Vol. 464 No. 8
5 Mr. Kenneally asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the procedures in place within his Department to ensure that all Departments are currently implementing the Government's gender balance policy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8848/96]
Each Minister is responsible for implementing the gender balance policy in her or his area.
My Department monitors progress in appointing women to State boards on a regular basis and I am currently examining ways to make the policy more effective.
I am pleased that substantial progress has already been made in relation to gender balance on boards. Women's representation in all appointments, including external nominations from nominating bodies, increased from 15 per cent in 1992 to 25.3 per cent at 1 February 1996 and from 17 per cent to 32.5 per cent of ministerial nominations in the same period.
I thank the Minister for his reply. It appears not anybody in his Department is designated to oversee what might happen in terms of achieving gender balance in other Departments. The issue of gender balance was discussed here previously, particularly on one occasion when the issue of women as secretaries of Departments was discussed. The Government has actively promoted the issue of gender balance, but I question if, at times, it overrides other considerations and if some people may be promoted on the basis of gender rather than merit. Will the Minister comment on that? The Minister referred to the appointment of the new judges, but I wonder if the issue of gender balance rather than the merits of the candidates concerned was taken into consideration?
Deputy Kenneally's question raises complex issues under national and European law and major advances in this area are occurring at European and national levels. Merit is a key factor in terms of promotion, but the Deputy's question relates to the issue of nominations, primarily to State boards.
That is not mentioned in my question.
The Deputy's question referred to gender policy which covers a wide area. The Government's policy in that regard is to attain a minimum representation of 40 per cent women and 40 per cent men on State boards and we are working towards that goal.
It is not just this Government which is hot on this issue; it was also the policy of the previous Government. Progress has been made and I hope to attain the objective during the lifetime of the Government.
Is the Minister satisfied — I accept that one can never be fully satisfied until an objective is achieved — with the progress made in ensuring 40 per cent representation by women on State boards? What is his view on the gender balance at senior level in Departments?
I will not be satisfied until the objective has been attained and we must work towards it. I am not sure to what specifically Deputy Keogh is referring but appointment to a position depends on the number of applicants and who they are. For example, a post could be advertised for which there was no woman applicant. The situation varies from case to case and one has to look at the overall picture. This subject was neglected for many years and there is a huge backlog of imbalance to be worked through. Many factors have adversely affected the involvement of women in the middle and upper management ranges in the public and private sectors. This imbalance must be tackled in many ways and the Employment Equality Bill, which I hope to publish shortly, will address this in large measure. There is also an attitudinal aspect which must be addressed. Both angles have to be taken into account and the Government is attempting to give a lead in this regard by encouraging gender balance and equal opportunities. This is our primary aim rather than preferential positions which may give rise to some difficulties under European law. Equal opportunities are attainable and these are a prime objective of Government policy.
I know negotiations are taking place but does the Minister agree that the embargo on recruitment to the Civil Service where one post in three was filled is a factor in this issue? Will he deal with my earlier question about promotions to judicial positions?
The Deputy is clearly injecting new matter into this question.
Judicial appointments depend on the eligible people. The number of women at the Bar from whom the Judiciary is drawn is considerably smaller than the number of men. The pool from which these appointments are drawn is not, therefore, balanced. I hope there is a move towards equality of opportunity from which the pool could be drawn. The filling of appointments depends on each case but the Government is concerned to ensure that the maximum move is made in that direction, consistent with the vacancies which arise and the qualified applicants.
The Minister said that people are appointed on merit and that women who do not get certain posts may not have the necessary ability. However, my experience is otherwise in that women who have the ability and merit do not seem to be able to get into top positions. This is probably because men usually decide who gets the job. Perhaps the Minister should be looking at the composition of the interview and selection boards. There is probably a general requirement for one woman to be appointed to such boards but consideration should be given to having 40 per cent representation by women on them. Last year in reply to a parliamentary question I was informed that there were 40 women at principal officer level, the key level. If women cannot obtain principal officer posts then they cannot be appointed as assistant secretaries or secretaries. The structures are very important and the Minister should ascertain the inhibiting factors and bring them to the attention of the Government.
This is a complex question and many learned reports analyse why these factors apply. We could spend much time discussing these issues if the Ceann Comhairle allowed us but I am sure he would not. Suffice it to say that the kind of scenario depicted by Deputy Woods whereby a suitably qualified woman does not get a position because she is a woman is totally unacceptable and must not and should not apply. The Employment Equality Bill will be designed in large measure to ensure that this is not acceptable, is regarded as discrimination and is unlawful.
It may be all of those things but that is what happens. The Minister said that the pool of women from which judges are appointed is smaller than the pool of men. Does he agree that even though there are fewer men than women in the educational sphere, amazingly it tends to be men who are promoted? Notwithstanding the long overdue Employment Equality Bill, will the Minister agree that it is within his remit to ensure that the 40 per cent objective is attained in the Civil Service? Women are being prevented from attaining senior positions in the Civil Service for the reasons outlined by Deputy Woods. However, there seems to be a degree of unwillingness to challenge this anomaly, I would like to know whether the Minister can effect change or whether we have to wait for legislation.
The system of appointments in the Civil Service is governed by the appropriate legislation for which the Minister for Finance has overall responsibility. Any questions relating to its detail should be addressed to him, especially if a particular case is involved.
The legislation in place since the mid-1970s governing employment equality and equal treatment is being updated. Provisions will be introduced which will be of assistance, but it is not just a matter of introducing legislation as attitudinal change is required. It also requires determination on the part of women who have been discriminated against, within the meaning of legislation, to do something about it, as many of them do successfully.
The Employment Equality Agency has skilled personnel available who will advise those who care to consult them as to their rights and the remedies. If there has been discrimination, the agency will assist them in having their rights vindicated in the appropriate manner. I urge any woman who feels that she has been discriminated against to consult the agency to obtain its advice and do something about it.
The Minister mentioned the learned books on the subject. If he were to appoint to interview boards some of the many women with experience in business who are very sharp and bright and know what is needed, he would get better results.
I will be happy to convey the Deputy's suggestion to the appropriate authorities.
It is obvious that what is needed is critical mass in terms of the number of women at senior level. A woman who hopes to advance within any organisation does not want to point to legislation to prove her point, rather she wants to be appointed on merit and given an equal chance. The odds, however, are stacked against women. It is disgraceful and outrageous that there are so few women at senior level in the Civil Service which should give a lead. The issue of women as specific role models could be addressed by appointing them to State boards.
A question, please.
This is an important issue. Instead of retreating behind legislation does the Minister accept that he should take a more pro-active approach in securing equality of treatment and opportunity for women, particularly within the Civil Service?
That is precisely what I am doing. I agree with the Deputy that it is important that women should have a role in all the institutions of State, pervading through influential positions on State boards, to build up the critical mass needed. I am working strongly, as is the Government, to achieve this. Let us take the composition of the Legal Aid Board as an example. All the members of the board appointed during the currency of the Progressive Democrats-Fianna Fail Government were men whereas 50 per cent of the new board recently appointed by me are women.
We are and will continue to make progress. The situation is improving as a result of Government action and decision. I will be working with my colleagues in Government to proceed with this rate of improvement to build up the critical mass needed, something successive Governments signally failed to do. Much work remains to be done, but I intend to continue working to achieve progress in this area.
