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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 1995

Vol. 459 No. 7

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take No. 7; No. 6; No. 8, Votes 1, 2, 6, 13, 15, 17 and 41 only; No. 9, Excess Vote 39; and, subject to the agreement of Nos. 7 and 6, Supplementary Estimates, Votes 3, 18, 20, 25, 28, 29, 30, 31, 40, 41, Second Supplementary Estimate, and 42; and No. 8, Vote 34 only.

It is also proposed to take No. 11 and, subject to the order being made, the Report and Final Stages of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1995, No. 2 and No. 10; No. 10 shall be taken at the conclusion of the announcement of matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 20 and the order shall resume thereafter.

It is further proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) Nos. 7 and 6 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded on No. 6 shall be taken forthwith; (3) No. 8, Votes 1, 2, 6, 13, 15, 17 and 41 only, and No. 9, Excess Vote 39, shall be moved together and decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (4) subject to the agreement of Nos. 7 and 6, Supplementary Estimates,

Votes 3, 18, 20, 25, 28, 29, 30, 31, 40, 41, Second Supplementary Estimate, and 42 and No. 8, Vote 34 only, shall be moved together and following arrangements shall apply: (a) the proceedings shall be brought to a conclusion within one hour by one question which shall be put from the Chair and if a division is demanded on such question, it shall be taken forthwith; (b) a general debate may arise thereon; (c) the speech of the Minister for Social Welfare and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (d) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed five minutes in each case; and (e) Members may share time; (5) subject to the order being made on No. 11, the proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1995, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications; (6) the Second and Remaining Stages of the Milk (Regulation of Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1995, shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry; (7) the proceedings on No. 10 shall be brought to a conclusion within two hours and the following arrangements shall apply: (a) the speech a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fail Party and the Progressive Democrats shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; (b) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (c) Members may share time; and (d) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply not exceeding 15 minutes; and (8) Private Members' Business shall be No. 19 and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m.

As Members will appreciate, there are a number of items to put to the House. Let us try to expedite matters. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m. satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals that Nos. 6 and 7 shall be decided without debate and that any division demanded on No. 6 shall be taken forthwith satisfactory and agreed?

Item No. 7 relates to the formal procedure to allow various Estimates discussed in committee during the past week or two to be debated in the House. As the House is aware from an issue we raised yesterday, all Members of this House and the Seanad——

(Interruptions.)

Let us hear the Deputy in possession without interruption.

If it were possible to pay compensation to hepatitis C victims before Christmas, all Members of the House would approve such an Estimate, but that is not the case. A tribunal has not been established and State liability for such costs has not been ascertained. Item No. 7 raises the question of whether the £60 million in question may be deferred to the 1996 Estimates. It is our view that for legal and technical reasons it would be incorrect to do that. I asked the Taoiseach to check the position yesterday. I am aware the Government has informed journalists and others that such a procedure occurred on three previous occasions, one relating to liability for An Post pensions from 1984. That claim is incorrect as the pay claims for a number of years were paid to the individuals concerned in the relevant year. Regarding the Aer Lingus case raised by the Government with journalists in 1993 the Minister for Transport and Communications, Deputy Cowen, introduced the Air Companies (Amendment) Act, 1993 to provide for money to be included in legislation.

I am anxious to facilitate the Deputy, but I must dissuade him from making a long speech.

Before we decide on No. 7 will the Taoiseach indicate the position regarding the Supplementary Estimate of £60 million which relates to 1996 or later years?

It would be helpful before deciding on the matter if the Taoiseach indicated if the money will be paid out of the Exchequer in 1995 and, if so, where it will be lodged?

The Government decided to establish a tribunal to administer a special scheme to compensate those affected by hepatitis C. It was agreed to create a special fund so that the tribunal will be established and will commence its operations this year. There is nothing hidden about this. It is perfectly appropriate to establish the fund to underpin the body being established in the same year. That was made known to the Opposition by the Minister for Health, most recently in committee last week when the Opposition did not raise any objection to this procedure. They supported it and probably wished we had gone further in this regard. It is strange that the Leader of the Opposition who was a former Minister for Finance should accuse the Government of fraud yesterday when he engaged in the same procedures when he was Minister for Finance.

Incorrect.

I will refer to the record. Seventy million pounds of public sector pay arrears scheduled for payment in 1993 were brought forward by the Minister for Finance into 1992. Forty four million pounds of NTMA savings were carried over to reduce Exchequer debt service costs in 1993; in other words money saved in 1992 was carried forward into 1993.

The Deputies opposite have a short memory.

That was a different matter.

In December 1993 £70 million due for payment in January 1994 was brought forward by the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Ahern, into 1992.

(Interruptions.)

Furthermore, £179 million in NTMA savings were carried over to reduce the Exchequer debt service costs in 1994 even though those savings had occurred in 1993. Who was the Minister for Finance on that occasion? The Minister for Finance was none other than the leader of the Opposition, Deputy Ahern. However, it did not stop there.

They are lies.

In 1994, and I know the Deputy had a number of other things on his mind on that occasion which might cause him not to be as attentive as he was in previous years——

The Taoiseach had a good deal on his mind at that time too.

(Interruptions.)

——he exceeded himself in 1994. There were more transactions in 1994 than in any previous year of the kind Deputy Ahern described in the Dáil yesterday as fraudulent.

You are a fraud.

I will give an example of what he did last year. Fifty million pounds in equity in Aer Lingus scheduled for payment in 1995 was brought forward into 1994 in the dying days of Deputy Ahern's regime and put into an escrow account.

Fifty million pounds in P & T pension fund liabilities was also brought forward to reduce the 1995 cash payments to the fund.

Furthermore, £59 million of NTMA savings were carried over, even though they were made in 1994.

That is a different matter.

I express my gratitude to Deputy Ahern for this. He carried forward into 1995 savings made in 1994, a very considerate gesture to make things easier for the incoming Government. It is plain that arrangements of this kind have occurred in virtually every year in which budgets have been presented and it is an indication of the extent to which the Fianna Fáil Party have lost touch with reality——

You are a fraud.

——that the author of "the dirty dozen" should come in here to launch an attack on the Government on this occasion.

(Interruptions.)

The record of Deputy McCreevy in terms of keeping public expenditure under control, which is the subtext here, was deplorable.

The Taoiseach is dancing to Proinsias's tune. He is even writing the Taoiseach's script.

I will give a list of the real increases in public expenditure that occurred when Fianna Fáil was in office. For example, in 1991 we had a 6.4 per cent increase in public expenditure in real terms. In 1992, when Deputy McCreevy was in office, even despite his efforts in terms of social welfare, we had a 6.7 per cent increase in public expenditure in real terms. In 1993 we had a 6.1 per cent increase in public expenditure——

(Interruptions.)

I urge Fianna Fáil not only to have a happy Christmas but to have a reflective Christmas, to reflect a little on its record before it manufactures completely artificial moral outrage here on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Members will appreciate that strictly speaking no debate should take place now. I will hear Deputy Bertie Ahern and Deputy Harney for brief statements and proceed to the Vote.

Yesterday I did not accuse either the Taoiseach or the Government of fraud but I would like to do that this morning——

(Interruptions.)

That word was used. It would appear that Deputy Ahern not only used it but——

(Interruptions.)

I have given the floor to Deputy Bertie Ahern.

In his rant this morning the Taoiseach said we accused him of fraud yesterday. The fact is that what the Taoiseach did yesterday, and what he is trying to justify today, was not done before. In respect of the examples he quoted of An Post liability, Aer Lingus — which was covered by legislation — and the various pay issues, the money was paid in the relevant year. What the Taoiseach is doing, and for which the Minister for Finance is guilty, is against the wishes of the Department of Finance. It is against the rules governing the Comptroller and Auditor General to be involved in deceit on the 1996 expenditure. The Taoiseach is suppressing the 1996 expenditure and putting money into a tribunal which has not been set up. It is legally and technically incorrect to do this and it was not done in the past.

What the Taoiseach said about the National Management Treasury Agency is absolutely incorrect. In respect of the An Post liability, the Labour Party Ministers were totally in agreement with what was done. In accordance with section 4 of the Air Companies (Amendment) Act, 1993, on this week two years ago the Department of Finance and the Comptroller and Auditor General stated that money could not be brought forward to 1993 and pushed to 1994 without legislation. Does the Taoiseach stand over his argument? If the Taoiseach wants the £60 million carried forward why will he not introduce legislation? Why was I advised and why did the Comptroller and Auditor General force me on that occasion to bring in legislation?

I want to dissuade Members from having Question Time and debate now. We cannot, and I will not tolerate it.

(Interruptions.)

There will have to be legislation on this.

Order, please. I call Deputy Harney, if she wishes to intervene.

The Taoiseach is somewhat out of control this morning. It is hard to believe that the man who produced the document, "Planning the Nation's Finances in a Better Way" is presiding over this fiscal fiasco, which is what it is.

(Interruptions.)

The Fine Gael Party might as well join Democratic Left. Fine Gael is even using its language.

(Interruptions.)

Will the Taoiseach accept that the £60 million does not exist, it is being borrowed? This year we are borrowing £1 billion to run the country and the current spending in 1995 is four times the rate of inflation.

Did the Deputy check the figures when she was in Government?

Where will this money be lodged until it is paid out?

Deputy Harney should reflect on the fiscal fiasco that occurred when her party was in office, when there was an increase in public spending of 6.4 per cent in real terms. In fact the largest increase in public spending in recent years occurred when the Progressive Democrats Party was in office with Fianna Fáil. The fact of the matter is that the Deputy's record and that of her party, so far as keeping public expenditure under control, is so deplorable that this is one subject on which the Progressive Democrats should maintain, in its own interest, a decent silence. So far as the Deputy's question this year is concerned I would like to tell her that the provision is being made this year to establish a tribunal. We are putting aside the money this year to meet the liabilities of the tribunal that is being established this year.

The question is: "That Nos. 7 and 6 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded on No. 6 shall be taken forthwith".

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 60.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Gilmore, Éamon.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Question declared carried.

The next question to be put to the House is in respect of item No. 3, that No. 8, [Votes 1, 2, 6, 13, 15, 17 and 41 only], and No. 9, [Excess Vote 39] shall be decided without debate.

Since the Taoiseach has borrowed some of the phrases of Democratic Left, he should also borrow their printing press and he might then get the Estimates published a little earlier.

Is the Taoiseach aware of the document, "An Outline of Irish Financial Procedures", which I have had for so many years it is yellow, which states that the appropriation accounts are prepared on a receipts and payments basis and contain only cash received and paid out during the period of account? Is the Taoiseach further aware that the Constitution specifically refers to this matter and that it is illegal, technically incorrect and fraudulent accounting to do what is being attempted? As Deputy Ahern pointed out, the Taoiseach is factually erroneous in his interpretation of the article in today's edition of The Irish Times.

I must dissuade Members from having a debate on every item before us. It is not in order.

Will the Taoiseach comment on this document which is an outline of Irish financial procedures by the Department of Finance, and on his own document which, innocent boy that I was years ago, I have kept?

This should be left to the debate proper when the Estimates come before the House.

Would the Taoiseach like to comment?

Is it legal?

(Interruptions.)

I am putting the following question: "That the proposals for dealing with Items 8, excluding Vote 34 and 9, be agreed to".

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 56.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Question declared carried.

Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 6 and 8, Vote 34 only, satisfactory and agreed?

The Taoiseach is long known to be an advocate of proper debate in this House. During this one hour debate on these Supplementary Estimates, by my rough calculations, the expenditure of £111 million will be passed. That is altogether separate from the £60 million Supplementary Estimate for Health and the various other Supplementary Estimates of last week.

We cannot anticipate the debate on that matter now. It will be coming up shortly.

If we vote for No. 34, we are restricting debate today on £111 million additional expenditure to one hour. That is not a proper manner in which to conduct our business. The detailed breakdown of the individual figures under various headings is not known on this side of the House because they could not be published until leave to introduce the Estimates was granted about ten minutes ago. It is very unfair to the Opposition to have the debate now without knowing the contents of those Estimates and have them passed when there may be an endeavour to push through another £60 million at the last minute.

The debate about to ensue should not be anticipated.

Is the decision of the Taoiseach to wilfully perpetrate an illegal and fraudulent act in this House, simply to dance to the tune of the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa——

I am putting the question.

(Interruptions.)

I have a question to you, Sir, on the matter of procedure. Given what has been said by my colleague, Deputy McCreevy, what is the legality of what has been done here this morning, bearing in mind that we await advice from the Comptroller and Auditor General on the overall fraudulent act being perpetrated by this Government? It is making a mockery of this House simply to suit Democratic Left with its problem vis-á-vis the Estimates. It is unacceptable——

Deputy Cullen asked the Chair a question and will not even allow me to reply. There is a long standing rule of this House that it is not the function of the Ceann Comhairle to interpret the constitutionality or legality of any measures coming before the House. That is a matter for the courts if the Deputy so desires.

(Interruptions.)

I am putting the question: "That the proposals for dealing with item Nos. 6 and 8, Vote 34 only, be agreed".

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72, Níl, 59.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.
Question declared carried.

On a point of order, in view of the fact that only an hour is being given to debate the Supplementary Estimates for £110 million of expenditure——

That is not a point of order. The Deputy should resume his seat.

——does the Taoiseach realise we are debating expenditure at £30,000 per second?

We now come to the provisions for No. 11, the Report and Final Stages of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1995. Are the proposals satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. In respect of No. 2, the Second and Remaining Stages or the Milk (Regulation of Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1995, are the proposals satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. In respect of No. 10, the motion regarding the Joint Communiqué, is the proposal satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

We agree with the motion but I wish to record my disappointment that the Taoiseach refused to allow a comprehensive debate on Northern Ireland although we have been asking for one for several weeks. Perhaps we can take up the matter in the next session. We will have only a limited debate on this issue today which we have to accept as better than nothing. The Taoiseach should give consideration on the resumption of the Dáil for a full day's debate on Northern Ireland as many Members would like to express their views on a range of issues, not just the communiqué.

We already had a debate on the Joint Communiqué which could have been longer but the Opposition did not want it to be any longer. We will have a further debate today on one of the outcomes of the Joint Communiqué, the decommissioning body. Every week we have a debate on Northern Ireland at Question Time because invariably there are questions which refer to Northern Ireland.

The Taoiseach rewrites the rules.

The Taoiseach will not answer the questions.

The Opposition has ample opportunity to put its point of view in an interrogative form. If debate is the way of solving the problem this House is making a good contribution in that regard. What is needed is a willingness on the part of the parties in Northern Ireland to compromise and meet one another's positions rather than a recitation of existing and well known positions.

So we will shut up the shop.

We support the Government's motion but I want to correct what the Taoiseach said. I tabled eight questions on Northern Ireland to the Taoiseach this week and he transferred them to the Tánaiste who will not answer questions until February. Many of them were about the commission which will report in the middle of January. The Taoiseach is not correct when he says we can ask questions each week. We can only ask them if the Taoiseach allows us to do so. On this occasion he did not do so.

I answer questions on Northern Ireland every week without exception.

Why did the Taoiseach not answer them this week?

Any Member of the House who is present knows that is the case. Where a Minister has a prime function in an area it is appropriate to transfer questions to him. I will answer questions on Northern Ireland today.

Does the Taoiseach cherry pick?

If Deputy Harney consults the Order Paper she will see there is a question down and I have no doubt that with her commendable parliamentary ingenuity she will manage to ask virtually any question she wishes on that question today. I will do everything I can to provide her with the information she seeks.

The Deputy might ask but will the Taoiseach answer?

I made a brief point but unfortunately the Taoiseach appears not to accept any point made by the Opposition. We have sought a debate on Northern Ireland since the beginning of October. There are many issues which could be discussed such as cross-Border co-operation and community matters. Three or four Members usually contribute on Question Time and other Deputies do not have an opportunity to speak. Will the Taoiseach allow a full day's debate on the North at the beginning of the next session so that Members who do not have an opportunity to ask questions at Question Time or contribute to the debate on the communiqué will be accommodated?

I will consider the matter but as I pointed out we do not have a deficit in terms of debate on this subject.

Deputies

Nonsense.

The Taoiseach said he transfers questions where a Minister has a function in the area. I asked him about his nomination to the Seanad which is his function. He was not prepared to answer a question about that, so it is not the case that he merely transfers questions where Ministers have a function.

Is the proposal for dealing with item No. 10 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

Agreed but not satisfactory.

Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 19, Private Members' Business, satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

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