problem is a cancer which is eating away at the heart of our society and destroying the lives of thousands of young people. Regardless of who they are, people who push drugs on young people are the greatest scourge in the community and deserve appropriate punishment. To allow them to continue destroying the lives of many of our young people is to inflict serious damage on society in both the short and longer term. It is outrageous in the midst of a crime wave that the Government should decide not to proceed with the provision of much needed prison places.
If the Government is serious about solving the escalating crime problem then decisions and measures must be taken to eradicate the growing drugs problem. One problem feeds off another and multiplies, leaving nothing but devastation in its wake. Effective punishment must be meted out to those who peddle drugs to young people, destroying their lives and those of their families. We should be up front and honest about the problem. Ordinary people on the streets know who the drug pushers are, yet they are allowed to walk around the streets and push their lethal goods on young people. We cannot tolerate this situation any longer and the Garda must be given the power and resources they need to take these so-called human beings off our streets and out of the community for good. The message which must go out from this House is that drug pushing does not pay and that those who engage in such activities will be treated with the utmost severity. It is incumbent on the Government to send out the proper signals in this regard and to ensure that those who commit crime against people and property will not be allowed to walk our streets because of a lack of prison places.
This motion deals with a matter of such grave importance that it is difficult to know where to begin. It refers to the Castlerea prison project, the building of a women's prison in Dublin, the escalation of serious crime, particularly in Dublin, and the need to relieve prison overcrowding and to provide modern, humane conditions in detention centres. It also calls for the immediate reinstatement of the Castlerea prison project, the establishment of a special detention unit for drug addicts and measures to stop the free circulation of drugs within prison, the formulation of a constitutional amendment on the law of bail and the introduction of legislation to streamline criminal procedures. I am bitterly disappointed that the Government's amendment proposes to delete all words after "That" in the motion. This gives a clear message that the Minister does not want to know about the escalation in serious crime in Dublin and elsewhere, the need to provide more places in detention centres or to set up a special detention unit for drug addicts.
It is despicable that the Government's amendment begins by stating that Dáil Éireann welcomes the setting up of yet another committee to review all aspects of the Castlerea prison project, taking into account the social and economic impact on the area. In reply to a parliamentary question from me in March 1994 about the increase in drug-related activities in the Dublin area the then Minister for Justice gave a detailed response on how she proposed to deal with this problem.
Another question asks the Minister how she intends to address drug related crime. This is an issue on which one could spend much time and debate but, unfortunately, I do not have sufficient time to go into detail. The Minister came along with a glossy report on drug related crime. She intended to bring to Government as soon as possible proposals designed to identify the best arrangements for achieving a cohesive and co-ordinated response to drug trafficking but she did not address the problem of drug related crime.
I also asked the Minister if she would clarify her commitment to provide the Garda Síochána with the necessary resources to deal effectively with serious, organised and violent crime, the measures she was considering and the submissions and requests she had received on this matter. Again the Minister gave a detailed reply but none of the measures she outlined has been implemented.
On the occasion of my visit to Mountjoy Prison I was appalled to find that drugs were freely available. I collected whatever information I could from the prisoners and reported it to the governor who said he would take draconian measures to address the drugs problem in the prison. I tabled a question to the Minister on this issue and I was disappointed with the response which was similar to the governor's.
In opening the debate Deputy O'Donoghue said old people spend sleepless nights in fear of intruders; that in every house parents are increasingly and justifiably in fear of the free availability of drugs; on every street of every town and village people walk in fear of crime. He went on to indicate the level of violence in shops and said that £10 million had been spent on security equipment to protect personnel and to discourage attack, that £11 million had been lost in cash, goods and damaged property from retail outlets and that there have been 3,800 detected drug offences. He stated we are experiencing a crime wave, unlike anything we had seen previously. I urge the Minister to grasp the nettle on this issue and ensure that the punishment fits the crime. The culture that those involved believe that the punishment does not fit the crime is spreading rapidly. We need to introduce appropriate and radical measures to the issue of crime in society today. There are many suggestions from various interest groups in society on how to address the broad issue of crime.
I regret we do not have sufficient time in which to debate this issue. In relation to crime across the broader spectrum of our community we need to ensure that the punishment fits the crime. We must take additional radical measures and an innovative approach addressing drug related crime. Somebody will have to be strong enough to address the problem.
A paragraph from the report, `Violence in Shops', states:
What is especially starting now is that the nature of theft has changed. It is no longer the quick snatch at the till or the break in late at night when the shop is closed. Theft is now extremely violent, sometimes carefully planned, often drug induced without any heed to the safety of persons or property. Unless concrete action is taken immediately, the situation will deteriorate even further. It will also prompt retailers in desperation to place themselves at greater risk by taking action to defend themselves. This would be a sad reflection on our political and judicial systems.
Who produced that report?
As recently as last week only five minutes before I entered the local post office the postmaster was severely attacked by two young men with a hatchet and received 30 stitches. Those men, who are known to the Garda Síochána, got away. There is a shortage of detention places which is a disgrace and warrants appropriate, urgent and radical measures to address it.
Did that not happen under Fianna Fáil?
It is at an all time high.
The motion and the amendment are cold comfort to the 150 people who thought they would be working in Castlerea prison who have been told that the work will not be there but that the Government will set up a committee to review the situation. It is further cold comfort to be told that there will be formal contact between the new committee and Castlerea Development Co-operative Society Limited who will have a voice in the decision-making process. I can tell the Minister, or anyone who cares to listen, that the decision of the Castlerea Development Co-operative Society Limited will be that work should recommence on the completion of the prison in Castlerea forthwith. There will be no need to devote any further time to worrying about that aspect. This is a case of the cart being put before the horse.
Two and a half years ago the then Government decided that one of the best ways of fighting crime was to provide extra prison places. In June 1994 the first sod was turned on the foundation of the perimeter wall and 12 months later the plug was pulled. A Government Minister made a most unkind remark about the people of Castlerea to the effect that they must have reached an all time low when they rely on the provision of a prison to keep their spirits high. It is easy for a person in a good position to be critical of people who are less fortunate and perhaps unemployed. The people around Castlerea have three options: to go on the dole, to emigrate or to try for work that might be available at home.
Any person who has ever embarked on that God forsaken boat trip to London and other cities throughout the world knows that at least 95 per cent of those who emigrate would willingly come home and remain at home if they could find work but that has been denied to the people of Roscommon. In the past Roscommon lost some jobs. That was not under a particular Government, all parties governed during such periods. The waste of money in Castlerea is a disgrace. In private enterprise, anyone who caused his employer to lose £1.25 million would soon be handed his cards. There is only one way any self-respecting Member of this House can vote this evening — that is in favour of the motion.
I wish to share my time with Deputies Connaughton, Dukes and Eric Byrne.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
As one closely affected by this motion I welcome the opportunity to speak to it. I also welcome the amendment and I hoped my colleague, Deputy Foxe would say a Deputy from the area should vote for it. The amendment states the House welcomes the setting up of an interdepartmental committee to review all aspects of the prison project for Castlerea, and there is a commitment to bring the recommendations of the committee to Government without delay. It is a unique decision for a Government to bring the focus of so many major Departments to bear on this problem.
There is only one Department involved.
I support the building of this prison and do not agree with the decision to defer it. We have said for a long time that the penal system needs more prison places but I do not accept the hypocrisy from across the floor. Since Fianna Fáil went into office in 1987, serious crime has increased at least fivefold. There were 100,000 serious indictable offences last year; it was barely half that figure in 1987 — that is how far this has become out of hand. It is somewhat rich to hear Opposition spokespersons mentioning the need for more prison places and a tougher fight against criminals. Their record in that area has been abysmal. We need prison places whether they are provided in Castlerea or elsewhere. It has been stated that 700 people who are out of prison ought to be inside, but have been prematurely released because there are not enough places in the prison system. This started under Deputy Callely's party. Many of those people are re-offending, which is an absolute scandal. Between £1.2 million and £1.3 million has been spent on the construction of the wall in Castlerea and as a radio reporter said this morning, it is hideously ugly to look at although the building itself is very good aesthetically. In addition, it is often forgotten that the Western Health Board received £3.2 million as a special allocation from the Department of Health to provide alternative facilities for the patients and staff in St. Patrick's Hospital. It had to buy a local hotel and a number of houses to be used as day care centres, not alone in Castlerea but in Boyle, Ballaghaderreen and Strokestown. The health board also had to purchase a site for a training centre outside the grounds of St. Patrick's Hospital where there already was an excellent centre. The level of public spending on this project to date is of the order of £5 million and there can be no going back.
The first paragraph of the amendment to the motion welcomes the establishment of an interdepartmental committee to consider all aspects of the Castlerea prison project. There may be up to five Government Departments involved in this review but the main focus must be on the prison and the provision of places. As a person who represents the area, I think we have gone too far to go back; I do not believe we will do so but I must utter the words of warning. It must be completed. We find ourselves in this confusion partly because when the Department of Justice made this decision over a year ago, it did not say what type of prison this would be or what type of prisoner it would accommodate. In one statement by the Minister it was called a high security prison; in another by a member of the Government it was said it would be a medium security or a juvenile prison. We need time to sort out what kind of prison it will be — whether it will be open or semi-open, or for juveniles, or high security, etc.
In the meantime the Government will let criminal activity continue.
The focus must be on establishing the prison. I am glad the committee will have a broader remit to look at the economic problems of Castlerea, which has suffered more than most towns and urban areas in recent years. The last census, published in 1991, covers the inter-censal period 1986 to 1991; for most of those years Fianna Fáil was in office. The population of that region fell by 9 per cent in that time, which was probably the greatest level of reduction of any part of the country.
In 1982 there were 125 industrial jobs in Castlerea; by 1988 there were only 20, such was the effect of the recession on the town. There was also the proposed closure of St. Patrick's psychiatric hospital, which did not occur until now. In 1986 over 300 people worked in that hospital, which was the major employer in the area. Like all State employment, it was well paid and secure. Naturally, it had an economic effect in the surrounding region. The dispersal of the services around the county and the removal of two-thirds of them from Castlerea, on top of the loss of over 100 industrial jobs, had a huge adverse effect.
It was a long time before there was a response, but I acknowledge that the previous Government agreed to put decentralised Government employment in the town. It was not the most attractive form of decentralisation, perhaps the one type most other areas would not want. However, since Castlerea had been driven so far down the economic spiral it was glad to accept these jobs. It was willing to take a prison despite the problems which would attend upon it. The town was glad of it and welcomed it with open arms.
The Government had to be pleased about that because if it had placed a prison anywhere else it would have run into a storm of protest. In Castlerea, it was the opposite. The prison was seen by the people as giving an economic lifeline to the area. For that reason it must not be stopped and must be seen through to completion.
I appeal to the Castlerea Development Co-operative Society, which has done much good work on this project to make an input to this interdepartmental committee. It is being given an opportunity to put its case to the heads of five of the most important Departments who have a major impact on social and economic affairs. I appeal to it to sit on the committee because it can have an influence there. This committee must report by 31 December and if its findings and deliberations have financial consequences, that will be reflected in the 1996 budget. It is important that the committee is given every chance to operate and, above all, that the area most affected is represented. Nobody can put the case for the area better than local representatives.
The Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill is very important legislation. It means that Irish persons serving sentences abroad can be transferred to serve their sentences in Ireland, as long as the authorities in the host country are willing to transfer them. It has been estimated that might mean 250 additional prisoners in this country within two years.
We are also proposing a referendum, which I support, to reform the bail laws, which have been a great source of complaint. Their abuse is a disgrace and thousands of people are being allowed out on bail to reoffend when they ought to be in captivity. If we reform the bail laws and enact the necessary legislation we will, of course, create a situation where many people who are now out on bail will have to be kept incarcerated putting further pressure on prison spaces. The case is unanswerable.
Like Deputy Connor, when I heard that Castlerea was getting a prison, while I did not exactly throw my hat in the air and say that it was what Castlerea wanted, I agreed with it for two reasons. One was the overall national reason that we appear not to have enough prison spaces. Everybody dealing with crime tells me that this is the case and I believe it is true. The other reason was it needs an injection of spending power. My constituency is very close to Castlerea and I know a fair amount about what is happening there. I do not have to tell this House that prosperity leads to population stability, which is the most desirable aim in the west.
Any Government, particularly this one, has a responsibility to control public spending. The irony is that on the day the Government decided that the public finances were out of kilter and had to be controlled, the Leader of the Opposition was in Cork shouting at the top of his voice that the Government had lost control of public expenditure.
He was right.
The problem was that Deputy O'Donoghue's party did not say what should be cut — it is the same old Fianna Fáil trick of saying that it is against increases in expenditure but it will not say what should be cut.
That is the Government's job.
That is why many people in Castlerea know what Fianna Fáil is doing tonight.
They know what the Government is doing.
They see this is a sham. With regard to the question of Deputies making comments to the effect that Deputy Connor and others should cross the floor to vote on this motion, how many times did a member of Fianna Fáil cross the floor to vote against their own Government? I fully believe that Deputy Connor will deliver. Whatever hope he has inside the Government parties, he certainly will not do anything for Castlerea by being on the Opposition side.
He failed tonight.
I remember when Deputy Doherty was chairman of the Western Health Board and all the business which was carried on in Castlerea at the time——
He is not here.
There was a very important meeting of the health board and many people in Castlerea wanted to meet him as their public representative. He was not to be found on that occasion.
He is not here tonight either.
I agreed at the time with the decision of the former Minister for Justice to put the prison in Castlerea. I heard that she was in Castlerea at the recent public meeting, and rightly so. I was at another public meeting when 800 people lost their jobs in Digital in Galway a few years ago and she was one of a number of Ministers who failed to turn up in her own city.
I find it very difficult to accept the crocodile tears shed by the Opposition over what is happening in Castlerea. I will nail my colours to the mast and say that I hope that the new assessment will ensure that this project will recommence in Castlerea. I am not sure what sort of a prison it will be. However, the people of Dublin cannot tell me that there is a need for a prison or that it is not the right place. I do not hear any criticism of the open prison at Loughan House, County Cavan, which is much more isolated than Castlerea.
Like every household, when it comes to watching how money is spent it is good government to keep our public finances in order. However, the need for checks and balances does not mean that worthwhile projects which have been shelved could not be reactivated in the near future.
Castlerea needs those jobs. Our biggest problem in the west is that we do not have enough people.
There are plenty of Deputies there.
To keep people in the area we must create jobs. Against that background I hope that this project will work and I give every support to my friend and colleague, Deputy Connor. I believe that a worthwhile project will be delivered in Castlerea at the end of the day.
If Fianna Fáil really believes that Government inaction is responsible for a substantial proportion of the crime committed, then its motion is an admission of failure on its part. It is a confession that Fianna Fáil failed to build a women's prison in Dublin; to proceed with a special detention unit for drug addicts; to take measures to stop the free circulation of drugs within prisons; to formulate a constitutional amendment to the laws on bail and to bring forward provisions to streamline criminal procedures. Repentance and confession are probably good for the soul but I do not think that this House should have its time wasted by public breast beating of this kind, and by public flagellation of Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn by her Fianna Fáil colleagues.
Much has been said about the wall at Castlerea. Deputy O'Donoghue does not seem to remember that for a substantial part of the period of seven years Fianna Fáil was in power between 1987 and 1994 there was only a wall at Wheatfield in Dublin and stage two of that prison did not proceed. It is calling for the reinstatement of the prison building project at Castlerea and the women's prison project in Dublin and the finding of the necessary economies elsewhere.
Deputy O'Donoghue said that it is not the business of the Opposition to find these economies. Perhaps not, but if the Government proposed the necessary economies to allow these projects to go ahead the Deputy and his colleagues would oppose them.
That is not correct.
The call for reinstatement by making economies elsewhere is pure pretence and hypocrisy.
The Deputy had his chance.
Deputy O'Donoghue claimed that it is an incontrovertible fact — he is using big words now that his party has a new scriptwriter——
I write my own.
——that the Minister has failed abysmally to articulate a coherent criminal justice policy. If the Fianna Fáil Administration had such a policy the present Minister would have been happy to continue it as she knows a coherent policy when she sees one.
She has not done much in the past six months.
She has the advantage over Deputy O'Donoghue who seems to admit that he has not seen a coherent criminal justice policy. The reason is Fianna Fáil did not have one during the seven years it was in office.
The Minister is a disaster. The crime rate is spiralling.
Does Deputy O'Donoghue think that over-blown language is a substitute for policy? In all the drivel we heard from him there was not one policy proposal.
The Deputy should look at the Order Paper.
The Deputy is seeking measures to stop the circulation of drugs in prisons. What did Fianna Fáil do during its period in office? Is he now proposing that prisoners and their visitors should be strip searched? From what he knows and should know about the way drugs are smuggled into and passed around within prisons can he tell me if there is another way of stopping this? Will he propose this? No, because that would mean he would have to take responsibility for making a proposal.
Is the Deputy in favour of the free availability of drugs in prison?
While Fianna Fáil may be empty on this subject — it did not make one proposal — in all fairness the Progressive Democrats are not much better. I watched earlier this afternoon Deputy O'Donnell's populist posturing during the debate on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill and I can only conclude that the Progressive Democrats have nothing more to say than Fianna Fáil. Both are making one basic mistake — they are assuming that the law and the law enforcement system can prevent crime. I invite them to think about that for a moment. While the law can lay down sanctions and the Garda Síochána can make it more difficult for people to commit crime, there is only one group of people who can stop crime, those who are about to commit a crime. It is about time that Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats stopped talking rubbish about what Governments, Ministers, the courts and the prisons can do——
And Fine Gael when in Opposition.
——and started to talk instead about how we can educate our people properly so that fewer of them resort to crime.
The Deputy should tell us how we should address the drugs problem.
Where is the juvenile justice Bill?
Anything else, including this motion and the rag of an amendment tabled by the Progressive Democrats, is only a waste of time.
(Interruptions.)
The operative word is "time". It is sad but I have to repeat that in keeping with the concept of democracy the members of a three party coalition are meant to share time according to a plan. Fine Gael, the larger party, is being arrogant in disregarding the rights of the smaller parties——
If the Deputy had not wasted ten minutes of my time he would be well into his contribution by now.
——which have as much to say as Fine Gael on the issue of law and order and crime. The next time members of Fine Gael seek permission to share time they should remember they are sharing Government time, not Fine Gael time. Deputies should note that I am angry that I only have five minutes instead of ten.
The incidence of crime, especially violent crime, has reached unprecedented levels. There is widespread agreement that there is a need for extra prison places with improved community policing and rehabilitative services. Unless these measures are implemented in an integrated fashion within the context of a coherent programme for the management of offenders we will simply be applying sticking plasters to society's wounds. That is what the project at Castlerea represents to give the impression that action is being taken when little is being done to tackle the problem. It is for this reason that I welcome the Minister's decision to establish an interdepartmental committee to examine all aspects of the project, judicial, social and economic.
I am delighted that a decision has been taken to conduct a five-year review of offender treatment options with particular reference to the Whitaker report which has been gathering dust for the past ten years. I also support the five-year plan for the management of offenders. Extra prison places must be provided. It is unacceptable that violent criminals are released early having served only a fraction of their sentence. A revolving door system is being operated because of massive overcrowding and the need to release prisoners early. This is unacceptable. It is also unacceptable that prisoners are placed in overcrowded conditions outlined in vivid detail in the recent report of the Mountjoy Prison Visiting Committee. Just as important as the number of prison places available is the regime which confronts a prisoner at the start of his sentence.
We still have to tackle the drugs problem in our prisons. We continue to ignore the simple fact that 80 per cent of petty crime in the capital city is drug related and that our prisons are the final destination for many drug abusers. Every drug abusing prisoner must have access to a methadone maintenance programme and be enabled to continue this programme in the community following his or her release.
Deputy O'Donoghue would have us believe that the vast majority of those convicted of crimes are murderers and rapists. That is arrant nonsense. A large proportion are drug abusers who have been convicted of drug related offences. Our crime levels will not drop unless radical steps are taken in this regard.
I wish to share my time with Deputies O'Donnell and Sargent.
I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.
Initially I would like to stress a simple reality, that vigilant maintenance of law and order is at the very core of any civilised society. It is a basic requirement that each and every member of society feels free to go about their daily life without fear of any form of attack or abuse. Similarly there is no doubt but that in our society the grave duty of ensuring the maintenance of law and order rests with the Government of the day, particularly the Minister for Justice. Therefore the Minister, Deputy Owen, is the person with the ultimate responsibility.
After a period of six months or so in office we must ask whether the Minister has been effective in dealing with her vitally important brief. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever to observe that she has presided over a period of an alarming increase in the level of crime of every type. As a public representative I am only too aware of the growing sense of outrage in the community at what is seen as the rapid development of lawlessness in society.
It would be extremely wrong to blame each and every problem on the Minister. Crime existed before her arrival in ministerial office, and undoubtedly will continue after she leaves her present position. It serves no purpose to claim otherwise. I am concerned however about the appalling change in law and order since the rainbow Coalition took office. Before the last Government left office, we had a Minister who was totally on top of her brief and was energetically involved in a fast moving and exciting programme of policy development and law reform. It was generally agreed that the then Minister, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, was making substantial progress in leading the fight against crime. What do we now have a few short months later?
There has been an alarming increase in crime and the Government seems to have totally given up on the vital need to take on the criminals at every level with all the legislative power and authority of the State. It is frightening to recall the various disasters and mistakes of the last few months. Within a short period of the Minister taking office there was a major robbery at Brinks-Allied. Subsequently there was a major increase in grievous crimes. People are increasingly being gunned down in the street, illegal drug dealing seems to be spiralling out of control, and convicted criminals are either not serving their sentences or are released ahead of time because of lack of prison space.
The Minister has publicly promised to introduce vital legislation in the area of bail without even consulting with Cabinet. Perhaps not surprisingly her Cabinet colleagues have responded badly to her acting in this manner and have largely isolated her. As a result she has been forced to withdraw her only meaningful policy which was to increase the number of prison places by setting up a new facility in Castlerea. What has happened to that project? The rug has been pulled out from under the Minister by her fellow Ministers and we are told that the project is now on hold. When was it decided to set up a committee to examine this matter? The Minister had no such intentions until the Minister for Finance made his announcement, of which she was not even made aware; the previous week she had a different view of the matter.
What is the ordinary law-abiding citizen to make of all this? The only people who are happy with the current lack of policy or direction in the Department of Justice are those who are committed to crime. The slightest sign of lack of commitment and determination in the fight against crime on the part of the authorities is welcomed with open arms by criminals. Any sign that they are winning the battle against our law enforcement agencies only encourages the criminally minded to expand their nasty activities. Unfortunately the only clear signal being sent by the current administration is that it is indifferent, or at least totally incompetent, in taking on and defeating the criminals once and for all.
The Minister's weak performance might not be so serious if the escalation of crime was confined to petty crime. Unfortunately the reality is otherwise. Hardly a week passes without examples of violent crime on our streets. In many cases these incidents have led to either death or serious injury. Similarly, there is every indication that drug-related crime is increasing at a very frightening rate. Does the Minister have the slightest idea of the alarm and fear that is generated among the vast majority of law-abiding people when there is increasing evidence that the Minister is totally paralysed at a time when leadership from her office is absolutely vital to turn the tide?
This is a matter on which there is no room for complacency or inaction. The Minister must do everything in her power to ensure that our law enforcement agencies have every possible support in the battle against crime. In particular the Minister must be seen to immediately respond to the need for legal reform and innovation. Unfortunately the only leadership that the House has seen in the Justice portfolio in recent months has come from the Opposition benches, particularly from my colleague, Deputy O'Donoghue who has worked tirelessly to develop new and vital proposals for law reform. Unfortunately the Minister has not showed the slightest inclination to adopt or amend Deputy O'Donoghue's proposals, or at least follow the energetic example of the Deputy.
Much play has been made of Castlerea prison. When Deputies raised the question of the decision not to proceed with the building of the prison the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Coveney, said that because of the peace process we do not now need a prison. It seems that because of the peace process we will have a society free of crime, but everyone is aware of what is happening on the ground.
Joyriding is a major problem in Cork. Recently a joyrider drove through Cobh at 100 miles per hour. That person was on early release from Spike Island and was on his way from Limerick to Spike Island to sign in before he returned home again. Furthermore the State pays for his travel. That would not be tolerated in any society. That incident should be checked out.
The numbers in the Garda Síochána have been reduced. I am concerned that the Minister for Justice has been sidelined by her colleagues. The position of law and order is very serious; if law and order breaks down everyone pays. I want to send a clear signal to the Government that we will not tolerate inaction. There are problems with early prisoner release and overcrowding in prisons, and we have been told that because a number of political prisoners — the figure of 100 or 120 was given by one Minister — will be released from Mountjoy all our problems will be solved. The peace process is at a very early stage, and the Government is doing a disservice to the people in sending out such a message.
The Government has not dealt with the problem of people who commit crime while on bail. The Minister said that a referendum on bail would be held, but that matter was put on the back burner because some members of the Government parties were not happy with it. We only have to look at recent statements to see that.
I appeal to the Government to reverse the decision on Castlerea prison. When the Government was told in January that it was going down the wrong road in terms of public finances it did not listen, but six months later it changed course. Since it was big enough to realise that it was on the wrong course in terms of public finances it should now do likewise and reverse the decision on Castlerea prison. The peace process should not be used as an excuse that we do not need further prison spaces. There are people who should be behind bars but due to lack of prison spaces they are free. I am in favour of education and support of the less well off in the community, but there is only one solution for offenders: put them behind bars, and the sooner that is done the more protection the public will have.
I too am concerned that the Minister for Justice has been sidelined by her Cabinet colleagues. She has been short-changed in terms of a very important aspect of her brief, the management of prisons. It is wrong to place all the blame on the Minister for the reversal of the decision on the prisons. That was a collective Cabinet decision for which the Cabinet must take responsibility. Just as the Minister for Justice has had to accept responsibility for the refusal by the Labour Party to agree to the constitutional referendum on bail, that party must accept responsibility for the reversal of the decision to allocate 210 extra prison spaces which are badly needed.
In no area of Government is there more need for certainty and equality and decisiveness than in the Department of Justice. If criminal justice policy is faltering, unsure or subject to backsliding, which I believe has been a feature of this particular Minister for Justice, there is a fall-off in public confidence in the competence of the forces of law and order to deal with lawlessness, and that is a very important aspect of people's quality of life. If they do not have confidence in the justice system to protect civic-minded people in their everyday lives from the forces of lawlessness it is a very dangerous development in a democracy.
Enforcement agencies such as prison officers, gardaí and other people who work so hard in the justice area to bring about the protection of individual citizens experience a slippage in morale when there is a backsliding on policy, a revolving policy. We have talked at length in this House about a revolving prison population but it now appears that we have, in terms of justice, a revolving policy, so that when it comes to implementing what was to be a policy there is a change in the Cabinet's attitude to that policy. There was a halfhearted attempt by the Minister to introduce a much needed constitutional referendum on bail which, after the bleating of the Labour Party, was retracted. Now we have a very unpopular decision which had to be made in the context of public spending cuts. The Government is in a pickle, because it is a very unpopular decision and across all sides of this House there is very little support for this cut. My party has been strong in advocating the proper management of the public finances but I believe the provision of prison spaces would be the last area in which we would have advocated a cut. We have been consistent in calling for more prison spaces. We are chronically disabled in our ability to cope with our existing prison population and the demands of the courts who are daily sending people to Mountjoy and to other custodial centres to be dealt with by the penal system.
The Government has made this very unpopular decision, an unfortunate decision for the people of Castlerea and I have sympathy for those people who have found themselves gravely wounded by this reversal of policy by the Government. The Minister has offered no alternative. Whatever about Castlerea the Minister has not offered another site or has not said we will go ahead with the prison spaces in Wheat-field or a green field site. She has just procrastinated and said that this decision has been scrapped or deferred.
The Government amendment on the Order Paper today is the most weakminded, unprincipled response to the debate in this House about the decision to scrap prison spaces. It talks about the setting up of an inter-Departmental Committee to review all aspects of the prison project for Castlerea, County Roscommon, taking into account the social and economic impact on Castlerea. With the greatest of respect, it is not the brief of the Minister for Justice to look into job creation and to look into the decline in the west of Ireland. The brief of the Minister for Justice is to deal with the proper management of offenders in this State. I believe the motion before us tonight is unprincipled. It is an attempt to assuage hurt public opinion in Castlerea and to assuage the backbench Deputies of the Government and indeed of other parties. It is not her job, it is the job of the Minister for the West to deal with the decline in the economic prosperity of the west. It is the job of the Minister for Justice to deal with her own brief, that is the proper management of our prison population.
In general terms the Government is in a pickle because it went mad in the first six months. It went on a profligate spending spree across all Government Departments. It introduced two new ministries. The very first act of this new Government was to introduee two new junior ministries which were unnecessary. It introduced a range of paid chairmen of unnecessary committees and extended and proliferated the whole expensive range of consultants, advisers and programme managers. That is where the spending went mad. It went mad also in the public service. Any objective economic assessment of this Government's economic performance would be that the time had come to call a halt but what a place to cut public expenditure, in the most critical area of this Government's responsibility, crime and lawlessness?
We have received many reports, in this House. We had the Lord Mayor's Commission on Crime, the Whitaker Report, the whole panoply of reports that are gathering dust, from select committees of this House. One of the constant features of all that deliberation and the intellectual investment that went into them was that we did not have enough prison spaces.
In general terms the Minister has a tendency to procrastinate. That is very unfortunate in a Minister for Justice. I have mentioned bail, I have mentioned a whole range of other matters which the Minister has put off to another day. Manana is a feature of this Minister and it is very unfortunate. I believe she is not getting support from her Cabinet colleagues, particularly in the area of provision of prison spaces. As has been stated loudly and clearly by the Garda, by the Prison Officers Association, by the people who are trying to stem the tide of and the escalation of lawlessness in this State, it is absolutely ridiculous to have a situation in which convicted offenders are being released back into the community with reckless disregard to their propensity to re-offend just in order to make space for people who are being sent by the courts to be dealt with by the prison system.
This is one of the chronic causes of a breakdown in law and order in the State. We are blue in the face talking about it in this House. There is crossparty support for the need for extra spaces. Up to 50 per cent of the population in Mountjoy are heroin abusers. When released early they are out to re-offend to feed their habit. This Minister has not introduced one measure to address the impact on criminality of drug addition. It is a crucial part of our re-offending prison population. Any profile of our prison population will show that clearly.
We are not underpoliced. We are underpoliced in Dublin but we have 10,800 gardaí in the State. Where are they? We have to look at how gardaí are deployed at the moment. The Minister constantly abdicates her responsibility for this to divisional heads of the Garda Síochána. The time has come for her to take a positive, proactive attitude on where gardaí are, what duties they are performing. She should look at their rostering, look at the need for community policing. I believe the ratio of one garda to every 326 Irish citizens is fair but we have to look at what they are doing and whether they are being usefully deployed.
The time has come to change the criminal justice system in relation to organised crime and serious drug-related activity. We should look at introducing radical changes in the way in which we investigate crime. We are proposing in our amendment tonight that consideration should be given to the inquisitorial system for dealing with specified serious drug-related criminal offences. The distinguishing feaure of our criminal system at the moment is that it is based on the adversarial system, the need for the prosecution to prove the offence beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe the time has come, with a serious escalation in organised crime and drug-related criminality, to change radically to an inquisitorial system which places the burden of proof on the tribunal and the judge. This is a system which, with specific precautions, such as the video taping of interviews, could go a long way to providing the Garda with the necessary powers of arrest, a change in the right to silence without inferences being drawn and so on. All those measures worked well in the past when the defendant had little protection from the State. Three hundred years ago defendants were not allowed to give evidence, they were often illiterate and had no right to the advice of counsel.
The time has come to consider introducing strong measures based on the inquisitorial system, such as exists in France, for specified criminal offences, particularly organised crime. The essential difference between that system and ours is that in ours the body charged with deciding the issue of guilt or innocence leaves responsibility to the prosecution and the defence to present their cases. The outcome is decided on who fights the best battle. All the aces are stacked in favour of the accused. I have studied this; I have been a student of law and I know the criminal justice system is stacked in favour of the accused. The time has come to redress the balance in favour of the State and the victims of crime.
Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le mo chomhleacaí as ucht a cuid ama a roinnt liom.
I support the Opposition motion, the terms of which are both specific and general. The need for western development underlines its motivation. The case for Castlerea has been well made and it is hard to defend the decision not to proceed with the prison. That decision will have a knock-on effect in allowing crime to spiral and it will force people, with whom I am familiar particularly juveniles to suffer in secure centres that were never designed to hold them. Excuses given for that decision include difficulties regarding public finance and that the Department of Justice will bow to the Department of Education in leaving it to address problems in certain cases.
I agree there is a need for education and rehabilitation but in my constituency the Oberstown Boys Centre, the Oberstown Girls Remand and Assessment Centre and Trinity House are being used as a safety valve for an inadequate penal system emphasised by the decision not to proceed with the Castlerea prison project. Those centres are being run by the Department of Education and yet they house offenders who have committed serious crimes, who escape regularly and are secured only by local gardaí. The gardaí in Lusk, three individuals are charged with the responsibility of overseeing people who have been a danger to society. These criminals are being allowed to wander around a rural community and around farms where people live in isolated areas.
The Government is not simply guilty of mismanagement and neglect of the west, but of being seriously irresponsible on allowing a problem responsibility for which properly lies with the Department of Justice, to be hived off to the Department of Education, a Department which is neither interested nor able to deal with the cases with which it has been charged. The Minister for Education has not visited that area and the Minister for Justice in whose constituency it is, would wash her hands of this matter and would not consider it her responsibility.
Will the Minister for Justice co-operate with her colleague the Minister for Education and not only reverse the decision on Castlerea, but listen to the people who are being forced to accept the results of mismanagement by the Department of Justice?
With due respect to the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, the Government is showing its disdain for one of the most important problems facing our country in the absence of a Cabinet Minister. Crime and drugs abuse are prevalent and it is an insult to the House and to the citizens that a Cabinet Minister is not present for this debate.
Last week there were disturbances in my town of Midleton, gardaí were attacked around 12.30 a.m. and one was seriously injured. Such incidents are not frequent in east Cork, but are increasing. In my village of Carrigtohill the Garda barracks was damaged for the umpteenth time. A good deal of these problems result from the abuse of drugs. It is important that we face up to this problem and attempt to control it. The Government's inaction indicates it is not taking the necessary measures to address the problem.
Parents of teenagers are very worried about the prevalence of drugs and the drug culture that is beginning to take over in this country. Ordinary decent law-abiding citizens are asking what the Government is doing to tackle not only the drug problem, but the escalating crime problem.
Nothing.
The time for committees has passed; it is now time to take action. The citizens demand and are entitled to answers. What is the Government doing about so-called joyriders?
Nothing.
Will the cutbacks affect the garda's ability to fight those death drivers?
They will.
What is the Government doing to combat the distribution of drugs?
Nothing.
Will the cutbacks reduce the effectiveness of the gardaí and customs officers to fight this curse?
Of course they will.
Has the decision to stop work on the prison projects at Castlerea and Dublin been taken because the Minister for Justice stated that the ceasefire in Northern Ireland would make available sufficient places for those responsible for serious crime? I do not recall any great support for that facile excuse. Nobody believes it. The increased numbers of indictable offences, more than 300 a day, indicate the Minister has her head buried in the sand in terms of addressing the real problems.
The walls of Castlerea will be a stark monument to the failure of the Government to face up to the real problems afflicting the peaceful life of the old and the young. The walls in Meath will not make up for the dereliction of duty in not finishing the work on the prisons in Castlerea and Dublin. Where will the Minister provide the 210 additional prison places she promised earlier in the year? Those questions are being asked throughout the country and we have not been given answers. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea will tell the Minister for Justice and his colleagues the questions being asked daily which are not being answered.
I protest at the absence of the Minister for Justice for a debate on one of the most important motions to come before this House since the rainbow coalition took office. The Minister for Justice and what I described here last night as this Billy Bunter Government are becoming increasingly predictable with each passing day. The game plan appeared to be to refer every difficulty to a committee, a commission or an interdepartmental committee.
In a bid to hide her embarrassment at her failure to erect a prison in Castlerea and a woman's prison in Dublin, the Minister for Justice decided to set up an interdepartmental committee to review all aspects of the prison project for Castlerea. Such procrastination and abdication of responsibility will not fool anybody. Previous to that the Minister announced with great aplomb that she would carry through on the commitment made by the previous Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, and build a prison at Castlerea and a women's prison in Dublin, thereby providing 210 prison places. Is it not extraordinary that at that time the Minister did not see any reason to have the matter considered by an interdepartmental committee? Is it not extraordinary that it was only when the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, cracked the whip that the interdepartmental committee arrived on the scene?
In retrospect, I suppose one could say that the public should be thankful the matter is being referred to a committee because, in the light of recent events, it would appear that it was a choice between a committee or building another wall. I hope the interdepartmental committee will be cheaper than a wall. However, no amount of prevarication, indecision or downright obfuscation will hide the truth from the public, which is that this rainbow coalition Government mismanaged the spending of public money so badly that it was obliged to retreat from tackling one of the most serious problems ever to face the country, that of spiralling crime. Countless victims of crime and their families and neighbours will not hold their collective breaths for yet another committee to report to this Minister for Justice.
The people of Castlerea and Roscommon will not be taken in by Deputy Connor's speech or by the Minister's decision to have the committee consult with the Castlerea Development Cooperative Society. If that is such a desirable objective why was it not mentioned when the original announcement was made? In yet another death defying leap into fantasy land the Minister stated that what needs to be addressed is the need for enhanced offender management capacity and the Castlerea project is deferred. There is even a question mark over the validity or accuracy of that statement. The Minister for Finance has yet to say the project is being deferred. It is without doubt an open secret that he wants the project abandoned altogether. This shambles is a remarkable display of political insensitivity and crass ignorance of the plight of the people living along our western shores.
Deputy Foxe is correct in stating that the people of Castlerea would not be so foolish as to believe that a prison will save their livelihoods. It is true that a prison will not save the livelihoods of the people of Castlerea, but it is also abundantly clear that it would enhance the locality and assist people's livelihoods. The Minister for Finance would not have behaved as he did, nor would he have said the things he said if the Labour Party had a Deputy in the constituency of Longford-Roscommon.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
This brings me to the latter day definition of socialism by the Labour Party. What true blooded socialist would deny a lifeline to a town in the west where the population fell by 9 per cent between 1986 and 1991?
Fine Gael.
Fianna Fáil were in office then.
What genuine socialist would destroy the hopes, dreams and aspirations of an area that had a quota of 1,800 to get elected to the county council in 1936 but a quota of only 910 votes in 1991?
Fine Gael.
Where is the socialist——
Where is Deputy Kemmy?
——who would place more importance on political expediency than on the lives of working people? Speaking of Deputy Kemmy, why is he not out on the plinth condemning the abandonment of the working people of an entire locality solely on the basis that they live in the wrong place and vote for the wrong people? I humbly submit that the actions of the Minister for Finance on this matter represent the antithesis of socialism.
This is fantastic. What did the Deputy say?
Deputy Dukes should not interject.
(Interruptions.)
Does Deputy Dukes not have a home to go to?
The word was "antithesis". Deputy Dukes need not be concerned because I can not only read and deliver a speech, I can also write one and if he ever wants me to do so he should let me know.
James Connolly's party has been dying for some years now and we might as well put the lid on the coffin tonight. The Minister will say that public expenditure must be controlled and that is correct, but he has his priorities wrong. It was and is a matter for him and the Government to prioritise Government spending and it is this Government's policy on public expenditure that has brought us to this sad and sorry pass. Where stand the Taoiseach and Fine Gael in all of this?
Alone.
When will the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and the Fine Gael Party show some pride? When will the Taoiseach stop paying the price of his political salvation to the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and the Labour Party?
In 1998.
When will they insist that serious crime is on the rampage and that it must be given the priority it deserves?
That is if it matters to the Government.
I suggest they never will because when the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance crack the whip the Taoiseach dances and the entire Fine Gael parliamentary party waltzes in behind.
How high will they jump?
They had better realise soon they are being led like lambs to the slaughter and are engaged in a political death dance.
The resurrection of the seanchaí.
The Deputy, without interruption, please.
They had better leave the lord of the dance to his own political Machiavellianism and stand up for the people who elected them.
Where is the shillelagh?
I publicly call on the Fine Gael Deputy for Longford-Roscommon, Deputy Connor, to stand up for his people now or forever remain silent.
(Interruptions.)
At 8.30 tonight he must decide whether his political masters are the Minister for Finance, the Tánaiste and the Labour Party or the people of Castlerea and Longford-Roscommon.
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy without interruption.
The people of Longford-Roscommon will draw their own conclusion. This Government's policy on crime is one of reverse mathematics. It appears to believe that crime contracts to fit the available prison spaces. That is akin to saying that building hospitals encourages people to get sick. This is the same kind of policy that gave rise to the miserly increase in old age pensions provided for in the last budget, presumably on the basis that if people had this money they would be better off. The Government appears to believe money can be saved by building walls, that if a wall is built around the Taoiseach's residence, one will save on security costs; equally, that a wall around a psychiatric hospital in Castlerea will save on the cost of a prison. The only question remaining is at which wall should the taxpayers wail?
The Government has been reduced to following what I can only describe as Pink Floyd economics——
(Interruptions.)
Its sole remaining policy is to the effect: we do not need any education, all in all, it is just another brick in the wall.
(Interruptions.)
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 55.
Tá
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bhamjee, Moosajee.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Burke, Liam.
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Dukes, Alan M.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Spring, Dick.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Upton, Pat.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Davern, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick West).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Sargent, Trevor.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Amendment declared carried.
Amendment No. 2 not moved.
Question put: "That the motion as amended, be agreed to".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 54.
Tá
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bhamjee, Moosajee.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Bruton, Joan.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Dukes, Alan M.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Lowry, Michael.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Spring, Dick.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Upton, Pat.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Davern, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick West).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Question declared carried.