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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 Oct 1995

Vol. 457 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Development of Semi-State Sector.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann regrets the failure of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications to implement a coherent strategy for the semi-State sector under his control and calls on the Minister to bring forward a comprehensive plan for the strategic development of those companies over the next five years.

The semi-State sector has dominated the news for the past week but unfortunately for all the wrong reasons. Instead of a reasoned debate on the future role of State owned companies, a debate that is urgently needed, we have heard a series of wild allegations by the Minister, Deputy Lowry, and increasingly frantic efforts on his behalf to stand them up. Teams of private accountants have been hired at enormous public expense to trawl through the State companies in search of evidence to support the Minister's allegations. Despite their best efforts and the inordinate amount of Civil Service and semi-State officials' time that went into this unprecedented search, very little has been found. Yet the Minister continues to dig, and the more he digs the deeper in trouble he finds himself. I can do no more at this stage than commend to the Minister the advice of the former British Chancellor, Denis Healey, who once said: "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging". It is time for the Minister to stop digging and to get on with the job he is paid to do.

At times this whole episode has smacked of farce rather than serious politics. It is surely unprecedented for a Cabinet Minister to come into this House and make a serious allegation against a named individual on a Tuesday, only to come back on the following Thursday and withdraw it completely. The process by which the Minister's speech of Tuesday last was drafted gives me serious grounds for concern. It now transpires that the Minister, Deputy Lowry, had to submit his speech in draft form to the Tánaiste's office to have it vetted by the so-called programme manager in that office. It seems the Minister could not be let out on his own.

Was that procedure used when Deputy Molloy was in Government?

It is the Tánaiste and his hired handlers who are now running Government policy in the semi-State area, not Minister Lowry. It must surely be humiliating for all those in Fine Gael to have Labour Party ideologues dictating policy, even in Departments nominally controlled by Fine Gael Ministers. I would be very interested to know if Deputy Lowry is the only Minister to have been subjected to this kind of humiliation or does every member of the Cabinet now have to submit their Dáil scripts to the Tánaiste's programme manager for ideological cleansing?

As I said in this House last week, the Minister will find it very difficult to reestablish his credibility in the eyes of the semi-State managers. His authority has been substantially eroded and the Socialists and other vested interests in semi-State companies are now happy that it is their friends in the Labour Party who are calling the shots. Unfortunately the Minister's most serious allegations that a privileged few operated a cosy cartel on contracts with the semi-State companies and their alleged initiation of private eye surveillance on him in retaliation still remain in the public domain, unproven.

Four aspects of the Minister's statements in the House last week and subsequent attempted justification in the media raise questions which the Minister should address in his reply. First, is it true that the property section of CIE forwarded its file on the Horgan's Quay sale to the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications for approval in January this year? Is it true that all details of the Horgan's Quay arrangements were carefully examined in that Department over a period of time and approved by the Department well before the date of 21 June mentioned by the Minister in the Dáil and well before he removed Mr. O'Leary from office on 17 April? Second, the production of a Waldorf Hotel bill with Mr. D. O'Leary's name hand written on it was an obvious fraud. Who decided to issue this forged document to the media and who wrote Mr. D. O'Leary's name on it? Third, why did the Minister give Dáil Éireann two differing reasons for his decision to seek the removal of Mr. O'Leary as chairman of CIE? Fourth, who instructed the three CIE officials to present themselves for interview by RTE's Charlie Bird to answer prearranged and pre-rehearsed questions?

The Minister must realise that several major question marks hang over his performance here last week and his allegations made throughout the summer recess. The Progressive Democrats hold no brief for any of the parties mentioned other than an interest in the truth and justice. The Minister knows he would have the full support of the Progressive Democrats if he could substantiate his story. He has failed to do that and we can only wonder at his motives.

I do not intend to waste any more of the time available to me this evening rehashing the sterile battles of the Minister's phoney war. Instead I want to refer to a serious issue, the development and implementation of a coherent policy in relation to the strategic management of the semi-State companies and the sectors in which they operate. Deputy Lowry is Minister with responsibility for most of the semi-State companies but there seems little chance of any such policy emerging from his Department during the remainder of his tenure of office, however long the Tánaiste is willing to tolerate him in that position.

Does the Deputy stand over CIE's annual losses of £90 million?

My aim tonight is to be positive and constructive and to put forward clear and workable solutions to some of the many problems confronting our semi-State sector. One does not have to look far to apppreciate the scale of those problems. A sum of £5 million had to be paid to foreign consultants so that ESB management could find out that it was overmanned to the tune of 2,000 people; that company's own consultancy division sells advice to clients around the world. Recently a fierce battle for a cigarette distribution contract was fought out by two bitter rivals, CIE's road haulage division and the SDS subsidiary of An Post, two of the State backed thoroughbreds in the Minister's stable. The artificially low prices quoted by the State monopolies could not be matched by any of the taxpaying private firms that financed them. It makes you wonder about the radio advertisement for "Cowboy Carriers". If the State were to start running two below-cost operators in the retail refrigeration business it would be a poor day for the Minister.

Two more of his charges, Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann, are members of the same CIE family but that does not stop them competing head-on with the bus company running non-stop services between Dublin and Limerick, Cork and Waterford. No fewer than four of his companies, at the last count, were bidding to get into competition with a fifth, Telecom Éireann, for the country's second mobile phone licence. It is apparent to everybody that we cannot carry on like this. It is vitally important that we get our house in order in terms of management of the semi-State sector.

The Deputy should give the Minister a chance to get his house in order.

Deputy Sheehan will desist from interrupting.

I wish to deal in detail with four areas in the semi-State sector, telecommunications, energy, aviation and the activities of CIE. It is with CIE, the company which finds itself at the eye of the current political storm. I would like to start.

It is losing £90 million per annum.

The Deputy should not insist on disobeying the Chair.

CIE as an organisation can be said to have outlived its usefulness. It may have made sense to create such an entity nearly 50 years ago but today there is no valid reason that a Dublin based State company should exercise centralised control over every aspect of public transport. A new approach is needed. I am advocating the dismantling and dissolution of the CIE holding company as an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. For bus services I am in favour of the full devolution of responsibility to local authorities, as happens in other countries. Centralised control of all the bus services in the country by a Dublin based bureaucracy makes neither economic nor administrative sense. Local bus services should be locally controlled. This does not mean that every county council must splash out millions of pounds buying bus fleets. Instead each council would act as the franchising authority for bus services in its area. The actual services would be delivered by either public or private operators, whichever was the most efficient. Franchises would be awarded by a system of open, competitive tendering which would take account of criteria such as fare structures and the frequency and quality of service.

If anyone doubts that centralised control leaves local gaps they should look at the position in north Kildare. For instance, Leixlip and Naas are now two of the largest towns in the country, with a combined population of about 25,000. They are only half an hour apart by road, yet there is no proper bus service between them. Does anybody believe that such gaps would be allowed to exist under a system of local control? One might also ask why, since the town of Enniskillen in the North with a population of 10,000, has half a dozen commuter services per day linking it with surrounding towns and villages, Carlow in the south, with a population of 14,000, has none.

CIÉ and Bus Éireann have been neglecting local bus services for years. Instead they have concentrated their energy and money on fighting off private competition on long distance express services. I have reason to fear that the onslaught on private operators who pioneered many of these routes when CIÉ had no interest in them has involved predatory pricing. I recall a Bus Éireann official saying on a radio interview some years ago that private bus operators offering a Galway-Dublin bus service of £6 could only do so if operating at a loss yet Bus Éireann reduced its fares to these levels shortly afterwards — obviously at a loss if this official was to be believed. It is interesting to note that return fares on the Dublin-Wicklow route on which Bus Éireann has no competition can be over 9p per mile whereas fares on the Dublin-Wexford route where there is private competition are as low as half that.

The railway system soaks up approximately £95 million of taxpayers' money each year. It is a sobering thought that every worker in the country effectively contributes about £2 per week to keep the trains running — even though most might never actually use them. The situation is particularly galling for those living in Kilmallock, County Limerick, Monasterevan, County Kildare, Dunleer, County Louth or the Fairview-North Strand area of County Dublin. These people contribute their taxes towards the rail subsidy but can only stand back in amazement as the train whizzes through their town without doing them the courtesy of stopping.

What about south-west Cork where there is no service?

Surely a more market oriented approach on the part of railway management would see the sense of opening stations in locations such as these at minimal extra cost. It seems strange also that whereas Dublin is a vibrant European capital it does not go to bed at 11.20 p.m. but the DART does. Would a more customer focused approach not involve the provision of late night services?

Another option that needs to be looked at is franchising, which I mentioned earlier in relation to bus services. Limerick and Galway are the third and fourth largest cities and there is a railway link between them but there is no passenger service. Passenger services on the line were abandoned by CIE some 25 years ago as being hopelessly uneconomic, yet this 70 miles stretch of track links three major urban centres and three counties with a combined population of 400,000. It may well be that CIE's high operating costs make it uneconomic to run a service on this route but that does not mean that a private operator might not be able to provide a no frills "Ryanair" type service on the route on a franchise basis. A single railcar would be sufficient to operate four return trips per day between Limerick and Galway.

Franchising would also be an attractive option on other lines currently without any passenger service, such as Galway-Sligo, and might even be used to revivify lines which have been virtually abandoned, such as Cork-Midleton-Youghal. In the longer term franchising could provide an alternative to line closures. Low traffic routes could be offered to franchise operators if the cash strapped State company felt that after paying for foreign trips by its top brass it no longer had the resources to operate them.

The level of service offered by Iarnrod Éireann on the Waterford-Limerick route is so abysmal as to be utterly useless to any member of the public wishing to travel between these two major urban centres. With several major towns on this line, such as Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel and Tipperary, the relatively short stretch of line has a catchment area of up to 250,000 people. I have no doubt that a private operator could surely do better than the minimalist service being provided by the State monopoly.

I am not in favour of creating the kind of bureaucratic nightmare that rail privatisation in Britain is turning into.

Hear, hear.

However, I believe that if services can be provided on a cost effective basis where none exists, then the least we should do is facilitate that process. Clearly some service has to be better than no service.

A franchising system would only be possible if the State split what is now Iarnrod Éireann into separate train and railway companies with a large part of the total subsidy being paid to the latter to maintain the infrastructure. This is likely to happen anyway as an accounting exercise designed to make the train operating company look profitable. The Government plans to make some £500 million available to CIE during the next few years to fund a whole array of railway projects. I am concerned that more evaluation has not been carried out on some of these projects. Everybody would like to see faster train services but how many millions should we pay to knock 15 minutes off the Dublin-Belfast trip for instance? We should also ask ourselves would we go ahead with these projects if free money from Brussels was not available. If these projects are uneconomic with our money they are also uneconomic with somebody else's money.

The controversy in which the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry, has become embroiled centres on the way in which CIE manages its property portfolio. This problem might never have arisen if the company had adopted a more businesslike approach to the management of its property estate. The company is sitting on under-utilised land all over the country. Does anybody believe that a huge commercial site in a prime location, Donnybrook, Dublin 4, could not be put to better use than a bus garage? Instead of pursuing mobile phone licences, CIE management should immediately set about the task of realising cash for their unwanted and under-utilised property assets.

The suggestions I have made in both the bus and rail areas are designed to improve and increase the level of service available to the public without additional cost to the taxpayer. As such they should be capable of winning a broad degree of support right across this House. We must adopt innovative and imaginative measures in the management of our public transport system. It seems that neither CIE management nor the Minister is capable of doing this.

The importance of modern telecommunications networks for industrial development cannot be over-emphasised. It is reckoned that the contribution of telecommunications to gross domestic product in the European Union will double from 3 per cent to 6 per cent during the next ten years. This is an area where technology is moving fast. The agenda is set not by Government but by hi-tech corporations developing even more advanced communications systems. What we are witnessing in effect is a rolling revolution where what is modern today is obsolete tomorrow.

Old style State monopolies have little role to play in this new world. Around the world Governments are exiting from the telecommunications business as owners and operators. Privatisation is the order of the day. Instead they are taking on the role of facilitators, opening up their markets to competition and ensuring that proper regulatory systems are in place to cope with the technological explosion that is occurring.

The investment requirements of the telecommunications industry are heavy. There can be no question of the taxpayer being asked to fund the massive developments that will be needed in Ireland. Burdened with debts of over £860 million, Telecom Éireann urgently needs access to external sources of capital. I believe that the arguments in favour of privatisation are compelling and if the company's management needs to be beefed up to prepare it for privatisation then so be it. A stock market quotation would provide the company with the means of financing its long-term expansion without cost to the taxpayer. As I said in this House last week, I am not convinced of the need for a strategic partner. My fear is that a foreign company would buy effective control of Telecom Éireann on the cheap before the company has been put on a sound commercial footing.

Whatever happens Telecom Éireann needs to get its own house in order. A former chairman of the company recently was quoted as saying that its charges were wildly excessive and a burden on the Irish economy. He went on to add that the company was famous among industry watchers for its high prices and noteworthy for its inefficiency. The company may be overmanned by as many as 5,500. In terms of lines per employee, Telecom Éireann is only half as efficient as New Zealand telecommunications and only half as profitable. Major progress on cost reductions and efficiency improvement will have to be made before any involvement by a strategic equity partner is considered.

I have mentioned the situation regarding the new mobile phone licence. With Telecom Éireann facing possible competition from another semi-State company we are, as I said last week, headed for a quite ludicrous situation. At a time when other countries are privatising their phone companies — Spain being the most recent example — we could soon have a situation in Ireland where the Government is running not one but two telecommunications networks.

I am not as well versed in the dogma of socialist economics as some of the people sitting on the Government benches claim to be, but I think even the central planners of the old Soviet regime never went quite as far as creating two competing State monopolies, if it is possible to use such a term. Perhaps they did for all I know. We need a clear statement of policy for Irish telecommunications. The Government's strategy should be to open up the Irish market to competition to the widest possible extent and to put in place the regulatory framework needed to make that competition work. In terms of our future job creation potential we must bear in mind that we live side by side with the country which has perhaps the most liberalised and competitive telecommunications market in Europe, namely, the United Kingdom. Unless we here embrace the philosophy of competition, we will be placing ourselves at a major disadvantage in terms of our ability to attract job creating foreign investment into this country.

I wish to turn to the electricity and energy market. This is another area in which we should strive to create competition. Five years ago my colleague, Deputy O'Malley, established the Culliton review group, and that group stressed the importance of a coherent energy policy in our overall industrial development effort. That group's work was welcomed by the main political parties. In its report the group highlighted the need for adequate energy provision at competitive prices. It pointed disapprovingly to the monopolistic practices of the State-owned energy companies which dominate the sector and recommended that opportunities to increase the degree of competition and energy supply should be promoted. Four years on I am not sure much heed has been paid to what Culliton said about competition, yet competition is essential if we are to ensure that both private and industrial consumers get their supplies at the best possible price.

We are being directed by the European Union to introduce competition in our electricity market, but the Minister's efforts in this regard have not been very impressive. His main contribution to date has been the announcement that he would set up a power procurer to act as a central buyer of electricity for the national grid in a competitive market. I have no problem with that. An independent power procurer is an essential prerequisite for any arrangements where different generators are contributing to the national grid. However, that is not quite what the Minister is proposing. He wants the power procurer to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the ESB. For the system to work it is patently obvious that the power procurer must be entirely independent of the generating companies and must be in a position to operate a transparent pricing policy. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a farce. For instance, how could a power procurer, as an employee of the ESB, be expected to act fairly in his dealings with private electricity generators vis-à-vis his own employer? The system, as proposed by the Minister is unworkable. It is a cop out, merely a device for getting around the European Union's competition guidelines, and I would not be surprised if the Brussels authorities rejected this formula out of hand.

Under the Minister's proposals the ESB would effectively be buying electricity from itself. It is difficult to see how such a move could do anything to introduce an element of competition into a sector where it is badly needed. If we are serious about introducing competition into the electricity market, we must take a different approach. The basic objective should be to comply not just with the letter but with the spirit of European Union liberalisation regulations. In short, we must aim for competition in both the generation and the supply of electricity.

Any attempt to create a competitive electricity market must, of necessity, involve the splitting of the ESB into two companies, one to handle the generation, the other to manage the national grid and handle transmission and distribution. This should not be a very difficult task to accomplish in administrative and operational terms as the ESB is already divided into separate business units.

A similar demerger was carried out in New Zealand a couple of years ago. Competitive tendering for the construction of new power plants would bring new generators into the industry here. It will be several years before these have any impact on the market, however, given the long lead-in times involved in the construction of such stations. Construction and operation of the proposed peat-powered plant in the east midlands will be open to outside bidders, but the ESB will also be able to pitch for the contract. In any event, the plant will account for less than 3 per cent of national generating capacity and will not be strategically significant in national terms.

A great opportunity to introduce real competition in generation much more quickly has been lost however. The decision that was made to allow the ESB to proceed with phase one of the combined cycle plant at Poolbeg in Dublin means that the board will be the automatic choice to complete the final two phases of the project on the same site. When fully commissioned the new Poolbeg complex will account for about 10 per cent of total generating capacity which is very significant in terms of the national market. The decision to allow the ESB to go ahead with phase one was tantamount to ruling out competition for several years to come. The ESB would have an obvious cost advantage in building phase two and three over any outside generator trying to put the same capacity on a greenfield site.

Other initiatives offer more immediate prospects for the introduction of some degree of competition. Management of individual ESB power stations could be put up for public tender and contracted out to external bidders if they were capable of running them more efficiently than the State company. An important source of electricity supply could be combined heat and power plants attached to major industrial installations. There are a number of large sites which could be in a position to contribute electricity to the system once the market was liberalised.

The reopening of the interconnector with Northern Ireland may not make much of a difference in the short-term as the volume of power traded is likely to be small. I wonder if this piece of equipment should now be fitted with some kind of an ideological filter to keep the Labour Party happy, given that all of Northern Ireland's electricity is generated by privatised stations. In the longer term, however, an upgraded interconnector with Northern Ireland could be the link through which this country is finally joined to the European grid. This depends on the completion of the interconnector between Northern Ireland and Scotland, a project which has run into considerable environmental opposition in the Galloway region of Scotland. The obvious alternative is the construction of an interconnector between Dublin and the Welsh coast, but this would take much time and money to construct.

Whatever the source of the electricity, it is important that major industrial users have direct third party access to it. Thus, if a major industrial plant is generating electricity via combined heat and power technology, other industries should be able to buy directly rather than go through any kind of centralised power procurement agency.

Implementing the TPA principle will be crucial to ensuring that there is competition not just in generation but in supply also. In a liberalised market power generation will clearly no longer be a monopoly. It will be capital intensive and commercially active, like the cement manufacturing and steel making industries. As such, the rationale for retaining it in State ownership will disappear. Otherwise the State will run into conflict with itself in its role as independent regulator and policy maker for the industry on one hand and as owner of a generating company on the other. The kind of tension to which this conflict necessarily gives rise is already becoming apparent in the Government's deteriorating relationship with the ESB, because one cannot be the referee and play the ball at the same time. It follows that ultimate privatisation of the ESB generating arm will have to be considered. There is nothing unusual about this in today's world — the Hungarian Government, which is probably closer to left wing orthodoxy than anyone in this country, is currently selling off its whole electricity industry. The proceeds could be split, helping to defray both the ESB's massive debts, and make some impact on our £30 billion national debt.

It may also be possible to privatise part of the generating network now, though the sheer scale and efficiency at Moneypoint make this problematic. The Moneypoint generating station accounts for 41 per cent of all the electricity generated here. Whoever got hold of it would be in an extremely powerful position relative to other suppliers. The ESB itself is not unfavourably disposed towards competition in the generating of electricity — it is the operator and part-owner of the Corby power station in Northamptonshire in England. It is somewhat ironic that an Irish-State-owned monopoly should be among the pioneers of a Thatcherite experiment in free market economies in the energy field.

Incidentally, before I leave electricity and the ESB, I am sure the House is aware that the Minister has linked the ESB price increase application directly to the successful completion of the cost and competitiveness review. All the reports on the CCR indicate that little, if any, progress has been made and it is now most unlikely this review will conclude by the set date of 31 October. In the event of failure to meet the October deadline, it is important that the Minister outline in his statement to the House the action he proposes taking.

I would like to refer briefly to natural gas supply. Natural gas is a major source of primary energy here, accounting for about 20 per cent of the total. As a clean and environmentally acceptable fuel it will play an increasing role in our energy policy in the years ahead. It is important that Bord Gáis, as a State monopoly, operates a transparent pricing policy rather than merely publishing an indicative list of tariffs, as it does at present. With the interconnector with Britain coming on stream next year, it is vital that large customers have direct third party access to gas from the interconnector. While the Government accepted the recommendations of the Culliton review group to this effect, there have been recent noises from the Labour Party that this may not be followed through. Third party access is as vital a policy imperative in natural gas as it is in electricity. We will not have a competitive market in gas without it.

Before leaving the energy sector, I want to ask one question. The Government and its predecessor spent a great deal of time talking about cross-Border bodies in the context of the peace process. Has consideration been given to the creation of a single electricity market on this island? At present Ireland is at home to two of the smallest and most isolated electricity systems in Europe and suffers huge diseconomies as a result. While I do not underestimate the legal and political problems the creation of an integrated single island electricity market would involve, the savings that would accrue would be considerable. It would deliver clear economic benefits to both parts of the island and would be of much greater practical importance than the inconsequential quangos that are more likely to emerge under the guise of cross-Border institutions.

Aer Rianta was originally established to manage the country's international airports. As a monopoly operator in an expanding market this has proved to be a lucrative franchise in recent years. Last year the company made pre-tax profits of £31 million and generated trading margins of 17 per cent, a figure to which few businesses in the private sector could aspire. Aer Rianta invest those monopoly profits in building up a considerable business empire. For a company whose main profit base is its Irish airport monopoly, the company is developing a rather exotic corporate profile.

Through its wholly owned subsidiary, Aer Rianta, the Government provides catering services at Stanstead and Southampton Airports in Britain, runs airport shops in several locations in the former Soviet Union, in Bahrain and Karachi and will soon operate a duty free store in downtown Bangkok. Not only that, if the company's further plans are realised, it will shortly display its retailing expertise to the people of Hong Kong and China. Given the present pace of economic reform in China, our Government may be the only Government running shops in that country.

Last month Aer Rianta announced its intention to purchase a minority stake in Birmingham International, the fifth largest airport in Britain and the company, though the Great Southern chain, is one of our largest hotel operators. The more deeply Aer Rianta becomes involved in extraneous ventures, the less money it can afford to pay the Exchequer in dividends. Last year the company paid the Government £10.6 million, 38 per cent of its after-tax profits, and, apparently, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications has agreed to peg the dividend contribution at this level for the rest of the decade. This effectively gives the company the freedom to indulge itself by investing its monopoly profits in all manner of corporate expansion in the next five years. For example, Aer Rianta is well advanced with plans to construct a 145 bedroom hotel at Dublin Airport, surely not good news for the hoteliers in the city who pay tax on their profits at 38 per cent. It also plans to invest £170 million in upgrading Dublin Airport and, early in the next century, a further £200 million in building a second terminal at the airport.

What is wrong with that?

It is time for the company to pause for breath. Aer Rianta is clearly an organisation with a great deal of entrepreneurial flair.

And rightly so.

Entrepreneurs are essentially risk takers. Irish taxpayers should not be asked to fund risk based investments in airports in Britain or superstores in Thailand. If Aer Rianta wants to develop as an aggressive player in the international retail and airport services market, I wish it luck, but not at the expense of Irish taxpayers.

It is not costing the taxpayer anything.

If it wishes to pursue that route to corporate stardom if should do so as a private company away from the comforting embrace of the State. In the meantime, the company should examine its pricing policies, particularly at Dublin Airport, as a matter of urgency.

The Deputy wants it both ways.

There has been a phenomenal growth in passenger numbers at the airport in the last decade with no reduction in charges. Aer Rianta's charges at Dublin Airport are among the highest in Europe.

The airport charge at Dublin can account for up to £9 of a return fare to the United Kingdom, which can be as low as £49.

The State monopoly is effectively imposing a tax on incoming tourists through the medium of high charges. While this continues we are not likely to see the extension to continental Europe of the type of low cost air services that revolutionised travel between Ireland and Britain in recent years.

If the Deputy had his way we would still be flying into Shannon instead of Dublin.

Dr. Tony Ryan recently put forward an attractive proposal to build a new airport at west Dublin at virtually no cost to the State. It is estimated that it could create up to 10,000 additional jobs in an area badly in need of them.

If this project goes ahead it would obviate the need for between £200 million and £300 million of State financed expenditure at Dublin Airport.

That is absolute rubbish.

The Ryanair proposal should be warmly welcomed by the Government and given every encouragement to proceed.

Will the Deputy put up the money?

Belfast, just 100 miles north of here, has two airports, both owned and managed by the private sector. Should Dublin not follow the example of Belfast, withdraw from a direct ownership role and concentrate instead on fostering competition and the provision of cost effective services at no expense to the taxpayer?

It would be nice to think that in five years time Dublin would also have two thriving and successful private sector airports. Collinstown, to the north, would be owned by a privatised Aer Rianta while Baldonnel, to the south, would be owned by a group of private investors. With both airports competing vigorously, access to Ireland would become cheaper and our tourists industry would receive a major boost as a result. I respectfully suggest it is time the Minister re-examined his Department's policy on airports.

We need a clear and coherent policy for the governance of our semi-State companies; there appears to be no policy at present. Nudged along by directives from Brussels we make grudging concessions in the direction of greater competition for key services, such as electricity and telecommunications.

I thought the Deputy proposed getting rid of them all.

For the most part, however, we try to keep competition at bay. We seek to protect State companies as far as possible from the realities of the market-place. We allow them pass on the costs of their over-manning and inefficiency to Irish consumers and in the case of industrial consumers this amounts to an effective tax on exports.

We have been reluctant to impose a customer service ethos on our State companies. When we walk into our local hamburger shop we see a quality certificate hanging on the wall. Surely taxpayers and consumers are entitled to no less from their State services but few State companies have attained recognised quality standards, such as the Q mark or ISO9002 — Aer Rianta being an honourable exception. State companies under the Minister's control are lumbered with debts of £2.3 billion, a massive burden for any group of companies to carry and debt service charges are effectively being recouped from the consumers. It is essential that such firms are given an opportunity to properly capitalise.

The traditional approach has been the old reliable once-off State equity injection, costing the taxpayer approximately £1 million per annum. We can no longer finance major State companies in this way. They must have independent access to external sources of equity capital and this inevitably leads to the subject of privatisation, a successful policy in the Irish context. The Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Coalition, of which I was a member, privatised two companies — Greencore and Irish Life. Both privatisations were successful, well received by the public and the investment community and the two companies and their workforces prospered as a result. Since then, however, the political pendulum has swung in a different direction.

The Labour Party is opposed to privatisation, although Minister Quinn recently cashed in his remaining Irish Life chips and sold Irish Steel for £1. Despite this the Labour Party remains antagonistic to the concept of privatisation but at least, like the Progressive Democrats, people know where it stands. With Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, however, it is a case of "whatever you're having yourself" with regard to major policy issues.

Ten years ago, around the time my party was founded, privatisation was a radical policy option most notably associated in the public mind with Mrs. Thatcher. Ten years later the world is a changed placed and privatisation is common place across the political spectrum. It is no longer a matter of ideology but one of practicality. It is remarkable that some of the former Communist countries of eastern Europe will complete the privatisation of their public utilities before the Conservative Government in Britain.

Just over ten years ago a new Government came into power in New Zealand and initiated one of the most comprehensive privatisation programmes in the Western world. Within six years that Government disposed of State interests in steel, petroleum, finance, banking, shipping, aviation, insurance, hotels, gas, telecommunications, forestry, railways and other assets. This "everythingmust-go" sale realised NZ$13 billion. It enabled the Government in New Zealand to stabilise its country's national debt and reduce the top rate of personal taxation from 66 per cent to 33 per cent. That is the road we should go.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann supports the comprehensive strategies for the future of the semi-State sector as outlined in A Government of Renewal— strongly endorses the role of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications in implementing these strategies in the commercial State companies under his aegis; and notes the successful actions taken to date in implementing these strategies and the positive response of the State companies.”

Has the Minister checked this with the worker directors in CIE?

Badly, I believe.

In the original motion before this House, a picture is painted of ten major commercial State companies drifting rudderless and out of control in a sea of chaos. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can assure the House that I and this Government have a comprehensive strategy in place for the ten commercial State companies operating under my aegis. This strategy is being implemented in a coherent and consistent manner.

Did the Tánaiste and Democratic Left vet this speech?

This is clear from my general approach, from the statements I have made and, most importantly, from the actions I have taken and which I will continue to take.

We are going to have more of it.

I wish to make it crystal clear that our State companies cannot only compete with the best practices in public limited companies but in many cases they can compete at world class level. The attainment of such a high standard can only be done through the joint participation of the unions, management and boards, a process which I have and will continue to facilitate in the future.

How can the Minister say that this evening?

There will be no interruptions, Deputy.

This strategy is designed to ensure that the commercial State companies can meet the imminent and unavoidable competitive challenges, are a motor for growth in the economy as envisaged by the Culliton report, provide quality services at the lowest price, are vibrant, growing and profitable and provide good careers and sustainable jobs for those who work in them. I believe that the commercial State sector is of crucial importance to the future wellbeing of this country both from an economic and social point of view. The health of the economy and the cohesiveness of the country's social fabric depend crucially on how these companies perform. The only long-term sustainable future for the commercial State companies is that they learn to adapt to the changing environment in which they will increasingly find themselves and that they take effective action so as to position themselves correctly in the marketplace.

If the services provided by the State companies are competitively priced, then the Irish economy as a whole will be more competitive. If, on the other hand, they are not competitively priced, then it will be difficult for the economy as a whole to compete. A semi-State sector that is state of the art in terms of the range and quality of the services it offers and delivers will enhance the ability of the entire economy to be competitive. The strategy I am implementing has five main strands: competitiveness, a focus on customers' real needs, measure of performance, attention to long-term business strategy — not short-term tactics — and effective management of change.

And surveillance.

Many of our competitive State companies were set up in a different era from that of today. For those companies that did not have to face direct competition in the past, the arrival of competition poses a major challenge to adapt to this new environment. However, fundamental changes are now taking place which will affect these companies and it is my policy, therefore, to facilitate this necessary adaptation in the sectors for which I am responsible.

Competition can be the key to lower prices. Without competition, lower prices and, equally importantly, better services are often no more than a pious aspiration. With competition and appropriate regulation, the price mechanism at once comes into play and the customer benefits. With one of the most open economies in the world we simply cannot afford that goods and services are provided at anything other than fully competitive prices.

The State companies are at different stages of adaptation to competition. Let me give the House some examples. The painful consequences of a failure to sustain competitive cost structures have been learned in Aer Lingus. As a result of a partnership approach between unions, management and the board, Aer Lingus is now successfully emerging from the worst crisis in its history. Moreover, TEAM Aer Lingus now has a place in a viable restructuring and development plan covering the period to the year 2000. This plan is based on making TEAM competitive and therefore viable and profitable.

In the case of Telecom Éireann, increasing competition in the provision of international voice services, particularly in the business sector, has resulted in a significant and progressive reduction in international phone costs. This has not been bad news for Telecome Éireann as the market is growing much more rapidly in response to price stimulation. A world class competitor to Telecom Éireann in the mobile phone sector will be operational from next year, thereby stimulating Telecom Éireann to accelerate its own competitive drive. This in turn will greatly benefit the end consumer as mobile phone costs will be dramatically reduced. It will also assist Telecom Éireann as the market for mobile phones expands.

The tripartite approach of the cost competitive review of the ESB offers immense opportunities to address the issues of competitiveness and required change in a partnership involving the unions, management and my Department. I sincerely hope these opportunities will be grasped in such a way that will be best for the economy, individual and business consumers and for the successful future of the ESB and its staff.

A fundamental review of An Post, which the new chairman has carried out in recent months at my request, is now being finalised by the board of An Post. This will facilitate the company's development into a dynamic organisation focussing on the needs of its four constituents: the public, business and industry, staff and the Government.

And rural post offices.

The £120 million equity injection which the Government has approved for Bord na Móna will fundamentally alter the nature of the company and will provide it with a strong balance sheet so that it can prosper and expand. The Irish National Petroleum Company is well under way in its preparation to become a fully commercially viable company in two years' time. Earlier this year, I appointed a new executive chairman to CIE.

The Minister appointed him. What about the board?

How is the new chairman doing?

The Minister, without interruption.

At my request, he has put in place a new senior management team. They are already hard at work to revitalise the company and prepare it to meet the strategic challenges I have already mentioned.

The aim of the second strand of my strategy is to ensure that the commercial State companies have a customer driven ethos. Being customer focused goes hand in hand with competitiveness and is ultimately the foundation for business success. With this in mind, I am working to ensure that all these companies become fully responsive to the changing needs of customers. What passed as acceptable service ten years ago may be no longer acceptable today.

Does that go for surveillance

For instance, in the area of telecommunications, customers demand an ever increasing range of services, not least to keep abreast of the facilities their competitors enjoy. Our telephone services must compete not only on price and quality but also on the range of services on offer and I have recently set a formal target to achieve this objective. I want Ireland to be firmly positioned in the top quartile of the OECD countries on price, quality and the range of services on offer. My strategy and policy in this area are geared towards achieving that goal. This is based on securing a strategic alliance partner to complement Telecom Éireann's own efforts.

The commercial State companies must, in the future, be run on the basis of customers' real needs. If they fail in this respect, they have no future.

Does that apply to the Minister himself?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister is entitled to be allowed continue without interruption.

The customer can and will go elsewhere if these companies cannot or do not respond to his or her requirements.

The third strand of my strategy concerns measuring performance and acting upon those findings. As a first stage, the individual State companies need detailed information on their cost bases. This sounds very elementary but many of our companies have traditionally lacked sufficiently detailed information on their cost structures. This issue has already been addressed comprehensively in the ESB, Aer Lingus, Telecom Éireann and the INPC. This must be followed by comprehensive benchmarking of all elements of their cost structure and their quality of service against best industry practice in the sector. The companies mentioned above are examples of where this has happened. An Post is also currently addressing these first two steps.

Obviously, the third stage is to develop a strategy for change with a view to achieving a bottom line financial result which is capable of securing and sustaining the future of the company and the jobs of its workforce in the new competitive environment. The kind of strategic review I am talking about is essentially long-term in its perspective rather than day-to-day. This brings me to the forth strand of our approach. What we are seeking to create is strategy.

What about the tactics?

That is what went wrong during the summer — tactics but no strategy.

My intention is that in future we — and by this I mean unions, management, boards and Government — will anticipate problems before they actually happen. We will face up to emerging problems before they engulf us.

There is a penitential tone about this.

Then if we plan properly and take timely action we will stand a much better chance of achieving the desired end result for our country. We must do this because all these sectors are in a period of radical change——

It says "a state of flux" here.

The Deputy should stop interrupting, please. The Chair should not have to intervene in this way.

The script actually says "state of flux" which is exactly what is happening.

——and in some cases unprecedented growth. Those who cling to the certainties of the past run the risk of being swept away.

Bye bye, baby, bye bye.

(Interruptions.)

What we must do, and what I am determined to do, is to have our commercial State sector focus on the future and not on the past. That is why you currently see, across the entire range of the commercial State companies for which I am responsible, a great deal of strategic thinking about the future.

That is what they are going to do when the Minister has gone.

I am encouraging and accelerating strategic reviews in the companies. Where this is not already happening, I have instructed that it should happen without delay.

Let me give three examples of areas where it is vitally necessary to take this kind of strategic view. One can ask what the future for Bord na Móna is in the energy mix for the years ahead. An organisation whose role was conceived in the vastly different conditions of the 1930s has an urgent need to make sure that what it is trying to do in the 1990s and beyond corresponds to today's needs and today's marketplace. The answer to these questions is important to everyone, not just to Bord na Móna, because our total energy costs are affected by everything we do in any part of that sector.

What is the future for An Post in the era of the information superhighway? Is it to wither slowly at the risk of giving worse and worse value and service as its traditional markets move away from it, or is it to pursue new opportunities? There is obviously a viable role for An Post that can be pursued with vigour once its role has been clearly defined. As I mentioned earlier, in June last I requested the chairman of An Post to carry out a detailed review of the operations of the company. This review will be considered by the board of An Post at its meeting tomorrow.

Third, I have a clear vision for the future stategic development of CIE.

It must provide an effective and high quality public transport service. It must give full value for money to both the taxpayer and the public transport user.

What about the workers?

It must be customer driven and meet the real needs of users. It must have a commercial outlook which thinks more of profits and dividends than of continued survival on subvention. It must see a committed, dedicated workforce as a key to its success. Its financial relationship with Government must be based on written mediumterm contracts rather than a lump sum subsidy handed over each year.

You printed it like confetti.

The investment strategy for CIE is already clear. With European Union support, over £600 million will be spent in the six years 1994 to 1999. The Dublin Transportation Initiative provides a policy framework for investment in light rail, quality bus corridors and other public transport improvements in the greater Dublin area. Under the operational programme for transport, the mainline railway network is being renewed and the locomotive fleet is being upgraded.

CIE receives a £100 million subvention from the State each year. This runs the risk of creating a dependency culture in CIE. Nobody is sure what the taxpayer gets in return for this money. I want to change that. I plan to negotiate a series of public service contracts with CIE. They will cover a five year period beginning with the 1997 financial year. These contracts will spell out clearly what services CIE will provide and what the State will pay to support non-commercial services. CIE's contractual obligations will be defined in terms of both the quantity and quality of service to be provided.

A Deputy

I hope the rural buses will keep running.

The taxpayer will see clearly how his or her taxes are being used. My Department and CIE management have already had preliminary discussions on this new mandate.

As any business person knows, having a strategy is not enough. Making it happen is equally important. In the end, what counts is whether the strategy gets implemented, and strategy only gets implemented if it is done in partnership between unions, management and Government. For this reason, the fifth and final strand of the new approach is critical. We must organise the transport, energy and communications sectors so that they can effectively manage inevitable, massive change.

Like the departure of a Minister?

And they must do this in partnership.

Managing change effectively means enhanced accountability by the commercial State companies and greater transparency so that potential problems are not masked until they have become life threatening to the organisation and costly to the taxpayer. It means putting in place a modern, businesslike relationship between the commercial State companies and the State itself — a relationship that balances the needs of the Government as owner, and the commercial State companies as provider. In this relationship, I see the Government in the role of holding company and each commercial State company as an operating company within a larger group. The operating company has the flexibility it needs to operate commercially in its own environment but within the overall needs and resources of the holding group. The company has a clear mandate and a brief to be profitable. The shareholder guarantees support. The regulatory framework will be transparent and fair.

It also means a total change management process in each company that goes well beyond the traditional issues based approach in industrial relations. Aer Lingus is an example of unions and management successfully co-operating in this way. A similar co-operative approach is also being pursued in, for example, the ESB and Telecom Éireann.

They are balloting on industrial action in Telecom tomorrow.

We must continue to devise new tools for new challenges.

New tools? The Lowry shovel never stops digging.

For example, in Aer Rianta I have sponsored an innovative approach between unions, management and my Department which aims at preparing for the inevitable challenges that Aer Rianta will face in the constantly changing environment of international aviation.

The sectors for which I am responsible are in a period of revolutionary change and we are faced with new choices. We are close to the end——

You are indeed.

——of the process of awarding a licence for a second mobile phone system. The process of selecting a strategic partner for Telecom Éireann is now under way. We are in the process of organising a competition for the franchise to build and operate the new peat fired power station. For each of these we have devised a selection procedure that is transparently fair and patently free of political interference and which will achieve the best value for the country by selecting the best proposal.

The advent of competition complicates the role of Government as both shareholder and regulator. It is vital, in the interests of fairness and transparency, that the shareholder and regulatory powers are separated. Regulatory powers which up to now have been exercised directly by the Government will have to be handed over to an independent regulatory body. I am expediting the creation of such a body so that it can be up and running by next year when competition arrives in mobile telephones and to create the necessary environment for investment in Telecom Éireann by a strategic partner. I also see a need to provide new regulatory regimes for other sectors for which I am responsible. As part of this process I am having a broad examination of regulatory systems in other countries carried out so that we can benefit from their experience.

Who will do that? Deloitte and Touche?

These, therefore, are the five strands of our approach to bringing about revolution in these key parts of our infrastructure: introducing competitiveness in all commercial State companies for which I have responsibility; creating a focus on customers' needs in all these companies; measuring performance, including appropriate benchmarking in order to identify the industry targets for these companies; developing effective long-term strategies for a rapidly changing environment and responding rapidly to adverse trends; and implementing the strategies by a comprehensive change management process.

The pace at which change must take place in the transport, energy and communications sectors is more revolutionary than evolutionary. The world will not wait for us to change at our own pace. The companies must develop the capability for ongoing change and, where they have not already done so, they must begin the change process now. It must be undertaken in partnership between unions, management and Government and must go beyond the traditional issues driven approach.

My vision for the future is a group of commercial State companies which are profitable, successful, vibrant and growing.

And not a liability to the taxpayer.

What about the workers? Fine Gael does not care about the workers.

The Minister is in possession and I ask both sides of the House to desist. The Minister, without interruption.

I believe that the contribution of our State companies must be acknowledged and developed. They cannot, however, be protected from the marketplace. This is a public policy and shareholder approach that will ensure that the successful tradition of public enterprise in Ireland will continue.

It is like a fairy story.

The Minister's failure to answer the questions put to him is noted.

I want no interruptions from either side of the House.

I move the following amendment to amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"demands the immediate and unqualified withdrawal of the outrageous allegations by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications regarding corruption in the semi-State sector; condemns the appalling behaviour of the Minister in this whole affair; and calls on the Government to take the necessary measures now to repair the enormous damage caused as a result of the Minister's total loss of credibility with the semi-State companies".

It would have helped if the Minister had addressed some of the issues which have arisen in recent days, including the statement today by a semi-State company, and the problems he faces in that sector. The board of CIE is disillusioned, an industrial ballot is pending in Telecom Éireann and there are difficulties in the ESB. The Minister could have addressed these major issues, but he read his speech as if there were no problems with himself, his Department or the semi-State boards. That does not follow the practice in this House.

He was ducking and dodging.

When I was in Trinity College recently for freshers' week, the politics society thrust a quotation by Sir Ernest Benn in 1930 into my hand. The quotation, which could be applied to what has been happening here for the past week or two, states: "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and then applying the wrong remedy." We contend that the Minister has done that.

Far too much time and energy have been wasted by the Minister on naked party political concerns. These are irrelevant to the problems of the semi-State sector.

Who is Sir Ernest Benn?

As a Minister of State, the Deputy should not show his ignorance in the House.

Fianna Fáil is proud of the commercial semi-State bodies, mostly created during our successive periods in Government.

Mostly staffed by Fianna Fáil employees.

They have in the main proved a successful concept. However, as with any large scale commercial enterprise, they have continuously to adapt to new competitive challenges. It is naïve of any incoming Minister to present himself to the public as a white knight while listing some of the unresolved challenges facing State companies. Any new Minister could say the same.

The Minister of State, Deputy Carey, should do some work. As far as I can see he has done nothing for the past ten months.

The Deputy must not have his ear to the ground.

He is becoming a professional joke. He should look after rural developments or the islands.

Deputy Ahern, without interruption.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Deputy Bertie Ahern led by example.

The eight years that Fianna Fáil was in office, from 1987 to 1994, was a period of considerable progress in the semi-State companies. The latest ESRI report on energy utilities notes that in the mid-1980s Ireland's lack of competitiveness was aggravagated by unfavourable trends in the cost of such essential services while the situation today is more satisfactory. There was no ESB price rise during the period we were in Government. There has been tremendous development of our airports, with traffic increasing by 64 per cent between 1987 and 1993. Aer Rianta and the ESB have been successful in winning contracts abroad. The taking of An Bord Gáis into the State sector and the extension of gas usage has been successful. B & I, once the source of chronic financial problems — this House was asked many times to extend the limit of the taxpayers' money given to it — has been sold to Irish Ferries and is now part of a successful group. Aer Lingus was painfully restructured but is now on a much sounder footing, carrying more passengers than it did eight years ago, with the transatlantic services flourishing.

CIE's subsidy has been steadily reduced, yet the railways are carrying 20 per cent more passengers with improved services. Major public transport investment was negotiated by the last Government with Brussels, for which the Minister will try to claim credit. It should never be forgotten that in 1984 the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition said in its policy document, Building on Reality, that there would be no more investment in railways. Bord na Móna has been restructured and is operating commercially.

The Whitegate Refinery has been operating quietly and efficiently. An Post has been turned around and is now making impressive profits. In the late 1980s I persuaded my Cabinet colleagues not to sell off the Great Southern Hotels group which, I am proud to say, is flourishing under the management of Aer Rianta, making sufficient profit to fund its new investment.

Even though the Deputy's party threw away the West Cork Railway in the 1950s.

The Minister has done little of substance in his first ten months in office. Apart from tidying up one or two loose ends in the Aer Lingus restructuring programme, he has obtained a decision on the restructured financing of Bord na Mona, which was at an advanced stage when I left office. Otherwise there has been mostly a lot of empty political bombast. The Minister made an ill-judged intervention in the critical ESB talks. Even Business and Finance in its March edition described some of his proposals to introduce competition as naïve.

Aside from his Department's remit, at last a partner has been found for Irish Steel. In our period in office, Irish Life was disposed of profitably for the State, the sugar company was sold and is now thriving as Greencore. The future of ACC, ICC and the Trustee Savings Bank still awaits a Government decision despite the fact that such a decision was ready for announcement this time last year. I am not sure what has happened since.

Under our stewardship telecommunications charges were reduced and restructured in the teeth of a Fine Gael campaign of opposition.

Fianna Fáil appreciate the dedication and spirit of public service in the semi-State sector, whose achievements have been enormous. We want to do what is best for their development, for the security of their employees, their customers and the competitiveness of our economy. It is no longer possible for them to carry employees over and above their needs, as they were encouraged to do in the early 1980s. Their real net indebtedness has been reduced significantly.

Fine Gael has a latent, ideological hostility to semi-State companies, already manifest in the person of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.

Bullology.

Left to itself, that party would want to privatise everything and curtail the activities of the semi-State sector whenever it threatens competition with the private sector. I am not surprised that the Minister's Government colleagues insisted that he moderate the ideological content of his speech in the House on Tuesday last, clearly demonstrating he is no longer master of his Department. The public would not tolerate a position in which the service provided by a monopoly deteriorated in private hands and prices charged by utilities rose so as to reward private shareholders, buying State assets on the cheap, paying inflated salaries and share options to directors. Fianna Fáil will not go down that road, nor will we follow some of the principles enunciated in the House this evening.

At the other end, the ideological attitude of the Left tends to disregard competitiveness. The Labour Party often seems to think the economy exists to service the public sector rather than the other way round. We are a small country and, while it may make sense in a large one to have competing electricity utilities, such competition is highly artificial in an economy of our size. The Minister rightly sought some derogation.

Two sets of issues need to be addressed — the survival and flourishing of the companies themselves and the impact of their operations on the competitiveness of our economy. We have achieved competitive prices for electricity well below those obtaining in Northern Ireland. The problem is how to sustain that performance when addressing the question of new investment. Our telecommunications charges remain too high, as do our postal charges. Clearly there is a dilemma about maintaining high levels of employment in a semi-State body if the prices charged are at the expense of employment elsewhere. On the other hand, becoming more competitive, by drastically reducing service to the public — a feature of some of the proposals of An Post — clearly is self-defeating.

Fianna Fáil has the right, balanced approach to the semi-State sector and its relationship to the wider economy. Our pragmatic attitude formed part of the basis of the trust we built up with the trade union movement and of the social consensus that underpinned economic recovery since 1987. As Mr. Bill Attley recently pointed out, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications has a lot to learn in his approach to the semi-State sector.

Events have demonstrated the shallowness of the Minister's approach. He is a lame duck Minister, lacking the necessary authority or credibility. He has damaged confidence in this Administration by wild and unfounded charges against the integrity of respected business people under Dáil privilege.

Most observers will have viewed with profound distaste the controversy the Minister initiated over the past few months. He is a Minister whose ambitions go way beyond his proven abilities and experience, intent on establishing op"ri = "1"a reputation for political ruthlessness. Retrospectively he attempted to justify his dismissal — essentially for political reasons — of the former chairman of CIE in a manner of which the Civil Service could not have approved.

He had good reason.

It is clear also he has been influenced by Fine Gael claims during the Cork by-election and by resentment of the forced resignation of the former Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney. We recall the headlines of November when a prominent Fine Gael Deputy attacked the sale of the CIE site. My colleague, the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Cowen, will have a lot more to say about the background to that.

He should have a lot to say.

He can say it all tomorrow evening.

The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications has allowed himself become the voice of the whinge factor in Fine Gael, listening to people, whether businessmen or politicians, who attribute the fact that they are losers to the alleged sharp practice of their opponents who want to discredit the deal for their own reasons.

From time to time all politicians and a substantial number of senior public servants are presented with anonymous letters. Anyone who has served as Minister for Finance will know that such correspondence is received daily, often about Revenue and PRSI contributions of certain individuals. Most of it belongs in the wastepaper basket. Occasionally it may be a sensible precaution to send them to the Garda for further action, if any, but it is dangerous, naïve and irresponsible of a Minister to give exaggerated credence to anonymous information which conforms to his political prejudices and allow it into the public domain. He is all too likely to be left exposed, unable to have the information transmitted to him substantiated, especially when he cannot vouch for its source.

The Minister let it be known, directly and indirectly, he had been placed under surveillance by named businessmen because of his determination to seek out implied corruption or a "cosy cartel" in the semi-State sector. Evidence of the Minister's personal involvement in this regard will be given by one of my colleagues. When challenged to substantiate the charge, he fell back on the defence that much of this matter is sub judice— that despite the recent Dáil ruling allowing comment.

Shame on the Minister.

The Minister contends it is almost never possible to know for certain whether or not one is under surveillance. Senior Members of this House are constantly in the public eye; nearly everything we do or say is witnessed, noted by others and repeated. Assuming Ministers are not engaged in anything illegal, underhand or deceitful, they have nothing to fear whether under surveillance or not. If legitimate but confidential meetings or correspondence enter the public arena inexplicably, there may be grounds for concern but the Minister has not produced concrete evidence of anything of that kind nor has he admitted to the existence of a final Garda report.

The Minister spent a large amount of taxpayers' money and Civil Service time trawling for possible abuses in the semi-State sector in order to justify his charges, the sole net result being that here and there a tightening up of procedures is recommended in the Deloitte & Touche report. Most of those tighter procedures, such as the Cromien guidelines, were introduced by Fianna Fáil. We are totally against corruption of any kind. Let me repeat that.

Then let the Minister tackle it.

Despite the assistance of an army of civil servants, advisers and consultants, the Minister hung his entire case on the single thread of the Horgan's Quay site. The businessmen involved in that deal enjoy a reputation for integrity, capability and, above all, delivery, resulting in many important developments and jobs benefiting Cork, including Merchants Quay. It is my understanding that the Horgan's Quay site was not especially valuable, that the proposed development, leading to some 800 jobs, could be considered as quite high risk. Given its high risk, it is not surprising that the project has been abandoned by its promoter now that it has been rendered a matter of political controversy. The Cork Harbour Commissioners may have had an interest in the site but gave no indication they were in a position to purchase it from their own resources.

What about Mr. Hegarty?

What about him?

(Interruptions.)

The Member in possession without interruption, please.

I accept it would have been more satisfactory had the site gone to competitive tender — a subject to which we might return — but I very much doubt whether CIE would have got a better price as a result. The decision was cleared by the entire board — as was reaffirmed today in defiance of the Minister. The charge that the public or the taxpayer lost out is unsubstantiated. Where is the evidence that anybody is prepared to pay more now than the project has been withdrawn?

Did the site beside Killarney railway station go to competitive tender before the Minister's forthright intervention ordering Bus Éireann to dispose of it, despite assurances having been given the Dáil that he did not involve himself in the detail of State company property transactions?

Ask Deputy Cowen.

What are the ethics of giving away State property in a closed deal? What price or compensation did CIE — a company strapped for cash, as the Minister said — get for the site it was forced to give up? The Minister could have put that property up for public tender had he wished but obviously it was valuable to a particular developer. Here is a clear case of double standards. If Horgan's Quay was a scandal, or a closed deal, so was the Minister's improper intervention in Killarney. Bus Éireann did not get value for money — in fact it got no money at all. Jobs were the motivation in both cases. There is always a potential conflict between cutting red tape, getting on with projects that promise badly needed jobs, and fulfilling every possible procedure. That has been faced by many Members over the years.

It is totally indefensible that the Minister could abuse Dáil privilege to attack the reputations of individual successful businessmen who have contributed much to this country. Fine Gael has shown itself to be a party, allegedly proenterprise, ready to kick the private enterprise sector as well as the semi-State bodies around as a political football.

Fianna Fáil is totally opposed to extravagance in the public sector, but we must be careful when we criticise to be sure we are on safe ground. The Minister was forced to retract his accusation about the alleged American trip by the former chairman of CIE. I thank him for supplying the papers from which he quoted, we got them late this evening from the Dáil Library. Has the Minister corrected in the Official Report his estimates of Mr. O'Leary's travel costs? He could have done that tonight. Who was responsible for doctoring the bill that purported to show that Mr. O'Leary stayed at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel. Was it the Minister's office, the Department or CIE? If a deliberate attempt was made to bolster the Minister's claim by producing falsified evidence, we should be told who was responsible. We must have honesty in this House. As the Minister is laughing, I assume he knows who changed it. He should tell us who it was.

He is laughing.

It is a disgrace. He should be ashamed of himself.

The civil servants in the Department would not agree with the Deputy.

I have no intention of debating the merits or demerits of Mr. O'Leary's travel. The new management, which displaced him, claims it was of absolutely no value to CIE, and the Minister seems to stand over that. The old management represented by Mr. Kennedy, a former acting chief executive who worked with CIE for more than 40 years, hotly disputes this. All that should be clarified in committee and I hope that the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies will, as another committee of the House did last year, go through all these matters. I am sure it will come to satisfactory conclusions after a week or so as 20 or 30 people must be brought before it. Mr. O'Leary gave his service as parttime chairman for a salary less than half that of a clerical assistant fresh into the Civil Service. At least that was not extravagant and I am sure the Minister will acknowledge that. He and Noel Kennedy, who was on half-salary as he was past retirement age, have been replaced by two people, each paid more than £80,000 per annum. That is fairly extravagant. The Minister sneers at Mr. O'Leary being driven around in a limousine abroad. Is the Minister not being driven around in a limousine every day of the week at considerable public expense when he, too, presides over a CIE strapped for cash?

The Deputy had a limousine for a long time.

Why not? The Minister cast aspersions on the integrity of Mr. Ambrose Kelly. It is now acknowledged by CIE that Mr. Kelly was not involved in financial negotiations on the Horgan's Quay site and that the Minister's claim here last week, that Mr. Kelly acted on behalf of O'Callaghan Properties Limited in negotiating the deal with CIE, is factually wrong. I must protest, as Fine Gael did in this House at the time of the Galmoy controversy — Deputy Hogan remembers it well——

——at trying to embroil CIE officials in his defence and embarrassing them deeply in the process. The Minister misled the Dáil on Mr. Kelly's role. He must now also correct the record on that. The onus of proof is on the person making allegations. The other allegation about Mr. Kelly is unproven and has been contradicted by Mr. Kelly as well as by Mr. Kennedy.

It was disingenuous of the Minister to make an issue of the fact that no deposit had been paid on the Horgan's Quay site, under an agreement subject to contract, when the contract was cleared by him only a fortnight ago. I note the contradiction in the Minister's statements and replies to the Dáil as to when he became aware of the issue. Perhaps during this debate he will say which of the dates he has given, April, May or June, not to mention last November, is correct. The Minister, of course, never misled the Dáil. He would never do so, he just gave us a number of options on the truth.

The Minister's case is threadbare. Even the Labour Party agrees that he overstated his case. It has been claimed that Fianna Fáil is trying to split the parties in Government. I have few expectations of doing that. As my Deputy leader said recently, they are stuck with glue. I am well aware that the Labour Party does not care tuppence about standards in public life unless it suits its political agenda. As for Democratic Left, political slander has always been part of its repertoire and the Minister's rhetoric last week comes straight out of its book.

The Minister for Health in Opposition made the infamous statement, "heads in baskets — that's what politics is all about". I reject that crude political philosophy of which Minister Lowry up until now has been a keen disciple. Politics is about public service, not prize fights. I did not seek the resignation of the former Minister of State, Deputy Hogan, and the record will show that. I did not seek the resignation of the former Minister, Deputy Coveney. It is not my duty, but that of the Taoiseach, to seek the resignation of Minister Lowry. The long drawn out episode has damaged the authority and credibility of the Minister. He has effectively bound himself up with Democratic Left and the Labour Party. He will carry little authority with either management or trade unions in the semi-State sector. Deputies opposite know he was quite prepared to blacken their reputations, fairly or unfairly, if it had helped to save his face. We know that there was chaos in his Department last week about which I could go on at length. The Minister put his staff under pressure, made them suffer and used many outsiders in the process. The Minister has not given a satisfactory explanation in that regard.

The Deputy was under similar pressure 12 months ago.

Two worker directors of CIE have demanded that Minister Lowry apologise to the workers in the semi-State sector and he should have done so tonight. Do the Labour Party and Democratic Left stand four-square behind a discredited Minister or do they stand with the semi-State workers? The Minister of State, Deputy Stagg, or another member of the Labour Party, perhaps the Tánaiste, may answer that tomorrow night. The Minister has also been prepared to blacken the names of honourable and respected business people. The Progressive Democrats' motion has given another chance to answer some of the questions raised. The Minister has not given one answer, he is not interested in giving answers.

On a number of occasions this year the Fine Gael Party has shown that it is woefully short of ministerial experience and wise heads. Some of those who have the experience have been left languishing on the Fine Gael backbenches, many of whom are here tonight. While I might not always have agreed with their viewpoints, they have experience and would not have allowed the Minister to get into this mess. Since mid-September he had plenty of opportunities to make his position clear before a committee or in this House, but he refused to do so. I do not understand why he will not answer the questions we keep putting to him. Why will he not apologise to those who deserve it? Why will he not be upfront and helpful to the House? He appears to be trying to force Members to table a motion of no confidence in him. Some of his handlers would appear to welcome such a motion, they believe the matter would rest there. That will not happen. Tomorrow night we will vote on this issue.

I hope we will then enter into long and protracted discussions at the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored bodies during which we can seek to get answers. If the Minister does not answer questions then, there is an option to table a motion of no confidence in him. The Minister would save everybody a good deal of trouble if he decided to restore his credibility by answering the questions, stopped hiding behind sub judice rules, the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Labour Party and spent less time asking the three Government parties to support him. Others have had to come into this House to answer questions. I have had to answer questions on Greencore, the former Minister, Deputy Cowen, had to answer questions on Galmoy and questions have had to be answered about many other matters. About 60 questions have not been answered. We have tabled them repeatedly, but the Minister could save a good deal of time if he answered them.

There are many serious issues that must be faced up to in the semi-State sector. The Minister only touched on a few of them tonight. Perhaps he has not had enough time or interest to study them or believes there is no point in addressing them. It is up to the Taoiseach and his partners in Government to decide if they should retain a Minister who has lost all public confidence and whether they prefer to give him a fool's pardon, as they seem prepared to do. I hope we will not face turbulence in the semi-State sector and a loss of business confidence. It can be sorted out and, if the Minister or the Taoiseach do not do that, somebody must answer for it.

Unfortunately, management and workers have a great sense of responsibility, maybe far more than that held by the Minister. I hope, before the end of this debate, some Member representing the Government can give us one good reason we will not be forced to go through the lobbies to vote no confidence in the Minister, in the coming days. On behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, I ask the Minister to answer some of the questions on surveillance, cosy cartels, the maligning of business people and on several other issues he refused to answer. If he does not do so we will have no option but to force a vote in this House, which we are reluctant to do.

Debate adjourned.
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