Séamus Hughes
Ceist:17 Mr. Hughes asked the Minister for Justice the date on which she asked her Department to take such steps as are necessary to facilitate a debate on crime by preparing a discussion paper on crime. [7056/96]
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers - Discussion Paper on Crime.
I announced in the House on 21 February 1996 in reply to a parliamentary question that my Department was preparing a discussion paper on crime. The Deputy will appreciate that my Department is involved in a continuour review of strategies to combat crime and of measures to deal with the modern crime problem and I am in constant contact with my officials on these issues. I decided late last year that the Department should prepare for publication a paper which would deal with the crime problem in all its multidimensional aspects to encourage an informed debate on this very serious issue. I communicated that decision to my officials at that time. I cannot put a precise date on the decision beyond saving that it was late last year. Preparation of the paper is now in hand.
Is the Minister saying she agrees with the calls made by the Garda Commissioner and me, on behalf of Fianna Fáil, for a White Paper on crime and is this what is envisaged?
I asked my Department to publish a paper on crime. I have not called it white, green, yellow, pink or any other colour. I want a discussion paper on crime that will cover all aspects of crime rather than suggestions that it must be dealt with in a multifaceted way, an interesting debating point. No Government has practically considered dealing with crime in a multifaceted way. I want this crime paper to be put into the public arena to enable it be discussed by people in all walks of life, including commercial groups, rural communities, women's groups, youth groups and all those who have an input in tackling the sources of crime and criminal activity.
Will the Minister ensure that the Department of Education will be involved in this and have an input into a White Paper on crime so that people will not be in any doubt that some detention places are not under the remit of the Department of Justice?
The Deputy can be assured that the Department of Education and other relevant Departments will be asked to make an input into this crime paper and report on it. The issues he raises in his questions about those places of detention for which I do not have responsibility were very much part of the consideration in the preparation of the juvenile justice legislation which involves the three relevant Departments and is with the Attorney General at present.
Will the Minister agree that she got sound advice yesterday from the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors that instead of producing one large document which will attempt to cover the ramifications of crime and deal with it, to use the appalling phrase, in a multifaceted way, it would be more to the point if each area were considered in depth by people conversant with it? Does she not consider a criminal justice commission headed in the manner suggested by the president of the AGSI yesterday, which she summarily dismissed, is what is needed? Will she reconsider her curt dismissal of that proposal in view of the fact that I, as one who has worked in the criminal justice system for many years, consider it an intellectual and administrative slum which is a disgrace in many respects?
If the Deputy, who has far more experience of working in the criminal justice system as a practitioner than I, felt that way about it, one wonders why, when his party was in Government and his former leader was Minister for Justice, he did not do more about this system he describes as an intellectual slum. If it is such, it did not happen in the past 12 months nor did it happen as a result of legislation. Many others, including barristers and solicitors, implement the criminal justice system and they all have a role to play. If I were a county registrar or a District Court judge, I would find it insulting to be told by a practising barrister that I was operating and overseeing a system that is an intellectual slum. There is no doubt that the practices in place in the criminal justice system are becoming burdensome and slowing down the process. That is why I set up a working group under Mrs. Justice Susan Denham to examine the possibility of a courts commission to change the way we manage the courts and other aspects of the criminal justice system.
The establishment of what may be described as a two planked commission was proposed at the AGSI conference, which I was glad to attend and from which I returned for this wonderful Question Time session. It consists of a commission on criminal justice laws and includes an examination of Garda pay and conditions. I do not consider that type of commission is suitable. I indicated I am preparing a paper on crime and I intend to set up a crime policy council which will bring together all the groups concerned. I do not agree Deputy McDowell's point that it is a good idea to focus on crime and criminal justice because through the years Deputies have stated that infants are not born criminals and a child of two is not a criminal, but on reaching the ages of ten, 11 and 12 many of them get involved in criminal activity. We must target children to ensure that they do not become tenants in our prisons. The Deputy's colleague. Deputy Quill, raised the targeting of those likely to become involved in crime at a much earlier age. It is time we considered this problem in a broader way.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——
I am anxious to move on to the next question. We are drifting from the question. Deputy Sargent has tabled questions for which he is patiently awaiting replies. The Deputy should not hog Question Time.
I am fairly within the remit of the question which deals with fostering a debate on crime by preparing a discussion paper on it. There is nothing demeaning to a member of the Judiciary, a county registrar, a court clerk, gardaí, barristers or anybody else in describing a spade as a spade. Our system of criminal justice is an intellectual and administrative slum of which we, collectively, should be ashamed.
Does the Deputy have a question?
There was a misinterpretation. Will the Minister agree that most people want deeply thought out but competent reports composed by people who know what they are talking about instead of waffly, holistic, candyfloss, philosophical treatises on the problem of crime? They want improvements now. Will the Minister agree that one can be tough on the causes of crime and on criminal law reform and that one part of the agenda should not be postponed as an alternative to addressing another part of it?
The Deputy has now insulted many others who have taken part in holistic-type committees and study groups. At present a group is examining sexual crimes, how they relate to women and how the courts treat women who have been the subject of such crime. They are not a candyfloss group of people nor will the report they will produce be candyfloss or rubbish. The Deputy has managed in one fell swoop to more or less condemn anybody who has taken part in the preparation of a report.
The Government's programme for criminal law reform is not being put on hold to enable this discussion paper give rise to a debate on crime. I do not know why other Ministers did not prepare a comprehensive paper on crime as it has existed since the foundation of the State and before it. I am preparing such a paper and it will be put into the public arena as quickly as possible to allow a debate on crime in this House or by way of one of the committees if that is what is decided. I assure the Deputy that I have not been reluctant to discuss these issues. More hours of debate have been devoted to crime than other matters. Some good ideas have emerged and others are what the Deputy would describe as waffly and philosophical. These are useful interventions and I would not like to condemn any Member by describing any suggestion they make as "waffly", "candyfloss" or any of the other pejorative terms used.
Speaking of useful interventions, the leaderships of the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors have in the recent past been extremely critical of the Government's policy on tackling serious crime. Will those associations and the representatives of other Garda ranks be allowed to have an input into the discussion paper on crime which the Minister has asked her Department to formulate?
They most certainly will.