Bertie Ahern
Ceist:4 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach if he is planning any revision to Government Procedure Instructions. [14919/95]
Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers - Ethics in Public Office.
Mary Harney
Ceist:5 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the arrangements, if any, that have been made and the steps, if any, taken since the formation of the present Government to ensure that Ministers avoid a conflict of interest. [14956/95]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 and 5 together.
Since taking office, the Government have taken two major initiatives to ensure that Ministers avoid potential conflicts of interests.
First, the Ethics in Public Office legis lation has been enacted, providing inter alia a legal framework for the formal recording of certain private business interests held and gifts received by office holders, including Ministers. Second, on my appointment as Taoiseach. I took the unprecedented step of requesting all Ministers, Ministers of State and the Attorney General, on their assuming office, to furnish me with declarations of their financial interests. This was done in advance of the enactment of the ethics legislation so as to set a lead in this regard and to show my total commitment to the principles set out in that legislation.
The Government today made a Commencement Order under section 1 (2) (a) of the Ethics Act, bringing into force the provisions of the Act in so far as they relate of office holders. I understand that resolutions will shortly be put down in the Dáil and Seanad, to bring into operation the provisions of the Act which relate to Members of both Houses.
One of the effects of the Commencement Order is to establish the Public Offices Commission. The commission is charged with the preparation of guidelines for officer holders and members of the Oireachtas, to assist them in complying with the Act. When the guidelines are ready, it is proposed to update the Government Procedure Instructions to take account of these and other developments. It is also proposed to publish the instructions, in line with a commitment given in the Government policy document A Government of Renewal.
During the passage of the Ethics in Public Office legislation and the debate so far on the Electoral Bill I suggested that the procedures and guidelines involved be put before the House so that Members are clear as to what they are expected to live by; otherwise we would spend the next ten years arguing about it.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that it is contrary to the Government Procedure Instructions to brief the press either directly or indirectly on matters to be brought to Government?
It is not my purpose to interpret Government Procedure Instructions without notice. However, if the Deputy wishes to put down a question in regard to any aspect of a particular matter I would be more than happy to answer it.
I understand that it is the Taoiseach's responsibility to deal with breaches in the procedures.
That relates to revision of Government Procedure Instructions, and I have indicated the position in regard to that. The Deputy is seeking to deal with individual aspects of the Government Procedure Instructions which are embodied in a lengthy document. Should he wish me to interpret that document or report on the implementation of any individual instruction he is more than welcome to put down a question but I am not here to provide on the spot interpretation of particular sections of any set of instructions.
On Question No. 5, will the Taoiseach say how the £6 million fees demanded by counsel for Goodman in the beef tribunal will be adjudicated, given the Attorney General's interest in the matter. I raised this issue some time ago and I would like to have an update from the Taoiseach on what is happening.
Arrangements have been made to ensure that the Attorney General personally has no contact with this matter. It will be dealt with quite independently of him in a way that protects the public interest.
Would the Taoiseach agree that there is a conflict of interest in a Minister appointing to a State board under his control somebody with whom his family business had very valuable commercial dealings?
I have difficulty in answering questions of a hypothetical nature and am not aware of the matter to which the Deputy refers. However, if she wishes to put down a question or make an allegation by means of motion I suggest she does so as I am not in a position to give any further answers.
I am asking the Taoiseach about the principle of the matter.
In general I regard it as very important that Ministers avoid anything that could be construed as being in any way a conflict of interest but I do not think I should go further because it seems that the Deputy has a specific case in mind and is asking me to interpret without notice the facts of a case of which I am unaware.
Did the Taoiseach speak to all the members of his Cabinet about possible conflicts of interest before answering this question today?
No, I was asked what steps I have taken since the formation of Government to avoid conflicts of interest, I have outlined those steps and indicated also that we introduced and processed the ethics legislation, that it has come into force, that I have sought declarations of financial interests from Ministers on a scale that was never asked for before by any of my predecessors, and that I have obtained that information of which a record is kept. If the Deputy has any other allegations to make she should make them and I will deal with them.
I did not make any allegations but I am trying to find out Government policy in this matter.
When did a question become an allegation?
Both Deputy Rabbitte and the Taoiseach were very keen on asking this specific question when in Opposition. Should it be brought to the Taoiseach's attention that a Minister had appointed to a State board somebody with whose family business he had very close and valuable commercial dealings, what action would he take?
The question of appointment to a State board depends primarily on the usefulness and value of the person's contribution to the board. If Ministers have divested themselves of their business interests — I do not believe that business people should be excluded from becoming Ministers — I do not see any problem with appointing to a State board someone with whom they may have had dealings in the past but if there were some suggestion that something improper was being done or sought that would be an entirely different matter. I do not think the fact that a Minister in his private capacity had done business with somebody in the past should disqualify that person from any appointment to a State board. Otherwise people would have difficulty in doing business with politicians in their private capacities.
We know that office holders have to divest themselves of their interests for the purpose of doing their job and avoiding potential conflicts of interest. In the case of ongoing business what would the Taoiseach regard as material facts that should come into the public domain? In other words where a Minister has obviously divested himself of potential conflicts of interest, would the Taoiseach agree that where there are facts that are material to the public domain but do not necessarily involve a conflict of interest, these should be made known to the public so that they might gauge the situation.
That may well be the case. I have indicated to the House that I have obtained very extensive declarations of their financial interests from all Ministers, including interests that may be held by their relatives, such relatives being private individuals who do not have a public responsibility. Obviously for that reason I am not able to publish the entirety of the information I have received — it affects third parties. The Ministers will comply in full with the provisions of the Ethics in Public Office legislation and all matters pertaining to it. I am satisfied that will work well. If the Deputies had any suggestions to make more rigorous the provisions of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, they had the opportunity to put them forward during the passage of the legislation through the House. I am satisfied this Government does and will act in an ethical way in all its dealings.
One of the questions the Taoiseach answered related to Government procedures. Can the Taoiseach tell me who is circulated with copy of the memoranda on policy initiatives that go to Government?
I am in the same difficulty answering this question as I was in answering one of Deputy Ahern's earlier questions. I was asked, in the question put to me, to deal with a revision of Government procedure instructions and I have answered that question. I am not in a position to provide a service of interpretation in respect of the instructions. I do not have the instructions in my brief but, if the Deputy wants to put down a question about any individual aspect of current Government procedure instructions, I will be happy to answer it. The Deputy will understand that it is hazardous for me to attempt to interpret instructions of this nature on an extempore basis in reply to questions of which I have not had notice.
Does every Member of the Cabinet get a copy of the memoranda?
My understanding is that every member of the Cabinet gets a copy of the memoranda for Government. Otherwise, Ministers could not do their work. If the Deputy wants a detailed outline of the circulation arrangements for Government memoranda, I will be more than happy to obtain that for her, but I cannot do it without notice. I urge the Deputy to put down the questions she has in mind and I will answer them.
Maybe the Taoiseach could tell me what programme managers get copies of memoranda for Government?
This question may not go on indeterminably.
I am asking the Taoiseach a specific question: what programme managers get copies of the memoranda?
I will get the information for the Deputy. I understand the programme managers receive copies of Government memoranda.
Why is the Taoiseach afraid to go on the record?
The Deputy is availing of this question about a revision of Government procedure instructions to put questions to me without notice. I have no doubt that, if I give information that is not entirely accurate, the Deputy or some of her party will accuse me of not giving full and frank information to the Dáil. I would prefer to be in a position to give the information in the fullest, most comprehensive and carefully researched form. The best way to enable me to do that would be for the Deputy to put down a question.
The Deputy has to put down the right question.
I am calling for Question No. 6 to be responded to. If Question No. 6 is not responded to immediately, I will move on to Priority Questions.