Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Mar 1996

Vol. 463 No. 2

Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Bill, 1996: Second Stage (Resumed.)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Connaughton

I regard this as a very important Bill which goes far beyond the proposals contained in it. It is about the balancing and repositioning of rights. Democracy is built on the rights assigned to individuals and communities over a period and the normal evolution of rights in a progressive society means introducing more liberal laws to enable people to think and act for themselves.

However, a dangerous culture has grown up here in the past few years whereby more and more rights are assigned to wrongdoers, law breakers, muggers and all sorts of evildoers. The perpetrators of crime now have more rights than the victims. The poacher has outfoxed the gamekeeper.

This House must reflect on the concerns of people and act accordingly. People are sick to the teeth of the latitude criminals seem to have. Hardened criminals know the law inside out. They know the loopholes and the limits within which the Garda Síochána must work. Above all else, they are masters in recognising their own rights.

My position is clear. I want some of the rights currently enjoyed by criminals retracted or reduced. I have spoken to hundreds of concerned citizens, particularly in my constituency, East Galway, following the spate of murders, muggings and savage beatings of elderly people. They all want tougher action against criminals, and it would be remiss of this House not to take note of that concern nation-wide. People want the balance to tilt back towards the victim. They want legislation which will be workable, sustainable, transparent and, above all else, effective. I share that view. I realise there must be checks and balances and mechanisms in place to protect the innocent. However, the honest, decent man and woman in the street want the security to be able to perform their lawful duties without the stress, anxiety and fear caused by criminals roaming our streets. What rights had poor Tommy Casey of Oranmore, County Galway, an elderly man who was savagely beaten in his own house by mindless thugs a couple of months ago? What rights had the two elderly farmers in east Galway, both living on their own, who were subjected to the most brutal attacks, who were beaten, burned and subjected to beastly and degrading behaviour by mindless thugs? They had no rights.

We had better accept that the fight is on. This is not something that has arisen in the past two months. It has been a creeping paralysis over the past ten or 15 years. During that time we allowed ourselves to be outmanoeuvred by a line of thought that convincingly claimed that everybody has certain sacrosanct rights. I compliment the Minister for Justice on introducing this Bill. However, I knew it would be only a matter of hours before there would be outright opposition to it. On Tuesday on "Morning Ireland" I heard somebody from a civil liberties group objecting to the seven day detention provision which is a central plank of the Bill. If that is taken out of the Bill, we will have wasted our time. Against that background, if we genuinely believe we are losing the battle, particularly against drug-related cases, we must ensure that our laws strengthen the had of the Garda Síochána on that very thin line between peace and anarchy and give them the wherewithal to carry out the job on our behalf.

It is important to protect the innocent. Under this legislation, whereby people can be held for seven days, a person in custody must be brought before a court within 48 hours, and any rights will be attainable at that stage. I see nothing wrong with that. We will have to go further to rid society of the menace of drug-related offences.

I am informed that about 80 per cent of inmates in some of our prisons are there for drug-related offences. If that is so, we have a huge problem on our hands. I do not have to tell this House that terrible deeds are carried out by drug-crazed criminals. Drug traffickers are the scum of the earth. I cannot think of anything lower than a drug trafficker. They should not have any rights. Some people will be highly critical of me for saying that. Any person who peddles drugs should be sentenced to hard labour. I would not be sorry if the death penalty were reintroduced for convicted drug barons. We have reached the stage where we must introduce draconian measures. The godfathers of crime have access to information and are legally well briefed. They are playing for extremely high stakes.

The provisions in the Bill must reflect the concern of the community that for the past ten years the balance seems to be in favour of the criminal. We cannot stand for that. The provision that non-uniformed gardaí may raid a disco is welcome and should have been introduced 20 years ago. The Bill also provides that customs officials may question suspects. That may need to be strengthened. We must hit criminals where it hurts most, in their pockets. Revenue and customs officials should be in a position to use whatever mechanisms are necessary to track down ill-gotten gains irrespective of whether they are invested in flats, shops, houses and farms or used in money laundering. Suspects should be hounded every day of their lives.

While we cannot do much to prevent people in foreign countries growing plants that produce drugs, we should try to secure our coastline and ensure drugs are not dumped on our shores. I understand several Governments have requested the EU to provide funding for a programme to examine the transportation of illegal drugs.

I compliment all those involved in drug seizures but we must remember that the amounts seized are the tip of the iceberg. There is a major drugs problem in Ireland and we must take all necessary measures to prevent illegal trafficking of drugs.

The Bill is an austere measure which I welcome. I have little time for the champions of civil liberties and do gooders as far as this issue is concerned. It is incumbent on us to put the boot in. I hope the Bill will have a speedy passage through the House. It will considerably strengthen the hands of the Garda and customs officials and if this measure is found to be deficient we must tighten the screw a little more.

The drugs problem was not given the attention it merited over the years. There is no point in saying that this Government is more likely to solve it than any other Government but I hope we will come to grips with the problem. I applaud the efforts of the Minister for Justice who is extremely interested in this area. She believes it is possible to curtail the problem, if not solve it completely. I hope this legislation will result in saving the lives and health of many young people who, were it not for drugs, would be in a better position than they are today. This matter concerns everyone and there is no point blaming the Government, Opposition or the Garda. Parents must take a greater interest in what young people do particularly late at night and at some of the rave discos. I hope the Bill achieves its objectives.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

I wish to share my time with Deputy Dan Wallace.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

It is estimated that 10 per cent of drug trafficking is detected and approximately 80 per cent of all crime in urban areas is connected in some way to drugs. Therein lies the dilemma. The Bill, in attempting to look seriously at measures to control the level of drug trafficking, has to be welcomed. Ireland is seen as the gateway to Europe for drug trafficking.

People are very much afraid of the effects of drugs. Parents fear that their children will get caught up in the drugs culture. By and large in the past the drug scene was confined to Dublin and to a limited extent to cities such as Cork and Limerick but now it is all pervasive. Everybody is enmeshed in the drugs culture. Crime gives rise to fears. The elderly are being attacked, there are break-ins, burglaries and murders: and people rob to feed the habit. It is important that something is seen to be done. Unfortunately there is now a public perception that crime pays, that people selling drugs are not apprehended and problems arising from drugs are not being dealt with at source.

The authorities took the view that there was not much point in apprehending the small-time dealer selling drugs on the streets and that it was far better to apprehend by means of surveillance those who were involved in the importation of drugs. We can justifiably claim that the unfortunate effect of that policy is that many of the small-time street traders have become the drug barons of today. By allowing them to go undetected and unreprimanded these drug traders have come to the conclusion that crime pays since they have no difficulty importing drugs and selling them on. We have now seen the error of adopting that policy.

When legislation is introduced, no matter how welcome, one has to look at the available resources. We are awash with legislation but in many instances it is not implemented because we have inadequate resources in terms of the number of Garda Síochána and customs and excise officials, and the capacity of the surveillance. Recently, I undertook a survey to establish the strength of the Garda force in the major areas on the periphery of Cork city and in the city itself. In Ballincollig, one of the fastest growing towns in Ireland, I found that over a four year period there were four fewer gardaí; Bishopstown was down two gardaí and in Douglas, Blackrock and Carrigaline it was similar with the result that on the southern side of Cork there were 20 to 25 fewer gardaí than there were four years ago. How can we hope to successfully implement the new legislation when we have not the resources or capacity to tackle crime on the streets. We get phone calls every week telling us that people are congregating here and there buying and selling drugs. It is a major difficulty not having enough gardaí on the ground.

Very few of the gardaí passing out from Templemore are being allocated to Cork. From the 88 who recently passed out from Templemore, Cork got one and from the two most recent graduations Cork would have been lucky to get five. The authorities are not ensuring that an adequate number of gardaí are being posted to the Cork area and are not managing the age profile of the gardaí. When I tabled a parliamentary question on this issue, it seemed age profile would become a difficulty similar to that in the Army.

I am aware resources are scarce but will the Minister look seriously at the number of Garda Síochána assigned to the Cork area from the past three graduations from Templemore. She may tell me this is an operational matter, but it is political and she has to have a say on the issue. The members of the Government will agree with me that Cork has experienced massive difficulties in getting new gardaí on the beat.

It is very difficult to carry out surveillance of the hundreds of inlets in Cork's very long coastline. Deputy Joe Walsh mentioned that the outpost in Castletownbere was closed down. The customs and excise officials work from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. and on rare occasions are allowed to work overtime at weekends. Surely we need to look at the rostering to ensure that the gateway to Ireland is under surveillance seven days a week. We have great opportunities to obtain funding from the Structural and Cohesion Funds to carry out surveillance. This week, the television programme "Prime Time" was able to track from where the drugs were coming in Morocco and the ships that were being used to transport them. It has the names of some of the ships owned by drug barons to import drugs and was able to pinpoint various stopping off points where the drugs could be offloaded to other ships and then transported to this country. If "Prime Time" was able to trace them, it begs a question about the Garda Síochána and customs and excise officials and whether the same type of information is available to them?

If the Urlingford operation was a sting operation, I praise the idea of trying to catch the drug barons even if it costs the State money. I hope there was not a tip off to prevent the real culprits, who will continue to wreak havoc on young people, being put behind bars. They only lost the initial deposit they paid for the shipment. This case raises questions about the lack of integration and co-operation between the Garda and Customs and Excise. While they have reached an agreement, they have still not come to grips with this new approach. The leak should be found because it had terrible consequences in that we were not able to put these people in jail.

The "Prime Time" programme on the problem in Cork was frightening. It showed how freely available are Ecstasy and other drugs in the night-clubs. The Garda and the State solicitor, Mr. Barry Galvin, have, on three occasions, opposed the renewal of a licence for people whose night-clubs were being used to sell drugs or who were suspected of being drug barons. We must pay tribute to them because we know what the drug barons are capable of doing. Mr. Barry Galvin is prepared to take action in the interests of parents and young people in Cork city.

I understand he and the Garda have put together a file on the drug barons in the Cork area. They have given examples of some of the activities in Cork and have tried to relate them to these people. They have listed the assets of the alleged drug barons and have given those files to the Revenue Commissioners. At a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts recently the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners indicated that their job was to collect money. They seem to be moving away from investigations and audits. We all know the Revenue Commissioners have powers of investigation. However, there have been few audits of individuals who have acquired assets from the illegal sale of drugs. It is time to address this matter.

I sympathise with certain Revenue officials who are afraid to take action. There is no doubt that threats have been made against officials involved in doing such audits. Not everyone is prepared to put their lives, their health or their families at risk to do this job. We must give proper backup service when such audits are being done by the Revenue Commissioners and we must assure officials that they will not suffer in their attempts to uphold the law. We must ensure that resources are available and there is co-operation between the Garda and the Customs officials. The Revenue Commissioners must be able to seize the assets of people who have acquired them through the illegal sale of drugs.

Deputy Connaughton said drug barons should have no rights and he would not be sorry if the death penalty was introduced. Society is becoming right wing out of desperation because there seems to be no improvement in the situation. Section 2 permits the detention of certain suspects for up to seven days. However, the detained person must be brought before a court and given the opportunity to give and to call evidence and to make submissions before a period of detention can be extended. Will the Minister re-examine this section, because it will make the Bill unworkable. She said the increased powers of detention were necessary under international law. However, people are afraid that those detained in connection with serious offences may have to be released before the investigations are concluded. A person can be detained for up to seven days but evidence must be provided as to why they were arrested. I ask the Minister to examine this section and to amend it on Committee Stage.

Mr. Deasy

This is a serious subject. I nearly fell off my seat when Deputy Batt O'Keeffe suggested we are becoming too right wing. I would say the opposite is the case.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

I can understand the Deputy has difficulties with the leftists on his side of the House.

Mr. Deasy

Who has not got such difficulties? The Deputy had some in that regard too. Ours is probably the most socialist state in western Europe and we are far from being right wing. We might be a good deal better off if we were. This legislation is necessary and desirable and, I hope, it helps in the fight against drug trafficking. I have serious reservations about our resources being sufficient to combat the problem. I do not consider that amending the law, as proposed in this legislation, is sufficient to tackle or solve it.

The gangsters who control the drug industry by and large get away scot-free. Their activities appear to be curbed only within their gangs. That has been indicated by a series of gangland killings in recent years in feuds between people competing over the right to sell drugs in particular areas of the cities of Dublin and Cork. I am not aware of any of those murders having been solved to date. That points to a significant factor, that we do not have the problem under control. In the past few weeks it has led to an alarming situation. We have been told that the Provisional IRA has issued a hit list and it will adopt — or has adopted, if the murder in the northside of this city at the weekend is anything to go by — the strange strategy it adopted for years in Belfast and in the North generally, of taking the law into its own hands by assassinating people it believes are seriously involved in the drugs business.

It is alarming that people are committing murders because they believe the law and law agencies are not able to deal with the problem. I would like the Minister to tell us why the law enforcement agencies, particularly the Garda, have been unsuccessful in dealing with the series of drug-related murders committed in the past two or three years. It indicates that the gangs operating the drugs industry are virtually untouchable.

I will repeat a fairly drastic suggestion I made during another debate some weeks ago. When there is a serious crime problem in any State, drastic measures must be introduced to solve it. The Garda alone do not have the necessary resources, manpower or maybe the professionalism to adequately deal with the problem. There are 11,000 Army personnel 750 of whom are presently on United Nations duties, mainly in the Lebanon trying to keep the peace between militant Arab sections and the Israelis. Also, many Army personnel have been released from Border duty because of the comparative peace that has pertained over the past year and a half. When law and order is at the point of breakdown, the Army should support the Garda to prevent crime.

We should talk more about prevention than prosecution. The statistics show that we are not able to prevent crime. We can only prosecute in 10 per cent of drugs related cases. We need to strengthen our resources. The Army should be brought in to aid the civil authority, the Garda Síochána. They need not and should not be brought in as an armed force, but for observation purposes and to control activities on the streets and in urban and rural public places. I do not consider that a dramatic suggestion, it is a necessity. If we cannot solve the problem utilising existing resources, we must tackle it in another way.

This legislation will go some way towards addressing but it will not solve the problem. Is the drugs problem in Ireland disproportionate in comparison with other European countries and other civilised societies? I suspect it may be. I would welcome a survey and the publication of statistics in that regard. If my suspicion is correct, we are not on top of the problem or anywhere near solving it. The series of recent murders pinpoint that we are not able to adequately deal with the problem.

That the IRA has entered the scene in the Dublin area should bring people to their senses and make them realise that we must do something further in terms of resources to ensure the drugs problem is brought under control. People have spoken of the need for EU assistance to deal with the problem. I do not consider that EU assistance is necessary, but there should be harmonised laws on this serious matter in the EU, as there is in virtually all others issues affecting society. The decision by the Dutch some years ago to legalise the sale of soft drugs was a serious mistake and should not have been allowed by the EU. I understand that decision will be reversed. However, it has resulted in Rotterdam becoming a clearing house for the drug trade worldwide. The free availability of soft drugs there has led to an escalation of the shipment of hard drugs through that port. That affects us because many of the drugs smuggled into the south coast emanated from Rotterdam and other parts of Holland. It is unacceptable that one country in the EC has legalised the use of drugs, ostensibly soft drugs but the problem has escalated to the position where there is a free-for-all in hard drugs. Rotterdam has become a clearing house for the drug industry and many of those drugs end up in our towns and cities. It is most unhelpful that the Dutch have taken a step which has proved to be injurious for the whole of the EC.

The fact that many of these drugs end up here proves that we are incapable of dealing with the problem. Drug smugglers would not use Ireland as a transshipment location unless they were getting away with it. Statistics indicate that there is only 10 per cent detection of drugs, and that is not due totally to activities of law agencies. Much of the cannabis discovered off the south, south-west and west coast was accidentially discovered by fishing trawlers — such discoveries were made on a number of occasions off the Cork and Kerry coast and last year off the Wexford coast. Cannabis is dumped in bales on the seabed for collection at a later date by drug smugglers.

I wish to refer to the discovery of 130 tons of cannabis in a trailer in Urlingford. It is very poor form for Members to be critical of the Minister for Justice and the Garda for what happened. I do not criticise the Garda or the Customs service because they do their best. Some people use this House as a medium for self-publicity and their actions damage the Garda and other law enforcement agencies. The Garda should not be criticised when an operation does not work out as hoped. To make a political issue of an operation such as that in Urlingford is improper, and the Deputies who tried to make capital of it for their own gain and publicity are a disgrace to this House. The Garda are doing their best, but do not have sufficient resources. They need back-up, and the Army should be mobilised to help in carrying out searches and observing what is happening throughout the country. That would enable the Garda to get on with investigative work.

The rate of apprehension is so low that the Garda strength needs to be boosted. If we compare the rate of apprehension here for serious crime, particularly gangland murders, with that in Northern Ireland, there is a massive difference. There are very few cases of serious crime in Northern Ireland where prosecutions are not proceeded with and convictions not obtained. We lag way behind in our ability to solve serious crime. Crimes, such as murder, which are committed by drug dealers and gangsters in the drug industry are not being solved.

We read in newspapers that guns are for hire and for sale. One of last Sunday's newspapers indicated that hit men will carry out an assassination for £5,000 — graphic descriptions were given. If that is true, and I believe it is, there is a serious breakdown of law and order. I wonder how prevalent is intimidation and threats to people involved in the investigation of activities by drug barons. I suspect we do not know the full story. I read recently that social welfare officers and Revenue Commissioners officials are threatened by gangsters if they do not give them what they want in terms of hand-outs or if they do not back off from investigation into their affairs. I wonder if Garda officers are threatened in that way. It is very likely that there is intimidation on a large scale. People investigating crime do not feel safe, and that is alarming.

The fact that murders are not being solved must give rise to serious concern. In circumstances where guns and hitmen are for hire, law and order is under serious threat and the problem is not being properly addressed. This legislation may help in a small way but it does not deal with the fact that people are getting away with murder. The Garda and law enforcement agencies are considered by those people to be irrelevant, hence the supposed vigilantes from the Provisional IRA are pretending they are the protectors of the citizens. That is an alarming development. This problem has existed in the North for years and now we are experiencing it in the Twenty-six Counties. The authorities in the North are used to investigating and solving serious crime, and until such time as we are capable of doing so we have a massive problem. If that necessities bringing in the Army to assist the civilian authorities, so be it.

Mr. M. McDowell

I fully agree with many of the sentiments expressed by Deputy Deasy on the overall problem of crime. The Progressive Democrats strongly support this legislation. The strong measures it contains — they ought not be measures on which we would lightly embark as part of the ordinary criminal law — are warranted by the extent of drugs-related crime. It is so serious and of such proportion that it would be wrong to regard it as anything other than an emergency. The strong powers in this legislation are appropriate to the scale of the crisis this country faces in dealing with drug-related crime. It is sad that last week this House rejected what I consider to be legislation which would have aptly complemented this Bill. The purpose of that Bill was to bring about a revolution in the way the criminal process works, from the point of view of a unified prosecution service to issues to do with bail and the abuse of bail. They are all related to the drugs issue, to the right of silence, to criminal procedures, to the sentencing powers of courts and to the whole question of imprisonment.

Does anybody believe that the big drug barons will not avail of the right to silence, that they will not avail of the loopholes in criminal procedures? If they feel they can get away with it, they will not testify at their own trials, they and their underlings will be the first to avail of our inadequate prison service and will use every possible stratagem to avoid the just sentence their crimes merit.

It is terribly sad that we are now putting in place what are well-intentioned powers to combat the drugs crime wave while at the same time turning down vitally necessary changes in the way our criminal system works.

The Minister for Justice recently took advantage of the privilege of this House to, in my view, abuse that privilege by levelling very serious and unfounded charges at my party's spokesperson on Justice, Deputy O'Donnell. In particular, the Minister took the unusual politically cowardly step of a staged Adjournment Debate to make very serious and completely groundless statements about Deputy O'Donnell's entirely proper and legitimate questioning of the circumstances that lay behind the Urlingford drugs seizure.

In my view the so-called seizure at Urlingford was not a seizure. The drugs were under the control of the Garda long before they were "discovered" or "seized" at Urlingford. The truth about their transhipment and transport to Urlingford has been known for some time. As early as December last — one month after the so-called seizure —The Irish Times published an exclusive background story in which it quoted the people of Castletownbere in County Cork as having come to the conclusion that the drugs had been landed by the Garda. If publication of that fact endangered anyone's life, that danger existed even before and since December 1995. Indeed, only the most naive observers would expect that drug dealers whom it was hoped to trap with the Urlingford drugs could not have put two and two together and seen that the entire operation had been one which the Garda had compromised in its planning and infiltrated, probably with the help of other countries' drug enforcement agencies.

When the matter was discussed in the Dáil two puzzling issues, which obviously demanded explanation, were raised by two Opposition Deputies. Deputy Bertie Ahern wondered how it was that those who brought the drugs to Urlingford could have escaped if there had been a proper surveillance operation. Later that day Deputy O'Donnell wondered why published explanations for ending the surveillance operation, namely a so-called leak to the media, was not being investigated because, if there had been such a leak to the media, obviously that was a matter of the utmost gravity. Both legitimate, reasonable queries were rubbished by the Taoiseach in one instance and by a Minister in another.

In February this year Deputy O'Donnell was informed, on credible information, that there were substantial grounds for believing that there had never been a seizure at Urlingford, that the drugs had been landed in Ireland by the Garda and had been brought to Urlingford under Garda supervision with a view to entrapping known Dublin drug dealers. If that information was correct, it logically followed that the Taoiseach's claim that the Minister for Justice was responsible for the largest drugs haul in the history of the State was suspect. It also followed that sustained references by Ministers to a seizure at Urlingford were seriously misleading, as was the Taoiseach's answer to Deputy Ahern's query about the failure to capture those in possession of the drugs en route to Urlingford. It also meant that the explanation given about leaks to the media, causing the end of the surveillance operation, was cast in a very different light.

The political claims and contemporary media comment to the effect that the Urlingford seizure marked the success of co-operation between Customs and Garda were also suspect and if, as is now clear, that Customs had little or nothing to do with the Urlingford operation, contrived photo calls of gardaí and Customs men posing with the haul took on an aspect of official misinformation.

If the information given to Deputy O'Donnell was correct, the obvious implication was that the public had been very seriously misled, both by Ministers and by certain people in the media who published apparently authoritative briefings based on very different facts.

It was in this context that Deputy O'Donnell tabled her original parliamentary question to the Minister. She wanted to know whether there had indeed been an element of sting or entrapment, on the basis that the drugs had been landed in Ireland by the Garda and were being transported within the State with a view to flushing out drug barons. The Minister's evasive Dáil reply was followed by a ministerial offer to Deputy O'Donnell of a Garda briefing. Deputy O'Donnell was immediately conscious that, if she accepted a Garda briefing, it might be charged subsequently she had abused that briefing if she were to impart the information she had given to this House. Deputy O'Donnell specifically told the Minister for Justice that she was accepting a briefing offered by the Minister only on the basis that she. Deputy O'Donnell, would not be compromised into silence on the issue. The Minister knows full well that Deputy O'Donnell accepted the briefing on that basis only. I want the Minister to confirm to this House that that is the case. Moreover, Deputy O'Donnell specifically told the member of the Garda Síochána briefing her that she would be speaking on the issue in the Dáil on the following Tuesday on Second Stage debate on this Bill. No assurances were sought or given that she would be silent on this issue.

In her Second Stage contribution Deputy O'Donnell was careful to confine herself to the matters to which her original information related. At no stage in her contribution did she in any way breach faith or the confidence of her briefing. The information in her Dáil speech — I challenge anybody to contradict me — pre-dated the Garda briefing. That information appeared in a Sunday newspaper the weekend prior to her Second Stage speech. Yet the Minister, one newspaper and at least one Member of this House on television, chose to allege that Deputy O'Donnell had breached the confidence of a Garda briefing in her remarks to this House last week. That was a reprehensible charge and I call on those who made it to withdraw it.

As somebody with whom Deputy O'Donnell discussed her information prior to tabling her original parliamentary question, as some one with whom she discussed her proposed contribution to this debate last week, I wish to refute in the strongest possible terms the unfounded and wholly unjustified accusation of the Minister and various other persons in this matter. The record will show that Deputy O'Donnell acted, as she always does, with propriety, courage and reserve. Those who did not want the public to know the truth of what happened in relation to the Urlingford drugs issue have not acted in accordance with those same standards. All of the operational detail, including the names of people suspected of involvement, have come into the public arena even though the media had been briefed by Garda sources.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

While passing reference to this issue would be in order, the Deputy should really be discussing the contents of the Bill.

Mr. M. McDowell

I want to correct the record of this House because, as you will be aware, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, the Minister for Justice chose what I consider to be a very cowardly option politically to come into this House and stage an Adjournment Debate in which she launched an unmerciful attack on Deputy O'Donnell's reputation and propriety, then left the stage without any opportunity for Deputy O'Donnell to reply. While that does not surprise me it does disappoint me.

In this Bill we are giving major new, strong powers to the Garda Síochána. If the culture of secrecy and obfuscation that surrounded the Urlingford matter, and the suppression of the truth in relation to that matter, were to continue in the context of these powers, it might have very serious implications for the implementation of the provisions of this Bill.

I have no objection, neither has my party and, in particular neither has Deputy O'Donnell, to entrapment of drug barons. Nobody thinks there is anything wrong with taking sensible legal and ethically defensible steps to amass evidence against those who we know in our hearts are orchestrating this vicious war against Irish people and society. Nobody knows better than I that to obtain evidence, mere suspicion is often insufficient. By the same token, where there is entrapment, this House does not want to know all the details of every Garda operation. Nobody in this House, least of all the Progressive Democrats, has ever suggested that this House should have a supervisory role in every Garda operation or should know the truth about every single item concerning the unrelenting war against drug barons. We do not want that knowledge but we insist that information tendered to this House is truthful. We acquiesce in the fact that some matters are not mentioned in this House but it is a different matter if people come in here and make claims which subsequently turn out not to be true.

We support the deployment of stronger powers in the fight against drug barons but there should be no hint from this House that it is appropriate for any Member, ministerial or otherwise, to make claims which subsequently turn out not to be true. I do not care if they are economical with the truth in certain circumstances but I object strongly to the proposition that a Member can put an untruth on the record of this House. These new powers must be balanced with ministerial accountability and responsibility. Every Member of this House is entitled, under the Constitution and under any democratic principle, to know that information imparted to this House is truthful and that claims are not dressed up to be something they are not, even to assist the laudable aim of pursuing major criminals.

It is open to a member of the journalistic profession to print material based on his or her view of what is ethical, having regard to the risk to people's lives and the major interest in society in containing the drug war. Nobody has the right, however, to impugn the integrity of others to sustain the unsustainable.

The allegations Deputy O'Donnell made in this House in relation to a sting or entrapment operation have been proved substantially correct. If drugs were being transported across Ireland for the purpose of uniting them with drug barons and then arresting those drug barons, that is what the average man or woman in this State would refer to as a sting or an entrapment operation. It was disappointing, therefore, to see responsible journalists being rubbished and thwarted and to read headlines which stated that certain people were denying that there was any such sting or entrapment operation.

It is easy to suggest that one's own interests are synonymous and conterminous with the national interest or that any challenge to a particular version of events is dangerous because it endangers the lives of innocent people. Any threat which arose out of the Urlingford matter was because of the circumstances in which the operation ended and do not post-date, in any material sense, the first article published by The Irish Times last December.

Anybody who read that article and who was of a mind to threaten somebody else's life could have put two and two together and worked out precisely what had and had not happened in relation to whether the presence of the drugs at Urlingford was a genuine transportation operation or an operation organised by the State with a view to entrapment.

Some explanation should be given as to the reason it only emerged at a late stage in all these proceedings that an investigation was not being conducted into the allegations made at the time that the entrapment operation at Urlingford had been compromised by a leak to the media. My colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, received a written reply from the Minister for Justice on Tuesday which stated:

The Garda authorities have informed me that all decisions in relation to this seizure were made for operational reasons. The Deputy will be aware that I do not involve myself in Garda operational matters. On the specific point in the question, I understand the gardaí have not carried out an investigation into alleged leaks.

A journalist was briefed by gardaí on the morning of the Urlingford operation and told that the operation had been compromised by leaks. That particular falsehood developed later to an allegation that members of the Revenue Commissioners staff had been responsible for that leak.

The day before yesterday I asked the Minister for Finance in this House to stand up for his own officers and say they had not been responsible for any such leak on the basis that there had not been any leak and that it was a gross falsehood and malicious to say that the Revenue Commissioners had compromised that operation by leaking its details to the media. I was disappointed that, although the Minister for Finance had read the remarks of the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, Cathal Mac Domhnaill, to the Committee of Public Accounts on this subject, he would not endorse, back them up or take the opportunity to vindicate the characters of the officers of Customs and Excise and say they were not responsible for leaking the details of the Urlingford operation to the media, thereby compromising that operation.

It is unfortunate that political expediency prevents the Minister for Finance from coming into this House and saying that his officers did not participate in the Urlingford matter; that their presence in photographs afterwards was calculated to mislead since they did not have any significant part in the operation and that, most certainly, the operation had not been called off on the basis of any leaks from the Revenue Commissioners, as the newspapers had suggested. That is a serious charge to have laid against the Revenue Commissioners and Customs and Excise officers, and it is unfortunate that a Minister for Finance would not come into this House and politically vindicate the standards of his own staff but chose instead to obfuscate and evade the issue in the hope that by doing so the political solidarity of the Government would be held together.

Our interest in this matter is at the political level in regard to what happened in this House. We do not have any argument with the gardaí; we have never sought an argument and will not have one in the future. We support the efforts of the gardaí in their war against drugs and we will not be deflected from pursuing political accountability and high standards of political truthfulness in this House by remarks made by any other person in any forum——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I remind Deputies there should not be any intimation that any Member of the House was untruthful.

Mr. M. McDowell

I am saying we will insist on truthfulness. This is a political matter. The controversy about Urlingford is at the political level. This House was consistently told over a period of months that there had been a seizure at Urlingford but we have now discovered that the facts were radically different.

Dr. Bhamjee

I welcome Deputy Michael McDowell to the debate. I note from the newspapers that he may soon be heading off to the High Court where he spent some time yesterday.

Ms O'Donnell

Who is the Deputy to speak?

Dr. Bhamjee

I gave my own background during the budget debate.

Mr. M. McDowell

Is there a split in the Labour Party?

Dr. Bhamjee

Next week Deputy McDowell, as a barrister, could be in the High Court defending the barons he is talking about today. I hope he will keep to his principles and not take the tainted money from these drug barons.

I am a psychiatrist and I am also regarded as a drugs counsellor. Drug abuse is not only a Dublin problem, it is a national problem. It exists also in the larger cities of Cork, Galway and Limerick but it affects every town and village. A few months ago when the Labour Party in Clare called a public meeting to discuss drug abuse it created a stir because people felt it did not happen in small towns. People came forward and later people from the villages asked us to come to talk to them. The people recognise that drug abuse is a major problem. I wish to state, for the benefit of Deputy McDowell, that it is not a problem of the unemployed only. His son, my son, our children can be affected today or tomorrow. He might be defending my son next week. It is a problem in every class of society.

Mr. M. McDowell

If he is unemployed, he will get free legal aid and I will not have to take his tainted money.

Dr. Bhamjee

He might be a user but I am sure the Deputy would be able to do justice for a few poor students. It may be that hard drugs are a problem in the Dublin area, usually heroin which is injected intravenously. There is a new phenomenon of burning the drug so that drug addicts become high on the fumes and we do not find marks on their arms as in the past. Cannabis is sold openly and ecstasy is available on every street. Only a five minute walk from here I can buy an ecstasy tablet for £10. The cost has reduced considerably because of supply and demand.

I was hoping that Senator Magner might arrange with the drugs squad at Pearse Street Garda station to come to this House and give us a demonstration. The smell of cannabis is specific. It would be nice if Deputies could smell cannabis, feel the grass and see what an ecstasy tablet looks like. It is similar to the panadol tablets which many Deputies take for the political headaches we have here every day.

Drug addiction commences with the 11 to 12 age group. We thought this was only happening in New York and other places, but down the road, not far from us, children of 11 and 12 are taking ecstasy tablets and smoking cannabis. I was shocked by this because I thought it started only at the age of 15 or 16. Also some middle aged people are abusing ecstasy and are beginning to abuse cocaine. Because ecstasy gives sexual stimulation some of the middle classes are using it.

A cigarette of cannabis costs about £8. The drugs squad showed the other day a drop of LSD, costing only £2, which one puts under the tongue to get high. There are different names for its such as apple juice, pineapple or banana and these are the varieties being used by young people. The content of these drugs is frightening. Besides the drug element that causes the high, the drug manufacturers may have put in sugar or arsenic, which are illegal. A child may take a tablet today which does not affect them but the next day they may get a tablet from a different supplier which will affect them. Everything depends on the source of supply. This is where the Bill is important. It helps us to get to the source of the supply.

One of the effects of these drugs is that one gets high, but the next morning there is a low to the point where children contemplate suicide. Some may have to take heroin to lift themselves up again. This is a double addiction and problems develop. With ecstasy, children need to drink water. I have heard from children that in some places the taps are closed off. Perhaps Deputy McDowell can examine the legality of this at the discos where the taps are locked so that children cannot drink the tap water and have to buy bottled water. This is dangerous because children have collapsed owing to lack of water which sometimes results in kidney failure. Some 14 to 16 children have died here because of ecstasy abuse. We are all aware that children have been isolated and found dead in public toilets, some with the syringe still attached to their armpits. It is sad that it is happening. It is our duty to prevent it and this Bill goes a long way.

Drug abuse is a way of life. Perhaps the Minister for Justice would be able to assist in tackling the problem. Another problem which some Deputies may have is alcohol abuse. One third of the admissions to psychiatric hospitals are due to alcohol abuse. The question is whether we are prone to drug abuse. I would like to inform Deputy Deasy that the level of drug abuse in Ireland is very low compared with the rest of Europe.

Some years ago I gave lectures at which I stated there was no drug problem in rural areas. I had to state the next year there was a drugs problem because drugs could be brought at any time. There is no such thing as drugs being available only at night or in certain locations, they are available around us. A cross addiction to alcohol and drug abuse is developing in the community. This is reflected in our reports to the health research board which is beginning to be concerned about the level of abuse.

I do not wish to sound pessimistic but drug abuse is a worldwide problem. I do not think we can stop it but we have to do our best to minimise it and to reduce the infiltration of drugs from Holland, which is also trying to prevent drug abuse becoming a major problem. I will refer later to the legislation on drugs there. Drugs are also coming from North African and South American countries. To put it in a political context, a deposed president of one of the South American countries was supposed to be a major supplier of cannabis to the world market. As he is deposed I am sure I can say it openly.

In Ireland we have different types of drug dealers. I read in today's issue of The Irish Times that four small suppliers have been caught. In regard to the sting at Urlingford — if it was as sting — I support the Garda in what they did because they were trying to catch the major supplier. There are different categories of supplier — the producer, drug baron and small supplier. The drug abuser who has to sell to get money to feed his own habit is also being caught. The other day an abuser was fined only £50 for having grass in his pocket. I feel sorry for such people — perhaps Deputy McDowell will take them into account — because I see the real face of humanity when I meet them as patients in my work. I also see it as my function to meet their families and, wearing my psychiatrist's hat, help people in a different way from Deputy McDowell when he wears his barrister's hat.

The solution to the problem lies in a multifaceted approach. I welcome the creation of links between the Departments of Education, Health and Justice. The Minister for Education is introducing drug awareness programmes in primary schools. Children take their first cigarette at nine or ten years of age and their first drink at 14. We have to tackle this problem when children are very young and primary school is the best place to do so.

It is of the utmost importance that emphasis is placed on personality development in schools. There must be development of self-confidence and responsibility so that a child acquires the ability to say no either to the drug pusher who offers free samples or their peers and friends who might encourage them to take drugs so that they do not, in turn, become a drug abuser.

I am critical of the methadone programme about which there has been much talk recently. I disagree with much of it as there is a replacement of one addiction with another. We should be looking at the multiple aspects of drug abuse, not just addiction. These includes personality and social problems and there is also a need for counselling.

Deputy McDowell and the Opposition should look at the development of public counselling services in Dublin city where there is a major lack of such services. After my appearance on a Sunday morning radio programme last week I received numerous calls from people in Dublin. Perhaps, as part of his constituency work, Deputy McDowell will ask for such facilities to be made available.

Mr. M. McDowell

There is another facility in Dublin South-East.

Dr. Bhamjee

That would be a practical step and should be simple and easy to obtain. There are private facilities the provision of which I know the Deputy encourages as this forms part of the Progressive Democrats's programme, I also work with a private facility.

Mr. M. McDowell

I was about to say that.

Dr. Bhamjee

There is a need for residential treatment programmes throughout the country, but particularly in Dublin. I work with the Bushy Park treatment centre which accepts public and private patients. It treats some people for nothing.

Sixteen to 18 year olds are beginning to present a problem. The age at which people begin to abuse drugs is now very low. This is worrying as they find themselves in situations where it is hard to stay away from drugs. My party has been doing much to provide housing and create employment. Perhaps when Deputy McDowell finds himself in Government with his Fianna Fáil colleagues in ten year's time he might continue this work.

Mr. M. McDowell

Will the next election be postponed?

Dr. Bhamjee

As this problem demonstrates, there is a link between politics and psychiatry. I know the Deputy is pushing for the Progressive Democrats seat in Clare, but he will find it a tough one to secure. I do not intend to give it up easily. As he can see, I have already started my election portfolio. I will be appearing on numerous television programmes and writing in newspapers for a long time to come.

Ms O'Donnell

On what subject?

Dr. Bhamjee

On all subjects. I will tell the Deputy privately about a few more in which Deputy McDowell may have an interest.

Mr. M. McDowell

To think the Chair queried the relevance of my speech.

Dr. Bhamjee

On the crime problem on which the Deputy would have more statistics, only 40 per cent is due to drug abuse. Contrary to what Deputy Deasy said, the recent murders in the west which the Deputy and his party hyped to such a high degree were not drug related. While drug addicts cause problems, they do not commit murders. I am sure Deputy Davern will disagree with me on that point as he is also on the right wing.

Mr. Davern

If the Deputy is as expert on this as he is on the GAA, he is pretty good.

Dr. Bhamjee

Perhaps Deputy McDowell will also look at the new mental health Bill——

Ms O'Donnell

The Deputy is obsessed with Deputy McDowell.

Dr. Bhamjee

——under which addicts will not be admitted to hospital involuntarily. I disagree with that provision and will be taking the matter up with the Minister for Health. I have admitted people against their will and found that when they are taken away from the source of supply they have a chance to abstain.

There is a campaign in the media to try to have cannabis legalised. I hope we will not take that road. I have seen people develop schizophrenia, a subject much debated in the High Court in recent days. The lack of motivation syndrome is associated with the continuous abuse of cannabis. It has been shown recently that genetic chromosonal problems can develop from the chronic abuse of the drug. We would, therefore, put at risk the future of our nation if we try to legalise cannabis. It is supposed to be good for pain relief and has been used by some to ease the pain associated with arthritis and gout. However, new born babies have needed immediate treatment for withdrawal symptoms which many of us would recognise.

I convey my best wishes to the Minister for Justice and the Garda Síochána who are confronted with a major problem. I wish them luck as it will be both frustrating and hard work to reduce the volume of drugs and catch the drug barons whom Deputy McDowell will defend.

Mr. D. Wallace

There is no doubt that the widespread use of illegal drugs is one of the major problems facing society as we approach the end of the 20th century. Unlike many of the other serious issues, the drug problem does not consist of a single element, rather there is a number of disturbing dimensions to drug abuse.

The use of illegal drugs has a disastrous effect on the life of the addict. As in the case of any substance abuse, the brief periods of relief and escape provided to an addict by the use of a drug are fitted in between extended intervals of sickness, despair, longing and, frequently, deep depression. In the vast majority of cases, therefore, the drug addicts find that normal life pattern is destroyed as their addiction develops. Examples of certain and frequent rapid decline are only too common.

Despite the widely known horror of the consequences of drug abuse it is a continuing source of amazement to many people that an increasing number of young people in particular seem to ignore all warnings and take that first disastrous decision to experiment with drugs. All too often the experimental phase is over within a very brief period and the unfortunate individual is well and truly launched on the painful road to full drug addiction. As the addiction deepens a number of other victims become directly involved. Inevitably, the family tends to suffer at an early stage. Slowly but surely, the son or daughter changes from a normal content member of the family unit to a virtual stranger, with much pain, hurt and despair along the way. As the cost of maintaining the drug habit increases, the addict frequently starts to steal money or goods from fellow family members. The family unit is plunged into crisis and existing problems are greatly magnified.

In the case of full blown addiction, it is almost impossible to quantify the damage caused to the overall family unit. In many cases people find it extremely difficult to regain the level of peace, happiness and trust which were taken for granted before addiction. When the addict has a partner or children the immediate damage is particularly severe. The damage does not stop with the addict or remain within the immediate family circle. As the habit increases a wide circle of friends and fellow students or workers are increasingly affected and the nature of the damage is similar to that in the family unit. The addict loses many of his or her attractive characteristics and often becomes increasingly alienated from friends and colleagues.

The fall-out does not end with the family, circle of friends or colleagues. An increasingly disturbing aspect of drug abuse is the widespread trend towards crime to obtain the necessary funds to feed the habit. As an addict becomes more and more hooked the nature of the crime may change from stealing and petty crime to more violent activities. Official statistics on the current position in Dublin are alarming. They indicate that more than half of certain types of crime is carried out by drug addicts desperate to feed their habit.

Before assessing the likely benefit of the legislation the Minister introduced as one of her main responses to the increasing drug problem, it is important to acknowledge the difficulties which lie ahead if we are to successfully tackle the problem of drug abuse. Despite the allocation of enormous State resources, it must be accepted that countries such as the United States, Holland and Switzerland have not made significant progress in eliminating the scourge of illegal drug abuse.

It would be dishonest and foolish for anyone to pretend that there are easy options. On the contrary, there is little doubt that the successful elimination of drug abuse will be achieved only by the development and implementation of a comprehensive set of measures which tackles the many interlinked elements of the problem. The resources of our educational and health care systems must be harnessed to promote total awareness among young people of the full horrors of drug abuse. While much effort has been invested to date in this area, through voluntary groups and individuals, even more remains to be done. Any hint of glamour must be stripped from the public image of illegal substance use.

A highly resourced anti-drug information campaign will play a key role in the battle. Three parallel programmes of equal intensity are required. Our security and custom personnel must be resourced with state-of-the-art detection technology and sufficient manpower. It is crucial that a highly sophisticated information network is developed under the control of the Garda to initially identify the main supply lines and, subsequently, the various distribution agents throughout the country. Similarly, every resource must be made available to the gardaí to allow them fully utilise international information facilities on drug producers, importers and distributors.

One of the two remaining vital requirements in the battle against drugs involves the development of suitable legislative measures to facilitate the successful prosecution of those involved in any aspect of the drug trade. The Bill helps in this regard and I compliment the Minister on at last beginning to respond to the major responsibilities which lie within her Department. Since the ultimate outcome of any prosecution is often highly dependent on progress made in the first few hours after arrest, I welcome in general the various increased powers provided to the gardaí in sections 2 and 4. There is also some merit in the provisions in sections 6 and 7 which deal with the involvement of Customs and Excise personnel during questioning and the rapid preparation of search warrants in a crisis.

On the other hand, one cannot ignore the fact that the need to increase Garda power to allow an increased rate of success in prosecuting criminals carries the danger of reducing legislative protection for ordinary law-abiding citizens. For example, the more we remove the special status of search warrants the more we dilute their primary purpose of protecting the right to privacy of ordinary law-abiding citizens. Therefore, I stress the need to maintain a balance in this key area, despite the universal wish to give our law enforcement agencies every advantage in the fight against crime.

The final element in the fight against drug abuse involved further development of treatment facilities for drug addicts. Ultimately the addict is a victim and we must not lose sight of that. Therefore, every effort must be made to ensure that our drug counselling and treatment services are adequately resourced to deal with all addicts. This is not the case at present.

As a society we will not overcome the drugs problem unless we devise, resource and implement a comprehensive national plan covering education, law enforcement, legislative improvement and treatment. Because of the complexity and extent of the problem the establishment of a highly resourced administrative centre in the Department of Justice to co-ordinate the various aspects of the anti-drug campaign would be justified. Success will come about only as a result of the vigorous pursuit of such a co-ordinated programme and the intensive monitoring and fine tuning of its various operational aspects.

Members of a sub-committee of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security visited Cork last Friday. This gave Members, particularly those from outside Cork, an opportunity to see the problem on the ground. We met Fr. Kelly, the curate in Blackpool, who is doing excellent work in schools trying to discourage young people from becoming involved in drugs. We also met the State solicitor, Barry Galvin, whom I compliment on speaking out against drugs and putting himself on the line with the drug barons and dealers in Cork. The efforts of Mr. Galvin and the gardaí to bring people to justice through prosecution are being frustrated and this must be addressed. I do not have time to go into the details of some of the points made by Mr. Galvin but he needs our support. The recent efforts of the gardaí and Mr. Galvin have proved successful. We also met Inspector Callaghan and Sergeant Michael Fitzpatrick of the Drug Squad who outlined the successes of the gardaí, but there is no doubt additional resources are required to allow them continue their good work. We then visited the Rock Foundation which was the highlight of our visit. This centre was set up by Fr. Rock to help the many young people in Cork who are homeless or disadvantaged. A total of 127 boys and girls between the ages of 12 and 18 are being catered for by the foundation. The centre is a blueprint for the rest of the country because it operates on a shoestring and must raise much of its finance. Will the Minister of State, Deputy Coveney take a particular interest in this centre which is the only drug unit that caters for adolescents? We visited the centre last Friday and it was heart warming to hear boys who had been involved in serious crime, drug abuse and joy riding talk openly and convincingly about their problems. The centre, which caters for 127 boys, has a bakery, restaurant and a stall in the market. It does tremendous work but the vast majority of people are not aware of this. We need to look closely at the successful work being carried out by the centre.

Last Tuesday night's "Prime Time" television programme highlighted the serious problem in Cork. We know there is a problem in Dublin but there is also a problem in Cork which needs to be addressed. Some people on the programme stated they were not involved in the drugs trade but everyone in Cork knows otherwise. We cannot allow these people to enjoy high standards of living and own massive homes. It is time the Revenue Commissioners took them on. The State Solicitor in Cork recently started this process and we must ensure that these efforts are continued.

When we visited Cork Prison we saw the efforts being made to prevent drugs being brought into prisoners. This initiative has proven very successful. The DARE programme which is operated in some parts of the United States and Sweden educates young people about drugs and seeks to convince them not to use them. This is another programme which must be looked at.

I am sorry that the Government did not see fit to accept Deputy O'Donoghue's recent Bill but I am glad the Minister has belatedly responded to this very serious problem. The major problem facing us is law and order which is being adversely affected by the drugs problem. If we do not tackle this problem at source and educate young people it will spiral out of control. The problem can be dealt with if the necessary resources are made available and the various agencies adopt a co-ordinated approach to it. The public want legislators to give every assistance possible to the people dealing with the problem at the coal face. I welcome the Bill.

Ms F. Fitzgerald

I wish to share my time with Deputies Mulvihill and Kemmy.

Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Ryan)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ms F. Fitzgerald

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Drug addiction and abuse is an international problem and we are feeling the effects of it as much as any other country. We are not immune from the international drug trade, as was clearly illustrated on the "Prime Time" television programme last Tuesday. This highlights the need for strong international organisations and co-operation between countries. Until such time as we attack the economies which depend on the export of drugs we will not be able effectively to tackle the drug problem. This is not being done effectively at international level. As long as drugs can be exported from Middle and Far Eastern countries with impunity then we will not be able to deal with the problem. This is one of the reasons we need a strong United Nations and co-operation at EU level. I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment that the drugs problem will be discussed at the International Conference and further efforts will be made to work out co-operative international strategies. This is the first level at which we must deal with the problem of drug addiction and abuse.

Many speakers referred to the huge human cost in societies where drugs are freely available and I have seen evidence of this in my constitutency. I am concerned about some of the provisions in the Bill but I am equally concerned about a problem highlighted by one of my constituents who told me 11-year-old children in the flats complex where she lives act as dealers and have mobile phones. That is the reality of life for some 11-year-old children in the inner city who face a future of addiction, a shorter life expectancy and horrific problems, including the possibility of AIDS and prison sentences. At any one time 40 per cent of the prison population has a background in drug abuse. Many prisons encounter serious difficulties in managing drug use among prisoners. People ask how this can happen but it is very difficult to control this problem.

I am concerned about the increased powers of detention but I support the Bill. It is an indication of the seriousness of the problem that many Deputies who are concerned about the need to strike a balance between increased legal and Garda powers and the protection of human rights support the Bill. I am pleased the Minister referred to the need to build in safeguards and to ensure that the legislation is monitored and is not in conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights. This is extremely important as one cannot overemphasise the problems of abuse. We must provide the necessary supports and training for the Garda who deal with the problem at the front line.

The Minister has concluded from her examination that we need to go down this road. This is a reflection of the seriousness of the problem and how out of control it is. This can be seen in my constituency where there has been a frightening increase in the number of muggings in recent years. This is linked to the heroin problem in that addicts who desperately need to feed their habit rob people of their money. I hope the recently announced methadone maintenance programme will help solve this problem. International evidence suggests that the development of a strong methadone maintenance programme decreases the anti-social behaviour of addicts and reduces the level of crime. I hope the programme will have the same effect here. Obviously we must ensure that the programme is not abused and that a black market does not develop in this area.

The measures introduced by the Minister tackle the problem at one level only and we must deal with it at a number of other levels. For example, we must educate very young children about the dangers of drugs. Young adolescents take risks and we must teach them about the consequences of some of these risks. We ask teachers to do many things and I welcome their increased commitment to help young people understand these dangers.

We must provide separate services for adolescents experimenting with drugs, who cannot be treated in the same facilities as hardened addicts and criminals. We must also provide freephone numbers which can be used by teenagers who are experimenting with drugs. Teenagers tend to portray a hard front and are reluctant to admit they have problems and we must make it easy for them to have access to help. We must deal with the problem at an educational, medical and justice level. To succeed we must dovetail all these different approaches and work well together.

Mr. Mulvihill

I thank Deputy Fitzgerald for sharing her time with me. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate on the growing problem of drug trafficking which is of great concern to everybody, inside and outside this House. I agree with the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, who said recently that the spread of illegal drugs is a threat to the fabric of society. It is a problem not exclusive to urban areas and is common in many rural areas.

I welcome the introduction of this Bill by the Minister for Justice as part of a comprehensive anti-drugs package which the Government announced last year. I urge her to ensure that this critical legislation is updated and modernised in future to keep ahead of the drug barons and dealers who seem to find new ways to defy the law. The measures to detain people suspected of drug trafficking for up to seven days and the detention of the so-called "stuffers" and "swallowers" will reduce the level of drugs in circulation.

The State has a responsibility and a duty to ensure its citizens are protected from the scourge of drugs and must use every resource in its power to do so. There should be co-operation from all the relevant State agencies who are in the front line fighting against drugs.

The controversy surrounding the drugs seized at Urlingford, County Kilkenny, is a case in point. Since then, there has been charge and counter-charge about the role the Garda and Customs played in that operation. Indeed, it has been suggested in some quarters that the operation was undermined by a turf war of sorts between the Garda and Customs. This feud needs to be sorted out quickly. The State must adopt a united approach to the drugs problem and the Minister for Justice must sort out these disagreements as it is clear the current difficulties must be resolved without delay. This could be achieved through the establishment of one agency, such as an anti-drugs taskforce, which should be given the necessary powers and resources to work with existing agencies in the fight against drugs.

As a public representative from east Cork, I represent a part of the country which contains some of the most rugged sections of the State's coastline. Because of its craggy nature, the coastline around this part of Cork can hamper the authorities in their attempts to stem the flow of drugs and narcotics into the country. Therefore, we should use our lighthouses to watch out for supicious vessels around the coastline. The lighthouses in this area should be staffed by keepers who would be given the responsibility of reporting any suspicious activity to the Garda and naval authorities. Staffed lighthouses would deter drug traffickers and make it more difficult for them to transport drugs.

Similarly, I recommend the reopening of many of the defunct Garda stations which are dotted along the coastline. As our coastline is one to the most rugged and craggy in Western Europe we must help our security forces to make it as secure as possible. I hope this matter can be examined by the drugs strategy team which the Minister set up last year.

We should not be afraid to tackle the drug barons, the people who set up the drug deals and those who transport the drugs from place to place. We must implement harsh measures which are designed to put drug barons behind bars and out of business.

Urban and rural areas are being blighted by drug related crime as the majority of burglaries are carried out by drug abusers trying to feed their habit. This crime wave is a direct result of the work of a small band of drug barons, many of whom are well known to the Garda and public alike, and it seems astonishing that a newspaper can publish a list identifying known drug barons. Many people are asking if a newspaper can publish the identities of these people behind bars? Known drug dealers should be under constant surveillance to catch them in the act. In some cases, drug barons are signing on to claim dole while living in houses worthy of millionaires. The Revenue Commissioners should pursue and question people who cannot account properly for such wealth. If necessary, the Revenue Commissioners should be given the full support of the Garda in the pursuit of drug barons. If we could take these drug barons out of the system, the crime rate throughout the country would be dramatically reduced.

I pay tribute to the Naval Service for its role in stopping drugs from coming into this country. In particular, I want to mention its role in stopping the yacht Brime from landing its drugs haul some years ago. I understand that two people involved in that operation, the captain of the naval ship and the coxswain of the Gemini which transported the boarding party to the yacht, are to receive distinguished service medals. I cannot understand why the other four people who risked their lives will not be decorated for their heroic efforts in detaining that yacht. It does not make sense to decorate two people while four other people, who went on board with arms, will not be honoured. I ask the Minister to take that matter up with the Minister for Defence.

Some of the recent press coverage about the drugs problem in Cobh, County Cork, was blown completely out of proportion. Cobh's drugs problem is no different from the experience of any other town and I urge the press and radio media to bear this in mind when reporting about Cobh, and the drugs problem especially, in future.

I support Deputy Dan Wallace's remarks about Father Rock, who is doing excellent work in Cork with young delinquents who get involved in drugs, etc. He is based in my constituency in east Cork. Any help which the State can give him should be forthcoming immediately because he is doing excellent work for young people who cannot receive treatment in any other part of this country.

I am worried at present by the people in the media seeking the legislation of soft drugs. As Lady Thatcher once said: "Out, out, out". These people should not be given any publicity because one cigarette leads to another. The sooner these people are denied access to the media, and our television screens especially, the better.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Kemmy, you must conclude at 1.03 p.m.

Mr. Kemmy

That is a very short time. I think I drew a short straw on this debate.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy may share some of my time.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Kemmy

I thank you for your benevolence, Acting Chairman.

This is a constructive and important debate. While I would not want to criticise the media for its lack of coverage of the debate as it is entitled to have its own priorities, I thought this debate would have received more generous coverage. This House is often critised — rightly at times — for responding in a sluggish way to crises or for the delay in introducing legislation. Now when we attempt to respond to this issue, the debate is not being reported sufficiently in the media and I am unhappy about it.

There is no doubt that the level of crime has increased throughout society. It is now big business and criminals are tough, audacious and determined. Their self-confidence has grown over the years, they have increased their weaponry from knives to guns and all kinds of weapons are now in use in carrying out crime. We cannot return to the past and wish crime would go away. We must respond in an intelligent way here and do what we can to understand that there is no going back. We are part and parcel of modern society so we must do our best to respond. We must also attempt to tackle the problem at its root and not just tackle the symptoms as we often do.

We must identify the causes of crime and drugs abuse. We heard some fine contributions to this debate this morning. Deputy Deasy made a very thoughtful contribution as did Deputy Mulvihill and Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, to name three whom I heard. They made very positive suggestions to the Minister. I hope when the Bill is passed, we will not just pack our bags and go away and forget about the whole business. It is important that the Minister should take account of what we have said, respond intelligently to our observations and come back to the House to tell us how these measures are working.

As an island we are wide open to importation of drugs. Drugs are also being manufactured here — ecstasy tablets can be made in a small premises such as a garage and enough can be carried around in a suitcase to make a person wealthy for life. We must find out how the drugs are coming in — just saying they are coming in is not good enough. The Garda Síochána, the Customs and Excise, the Navy and the Army must identify the routes by which drugs are coming into the country, the kind of drugs being used, and who are the godfathers behind the drugs trade. All these things have to be documented and tackled in an intelligent way.

We see violent crime all around us. My city of Limerick has never before seen such a spate of killings. How are people getting access to guns? Surely the Garda Síochána can find out how guns are coming into a city like Limerick. They should nip this trade in the bud and arrest the people responsible for selling them. It is not difficult to get guns now in any area. I suppose the IRA campaign in Northern Ireland over the past 25 years has lead to greater availability of guns. Violent crime here has paralleled that in Northern Ireland. The IRA has been involved in killing or shooting drug dealers. That is not acceptable. No matter how reprehensible, no matter how evil these people are, the IRA does not have the right to be judge and jury or to kill them. It is the job of the State to identify the people concerned and to bring them to justice.

We are not the simple, innocent society we once were. We are a modern society, part of the modern information superhighway and we must deal with our problems appropriately.

Many Deputies referred to the need for education. I agree there is a need for education and health care. We must try to educate our young people about the evils of society, including drug taking in the hope that they will respond in a mature way. A remedial backup service is also required and greater involvement by the Minister for Health and local health boards.

With regard to the Urlingford drug seizure I do not know exactly what happened, but I have read the media reports. I would not put anybody's life in danger, particularly a garda's. The Minister and the Garda Síochána must tell us what went wrong without putting lives at risk. I realise the Garda must become involved in a "sting" at times. Nevertheless the Urlingford case has left a bad taste in the mouth. We need to see greater co-operation between the Customs, the Garda and the Navy. In this case we are their masters and they must implement our policies. It is not good enough that there are divisions. There is enough division in the Garda at present without division between the Garda, the Customs and the Navy. What we want is a united and co-ordinated approach to the drugs problem.

On the confiscation of money from drug barons and drug dealers, if somebody without visible means of support is living an opulent and flamboyant lifestyle, has a large house and drives a large car, that person must be getting money from some source. If the Garda Síochána can prove the person is involved in the drug trade, the money should be taken from him. These people are not involved in a teddy bears' picnic and will threaten any official who approaches them. For 20 years Martin Cahill defied the Garda Síochána and officials from the Department of Social Welfare with impunity. That is not good enough. Such people cannot be allowed to disport themselves in public, and live opulent lifestyles. They are bad role models. They are a bad advertisement for the Garda Síochána if they can openly and with impunity be involved in criminal activities and action is not taken against them. It is not good enough either that drugs are sold openly on the streets of Dublin or in the housing estates in Limerick. If the television cameras can film people selling drugs, surely the Garda Síochána could do the same. It is not acceptable that people can buy drugs in some city centre areas of Dublin and that they can be sold with impunity. We cannot allow that to continue. The Garda must be able to curb that and stamp it out.

It is a reflection on us that the trade in drugs and drug consumption has increased. We are an intelligent people, but in our haphazard approach to combating the drugs menace we have not behaved in an intelligent or co-ordinated way. The time has come to do that. All the arms of State must be used to stamp out this trade.

The Government is in earnest, and this Bill is a step forward. It is not perfect but at least it shows concern and that we are trying to do something. Let us come back to the House and monitor its operation after six months and have a further debate to assess how successful these measures have been. The only test is the acid test of whether they work in practice and whether the Garda Síochána have more success in at least arresting the drug trade. The only way legislation can be measured is on whether it is effective in dealing with a problem.

This has been a good debate. Some trenchant points have been made by concerned people in the House. It has received little media coverage, and that is a pity. I would like to see this debate being covered more fully by the media because the public want to know what we are doing about the drug problem. Backbenchers like me are attempting to give some advice and make recommendations to the Minister in an effort to deal with the problem. I hope she will take those on board and I look forward to her coming back to the House and reporting on how these measures have operated over a six-month period. I am grateful to my colleagues, Deputies Ahern and Davern for giving me a few minutes of their time.

Mr. Davern

This is the first Government measure in nearly 14 months to do something about the drug problem. Although I welcome the Bill as a move in the right direction, I am disappointed with it.

I congratulate the ordinary members of the Garda Síochána in my constituency who have been active not only in successfully capturing people selling drugs in the area but who are implementing an educational programme on the problem. I have held several public meetings to which the Garda Síochána have come and exhibited drugs. This was as much an education for me as it was to the members of the public. Those of us who were brought up in the sixties, with flower power and everything else, presumed we knew everything about drugs, but we were ignorant. At that stage it was an urban problem but now it is a countrywide one. I congratulate Tipp FM on its message "Tipp FM Against Drugs".

I agree with the seven day detention period provided for in the Bill. Most people who commit crime are granted bail. The public is horrified that people who commit crime while on bail are given concurrent sentences. Many criminals intimidate witnesses or abscond while on bail. In Dublin recently a person robbed four banks while on bail and received concurrent sentences. Two people being questioned about a murder case in Galway were granted bail and they absconded. Two others were held. Is there a political problem with holding a referendum on bail? Are the Tánaiste, Deputy Spring, and the Minister for Social Welfare and Leader of Democratic Left, Deputy De Rossa, totally against it?

People use the phrase "drug baron" which conjures up an image of someone who is exceptionally powerful. That phrase should not be used but rather "drug trafficker" or "drug peddler". They are peddlers in death and destroy the lives of young people. In the last 18 months 16 young people died from abuse of ecstasy. I am disappointed that a criminal is afforded the right to silence. The European Court of Justice decided recently that the judge may draw an inference from the fact that somebody remains silent during questioning. The person should not be obliged to answer questions but by not doing so the inference should be that they are guilty. The right to silence was introduced at a time when people did not understand the law and were not allowed into the courts. There is a defeatist attitude towards crime and it would help reassure the public if we removed the right to remain silent and improved the bail laws.

I understand the necessary legislation to enable Revenue Commissioners to interrogate suspects was in place. They have a right to know how people obtain money. I watched "Prime Time" on RTÉ and was fascinated to see people who had not been employed for years living in big houses and enjoying high lifestyles. It is amazing that the Revenue Commissioners cannot find out what such people are doing, yet an RTÉ reporter can ascertain taht information and broadcast it on television. No inquires have been made into how a number of people in my area obtain money to build new homes and buy vehicles and properties in other towns.

A section of the Garda tries to play down the drugs problem but it is a reality, as any hardworking member of the Garda is aware. Usually customs officials are the first people to have contact with drug importers. However, they do not have a right to question them unless it is in the presence of a garda. Great credit is due to the Customs and Excise for its tremendous work in detecting drugs landed at various ports, particularly at Rosslare. They should have a right to question suspects without a garda being present. It would make for greater co-operation between that section and the Garda.

It was frightening to see on "Prime Time" the amount of drugs imported. The television programme identified certain people but they were not arrested. Six months ago there was a television programme showing people openly dealing in drugs on the streets in Dublin. No one was arrested. Drug-related crime accounts for 80 per cent of all crimes committed. We do not have a problem with hard drugs in my constituency but we have an increased crime rate, particularly violent crime. I use two legal drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. These can be mixed with other drugs such as cannabis which is seen as a harmless drug. Deputy Bhamjee said it is good for gout and arthritis. However, research has shown that cannabis and hash can cause tremendous damage. The drug that has had the greatest impact in rural Ireland is ecstasy which is manufactured in back rooms and large profits are generated from its sale. The people who deal in ecstasy are, I think, of the lowest type. The television programme "Prime Time" showed many different ecstasy tablets but there was no consistency in the product. What frightens me is the way young people justify using ecstasy; they say everybody is using it but only 16 people have died from it. They see that as an indication that the bulk of ecstasy tablets are all right.

Nobody has educated young people about the long-term effects of using those tablets and the damage they may do to their kidneys, livers and their hearts. It is the inconsistencies in the manufacturing of ecstasy that caused problems. Recently, ecstasy tablets worth £15 million were seized from a back room laboratory in London. Ecstasy is being produced here. When people are caught with tablets they say they are for personal use only. They should have to say where they got the tablets or else face a penalty for using them. Disco promoters are at their wits end trying to prevent ecstasy being distributed on their premises. They search certain people and insist that they empty out their pockets before they are admitted but that is no good if young people have taken the drug before going to the disco. The damage will have been done and the person's behaviour will be the only indicator of having taken ecstasy. There is a serious problem in trying to control the use of ecstasy at discos.

The concept of a rave party is to sell ecstasy. Rave parties have been held in my constituency but nobody was arrested at them. There is a public perception that not enough is being done to counter drugs. What worries me is the increasing violence of young people who have taken a concoction of drink and ecstasy. People empty out of different local discos at the same time and all congregate at the chip van in the town centre. There have been violent clashes and I saw one young person knifed to death. The concoction makes people high and more macho. Anyone would have pity for a member of the Garda Síochána trying to arrest someone on drugs. Those people are in cloud-cuckoo-land and it is almost impossible to deal with them.

Education has a major role to play in combating the drugs scene. We need to educate everyone properly and ensure that those leaving primary school can read and write so that they at least have some chance. The Department has made an attempt to do this by allocating remedial teachers or giving extra resources to schools in disadvantaged areas but we need to do more. This is evident not just in the city but in my rural constituency where what was traditionally a rural school is seriously disadvantaged by insufficient resources. Some young people are disillusioned with life, feel that life has dealt them a bad hand and feel the necessity to turn to drugs. Every Member should attend a drugs seminar organised by the Garda Síochána. It would be no harm if the Minister were to insist that Members be briefed on the abuse of drugs. I have been fighting against drugs for a number of years and I realise that it is necessary to keep up to date with the new cocktails.

Will the Minister seriously consider changing the bail laws? This is very important because people are losing confidence in this House and in the Garda Síochána. The bail laws have lowered morale in the Garda Síochána. The courts should take an inference from the fact that a person would not co-operate with a member of the Garda Síochána and remained silent during questioning. Anyone who is accused of a crime he did not commit will not want to remain silent. The right to silence is based on a 17th century peasant concept but now everybody has the right to speak up for himself and only those who are guilty will prefer to remain silent rather than indict themselves. If they remain silent the court must take that into account. Every support must be given to the Garda Síochána, to the court system and, above all, to the parents of potential victims. Recently a lady on "Morning Ireland" told how she has lost three children already and expects to lose another one this year and perhaps another the year after through serious heroin taking. That was the greatest indictment of Dáil Éireann and of our society. There must be stiffer penalties and, above all, the public has to co-operate with the Garda Síochána to help in the fight against crime. If we do not change the law, the gardaí will not succeed. We must enact laws that enable them to be dedicated to their work.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

This is one of the most important Bills brought before the House. I agree with Deputy Kemmy's remarks on the lack of media interest in the passage of this Bill. It is amazing that the media has been captivated by the lifestyle, profiteering, deceit and successful escape attempts by drug barons. It is difficult to reconcile the number of column inches dedicated in the Sunday newspapers to the successful lifestyle of such people with the media's lack of focus on this Bill. It speaks volumns that the deed is more interesting than the tremendous efforts being made by the vast majority of Members to try to find some solution to this appalling problem.

It would be helpful if the public were briefed on the provisions of this Bill which is one of the strongest anti-crime measures ever introduced. Some think the Bill goes too far but others think it does not go far enough. We must work within certain limits because under the Constitution we must recognise the freedom of the individual and people's liberties.

The measures introduced in this Bill are a step in the right direction, the only step taken in the past number of years. Listening to some of the Opposition speakers, one would think that bail was not granted when Fianna Fáil was in office or that the right to silence was introduced only 14 months ago. Some Deputies develop a passion for issues once they are out of office but they fail to show similar passion when in office. Miracles are expected to happen once there is a change of Government, yet these issues were not dealt with during the past seven years. This shows insincerity. It would be better if people admitted it is a difficult problem to solve and that any Government, irrespective of its composition, must examine the matter carefully to find solutions. The problem will not be solved by people pleading for it to be addressed.

The Minister has not ruled out changes in the bail laws or further examination of how to exploit every opportunity to suppress the drugs problem. We must be positive about this legislation. No Bill has ever satisfied everyone. This is a positive step by the Minister for Justice and she should be supported. Once these measures are put into effect, she will be able to devote her attention to other issues such as the right to silence and bail.

Drugs are one of the gravest threats to our society. The deadly drugs trade, which must be wiped out, knows no boundaries. It used to be an urban problem, but it is now also in rural communities. It is not confined to a certain class; if affects all sectors of our society. Many victims are young people. If the drugs trade was not as profitable, the problem would not have escalated to such an extent. Once people are affected by drugs, they will do anything or pay any price to feed their habit. The drug barons are reaping the rewards and they do not feel guilty about the effect drugs will have on their innocent victims. They are only interested in profits. They will enjoy a lavish lifestyle with the money they make from those whose lives are destroyed.

Even the dogs in the street know who the drug barons are. We read stories in the newspapers about their lifestyle, yet they are free to continue their illegal trade. We must ask ourselves why people who commit crime are not behind bars. I understand it is difficult to catch these people committing a crime, but surely our system can be improved so that we can put them behind bars. We must solve this problem because as long as drug barons are at large drugs will be imported and innocent victims will pay.

The Bill is a comprehensive anti-drug package which will help to curb the problem. Persons suspected of drug trafficking offences can now be detained for a maximum of seven days. That is welcome because we must give the Garda and those involved time to investigate suspects. Up to now the amount of time the Garda could keep a person in detention was limited and this meant that people who could have been proven guilty were allowed to walk free. The Bill also provides that further periods of detention after the first 48 hours may be authorised by a court before whom the person detained must be brought. It also provides that persons arrested for a drug trafficking offence, where it is suspected that they concealed drugs on their person, can be taken into detention. We must allow the Garda to make urgent decisions.

Time is of the essence in cases such as this. An important section of the Bill allows members of the Garda Síochána, not below superintendent rank, to issue search warrants in drug trafficking cases where they are urgently required. A delay in proceeding with a case often benefits a suspect. Frequently suspects who drag matters out can walk free following a lapse of time.

An important section of the Bill deals with the role played by customs officers in dealing with the drug-related crime. It provides that they will be allowed to question suspects detained by the gardaí on drug trafficking offences. The Bill seeks to ensure that a unified approach will be adopted to tackling the problem. The Bill encourages co-operation among all those at any level who deal with the drugs problem.

There are many more provisions we would like included in the Bill, but we must proceed step by step. Until now the Garda did not have sufficient resources or powers to deal with the reality of the problem. If we are to succeed in the fight against the drugs menace — it is not an easy one — it is essential that we, as legislators, at all times give the Garda the necessary powers to deal with the reality of the drugs problem. By giving the Garda, who to date have done a great job in difficult circumstances, these powers, I hope the drug barons will be isolated and removed from society.

I do not apologise to anybody for the harsh measures contained in the Bill. When dealing with a serious problem we must have the courage to deal with it harshly. In the long run we are being cruel to be kind. If we succeed in stamping out the importation of drugs and in isolating drug traffickers, we will have some hope of saving a potentially innocent victim from getting caught up in the drugs scene.

We should consider ways to encourage young people to have the courage to tell their parents and the gardaí of their experiences of drugs activity. As a former teacher and a parent I find teenagers are willing to confirm they were offered drugs in town or in discos, but are fearful of disclosing information on where or who offered them drugs. They know the lanes, streets and alleyways where such drugs activity occurs, but are motivated by fear that they will suffer if they disclose such information and, unfortunately, that may be the case. Students should be encouraged in schools to report their experiences of where and at what time they saw drugs activity in their towns or communities or who offered them drugs. This information is needed, but the young people who have it are fearful of divulging it to the authorities.

We accept that a lack of education is the root of the problem, but what are we doing within the education system to prevent people abusing drugs or to give them the confidence and courage to make a decision that they will not become ensnared in the drugs scene? Little, if any, time is devoted to this important education for life in the school curriculum. Not sufficient courses or opportunities are available to teachers to ensure they are sufficiently conscious and concerned about this important issue. Their time is taken up with teaching the school curriculum which is geared towards examinations. Much more could be done within the education system to address this matter and a positive worthwhile effort should be made to do that not only at secondary, but at primary level. Teachers should be able to attend appropriate courses and part of the school curriculum should be devoted to education for life. Many teachers, like many parents, have never seen drugs and, therefore, would not recognise them. How can they be expected to teach a successful course or convince young people not to become ensnared in the drugs scene when they do not have sufficient information?

We should also concentrate on the enormous cost posed by the drugs menace, not only in money terms, but in terms of health, misery and despair. It has involved costs for many hospitals which have had to set up drug units to treat addicts. It also involves costs in terms of security and prison places. The cost to this or any other State posed by the drugs menace is frightening. We are familiar with pie charts which display public spending divided among social welfare, health, education and other areas, but I am sure we would be alarmed by the amount of the public spending devoted to dealing with the drugs problem.

I welcome the Bill. It is one of the most important to come before the House because it deals with one of the greatest problems facing society. I congratulate the Minister on introducing it and I urge all parties in this House to co-operate in dealing with it. It is important that all Members' views are noted in a positive manner and given in a co-operative one so that, together, we can make an impact in dealing with the drugs crisis.

Mr. Callely

The introduction of this long promised Bill provides the Garda with major additional powers, mainly in the detention of suspects on drug trafficking offences for a period ranging from 12 hours up to 14 days.

The previous speaker referred to Fianna Fáil's role in Government during the last number of years. She indicated that there was inactivity on its part in dealing with drug trafficking. Legislation dealing with the confiscation of assets introduced by the previous Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, provides the Minister with ample powers to assist her in dealing with this problem, but she has not done much about it. As recently as two or three months ago I attended a meeting of concerned residents in the Coolock area on drug abuse. Deputy Ahearn referred to the need to educate our young people on this matter, particularly in schools. I made representations to the Minister for Education to put in place an education programme in Coolock, but I received a negative response, which is sad and disgraceful. If Deputy Ahearn wants me to go down the avenue she explored about Fianna Fáil's input to this area I will be happy to do so. Some aspects of her contribution were wide of the mark.

It has proven extremely difficult to successfully prosecute those involved in illegal drug trafficking. I congratulate and salute those who work at the front line in the Garda Síochana and Customs service for the confiscations to date. I will not refer to the famous Urlingford case, known as the sting, because it has been debated sufficiently in this House. Our geographic position as an island nation close to the European base makes it easy for highly organised and sophisticated drug lords to operate the illegal drug trade. They blatantly abuse the Garda and Customs service who have a difficult job policing our coastline.

We must question why drug abuse has exploded in the past decade. It is recognised that people get a kick out of drug use. In the past 20 years there have been changing trends in drug use. The present trend at rave discos is the use of the E tablet — I am sure in time that will be superseded by a more fashionable drug. The explosion in the use of drugs is associated with financial gain. Huge profits are made from drug smuggling and drug pushing by drug lords who operate behind the scene. That matter must be tackled. I referred earlier to the confiscation of assets. Under section 44 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1992, the Minister has power to freeze assets and drugs.

Drug abuse is a major threat to society. We are all aware of the knock-on effect of such abuse on communities. The crime wave which results from drug abuse must be addressed. There is genuine concern about the increase in vicious drug-related offences involving violence. It is incumbent on this House to find a solution so that confidence will be restored. We have a huge young population who are targets for drug abuse. Because of the hardship suffered by individuals and families as a result of drug abuse, this issue must be tackled immediately.

I am not afraid to put on record that in the past I issued constituency newsletters on this matter, one of which, issued in the summer of 1995 and headed Let the Punishment Fit the Crime, received a huge response. In that newsletter I indicated that it was time to play hard ball with crime, that we have suffered enough and that for far too long innocent people, particularly in Dublin, have put up with gurriers and "druggies". Robberies and assaults have become part and parcel of Dublin life and must be stopped. The Garda and others in authority deserve our full support. It is time to take the gloves off and deal with this problem.

In my newsletter I outlined measures that must be taken to deal with drug abuse. For example, resources must be provided to combat the problem of drugs and drug-related crime. Sentencing, early release and prison places must be considered and bail laws must be toughened. A number of speakers dealt with the bail issue. The Minister indicated by way of the national television network that within a matter of weeks or months she would hold a referendum on bail, but regrettably she has not met that commitment. Perhaps the proposal is still under consideration at Cabinet and people are afraid to make a decision on it. I received immense feedback from my newsletter on the bail issue, which is an indication that people favour the introduction of radical measures.

Other issues that must be considered include an increase in garda presence in city streets and residential areas, support services must be visible and community policing must be developed, with communities working with the Garda, neighbourhood watch programmes and liaison committees to assist in the prevention of crime. We must introduce whatever measures are necessary to deal with the escalation of crime. In my newsletter I indicated that the escalation in drug-related crime must be addressed. There are no easy solutions. Radical measures are required and I am prepared to lead the debate to address this issue. This is one area in which initiative and action must be taken to make real progress.

I was surprised at the huge response to the effect that it was time these radical measures were adopted. The radical measures I proposed were, a mandatory minimum sentence of ten years in the case of drug barons and pushers, rehabilitation of drug addicts to reduce the demand for such drugs, improvement of our educational and detoxification facilities, and encouragement of registration of addicts and greater control of drugs.

In the course of the debate that followed the publication of my newsletter I specified that the overall objective was to eliminate financial gain from trafficking in drugs in the firm belief that there is no other method by which we can tackle the problem head on. We must persuade known drug addicts to register, and give them the drugs they require freely until we are in a position to detoxify and rehabilitate them out of their usage. While many such addicts want to come off drugs there are not sufficient detoxification or rehabilitative facilities available at present.

By giving addicts the drug of their choice freely we would be removing the financial gain from the marketplace thus lessening the incentive to import or smuggle them into this country. I can assure the House that the absentee drug lords who rest on their laurels and enjoy huge financial gain from their activities, would not continue to do so for very long were that financial gain eliminated from the marketplace.

I have no doubt that using taxpayers' money for the purchase of illegal substances would be a matter of considerable concern to society generally but, if we implemented a harnessed, properly targeted short-term programme to address this problem in the long term we would have a much healthier society.

The number of drug addicts, regrettably, remains unknown. Before attempting to address this huge problem, we should know the exact figure. While there are estimates of the numbers involved in the drugs scene, and of waiting lists for rehabilitative facilities and drugs substitution programmes, I suggest my proposal for their registration would highlight the precise numbers involved and identify the appropriate approach to be adopted in tackling the problem.

I want to refer also to abuses of the present system. I visited Mountjoy Prison and spoke to its Governor on the matter of abuse of drugs there. While some three to five months ago the Minister for Justice promised to address this matter and devise a suitable package for its remedy, to date nothing has been done. Whenever drug abuse is identified in Mountjoy or any other prison, it must be tackled head on by prohibiting all prison visits if such are perceived to be the cause. The Minister does not need to await any additional reports on this issue. We have sufficient in-house surveys to hand, we know there is a disgraceful abuse of drugs in that detention centre. It is wrong that the Governor who readily admits that there is drug abuse there is afraid to take what he described as draconian measures to tackle it. There is always the way out for those who find it too hot in the kitchen. If the Governor is not prepared to take the necessary corrective measures to address the problem in his prison, he, and, indeed, the Minister, must acknowledge that the problem will continue.

A doctor who practises in my constituency in the course of a letter to me stated:

I was particularly interested in the question put forward by you to the Minister for Health re. drug addiction. I am a prison doctor, in a female prison, and I am dismayed at the extent of heroin abuse in Dublin city and in the prison; it seems to be escalating at an enormous rate. Unfortunately, space is very limited, drug addicts are released early on temporary release without finishing a fraction of their sentences and before drug detoxification is complete. No wonder they are back out reoffending.

That doctor has his finger on the pulse of the problem.

Mr. E. Byrne

Where was that doctor for the past ten years if he has only now discovered that problem? He must be a contract doctor only in Mountjoy who prescribes methadone. Would the Deputy put his name on the record?

Mr. Callely

We are aware also of genuine concern at the availability of methadone to addicts at satellite clinics which do not appear to be run very efficiently. There are many "hangers-on" outside these clinics.

I had discussions recently with a voluntary group engaged in the implementation of a drugs programme in my constituency for addicts, already detoxified. Those addicts take part in the programme for three months for rehabilitative purposes, and receive the necessary confidence to reintegrate in society. I was assured by those involved in that programme, including the Garda, that it is very efficient and that most of its participants have been rehabilitated. I pay tribute to those involved in the delivery of that service. I have no difficulty with such a service, if operated properly, but I am concerned about satellite clinics and the suggestion of enlisting general practitioners under the GMS to provide such a service. If that suggestion is adopted young and old will be waiting in doctors' surgeries with drug addicts whose behaviour will be dictated by the substances to which they are addicted.

Will the Minister include a provision in the Bill for a detained person to be informed within the time limit of the reason for their detention to give them an opportunity to consider their position and say what legal advice, if any, will be made available to them and if there will be a right of appeal?

Mr. E. Byrne

I had not intended to contribute to this debate as I had an important appointment concerning the issue of drug abuse and treatment services for addicts. I was provoked into coming by the contributions of the leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Ahern, and Deputies O'Donnell and McDowell of the Progressive Democrats.

I represent Dublin South Central which has a major drugs problem. Unemployment and drug abuse are the two major problems facing this country and, unfortunately, both are linked. I am conscious of developments in the south inner city of Dublin where drug abuse is endemic and many people have died of AIDS. Of the 7,000 reputed addicts in the city, approximately 1,000 live in the Dublin 8 area of my constituency which is also involved in the treatment centres controversy.

I am acutely aware of the struggle to rebuild a sense of community in the most deprived inner city flat complexes given the obstacles faced by the people living in them. It is because of my admiration for honest, hard working citizens living in deplorable conditions particularly the flat complexes in the south inner city, that I have come into this House specifically to castigate the leader of Fianna Fáil and Deputies O'Donnell and McDowell of the Progressive Democrats for their outrageous attack and political correctness vis-á-vis the Urlingford drugs seizure.

I am critical of aspects of the Garda Síochána policing but in regard to the exercise by the Garda at Urlingford, it is crucially important that the message going out from this House is not one of condemnation or cheap political sniggering at the failure of the Garda to make an arrest. I want the Garda to know that I applaud their adventurous but unsuccessful operation.

Mr. Callely

What hypocrisy.

Mr. E. Byrne

It is unfortunate that the people targeted were not apprehended.

Mr. Callely

Deputy Byrne should talk about his own party leader. He has a record and he is known by some of the people about whom the Deputy is talking.

Acting Chairman (Mr. T. Foxe)

Silence, Deputy.

Mr. E. Byrne

I understand approximately £20 million of gangsters' money went up in smoke in an ESB sub-station. I ask the Garda to listen to politicians in this House who support them in their efforts to develop new strategies to apprehend that most dangerous element in our society, the drug barons. Unfortunately, to date they have been ineffectual in putting these people behind bars but the Garda should now be applauded——

Mr. Callely

Deputy Byrne did not applaud them until he got his mercs and perks.

Mr. E. Byrne

——for their efforts in developing new strategies and tactics.

Mr. Callely

Deputy Byrne was engaged in a few operations.

Acting Chairman

Please desist, Deputy Callely.

Mr. E. Byrne

What disgusts me most about the Progressive Democrats is that they are so politically correct. They think, in their academic contributions, they can dismiss the Garda suggestions that lives are in danger. It is unforgivable for the Progressive Democrats to dismiss that fear.

Mr. Callely

The Deputy put plenty of fear in people in his day.

Mr. E. Byrne

Deputy Michael McDowell, who was elected to represent one of the more deprived areas of his constituency in the south inner city, knows the type of ruthless gangsters that evaded arrest at Urlingford. He knows the havoc and the human misery they have wreaked on drug addicts, their families and victims and the sense of community that has been shattered in parts of the inner city. Deputies McDowell and O'Donnell are clearly recipients of leaks from the Garda Síochána but they should use that information in a balanced way. It is important that leaked information is not divulged.

Mr. Callely

What about the information that would rock this State to its foundations? We did not see that evidence. That was a sensitive time in the history of the Dáil.

Mr. E. Byrne

The Garda should be applauded on this occasion for having stung some of the drug barons and deprived them not only of the drugs but the huge amounts of money paid for them.

I support this important Bill designed to target the drug barons but I ask the Minister to monitor it closely — I realise it will be reviewed in 12 months — to ensure it is not abused to target the so-called stuffers and swallowers. There is an inherent contradiction in the Bill in that the drug barons are not the people who stuff quantities of drugs into their rectums or swallow condoms full of heroin. That is done by the ignorant donkeys, usually drug addicts, who owe money to their masters.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should be more careful in the words he uses when referring to people. They may be drug addicts but they are human beings.

Mr. E. Byrne

The term "donkey" is well established.

Acting Chairman

I understand that in its proper place, Deputy.

Mr. E. Byrne

A person who conceals drugs in his or her rectum is known in the drugs trade as a donkey. Perhaps if you spend a few months with me in my clinics in Dublin South Central you will get to know the language.

Will this legislation be used simply to target people who arrive at air or sea ports with drugs from the United Kingdom or Amsterdam? I agree they should be apprehended but a seven day detention period is not necessary. I hope after 12 months the drug barons, who are supposedly the target of this legislation, will be apprehended.

I want to refer to the outrageous suggestion by my Fine Gael colleague, Deputy McGahon, that drug barons should be shot. When Deputy McGahon makes such statements——

Mr. Callely

People who were not drug barons were shot by some of the Deputy's colleagues.

Mr. E. Byrne

——we know he does not mean the Garda Síochána should shoot suspected drug barons. What worries me most about that remark from Deputy McGahon — who should know better — is that he has a clear position on IRA gunmen when it comes to Northern Ireland. I condemn his remarks out of hand because no sooner had he issued the call to shoot drug barons than people reputedly involved in the drugs trade were and are being shot in my constituency. I would like to ask Deputy McGahon one direct question. If the forces of the State will not do the shooting, who was he calling on to do it? We see that the IRA names the top 40 dealers on a death list. It is sadly ironic that Deputy McGahon who fought IRA terrorism in such an honourable way, should now make statements that give support to the Provisional IRA's death list.

The reason I take this personally is that in my constituency a number of people involved in the drugs trade were murdered. Recently, two people — known as the Viper and the Gantly — were shot in my constituency. It is not proper that a message should go out from this parliament from Deputy McGahon that those who are armed should be encouraged to shoot people on the streets. I do not mind when people die of natural causes, particularly drug dealers, but I do not want my innocent constituents to be caught in the crossfire. There is likely to be crossfire because there is a crisis in some communities between their continuing to work with the Garda Síochána and the counter demand and pressure on them work with the vigilantes with republican paramilitary support. I know where I stand in the struggle, on the side of understanding and sympathising with those residents whose lives have been wrecked in seeking solutions to the problem of drug addiction in their estates. Today's issue of The Irish Times points out that a drug dealer, another constituent of mine, the same person who was initialled in the star list of 40 as GK has been sentenced to four years. Which route does Deputy McGahon wish to take? Is it to support the shooting of drug dealers or drug barons or to respect and empower the Garda Síochána to go after these same drug dealers on the so-called dealth list of the IRA and put them behind bars where they are supposed to be?

I emphasise my extreme concern that communities in inner city flat complexes of about 360 flats, comprising in excess of 1,000 people, well known in the national media, are in crisis. The difficulty for them is which agency will resolve their crisis. Daily, the children go down the steps which have obvious signs of tinfoil having been used for smoking cocaine, vomit, excrement and occasionally a discarded needle. This is the reality for young children who are being sent to the local schools. Instead of their lifestyle being improved they see drug barons, drug dealers and drug addicts growing in numerical strength and taking over and influencing the direction and running of flat complexes.

I appeal to the Minister for Justice to recognise that while these people do not represent an anti-Garda Síochána philosophy, they are easily seduced into the quick fix solutions being offered to them. Sadly, we are on the threshold of major disturbances in our inner city. I appeal to the Minister to develop within the Garda Síochána, in the local stations — Kevin Street or Kilmainham — a team of professional gardaí who understand the frustrations of the tenants and sympathise with them in their dilemma. The Garda must reassure the tenants that they are the arm of the State and capable of making the arrests that these people are demanding. They should also reassure the people there that the Garda Síochána are not just using their flat complexes to observe the activities of the runners on behalf of the dealers. These people have a right to the peaceful enjoyment of their lives.

It is not easy to convince people that the State is interested in them and wishes to protect them when, day in day out they see people injecting their veins and drug dealing and former tenants of the flat complexes moving into £100,000 houses less than half a mile away. They see this but as a State we have not managed the problem. Very soon we are likely to lose the battle for the minds and souls of these people. If we lose that battle we will have to deal with another more complicated and more difficult set of agents who are ready to fill the vacuum.

Mr. Creed

This welcome legislation forms part of a comprehensive necklace of initiatives by the Government to combat the smuggling of drugs. For too long many observers and commentators felt this was an international problem and that Ireland would escape it or, that if it did arrive, it would be in large urban conurbations and not an all-Ireland, urban and rural, problem, but it has well and truly exploded. It is a problem in every city, town, village and parish. It will require the co-ordinated efforts of the State, the Garda, health and education systems, parents, teachers and individuals all working together to ensure the problem does not escalate and that there will be no further victims. It is a pity that recent debates on this issue have been hijacked in a desire to generate publicity and exploit media opportunities regardless of the consequences.

Debate adjourned.