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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 7 Jul 1995

Vol. 455 No. 6

Industrial Development Bill, 1995: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purposes of this Bill are: to amend the Industrial Development Act, 1993, to remove unnecessary restrictions on the operations of Forbairt and IDA Ireland; to enable Forfás, Forbairt and IDA Ireland to establish subsidiaries; to allow Forbairt and IDA Ireland to invest moneys in funds aimed at the development of industry, as opposed simply to investment in specific companies; to increase the aggregate limit of grants that may be made to SFADCo to enable it to discharge its industrial development functions and make a number of other minor amendments to the SFADCo Acts, 1959 to 1991; and to provide statutory authority for the payment to county enterprise boards, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, of grants to meet their administration and general expenses and to discharge the obligations and liabilities arising out of the performance of their enterprise support functions.

While a number of the provisions of this Bill are "housekeeping" in nature, overall it will allow the operating agencies to respond to the needs of industry more effectively, thereby adding to the policies aimed at increasing employment and reducing unemployment. I expect a further significant rise in employment in 1995 following from employment growth of 2.6 per cent in 1994.

The Central Bank forecasts that nonagricultural employment could grow by 37,000 jobs in 1995. Undoubtedly, employment is growing strongly. The ESRI, in its recent quarterly report, states that despite some well-publicised job losses, the underlying trend in employment remains firmly upwards. Notified redundancies for the first six months of this year show a significant fall of over 21 per cent compared with the same period last year. Against this positive background, the trend in unemployment figures is disappointing. The ESRI has recently pointed to lower net emigration or a rise in the participation rate as being among contributory factors for the poorer trend in the live register. There is also evidence that those leaving full time education are getting jobs ahead of people who are already unemployed. These factors point to the difficulty not just in addressing the general unemployment problem, but also, in particular, the stubbornly high numbers of those who are long term unemployed. The most recent figures, up to the end of April, which Deputy O'Rourke has probably seen, show only a slight decline as a proportion of the total number unemployed.

I have recently taken a number of initiatives specifically geared towards dealing with this issue. I have increased the numbers who will benefit under the community employment programme this year, giving an average of 40,000 for 1995. In addition, I have proceeded with the recommendations of the task force on long term unemployment to establish a local employment service. The task force is continuing its work to refine community employment type programmes to make them more effective in dealing with long term unemployment. When its report comes to hand in October I will take it very seriously and act upon it.

In parallel with that process I am examining employment strategy to ensure we are doing the best we can to increase employment and reduce unemployment. To this end I have embarked on a policy review in the areas of foreign direct investment, indigenous industry and the broader actions that can improve our ability to turn the good growth we are enjoying into reductions in unemployment. We must raise our sights higher to ensure that people who are unemployed can be reintegrated into the active labour market. This is not a simple task, but a highly complex one that is fundamental to tackling unemployment, particularly long term unemployment.

Government policy on employment has many facets. The purpose is to ensure that sensible macro-economic policies are pursued. Business confidence is high. Business recognises the Government has taken action not only in the budget but also to ensure that prudent provision is made at this stage so that the 1996 budget will comply with the spending standards set — real growth of 2 per cent in public spending. This is in stark contrast with the position adopted in the previous four years when public spending was increased by between 5 to 7 per cent. A stringent approach is being adopted so that the benefits can be shared in terms of improved public services and reform of the tax code to sustain the good employment growth we are enjoying.

The operational programme for industry for 1994-99 which I launched last January sets out a framework within which policy can be developed. An overall target of 20,000 gross new jobs per annum has been set. This target was exceeded by Forbairt and the other development agencies in 1994. I am confident they will maintain this excellent performance in 1995 and in years ahead. The figures to date indicate they are again ahead of target.

While the last operational programme for the period up to 1995 had significant successes — it achieved its 20,000 gross jobs per annum on average target and saw Ireland achieve the highest growth in output and employment in manufacturing in the European Union — it also showed up continuing weaknesses in our industrial performance. These include the static Irish share in European Union markets; the continuing high level of job losses — while 60,624 new jobs were created in the indigenous sector there were 59,043 job losses leaving only a meagre 1,600 extra at work in that sector at the end of that considerable five year programme; the wide discrepancy in performance of the hi-tech mostly foreign owned and traditional sectors and the difficulty in increasing the Irish economy purchases by overseas industry — the figures show that we are in a rut with the proportion of purchases sourced in Ireland remaining fairly rigid.

The new operational programme is setting itself explicit targets not just in gross job creation as in the past but other targets that must be achieved if we are to transform our industrial performance. These include increasing indigenous exports by 66 per cent in value, almost twice as fast as the overseas sectors at 35 per cent. That would be a dramatic turnaround increasing our share of world trade by 20 per cent, the share of raw materials used by foreign companies sourced in Ireland be 15 per cent and the share of GDP devoted to research and development by 30 per cent.

While the gross job target of 20,000 is the same as for the last operational programme much greater emphasis is being placed on strengthening the long term capability of industry to reduce job losses. The operational programme has set itself a target of doubling the net number of jobs from 2,400 over the last programme to 5,000 jobs per annum on average. I want to see these targets exceeded. The agencies have accepted a higher target. The measure of our success is the net number of jobs created rather than the gross number.

Increasing competitiveness is a vital component of our employment strategy if we are to reduce job losses. The House will be aware that I established a new Task Force for Industry Adjustment to identify areas of business at risk from competitive forces and to propose enhanced competitive strategies. It is not a fund for dealing with the rescue of companies in crisis which have let matters deteriorate, it is designed to anticipate changes and help companies to change their product line, operating process, marketing strategies and positioning to respond to increasing competition. The task force includes the social partners as well as the State agencies and is developing a strategy aimed at areas where avoidance of job losses requires major changes and adjustment. I expect it will complete its work of identifying a process for the way forward in the coming months.

In addition to that task force, the IDA and Forbairt work closely with their clients to identify at an early stage Irish or Irish based companies in danger of becoming uncompetitive. The IDA and Forbairt can help companies to improve their competitiveness in a number of ways. They can help them to achieve ISO accreditation, to introduce world class manufacturing standards, to establish research and development functions, to reduce their overheads and work closely with companies which wish to become sub-suppliers to major multinational enterprises. I am pleased that a pilot programme initiated in Galway and Mayo during the past 12 months has been successful and we hope to extend it to other areas as it has helped to develop sub-supply. Forbairt also provides support under the management development programme.

We are eager to encourage development in the small business and services sector, traditionally high providers of wealth and employment in Ireland, but that sector was confined to something of a cinderella in the past. It is important that its role is recognised as it has been in our Programme for Government.

We have put in place structures like the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Small Businesses and Services under the chairmanship of my colleague, Deputy Creed, which I hope will ensure that the House will not forget the needs of small business and services. Deputy Creed is assisted by many Members on all sides who devote a good deal of energy to that work. The committee is reviewing policies, examining the effectiveness of State assistance, considering compliance costs, bringing in front-line small business operators, examining the role of financial institutions and the North-South dimension. That is important and the committee has a heavy work schedule.

I have been keen to put in place a consultative body which will interact directly with me, as Minister for Enterprise and Employment, so that I can hear at first-hand the views of business people. I am establishing a small business forum under the chairmanship of Mr. Aidan O'Boyle, who I am sure is known to Members. He is a man of immense experience spanning Ireland and the EU. He set up a small business and is familiar with national and international markets. He will bring a good deal of energy to the forum.

I am keen that the forum will be representative of all interests interacting with the small business sector. I will contact the representative groups, including small business practitioners. The role of the forum will include, among other things, assessing new initiatives that will help to build the capacity of small businesses as they must respond to rapidly evolving changes in the marketplace in which they must survive and prosper for the future. It is important to examine new ways in which they can meet those challenges and equally important to review progress and refine the recommendations of the valuable Task Force on Small Business set up by the former Minister, Deputy Brennan. That task force set an agenda we are anxious to carry through. The forum will also consider administrative simplification. A repeated plea of the small business sector is that it faces too great a bureaucratic burden of compliance costs with various State regulations and it is important to address and minimise that burden.

I will introduce a new scheme to provide long term fixed rate finance at a subsidised rate to small business. It will be the main element of the small business operational programme that will be developed by my Department, the European Union and the banks. We will build on the success of the last scheme and improve the new scheme in a number of significant respects. We will provide a larger fund which will be open to new classes of small business, such as the service sector and start-up firms and we will reduce the minimum loan of £40,000 under the old scheme to £20,000. That will open up opportunities to many smaller businesses that may not have pursued projects because of that high threshold.

The financial institutions have demonstrated keen interest in running a new scheme and I am pleased that tenders from banks have been positive. We will soon have a consortium of banks running that scheme, an innovative approach that will draw on the experience of a number of financial institutions in their dealings with small business and secure better value for taxpayers' money. The fund for the new scheme will be at least £200 million, double the amount available under the previous scheme. I hope we can succeed in achieving a higher fund. I am confident that the interest rate will be at least equal and, I hope, lower than that available under the first scheme. The money will be available over a seven year period and I will announce details of the new loan fund in the very near future.

While those measures will create additional jobs. I am conscious of the need to ensure that all members of society, especially the young and unemployed, have access to those new opportunities. I am committed to pursuing a range of active labour market measures to improve access to jobs that will include the provision of work and the development of job-related skills. A local employment service is now established in a unit within my Department. The first 12 partnership areas are putting together plans which will be submitted by the committees in the near future. It is important that the new unit recommends policy proposals and initiatives to tackle the issue of long term unemployment. I am enthusiastic about the approach of local communities in responding to local needs.

I am also working on a White Paper on Human Resource Development and Training. One of its main objectives will be to raise the horizons of Irish companies to enable them to plan a strategic position for their companies that emphasises high value added and the use of high skills to achieve a competitive edge. We must seek to develop learning organisations that view staff development as an integral element of the fight to maintain and increase competitive capability. The White Paper will also address important policy issues such as skills gap, in-company training and ensuring maximum value from the training budget. I am engaged in extensive consultations with the social partners in preparing that paper. It is clear there will need to be a strong and sustained national effort to tackle unemployment and no one measure can solve it. The Bill has developed from many initiatives outlined in the broad framework of the operational programme for industry in so far as it represents new initiatives, but some housekeeping issues need to be dealt with.

Forfás has made a significant contribution to maintaining the broad policy focus recommended by Culliton and Moriarty, particularly in respect of the wider business environment. The issues being addressed by Forfás, including industrial costs, taxation, telecommunications, finance for industry and the State's future role in the provision of industrial property, are crucial to the competitiveness and growth of enterprise.

The policy and co-ordination functions of Forfás include an important science and technology component. That includes co-ordination of Ireland's involvement in the EU Framework Programme for Research and Development. In addition, Forfás provided extensive back-up to the recently published report of the Science, Technology and Innovation Advisory Council. In the coming year Forfás will continue its work with STIAC and Mr. John Travers, chief executive officer of Forfás, is currently chairing the task force established by the Government to respond to STIAC's recommendations.

I will now deal with the main provisions of the Bill. The Industrial Development Act, 1993, which established the three new agencies, Forfás, IDA Ireland and Forbairt in January 1994, confined to Forfás only the power of the former IDA to acquire, hold and dispose of land and property. While the original intention was to give Forfás, Forbairt and IDA Ireland the basic power to acquire, hold and dispose of land and other property, paragraph 1 (2) of the First Schedule of the 1993 Act confines that power to Forfás only. That has had two main effects, neither Forbairt nor the IDA can hold land either for administrative or industrial development purposes and neither of them can acquire, hold or dispose of shares in their respective client companies. The fact that the operating agencies did not have these powers to date did not constrain them in the performance of their industrial development tasks.

Section 3 rectifies this anomaly by allowing Forbairt and IDA Ireland to acquire, hold and dispose of land and other property, in accordance with such assignments of those powers as Forfás, under the supervision of the Minister, approves under section 9 of the 1993 Act.

Section 4 is related and provides for the transfer of shares in client companies, currently vested in Forfás, to Forbairt or IDA Ireland, as the case requires. Currently the executive agencies may only invest moneys in specific undertakings, on a project by project basis. My Department and the agencies are, however, developing certain options for the creation of development funds, some specific to particular industrial sectors — for example, software — and some more general in nature. Section 6 provides for the necessary powers in respect of seed and venture capital. The funds involved could include moneys sourced from the Structural Funds or other EU funding sources. Activity by the agencies in this area would be subject to ministerial supervision.

An equity capital survey of indigenous industry, carried out by my Department in 1993, found that 34 per cent of respondents had a current equity requirement and 58 per cent had either a current equity requirement, or would have one in the next three years. A total of 78 per cent of firms which an equity requirement considered that raising equity would be difficult. These findings, together with other work in this area, indicate that many small and medium sized manufacturing firms have difficulty raising the required equity and the growth of such companies is constrained through a lack of availability of equity capital.

Under the EU Operational Programme for Industry 1994-99, a sum of up to approximately £33 million will be available for seed and venture capital investment. The object of the fund for seed and venture capital support from Structural Funds is to provide equity and management support to growth oriented small and medium sized enterprises. This support will be expected to facilitate significant growth in the investee companies that, in turn, will be expected to generate employment opportunities in these companies. To date venture funds have not strayed into the smaller end; they have tended to want more gilt edge investments. These new funds will be important for access to equity by business.

Financial support from the EU Structural Funds would be made available to applicant organisations involved in seed and venture stage equity investment in growth oriented firms. Under the scheme, Structural Funds would be entitled to rank equally with private sector funding in terms of dividends and repayment of capital. In addition, any allocation of EU support funding would be conditional on an equivalent level of matching private sector funding.

Overall, during the lifetime of the scheme, it is expected that equity support will be provided to many small and medium sized enterprises which would otherwise find it difficult to raise the necessary equity for the particular ventures. Section 6 will enable the agencies to be involved in the disbursement of these funds and enable them to set up other funds, as required, using their own money in partnership with private sector third parties.

The Bill also proposes in section 5 an enabling power to allow Forfás, Forbairt or IDA Ireland to establish subsidiaries. While there is no proposal to set up specific subsidiaries at present, there are areas of activity, particularly in relation to Forbairt, that may in future be considered more appropriate to be carried on outside the mainstream of the agency concerned. The creation and operation of any subsidiaries would be subject to controls exercised by me, as Minister for Enterprise and Employment, and the Minister for Finance.

I am taking the opportunity provided by the introduction of this Bill to provide for the further financing of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited. Specifically, the Bill provides in section 8 for an increase from £150 million to £200 million in the upper limit on the aggregate amount of grant-in-aid, voted annually, that may be made to the company. The grant-in-aid moneys are applied towards meeting the company's running expenses and enabling the company to provide financial assistance to companies at the Shannon Free Zone. The last occasion that legislation increasing the aggregate limit on grant-in-aid was enacted was in December 1991, when the limit was increased from £105 million to £150 million.

In the years 1992 to 1994 Shannon Development has assisted in the creation of 4,352 gross new jobs in the industrial areas for which it has responsibility, resulting in a net increase of 844 jobs in the Shannon Free Zone and Irish-owned companies throughout the mid-west region. At the end of 1994, employment at the Shannon Free Zone had reached an all time high of 5,600. The company also completed work on the first phase of a 250 acre extension to the National Technological Park, and by the end of 1994 employment at the park had reached approximately 3,000.

The company has continued to adopt a more commercial approach to its operations and to reduce its dependence on direct State funding to meet its operating costs. The Exchequer contribution to the company's operating budget declined from 22 per cent of the budget in 1992 to 16 per cent in 1994 as a result of increases in the company's income from other sources.

The proposed increase in the statutory limit on the aggregate amount of grant-in-aid that may be issued to the company is expected to be sufficient to cover the company's operations for the next four years. In 1994 the EU Commission approved an extension to the end of the year 2000 of the cut-off date for the availability of the special 10 per cent rate of corporation tax for new international service industries establishing in the Shannon Free Zone.

The company also has ambitious plans for the future development of the National Technological Park, including additional capital investment of £100 million by the private sector in new industrial facilities and the achievement of 5,000 jobs at the park by the end of the century. The company will, of course, also be continuing its industrial development role throughout the entire mid-west region.

Other technical provisions in the Bill are also proposed in relation to SFADCo concerning pension arrangements for employees of the company's wholly-owned subsidiaries and a proposed exemption from stamp duty in relation to land acquisition, to align the arrangements applicable to SFADCo, Forfás, Forbairt and IDA Ireland.

The provisions of section 10 will secure to the Minister for Enterprise and Employment the power to make grants to the county enterprise boards from Exchequer funds to enable them to undertake activities in support of enterprise. This power has not been required to date as the boards have been functioning under the direct technical supervision of my Department, which has managed their financial transactions. The boards will soon be moving to a new basis of operation, in which they will function as independently-controlled local enterprise development companies limited by guarantee with direct responsibility for the management of their finances, hence the need for this provision.

The county enterprise boards are now in a position to provide an expanded range of services to enterprise, including financial supports and, notably, business advice and counselling and management development support to small firms. Their central role in the formulation of the local economic agenda through their enterprise plans and the promotion of an enterprise culture at local level will also be strengthened. Much of this activity will be eligible for European Union cofinancing under the Operational Programme for Local Urban and Rural Development.

I pay tribute to the achievements of the county enterprise boards to date. Already, their enterprise plans constitute a major advance in securing local input to national enterprise planning and their existing counselling and referral services provide a valuable resource to potential entrepreneurs and existing small businesses nationwide.

The interim county enterprise fund grant scheme managed by the boards, which provides fixed capital, employment and feasibility study grants to assist small business start-ups and expansions, has evoked a major response. Since the inception of the scheme in late 1993, assistance has been approved in respect of some 3,723 projects with an aggregate grant value in excess of £32 million and the potential for 5,726 full-time and 1,429 part-time jobs. Figures supplied by the boards indicate that, from their establishment to the end of 1994, 1,776 full-time and 263 part-time jobs were created in county enterprise board projects. Almost £5 million was drawn down by the boards in grant support in 1994. They have already achieved that target in 1995 and their level of activity is increasing. This provision can only strengthen the performance of county enterprise boards in their key role in the drive for enterprise development locally and nationally.

The boards work closely with other industrial development agencies and with the Leader groups and area partnership companies. Each board is assisted by an evaluation committee, the purpose of which is to provide technical assistance to its board on the evaluation of projects with a view to ensuring the commercial viability of those projects. The evaluation committee is a unique and valuable arm of the county enterprise board structure in that it provides an independent means of examining projects at local level in the cold light of day. This will help ensure good value for taxpayers' money in the future.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I am glad to have an opportunity of contributing to this debate and particularly pleased that the attempt to have all Stages passed today was resisted so that we can table amendments. If the debate had ended at 4.30 p.m. we would have had half an hour only within which to debate amendments which I intend tabling for Committee Stage and to take Fourth and Fifth Stages. This affords us an opportunity also to look at the overall structures of IDA Ireland, Forbairt and Forfás and examine them in some detail. I was even more surprised at the attempts to have this Bill rushed through at the eleventh hour because on an Adjournment Debate, when Deputy O'Malley shared his time with me, it clearly emerged that this Bill would have to be introduced to increase the limits for SFADCo but no such decision was taken.

This is an important Bill whose provisions warrant careful consideration, and highlight a number of issues with regard to the accountability of Government Ministers which need to be addressed. It also raises questions about the status of the industrial development agencies, State-sponsored bodies and the operations of the Oireachtas committee system. I have no difficulty with the industrial development promotion agencies, which undertake much useful work, in particular within competitive international marketplaces and at home in encouraging indigenous industries and enterprises. IDA Ireland has a remarkable record of achievement and, as one of the longer established industrial agencies, is envied on the international circuit, which can be seen from United States industries moving to Europe, of which it takes a quarter of the total market share.

On occasions such as these one has a brief opportunity to look back on the historical development of agencies. Looking back through the Official Report, I found the first debate was in 1950. It made interesting reading, during a period of strong protectionism, in the post-war depression, when the then Government set out cautiously on the route to such development, little knowing then the ultimate result.

The first Industrial Development Authority, as we knew it, was formed in 1969. I read the Official Reports of that debate, to which my father made a major contribution. Even then his questions related to the accountability of the new agency to Ministers and the Oireachtas and posed similar questions on the duplication of agencies, asking where it was all going. My reaction was: "plus ça change, plus ça, la même chose”. He believed then too many agencies were emerging. One wonders what he would say now with the proliferation of industrial promotion agencies ranging from IDA Ireland to Forfás, FÁS, Leader, county enterprise boards, area partnerships, social welfare schemes, five Ministers in total, with many Minister all concerned to be involved in job creation and yet the figures are not good.

The latest structures for the industrial promotion agencies have come about with legislative changes made in 1993, some of which I piloted through the Seanad when the then Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Quinn, was not available. When the Industrial Policy Review Group chaired by Mr. Jim Culliton reported at that time it did not examine the accountability of Government Ministers in relation to the activities of those agencies. It was not within its remit; perhaps it should have been.

It is regrettable that additional information is not available to the Oireachtas and the public on the work of IDA Ireland and other State agencies. As often pointed out by the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, I am not suggesting that sensitive information should be furnished. Nonetheless, an amount of detailed information on projects is held in the Department of Enterprise and Employment and other Government Departments which should be released and which would not prejudice the ability of IDA Ireland to attract industry here. Information that should be furnished relates to the operations of companies locating here and all the grants available to them. At present the IDA Ireland annual reports give information only on the grants paid within that year, which might comprise a small instalment of a total grant. I strongly believe if such information were given on the signing of contracts it would not prejudice the work of IDA Ireland.

Because of the failure of the 1993 and earlier Acts to make greater provision for accountability, I propose that such accountability provisions be included in this Bill, in respect of which I will be tabling amendments on Committee Stage.

In addition, the Dáil committee structure should be amended to provide for the attendance of executives from IDA agencies before them and to furnish relevant information. I understand that would be their wish but, before doing so, various Government Ministers must make a decision to free up such executives, allowing them to furnish relevant information which would help to direct industrial policy, thus guiding legislators and others in determining the value of money for the vast amounts of money being expended. That can be done in various ways. While not suggesting that we should establish another public expenditure committee. IDA Ireland and other State agencies could appear, for example, before the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies, for which there is already a precedent, as pointed out by the Minister, when in Opposition, when he was very much more scathing of IDA Ireland than I would ever consider appropriate. Therefore, I hope he will view amendments I table in the light of the much greater quantity of information I want provided to the public and this House than is the case at present.

Committees have already been given powers to call for persons, papers and records from various bodies and to summon appointees to high office which, theoretically, could allow the chairmen and chief executives of the industrial promotion agencies to appear before them. However, such appearance would be useless since they are bound by confidentiality clauses specified in legislation and regulations. Since this can be regarded as innocuous information, such agencies should be freed from ridiculous gags on their operations and a Government decision taken to allow them to furnish as much information as possible. For example, the Department of Enterprise and Employment has direct computer links to IDA Ireland, Forbairt and Forfás, which provides the Department with important detail much of which can and should be furnished to the public and Members. It must be remembered that we are talking about taxpayers' money, rather than of any Government of the day.

Whenever I raise an issue on an Adjournment Debate or by way of Private Notice Question, I am constantly irritated that the Minister always begins by saying: "We must all be very careful on this occasion lest rash words might have the effect of A, B, C, or D". That is wrong. While one should have due regard to the sensitivities of any given set of circumstances and have trust in the knowledge and expertise of an Opposition spokesperson, regardless of his or her party affiliation, we are entitled to such information. Indeed I have a litany of answers furnished by the Minister detailing reasons he could not furnish me with information I sought.

While aware that the Taoiseach said people had not asked the right question, advancing that as the reason they had not received the correct answer, I have endeavoured to pose questions in so many varied ways, yet the answer always is: "I am precluded from discussing this matter". Yet the information I seek is that which should readily be available to any citizen.

IDA Ireland is a State-sponsored body that does not have an accounting officer. Under our present legislative provisions, accounting officers are Secretaries of Departments who appear before the Committee of Public Accounts and others to furnish them with information. If the system were amended, rendering IDA Ireland a fully fledged semi-State body — under which it would receive a grant from the Department of Finance instead of forming part of the Vote of the Department of Enterprise and Employment — it would have an accounting officer for such purpose. Therefore, the chief executive officers of the industrial promotion agencies must be freed up by ministerial decisions.

An example of the important information required is in figures relating to job realisation rates. Each month IDA Ireland, or rather Government Ministers on its behalf, announces large numbers of new jobs but, several years after, we are never aware whether they have been delivered. When one asks whether they have or whether there has been any financial clawback because of employment targets not having been achieved, invariably the reply is that that information is confidential between the industrial agency and the relevant company and cannot be released. I do not know why.

Under the new reporting structures IDA Ireland and Forbairt will, through Forfás, furnish annual reports merely on net jobs and gross figures whereas it would be valuable to know how many such earlier announcements turned to ashes. While such information would be sad at least such action would be more realistic and leave everybody more fully informed.

It would be helpful to know which companies create the greatest number of jobs and those that shed jobs each year. I have now received that information which has not been made available previously. If I have time at the end of my contribution, I will read the names of those firms into the record. This information should be made available to everyone. It is not sensitive or commercially damaging but it is important.

Under the new legislation introduced in 1993, there are to be three-yearly reviews not just of industrial policy. That should be done on a yearly basis and it will be the substance of one of the amendments I will be tabling on Committee Stage. Technology allows rapid analyses of statistics and such data should be available each December rather than at the end of a three-year period. That would help the development of a responsive and focussed industrial policy. Without those annual reviews, we are all working in the dark. Yearly reviews would also encourage greater political accountability because at the end of a three-year period the Government may have left office and, therefore, would not be accountable. A new Minister may say the review was not his or her responsibility. If the review was undertaken on an annual basis, there would be greater accountability and availability of information.

It is 26 years since the IDA and the various industrial agencies came into being in one form or another and it is time we had greater accountability and information available to us. This is the 1990s, not the 1960s, and while we hear much about the wonders of technology, they have not had an effect in Government Departments. There seems to be a type of culture in individual Departments to make available as little information as possible, and in saying that I do not exclude ourselves. I do not know why that is the case because when we are talking about job creation targets, it is vital that we know whether the figures being bandied about are accurate. If large numbers of jobs are announced, it is important for us to know whether those jobs are realised, if money is given back to the State in the clawback to which I referred and, if not, why not. It is important to know also if we are engaging in employment promotion in the wrong areas. Such data would be very useful.

Part of this Bill has come about because of the difficulties in Shannon Aerospace. I endorse the efforts made by the Minister to support jobs but I am greatly concerned about his reluctance to provide information in relation to the deal that has been signed with Shannon Aerospace shareholders. The Minister has declined to give information about the grant clawback. He has also declined to say why the other shareholders in Shannon Aerospace are unwilling to put up equity along with the State. The Exchequer has put up £35 million for Shannon Aerospace and while that is worthy because it will provide employment in the mid-west, greater detail should be made available on that expenditure, the deal that has been signed and the arrangements which I read about in The Irish Times in regard to German workers.

While this legislation is welcome because it rectifies serious problems which emerged in the legislation governing the dividing of the original IDA into three bodies, I have some concerns. What is the motivation for this legislation? Is there a plan to dispense with Forfás? The Minister praised Forfás but I particularly want to praise the chief executive, Mr. John Travers. In my dealings with him at the Department of Enterprise and Employment I found him to be a man of fine ability coupled with an entrepreneurial spirit and a social conscience. The Minister referred to Forfás in an odd manner. He seemed to be hinting at something and I would like to know if there is some intention to diminish the responsibilities of Forfás in the future or even to have it abolished. It appears there is a move to give greater powers to Forbairt and IDA Ireland. I would like the Minister, when replying, to give an explanation for those changes.

I am pleased that section 3 gives back to the IDA the power to hold and acquire property. Since the split, the IDA could not offer an integrated package combining finance, buildings and land and investors had to go to another agency. Such toing and froing is not helpful. I welcome the section but it should be extended further than is proposed in the Bill and I will be tabling an amendment to that effect. The property and lands now in the hands of Forfás should be transferred to the IDA and Forbairt. The IDA and Forbairt should have explicit powers to enter into mutual arrangements with the private sector to provide land and buildings and to enter into financial arrangements to secure the development sought. The lack of buildings and land is becoming a severe constraint on IDA Ireland in particular.

Some years ago, many so-called "advance factories" lay derelict and were subsequently vandalised. As a result, those factories were rendered useless. That approach to the building of factories was incorrect. Perhaps it was born out of heady optimism. We all thought the behind every bush in Ireland there was an American, a Japanese or a Chinese investor waiting to offer us huge sums of money to build factories for which they were getting huge grants in return. We have grown up since those days and we know we must fight to attract firms in the international market.

The decision was made to put an end to the building of advance factories, I am not sure by whom. That decision, however, went a little too far. We now have a situation where there are almost no advance factories and that is wrong. Such unoccupied buildings cost a lot of money in terms of security but there must be some way they can be leased by the IDA. It should be able to attract investors to, say, Athlone which has good employment prospects, a very good workforce and all the relevant infrastructure, telecommunications and third level institutions. The IDA could woo investors and show them these unused buildings in which their firm could be located. Such ideas should be considered.

I am concerned that section 4 might create more bureaucracy. It gives powers to Forfás to order a switch of shares in the IDA and Forbairt. Surely the IDA and Forbairt can agree this between themselves rather than having it put into law. Are there high walls around these agencies?

There are around the Taoiseach's house.

I speak of metaphorical walls, not physical ones. Are there high walls of misunderstanding and alienation between the agencies? I hear stories of two branches of Forbairt and the IDA set up in the one building who are engaged in turf warfare of a politically ferocious kind as to who answers the phone for whom, whose post goes into which pigeon hole and who answers queries on subjects that are the province of another. That is just plain silly. If they are engaged in getting much needed jobs into this country, surely there is no room for preciousness about putting one's foot on another's turf.

Although the Minister says there are no current proposals to set up subsidiaries under section 5, perhaps he would clarify what types of subsidiary he has in mind. He said earlier:

The Bill proposes in section 5 an enabling power to allow Forfás, Forbairt or IDA Ireland to establish subsidiaries. While there is no proposal to set up specific subsidiaries at present——

I would bet the idea is lurking in somebody's mind——

——there are areas of activity, particularly in regard to Forbairt, that may in future be considered more appropriate to be carried on outside the mainstream of the agency concerned.

County enterprise boards have been a success. The Department and the Minister have been slow to give them proper funding. They have been slow to loosen the apron strings. However, these boards are now taking up what was previously regarded as being of too small a nature to come within the ambit of the IDA or Forbairt. The executives in those agencies were accustomed to thinking in megabucks so that the man or woman who approached them with a modest proposal requiring modest funding, etc. was not greeted with alacrity by the IDA or Forbairt. However, county enterprise boards were receptive to small businesses and were active at parish, county and community level. What has happened now is that more turf wars have sprung up between Forbairt and county enterprise boards. Forbairt is now realising that there is much activity within the county enterprise areas and wants to get in on the action.

The Minister said there are areas of activity, particularly in relation to Forbairt, that may in future be considered more appropriate to be carried on outside the mainstream of the agency concerned. We now have county enterprise boards, Forbairt, FÁS, IDA Ireland, county leadership teams, social welfare back to work schemes, subsidisation schemes, etc. Will other agencies be set up under Forbairt on a regional and county basis? It appears Forbairt wants to get in on the action of county enterprise boards. I suggest that they forget the idea of setting up more subsidiaries and concentrate on the remit laid out in the 1993 legislation. This section contains just the kind of proposal I do not like to see in legislation. It betokens that deep in somebody's mind — I rather think an executive mind talking to civil servants — is the idea that this should be included in the legislation so that they can plough ahead and set up whatever they want without having to answer questions from the Opposition or be accountable.

The provision in section 10 to give legal powers to the county enterprise boards to give loans is welcome. The boards have been starved of resources and of power since their establishment. I know from my time in the Department of Enterprise and Employment that they were on a wing and a prayer as to when, how and where they would get their money. Some would argue that they are an unnecessary duplication in the industrial promotions services, but if they are to exist they should be given the power to give loans. Loans represent a better option for the county enterprise boards than grants.

County enterprise officers have told me they want to do away with the grant mentality and have the chance to put their money towards the subsidisation of loans at a fixed rate of interest for a decent length of time so that people putting money into a business will have security rather than having to cope with vacillating interest rates on the open market. Grants induce the feeling that everything will be fine, but when the efficacy of the grant wears off one is still in the same situation. Grants often force the promoter of a project to spend a corresponding or a greater amount to achieve the grant. This is not always satisfactory. Loans concentrate the mind of the promoter as he must get his business up and running in order to repay the loan. Loan powers for county enterprise boards represent a more focused approach.

County enterprise boards could be further strengthened by giving them flexibility to give moratoriums on repayments for the first year of a new business or subsidies by way of interest relief. In general the county enterprise boards need to be given greater resources and their work needs to be given greater priority by the Government.

The Minister made much play of employment. I wish the same intensity of effort were given to unemployment as is given to employment. When the economic forecasts indicate that all is rosy, so to speak, I imagine that there is all over Ireland a weariness about reading another set of rosy statistics which mean nothing to the long term unemployed man or woman who wonders if there is any reason for getting out of bed. It is alarming that there are now 134,000 long term unemployed people, 51 per cent of whom are in the Dublin and greater Dublin areas. That is a huge statistice, and we hide behind it and say it is terrible. However, each person among that number is a person with hopes and aspirations now dimmed, perhaps with a family, with self-confidence slipping and assurance long gone as the length of time of unemployment grows.

The Minister has set up his unit and there are excellent people in charge of it. He has set certain targets, but he has not set number targets for the long term unemployed. Although the percentage rate has gone down, there is an increase of 1,000 people from 1 November to 30 April this year who are long term unemployed. That period is mostly within the term of the present Government. We did not pay intensive attention to unemployment. The buzz word was entrepreneur. It was as if everyone was caught up in the good ship enterprise. The mates on the good ship employment did not receive the same degree of social concern as did those on the entrepreneur ship. They can co-exist but it requires hard work. The ESRI reports state that we must give political thought and direction to the problem of long term unemployment. The lives of thousands of people will be blighted because this and previous Governments did not attend to the problem. We said the rising boat would lift everyone but it is not doing so as recent statistics show.

I will take the opportunity on Committee Stage to refer to the number of firms who created jobs and the number that lost them. It will make salutary reading and it has a distinct bearing on the point I made about hyped-up job announcements that amount to dashed hopes.

The Minister should give information to the House and not hide behind phrases such as "it would be incorrect to do so"; "my hands are tied"; "it is confidential"; "it is sensitive and I cannot disclose it". We are fed up with that. This Government was supposed to be all things to all people. It was to be open and transparent. This was to be practised every second of every day. I have a file of replies that state: "I cannot give the information"; "I am precluded from giving the information"; "I cannot disclose the information". I want the information to formulate policy. Public money is given to employment agencies and the public have a right to know if targets are realised.

The introduction of the Bill gives us a brief opportunity to consider industrial policy as it stands in the mid-1990s, three years after the Culliton report. At this juncture, policy is in a confused and fragmented state. The various agencies are in a mess and constantly complaining. Both the letter and the spirit of the Culliton review group's report have been abandoned. The vision which Culliton and his colleagues had and expressed so articulately is cast aside in favour of short term expediency and pressure response.

As is usual with industrial development Bills, this Bill largely confines itself to making recommendations about agencies as if they were the be all and end all of industrial policy. Although Culliton states on page 59 that "the activities of the agencies are now less significant for industrial performance", on page 77 he states that "industrial policy interventions need to be delivered in a more integrated and cost effective manner". Neither of these recommendations is met by the Bill. On the contrary, the Government choose to go in the opposite direction.

Culliton recommended in Chapter 9 that we should have one overseas agency and one domestic agency, for the good reason that overseas promotion is different from indigenous development. We have an extraordinary proliferation of agencies as set out in the 1993 Act and copperfastened in this Bill. Where Culliton recommended two, we have 40 statutory agencies directly involved in the promotion of industrial development.

Having served approximately eight years as Minister for Industry and Commerce I am the most experienced surviving holder of that office. With the benefit of that experience I can say with confidence that this proliferation of agencies is sheer lunacy. The 40 agencies are made up of 35 separate county enterprise boards each with its own board and chief executive and each competing with the others plus the IDA, Forfás, Forbairt, Shannon Development and Údarás na Gaeltachta. In addition, I am informed by the Department that we have 33 area partnership boards which, in some respect, are like county enterprise boards. On top of that we have various marketing boards which should be included under Forbairt but which are autonomous. These include ABT, An Bord Bia and BIM. There is at least one important non-statutory board in An Bord Bainne. So far we are at 77 and still counting.

Among our national blessings I have not yet counted FÁS. It is truly something special. Its greatest problem is it cannot spend all the generous funds it gets every year from Irish and European taxpayers. However, it must get full marks for trying. There is almost nothing on which FÁS has not spent money. It outdoes Gay Byrne — it does not just have something for everyone in the audience but for everyone in the country.

Another jewel among our national treasures is the Irish Productivity Centre. Some years ago, I suggested it might consider dissolving itself or at least operating without public funds but I was not successful because I see the House was asked today to almost double the IPC's grant-in-aid for this year. It is clearly determined to maintain itself, to what purpose I am not clear.

In giving this list, where we reach almost 80, I have not dealt with the Leader groups and boards which would bring the total to over 100. I fail to see why in a rural area we need the Leader group in parallel with the county enterprise board. I would have thought the Leader group would be the appropriate body to carry out these functions. This alphabet soup of endless agencies for every conceivable economic and semi-economic purpose can be perceived to have at least one advantage: the job creation industry is thriving. There are so many thousands of people employed in creating jobs for others that the job creation industry is now bigger than many sectors of real industry.

Our priorities are topsy-turvy. Our fundamental thinking is woolly and unfocused. We are obsessed with more and more boards and agencies using public moneys and State subsidies to create artificial, make way jobs. This unreal, shadowy, quasi-economic activity takes precedence over real value adding wealth creating jobs and activities.

Our national statistics on unemployment and GNP are dubious. Most of us know that but we are expected to nod, wink and pat ourselves on the back for doing a great job. It should be remembered that when published in January 1992 the Culliton report received almost universal welcome and considerable acclaim both at home and abroad.

For someone who cares about Irish industrial development and the level of unemployment which has continued to grow since then, I find it distressing that we should turn our back on something we know is right. While I believe that the Culliton philosophy is right I am not so attached to it that I would be unwilling to try something else if it worked. However, since 1992 we have seen a steadfast refusal to implement the report and a deterioration rather than an improvement in our unemployment position. It is important to remember also that while most of the national debate about industrial policy, particularly on Bills such as this, tends to revolve around agencies and their powers and jurisdictions, the Culliton group saw agencies as being rather less important than the broader considerations of policy.

It is worth looking at some of the chapter headings in the Culliton report, such as "It is time to change important aspects in the national approach to industrial policy" and "It is time for the Government to take the hard political decisions needed for a decisive reform of the taxation system" and "The Irish educational and training system has serious gaps when it comes to technical and vocational education". Although lip service has been paid by successive Governments to these principles, none of them has been implemented. By far the most important is the question of personal taxation which, at our levels, is a huge disincentive to work and a penal imposition which acts as a severe discouragement to enterprise and economic activity. It drives up payroll and other costs and it damages competitiveness.

We are now no better off in terms of personal taxation than we were at the end of 1992. In some respects, it could be argued that we are worse off. More importantly, there is an obvious lack of commitment or political will to do anything meaningful about personal taxation. All calls for reform are declined by successive Ministers for Finance who continue to underwrite and perpetuate a system that is universally regarded as crazy.

This is where the real disappointment lies. It lies not just in the mess that has been made of the agencies, but in the unwillingness of successive Governments to take a global, comprehensive view of the need to co-ordinate policies for the purposes of industrial and business development and genuine employment creation. The departmental ethos and the jurisdictional jealousies with which we must contend are stifling us and are preventing progress. Culliton said: "It is the time for change, time to recognise that borrowing for short term gain has a huge price tag in terms of high taxation to pay the interest bill". That lesson has not been learned. We have resolutely refused to change over the past three years.

This year our public expenditure will increase by nearly 10 per cent. We have mucked around with a totally unsuitable and penal tax system and a fiscal regime that is unnecessarily negative in its effects. We have refused to insist on adequate infrastructure and competitive utilities. I repeat the message given, not for the first time, by Deputy Harney to this House earlier today when she spoke on the Estimates. She pointed out that, based on figures supplied by the Department of Finance, a married man with four children needs more than £15,000 per year before it is worth his while to give up the dole. In certain circumstances, the take home pay of such a man is actually greater if he earns £6,000 less.

With regard to the lack of competitive utilities, we protect State utilities at all costs even though we know that they are over-manned, inefficient and damaging to our national interests and our prospects of successful job creation. The interest of the utility and of its employers is always paramount; the national interest or the public need is secondary. With a list of such problems — which we have resolutely refused to confront let alone solve — a Bill such as this is of little importance or value and is no substitute for real action.

I am doubtful about the proposals to put the county enterprise boards on a statutory basis. The thrust of the Culliton report was to confine grant giving power. Under the arrangement proposed in section 10 these grant giving powers are hugely extended to a large number of additional agencies and there is almost no activity that they cannot assist. We badly need to try to kill the grant aid mentality with which this country is infected and afflicted. However, the proposals in this Bill will foster this mentality rather than diminish it. We could do away with the plethora of grants and other assistance that the State is forced to give to economic activity of nearly every kind if we had a sensible taxation system. We are caught in a vicious circle already because, in order to compensate for our penal levels of taxation, we must spend more and more public money which in turn requires more taxation to raise it. We must break that circle. Not alone does this Bill not break it, it strengthens it.

I am also doubtful about the power of investment proposed in section 6, where agencies are empowered to invest in funds rather than in specific companies. As this section is drafted, there can be no proper accountability for the moneys so invested. Up to now agencies had to account for each investment or grant they gave and it was possible to form a judgment on whether it was successful. I agree with Deputy O'Rourke's comments on the lack of accountability on the part of the Minister and the Department vis-á-vis this House. Under this Bill — if it is enacted as drafted — it will be possible for the Minister to come to the Dáil and say, in reply to questions, that he has no responsibility or he can have the questions disallowed on that basis. That is unsatisfactory.

I also agree with Deputy O'Rourke's attitude to the question of information. I have a high regard for the former Department of Industry and Commerce but I remind myself that it is the same Department in which a senior official commended, in writing, a junior official for confusing a Deputy and preventing him obtaining the facts. The wide powers to form subsidiaries and to operate through them should be carefully examined because of the unhappy experience the Department has had with one agency circumventing controls and limits by forming subsidiaries.

Several provisions in the Bill seek to rectify mistakes made in the 1993 Act. That Act was the result of a Bill rushed through this House just before the summer recess that year which was not properly examined or debated. Various points must be made on the detail of the Bill on Committee Stage and I will reserve those comments until then.

Overall, one must take the view that the Bill is of little value. It tinkers with a system which is fundamentally flawed. It makes permanent and statutory the proliferation and multiplication of agencies that is totally at variance with what was recommended. It locks us into a bureaucratic nightmare. It ignores the real problems and implies that unemployment can be solved by a combination of public spending and evergrowing bureaucracy. It adopts the philosophy that if one has a problem one sets up a board and splashes out large dollops of public money. That philosophy is fatally flawed. The approach to industrial development and job creation that is encapsulated in this Bill is, therefore, fatally flawed. By spreading public money everwhere, as this Bill envisages, for almost any purpose rather than fostering industrial clusters around niches of national competitive advantage we will perpetuate failure and an uncompetitive approach.

We should remember that, for the last quarter century, Northern Ireland was not effectively a potential base for normal industrial investment, except of a limited nature. It is now a competitor. It has many substantial advantages over us. It will erode our industrial base unless we make the necessary changes to prevent that. Personal taxation and lower costs are its principal advantages. We must remind ourselves once again of the patent truth of the statement in the Culliton report about tax reform: "In no other single area does the Government have at its disposal the tools to make as far-reaching and effective a reform to support an enterprise economy as in taxation".

Deputy O'Malley's analysis of the Bill is at variance with what is in it. He suggested that we have a fundamentally flawed system of support. The background to the establishment of Forbairt and the IDA was the Culliton report. I was not privy to the various altercations that resulted in the establishment of three bodies — Forfás, Forbairt and the IDA — but Forfás has not been a failure. I would have shared the Deputy's misgivings that it was not wise to establish three bodies when two were recommended. I would also have shared some of the other concerns about the structure. Forfás has brought analytic capacity to industrial policy which perhaps the Department should rightfully have had, but nonetheless there is ongoing creative policy thinking by Forfás. It is well led by the present chief executive officer and dynamic chairman and it contributes considerably to new thinking in our approach to industrial policy. I do not agree it is an unmitigated disaster and that we are on a huge spending spree that is contrary to the national interest.

It is very easy to lampoon county enterprise or area partnership initiatives and suggest they are a waste of money. However the Deputy's party as well as other parties have continuously lamented the extreme centralisation of our Administration and our unwillingness to devolve power to local areas where people may make decisions about their future. In partnership companies local unions, employers and the local community address problems such as long term unemployment and give people who are far from the large State agencies and the established financial sector a chance to respond to their economic challenges. Based on the experience of groups such as the North-side Partnership, they are of value.

I had the opportunity to visit the Deputy's city where I saw some of the work of the Limerick County Enterprise Board which identifies how Limerick can respond to the economic challenges facing it. It gave 23 fledgling businesses an opportunity to sell their wares to a much wider public. The development agencies also offered a one stop shop, for which people had appealed. A change of attitude to enterprise development is being nurtured through the local schools there and the enterprise board deserves an opportunity to prove itself. It is easy to dismiss local initiatives but many of them are adding value to their areas.

The Department is determined to evaluate closely the work of these bodies and ensure they provide value for taxpayer's money. We are committed to evaluating their performance. If the Deputy visits some of these boards and reads their plans, he will realise they are genuinely trying to assist their areas to respond to the strategic challenges facing them. Answers will never be found in the IDA or Forbairt alone, or in national agencies or Departments. We need to extend to local groups the opportunity to shape their own future. I will certainly give them the benefit of the doubt.

Under this Bill we are moving away from the idea of grant giving bodies who dole out money for feasibility or capital investment. We are providing that they be more flexible, that they consider soft supports such as giving advice, introduce initiatives such as the PLATO scheme to network training opportunities for small businesses and give loans instead of grants. Many of the Border counties who have had access to loan funding through the IFI have been extremely successful in getting businesses off the ground at a lower cost to the Exchequer. We are giving legal recognition to bodies that have been established for a considerable time and giving them powers to make them more effective in their work.

One may say that the other provisions in this Bill are amendments to measures introduced in haste in 1993. Nonetheless they are sensible. It is sensible that Forbairt and the IDA should have the right to buy and sell land and to hold shares and we should respond to the needs of SFADCo which is a successful agency. Even the Deputy, in his great thrust for rationalisation, would not suggest that body be abolished.

I agree with some of Deputy O'Rourke's comments about accountability. Changes have been made, but a distinction must be drawn between individual projects. To publish information on negotiations between the IDA or Forbairt and management about weaknesses in the company or recommendations about support or developments, to give away the IDA or Forbairt's negotiating hand in their approach to foreign companies would be treading on the commercial confidentiality of the company and on its competitiveness in attracting foreign industry. There are many important aspects that must be confidential, but on the other hand, there has been a tendency to exaggerate what is truly confidential.

The Deputy was critical that the IDA gives information only on grants it pays out rather than on prospective grants, but to do that would be to disclose its negotiating terms. If the company disclosed the claw-back clauses that will be applied it would be publishing its negotiating package, and it would be very difficult to go down that road. There are many ways of improving information dissemination and the Deputy made an interesting suggestion about providing information on companies that are increasing employment over target and I would have no difficulty with that. The IDA and Forbairt recognise that in terms of overall accounting they should provide that information. The net cost of a job is based on sustained employment. Companies produce net figures for employment and no longer publish job approvals as the basis of their targets.

Job approval numbers are not now published, instead each year the target for first time jobs on the ground is published. The net change in employment figures is also published. It provides on an aggregate basis the type of information the Deputy seeks. The Deputy is seeking similar information on the 6,000 Forbairt and the 1,000 IDA companies. Clearly, the problem arising from that request is providing a data bank on 7,000 companies each year. It would have to be considered whether that is feasible but perhaps in the era of the Internet it is simpler than we might have thought.

Deputies raised the question of the accountability of the IDA, Forbairt and such agencies to Oireachtas committees. My Department is certainly not restraining the Dáil from deciding that committees should have the right to assess the work of the IDA and Forbairt. I certainly would have no misgivings about having such agencies answerable to Oireachtas committees if the Committee on Procedure and Privileges or the House decides that is the way to proceed. I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts some years ago when the IDA, as it then was, appeared before it and that was clearly done with the support of the Department.

The Deputy raised the question of annual industrial reviews. There is merit in providing annual information as the IDA does, but to undertake a serious review of policy each year runs the risk of tilting the balance between review and assessment and implementation too far in the direction of bureaucratic information gathering instead of getting on with a job. A balance has to be struck. I think the time would be absorbed in meeting the target of a review rather than in developing and applying policies. There will be differences of opinion. It is going too far to have annual reviews and the three-year review strikes the right balance.

The Deputy raised concerns about a hidden agenda to disband Forfás. There is no such hidden agenda but we are clarifying its role. It was never intended that Forfás would be the exclusive holder of preference shareholding that Forbairt or the IDA might issue. Forfás will concentrate on its intended role of focusing on policy development and coordinating the bodies that comprise it such as FÁS and An Bord Tráchtála.

Deputies O'Rourke and O'Malley raised the issue of subsidiaries and clearly these will have to be closely scrutinised. I agree that we should not be spawning subsidiaries at a great rate but there are situations where subsidiaries might be justified. In the case of technical tasks such as metrology or some such task assigned to Forbairt which is not in its mainstream interface with companies there might be a justifiable reason for saying they could be handled by a subsidiary.

A sensible proposal is the development of seed and venture funds as a way in which Forbairt could develop and in this Bill we are moving away from simple grant aid to individual companies to the idea that Forbairt would enter into joint ventures with the financial institutions to provide seed or venture funds. That would be a good development and I look forward to seeing the type of proposal that will come forward. Already there is a number of such initiatives under way, one in relation to the softwear industry which is commanding considerable support. It has the capacity to ensure that good softwear ideas coming from young talented people at university are developed in Ireland with Irish seed capital instead of running the risk of successfully developing them only if there is a foreign multinational partner willing to develop them further overseas. There are equity gaps in these types of funds and there is a need to fill the equity gap between the gilt edge companies that can gain easy access to equity and smaller companies that find it harder to access funds.

I have dealt with the broad thrust of Deputies' contributions and I look forward to the Committee Stage debate when we can deal with the Bill in more detail.

It has been indicated that the committee intends to sit on 19 July 1995.

Question put and agreed to.
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