Vol. 457 No. 6
9 Mr. O'Leary asked the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht the implications, if any, for landowners and persons living in the 600 square miles of County Kerry designated as national heritage areas in so far as grant aid, planning permissions for various developments, agricultural subsidies and other related matters are concerned. [15612/95]
No natural heritage areas, NHAs, have been designated to date. Designation will not occur until amending legislation to the Wildlife Act, 1976, has been enacted. I expect to introduce such legislation to the House in 1996.
The areas likely to receive NHA designation have been advertised as proposals and interested parties are made aware of the land in question and may, if they so wish, informally object through the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, either to have land included or excluded from a proposed NHA.
Applications for grant aid in a proposed NHA are normally referred to the NPWS to check whether the proposals are likely to damage the conservation interest of that area. If the proposal is likely to cause damage, then the NPWS will so advise the grant-aiding authority. If that authority agrees grant aid will be refused. If the proposal is not likely to cause significant damage, then the NPWS will make no objection.
I would remind the Deputy that it is a standard condition of grant aid that the project being assisted will not damage the environment and this condition applies in all areas of the State not just areas which are proposed for designation as NHAS.
In relation to planning applications, the position is similar. Planning authorities are asked to notify the NPWS of applications likely to have an effect on NHAs. The NPWS will offer its views and if it feels the proposals will damage the environment it will object formally. The decision in all cases remains with the planning authority and An Bord Pleanála. Proposed NHA designation has no effect on agricultural subsidies other than in the case of the rural environment protection scheme where farmers will receive a higher rate of grant in proposed NHAs. This scheme is voluntary and involves farmers agreeing to farm in an environmentally friendly manner.
I want to stress that the present boundaries are proposals and are open to review on scientific grounds. I urge landowners who have concerns to contact their local NPWS officials.
Is the Minister aware of the chaos in County Kerry where one third of the land mass will be theoretically affected by this designation? Kerry Council Council, which has statutory responsibility for this matter, should have adopted the county development plan in 1994. However, due to the current ambiguity it has had to seek an extension until the middle of 1996. The general consensus among officials of the council is that the development plan will have to be adopted in spite of the vagueness of the general advertisement in the newspapers and their inability to explain the implications of the Minister's intentions. The signposting, so to speak, of the Minister's intentions is having a negative effect on the ability of this statutory local authority to proceed with its business.
Neither I nor my Department wish to delay Kerry County Council in carrying out its statutory functions. While I accept that there has been some confusion the issue is straightforward in one respect. One could have gone ahead with a series of designations which may have raised questions about their statutory base. That is why there must be an amendment to the Wildlife Bill, 1976. In the meantime I have put in place a consultation process. Ultimately it is for the people of Kerry and their representatives to decide on what is a good plan. It is also equally important to them to take into account the expertise available by way of opinion through the National Parks and Wildlife Service. This important service should be open to listening to those who are worried about inclusion or exclusion. The timescale we have set is the best way of proceeding; it is the clearest legal basis for ensuring a designation process which has adequate public consultation.
The staff of the planning authority must advise concerned interests who are supposed to carry out a quasi-judicial function and make written submissions. People do not understand how proposed legislation can override a statutory function. The Minister should attempt to resolve this difficulty by informing the planning authority concerned which is trying to fulfil its statutory function — not all planning authorities are caught in this dilemma — what it is intended to do. Currently, staff within the planning department are not in the position to answer queries from concerned land owners and others within the county who wish to make submissions and suggestions and lodge objections as they are not aware of the contents of the Bill and its implications for the county development plan.
The Bill, which will be presented to the Oireachtas in 1996, will provide the legislative base. If it were decided not to await the presentation of that Bill we would find ourselves in a position where advertisements would be placed without sufficient consultation and appeals would be lodged. There could be a collision between the NPWS in seeking to meet its responsibilities in one direction and individuals proceeding by way of the planning process with the local authorities. It would be more logical to clearly lay down the statutory basis for the process. Admittedly, this means we will have to wait until 1996. In the meantime the suggested NHAs have been put forward as a basis for discussion. The NPWS is available for consultation. On judgment, it would be much more fragile to proceed without first enacting the Bill. That is how I came to my decision.
There is considerable concern within the county about this proposal. Will the Minister give an assurance that the tracts of land designated will not be turned into playgrounds? There is considerable concern that this proposal is a Germanic solution to an environmental problem which does not exist.
Nothing will be done in this area by way of ministerial diktat. A set of proposals has been put forward and the officials of my Department remain open to hear views on them. Equally, my Department has no intention of interfering in any way with the statutory obligations of the local authority. I intend, however, to monitor the process. It should be as inclusive as possible and take into account the opinion the Deputy has just expressed.
Does the Minister agree that it is most unsatisfactory that another Government Department is using the proposed designations of NHAs as a pretext in order to extract undertakings from farmers that they will not lodge an appeal for five years not-withstanding the fact that the necessary legislation has not been introduced? This is extraordinary. Will he take the matter up with the appropriate Minister and ask him to desist?
In the first instance, it is a matter for the elected heads and those in managerial positions within the local authorities to whom I presume the Deputy is referring——
Perhaps I should clarify the matter. It may not have been brought to the Minister's attention——
It has.
——that the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry is seeking written guarantees from farmers under the REPS that they will not lodge an appeal against the designation of their land as a national heritage area for a period of five years in order to secure the maximum grant payable not-withstanding the fact that the necessary legislation has not been introduced. Does the Minister agree that this is absurd?
The position is that we could proceed with the process of designation without the ultimate protection of a change in the law. This will happen in 1996. I take the Deputy's point, but I wish to finish mine as it is of interest. The two Departments from which I usually receive communications are the Departments of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and the Environment. In the case of the Department of the Environment, any potential environmental damage must be taken into account in making decisions, not just planning decisions. The NHA scheme should be used as a policy guide, no more and no less. On the question of how people might use it as an administrative instrument — this is a matter of concern to the other Minister mentioned — I will convey the views expressed by the Deputy to my colleague.
In an age in which Government is reliant on PR, a poor job is being done on the matter of NHAs. Listening to this debate, it appears that they are being perceived as a threat. If the purpose and meaning were properly conveyed, they ought not to be seen in that way. In the light of what has been said, does the Minister have any proposals to open up better lines of communication with the bodies whose concerns have been conveyed to him across the floor?
In the spirit in which the Deputy made her observations, communication could have been better in the past. I have been trying to put a clear consultation process and firm legislation in place. I agree that there should be better communication. The Deputy will be delighted to learn that I do not have any public relations consultant working for me. There is an oifig eolas in the Department. We should make the case of NHAs. They will work if we can secure consensus on their acceptability. We should use the intervening period to achieve this objective.
Before he departed for his constituency last evening Deputy O'Leary spoke to me about this matter, as did Deputy O'Donoghue. The position is that a blanket advertisement will be placed in the newspapers seeking submissions, representations and views on the proposed designation of national heritage areas. Will the Minister ensure that a formal submission is made to Kerry County Council which is seeking to adopt a countrywide plan? There are 600 square miles affected without a statutory or legal basis known for what that third of the land mass of the county will be as they embark on adopting a statutory five year plan in advance of the implications of the Minister's legislation. A formal comprehensive submission should now go to Kerry County Council outlining the intent so that it could be embodied in the written statement so that the residents of the county and the planning officials know their exact responsibilities.
First, the Wildlife Act, 1976, which will be amended by the Wildlife Bill, 1996, deals with a whole wide range of matters. The question of giving legal support for European Directives and national regulation is one part of it so as one prepares for bringing regulation and, through regulations, directives into effect, that work can be ongoing. I have no difficulty in asking the officials of the National Parks and Wildlife Service to have discussions with officials from Kerry County Council to deal with particular issues which have arisen there.
That would be most helpful.
I remind Members opposite that when these regulations were introduced some years ago the only grounds for objection which a landowner could make to the placing of an NHA on lands on which he might have an ownership interest was on the basis of scientific grounds. Obviously, there are major areas of economic concern in this case. Will the Minister clarify whether entering objections on the basis of economic grounds would be entertained rather than on purely scientific grounds?
The reason we are having a period of time which some people might say is confusing is that at least we are having discussion and consultation. Frankly, I was unhappy with the previous arrangements which were by way of advertisement. I had many complaints about the inadequacy of consultation in the past. We have this time now and we should use it as practically as we can.
I agree a number of things will have to be borne in mind, not simply scientific matters but it would not be appropriate, at this stage, for me to start indicating the criteria.
Does the Minister agree we are in an extraordinary situation? On the policy guide, he has published maps and indicated the designation of areas. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry is looking for guarantees that people will not appeal against policy guides in specific areas. Will the Minister agree that the whole situation is a mess? None of us in this House knows what an NHA is because there is no law which defines an NHA. In fact, what is happening in this whole area has no legal basis. What the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry is doing, in looking for guarantees under the REPS scheme against appealing against the policy guide, is null and void. It is nonsense, like the whole scheme at the moment because it is not on a statutory basis.
The confusion which might be there now comes out of a deep well. Those who were given responsibility in the past for all of this area should, perhaps, have brought it out a little better. All I am trying to do, now that I am responsible not just for policy but also for its execution in this area, is to put open procedures in place. I think any Government will welcome that.
Tá an cairt roimh an capaill aige agus tá a fhios aige é.
I want to facilitate another Deputy on this.
Ní chuireann sin as dom beag ná mór. If Deputy Ó Cuív wants to contrast the kind of consultation which is there, and will be there now, with what was there previously, he will not find the result comfortable for himself or his party.
I put it to the Minister that there is no more environmentally sensitive local authority in the country than Kerry County Council. In this context, I remind the Minister that Kerry County Council is currently drawing up its county development plan. What implications do the Minister's proposals have for that county development plan?
I said I will ask my officials of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, and any such other appropriate officials of my Department, to be of such assistance as they can to Kerry County Council in the preparation of its plan. I will be delighted to do that. I take the Deputy's point that it would be wrong if, at the end of this discussion, there was any conflict between local authorities and the NPWS or, indeed, the public. I agree that in the end what emerges must be something which is more clear than it is now but it must enjoy public support and acceptability and I will facilitate such discussions as might help.
Will the Minister report?
