Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Oct 1996

Vol. 470 No. 6

Beef Industry: Statements (Resumed.)

Mr. Cowen

I welcome the opportunity to debate in greater detail some aspects of this issue which has become a matter of public controversy in an effort to obtain more information.

On 17 October the Minister said that the chief veterinary officer of the Russian Federation, Dr. Avilov, and a delegation of veterinary experts visited Ireland from 7-12 October to review controls. He also said that they completed a comprehensive programme of visits covering meat plants, rendering plants, ports, laboratories and farms. Will the Minister expand on where they went and whom they met during their visits?

Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry (Mr. Yates)

I do not have the absolute details of the itinerary to hand. They were engaged in substantive discussions from Tuesday until Saturday and wanted to see a rendering plant, a slaughtering plant and several meat factories. An Bord Bia was involved in all aspects of the itinerary and we paid the costs. Deputies will recall that we were visited by an Iranian delegation the previous week. One of the groups wanted a herd to be depopulated.

The Russian delegation had a meeting in the veterinary laboratory. This week their permanent representative visited Abbotstown where analysis on the heads is carried out. The delegation also visited a rendering plant and two meat factories and saw a herd being depopulated.

Mr. O'Malley

Earlier today the Minister gave details of the controls on meat and bonemeal he proposes to introduce from next month. Why does he not ban the manufacture and importation of meat and bonemeal? Given that it is perceived as a probable cause of BSE, what is the point of allowing its continued manufacture here? Why not ban it entirely? The regulations are very complex. If farmers and others were prepared to use angel dust when it was illegal, it is very likely that they will use meat and bonemeal even though it is illegal.

Several herds which have had BSE for some months have not been depopulated. Would it not be appropriate to slaughter the herds first and arrange compensation later?

Mr. Yates

On the question of banning meat and bonemeal, it has been banned entirely in Britain. The difficulty is that one devalues the fifth quarter if it is incinerated. We have a ban on feeding meat and bonemeal to ruminants, that is bovine animals, and to ovine animals, that is sheep. I have received an epidemiologist's report on the extra number of cases this year. No reason could be given for some cases and the principal reason given for most cases is that cows born after 1990 had consumed meat and bonemeal. It has transpired that there was no policing of rendering plants and it was possible for people to buy a bag of meat and bonemeal from them. One must now have a licence to buy or sell meat and bonemeal. This is one of the strictest controls imposed.

The best scientific information is that they are not ruminants, the disease cannot jump that species and there is no danger. In France and other continental countries meat and bonemeal are fed to such animals.

Culling is a matter of local controversy. If a suspect animal is staggering we immediately take all the blue cards so the herd is restricted. Even though we have not depopulated, the animals cannot be moved. I cannot prove all these animals are ill and therefore there is a constitutional difficulty for me in slaughtering them and someone could say I do not have the right to do so. I can either negotiate for depopulation, or I have the power to slaughter them but I would have to go to an arbiter. In one case when we investigated a cow we found that the tag indicated that the animal was 15 years old, but examination of the teeth showed the cow was only eight years old. We might go to the former owner with a photograph of the cow and he might say "that is not the cow in question". One case was referred to the Garda because the cow seems to be an imported BSE infected animal. This is serious and a penalty for feeding meat and bonemeal or importing such an animal would be applied in such cases. Obviously, this could be subject to legal proceedings and I do not want to prejudice any individual case. If there was any suggestion of an animal having been imported, I do not see why I should immediately write a cheque on behalf of the taxpayer. There is a combination of negotiation, pressure and applying penalties in suspect cases. Because of the large number of cases in the past few months, the settling of cases has not been as speedy as I would like and I am anxious to expedite it.

Mr. Cowen

The Minister says he and the Taoiseach met the Russian delegation after it made its programme of visits. When and where did the Minister and the Taoiseach meet the delegation and what was discussed? What are the details of that contact?

Mr. Yates

From a Russian perspective, it would be improper to go into every detail. I met the delegation on two occasions, in the Department and for a meal in the evening. The Taoiseach also had a separate evening meeting during a meal. The discussions covered the good relations between Ireland and Russia, the price competitiveness of our beef and the strict controls in place. The detailed discussions were at official level, as was the discussion on counties.

The decision on the implementation of this was agreed last Monday with the remaining vet and it relates to ear tags. Tipperary is represented by the letter V, so a steer coming into a meat factory with that tag will be ineligible to go to Russia. This is fair to the three counties. If I used herd numbers it would cement the geography of the herds in Counties Tipperary, Monaghan and Cork. A Meath farmer could have Tipperary adult animals which would not be banned. It will now be hard for the factories and marts to discriminate against a particular county.

Mr. Cowen

It is clear from what the Minister has said that the political contact between the Taoiseach, the Minister and the delegation was in a social context. Having a meal with the delegation was the extent of the Taoiseach's involvement, which demonstrates the priority this matter has received from the top down.

Was there a draft Protocol or any indication of the contents of the Protocol before the delegation's visit? Was there prior notice of what was on their minds in terms of a partial or full ban? What counties were originally included in the proposed exclusions? The Minister said the delegation selected the counties and the basis for the selection, while not altogether clear, was based on their study of the figures. Is the Minister asking the House to believe there is some confusion as to the basis of the Russian's selection of these counties? On a number of occasions, the Minister has glossed over the precise basis of the selection. What counter arguments were made to the Russians by our delegation? Can the Minister explain the process by which certain counties were eliminated?

Mr. Yates

I do not know about Deputy Cowen's ministerial experience is, but in my experience of business in Brussels and bilateral discussions, some of the most important exchanges of views take place over a meal and a bottle of wine. It is part of the Irish charm offensive and we do it particularly well in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry.

Mr. D. Ahern

Not well enough in the Minister's case.

Mr. Yates

I would not dismiss a discussion because it took place over a meal. The draft Protocol first came on the agenda on Friday morning. The delegation asked for the figures first and then proposed the draft Protocol. When I met Dr. Avilov earlier in the week, I asked him whether it was an open and shut case. He twice said he had an open mind on the issue and did not have a hidden agenda. Their epidemiologist studied the figures for one day and presented the Protocol on the Friday morning. Does that answer the Deputy's question?

Mr. Cowen

It answers part of it. I want to know what was the basis of the counties' exclusion and what counter-arguments were put. Is the Minister suggesting that even at this late stage, he still does not know what the Russians were arguing about?

Mr. Yates

I was not involved in discussions on counties, but the arguments as I understand them concerned the number of cases in the past year and the total number of cases. Towards the end of the discussions, when the Protocol was put on the table, we hotly disputed the scientific basis for it. As the Deputy knows, the subsequent circumstances were such that it was take it or leave it.

Mr. Cowen

The Minister suggests he still does not know what arguments the Russians were putting forward in relation to the counties. I have not asked whether the Minister was involved in the discussions. I presume he has been informed by his delegation as to the basis of selection for the counties. He stated he was responsible for the removal from the list of four of the seven stated counties. I presume if he was responsible for removing them, the reasons they were put there in the first place must have been indicated to him. He cannot have it both ways. He cannot claim he was not involved in the discussion on the counties and then he removed four from the list. What was the basis of the selection?

Mr. Yates

I give credit to my officials for removing some of the counties. I did not claim all the credit for that.

Mr. Davern

The Minister did.

Mr. Yates

We would have presented a table with the total population for each county, the total number of cases since 1989 and the total in the last few years.

Mr. M. McDowell

The Minister did or would have?

Mr. Yates

This was what was presented to them on Wednesday. We disputed the basis on which they selected the counties. We hotly disputed the selection of Tipperary South Riding. We offered to divide Cork because there was a great disparity. A particular part of West Cork has a higher number of cases than the rest of Cork.

Mr. Cowen

I know the Minister disputed it. What was the basis on which the Russians sought to exclude certain counties? It is a simple question.

Mr. Yates

They did not spell that out. They said this was their consideration of it.

Mr. Cowen

If they did not spell out the basis of the selection, is the Minister now saying the Irish delegation could not put a counter-argument to that because they did not know the basis of selection in the first place? This is getting out of hand.

Mr. Yates

We are talking about a buyer's market. In my view Dr. Avilov had made up his mind that he was not going back to Moscow without a further restriction on the existing trade arrangement. They did not make a precise argument about particular counties.

Mr. Cowen

What did they say?

Mr. Yates

They selected on the basis of figures.

Mr. Cowen

The Minister stated in his speech that the selection was linked to the level of disease in the counties in 1996. According to the 1996 CSO figures for BSE Wexford is third and Tipperary is ninth. If they were the figures used, why are counties Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan not at the top of this list?

Mr. Yates

The Deputy is referring to incidences. They based their selection on the number of cases involved. I am not justifying the Russian interpretation of the figures. Apart from the position in Tipperary South Riding and in north and east Cork, Monaghan did not justify being selected.

Mr. Cowen

Can we move on to the seven counties and the four that were dropped?

Mr. Yates

I do not want to be accused of misleading the House. There are now 41 cases of BSE; three additional cases, in counties Carlow, Donegal and Wexford, have been confirmed by the laboratory. The good news is that they were infected before the ban on meat and bonemeal.

Mr. Cowen

Will the Minister confirm that BSE has not been identified in any animal other than dairy cows? There have been no cases involving steers.

Mr. Yates

Seventy per cent of cases involve dairy cows and 30 per cent involve suckler cows.

Mr. Cowen

They are all cows.

Mr. Yates

There was one case involving a bull.

Mr. Cowen

Will the Minister confirm that the 110,000 tonnes of beef exported to Russia is meat from steers, not bulls or cows? If that is the case, can we not give a 100 per cent scientific guarantee that there is not one BSE infected animal in the consignment of beef exported to Russia? Why was that simple common sense argument not put to the Russians? Surely that could not be defied.

Mr. Yates

Since I became Minister I have told foreign delegations on many occasions that Ireland has never had a case of a BSE infected steer, but they claim I cannot prove the disease does not incubate in steers because they are slaughtered within two and a half years of birth. Because there is no live test of the disease or commercially available post mortem test, it is impossible to guarantee that beef from anywhere in the world is technically scientifically BSE free. The major breakthrough in the disease will not come from confirmation of a link between CJD and BSE, but from a commercially available test.

Mr. Connor

Will the Minister state the average age of animals infected with BSE? In the United Kingdom the average age is 13 months and over and it is mainly in female animals. The export of 110,000 tonnes of beef, involving approximately 300,000 cattle, is a substantial deal. What quantity of that beef is exported in live trade and what quantity is exported in slaughtered form? We have not always had a happy trading relationship with the former Soviet Union. The beef tribunal revealed that boxes of meat dispatched to Russia were effectively offal. Did Dr. Avilov and his officials raise with the Minister the question of our previous record in beef exports to Russia?

Mr. H. Byrne

The Deputy should try not to ask the Minister a question he cannot answer.

Mr. D. Ahern

On a point of order, during the debate on Dáil reform there was a dispute about Government Deputies being allowed ask questions during question and answer sessions.

Mr. Connor

I am an elected Member of the House.

Mr. N. Treacy

The Deputy is here to procrastinate.

Acting Chairman (Miss Coughlan)

Deputy Connor put his question, as he was entitled.

Mr. D. Ahern

On a point of order, the Government Chief Whip gave an undertaking during the debate on Dáil reform that Members from the Government side would not ask questions during a question and answer session. It is, in effect, filibustering.

Acting Chairman

I received no instruction to that effect. I allowed Deputy Connor ask his question and the Minister is waiting to reply. Members are merely wasting time.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. J. Higgins)

During the debate on Oireachtas reform there was an attempt by Deputy Ahern's party to introduce a stipulation that during a question and answer session the questions would be retained exclusively for Opposition parties. I made the point that we cannot restrict debates and that every Member of the House is an individual. We cannot restrain the right of Independent Opposition Deputies to ask questions.

Mr. D. Ahern

I withdrew my request on the basis that the Minister of State gave an undertaking it would not happen.

Mr. Yates

The age of cows with BSE ranges from four to 15 years, the average age is six years. The wrongly consigned beef exported to Russia, to which the Deputy referred, was intervention beef. The Russians are satisfied with the controls now in place for direct exports.

Mr. O'Malley

In reply to my earlier question about a total ban on meat and bonemeal, the Minister stated that while this had been considered it was decided not to ban it totally because "it would reduce the value of the fifth quarter". Does the Minister agree he is giving the impression that he is putting short-term commercial considerations above public health? Since public health would be served by banning the manufacture, importation and use of meat and bonemeal — this has been done in the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland — would it not be advantageous to ban it here? Does he agree it is not good enough to say it is used in France to feed poultry and pigs? France does not have a problem selling its beef, Britain and Ireland do. Should we not ban meat and bonemeal and ignore the pleas of certain vested interests who make money out of it?

Mr. Yates

The measures I put in place to control the use of meat and bonemeal are the strictest in the world and they are credible. Under a new labelling requirement which will come into effect on 1 January next, meal bags must be labelled stating that they contain meat and bonemeal and that it is illegal to feed it to animals or, alternatively, that the bags do not contain meat and bonemeal.

Herds were being depopulated and smuggled animals were being brought in. We are storing meat and bonemeal and under international law we cannot dump it at sea. We do not have a national incinerator and a landfill site would be horrific because of a rotten smelling odour. We must consider rapidly the question of a national incinerator. An interdepartmental committee is currently considering the matter, but we are awaiting an EU directive. Such a directive will probably be issued next year stating that the heads of all sheep and cattle cannot go into meat and bonemeal and that they should be incinerated. We must address that crisis next year.

I was asked, should we feed meat and bonemeal to pigs and poultry? The best scientific information available to me is that in every member state, barring Britain and Northern Ireland, they do allow it. We export meat and bonemeal to them. Leaving aside the practicalities of what else we would do with it — it is a waste management problem in that context — I assure the House that I am trying to crack down using the task force that was used in illegal substance abuse to get them to monitor and police stocks of meat and bonemeal not accounted for. We must be tough on anyone buying it.

If I was to pinpoint one reason we have run into difficulties and continue to do so, it is because the ban was there in letter but not in name. I regret that but it is a public health issue. When I am asked how these cases can be explained, that is the best explanation I can come up with. It is the reason younger cows contract BSE, although the three cases announced today are all pre-1990.

Mrs. Moynihan-Cronin

Can the Minister give his reaction to the results of new scientific research issued yesterday? What is the number of BSE cases in Ireland to date?

Mr. Yates

There have been 41 cases to date. The study in the scientific journal Nature involved new technology which fingerprints the strains of prions. The technology is important and will be able to prove whether scrapie in sheep is the same as BSE or CJD. Since March we have operated on the working assumption that there is a probable link. Our controls already in place anticipated this report and, therefore, we see no need for further controls arising from the report.

Mr. H. Byrne

I want to ask a question that is on everyone's mind and which relates to the conclusion of negotiations that were vital to the beef industry, particularly in counties Monaghan, Tipperary and Cork. I understand that on Friday, 11 October the negotiations were postponed until Saturday, 12 October which was a fateful day for the three counties involved. The spin that has been put on the argument since is that the Minister was there and was fighting a tough battle for all of us on Saturday, 12 October.

Mr. Connor

I am sure he was.

Mr. H. Byrne

Can the Minister confirm that on the morning and early afternoon of Saturday, 12 October, he was in Kavanagh's pub in Enniscorthy?

Mr. Yates

Every Saturday morning, with the exception of next Saturday and a few others, I hold a clinic in Enniscorthy. That is a matter of common local knowledge.

Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications (Mr. Lowry)

Dealing with some of the Deputy's clients.

Mr. Yates

There were detailed negotiations on the Friday.

Mr. Cowen

The farmers will be delighted to hear this.

Mr. Yates

There was consultation with the Taoiseach on Friday night. There was telephone contact between me and the Secretary of the Department on an ongoing basis. That is when I said to him that my last position was to do what we did with the Iranians, which is to have no Protocol, leave the ball in the air and that I would travel to Moscow. They came back and firmly said, "No, take it or leave it". It was not my intention to mislead anyone and I regret if my remarks did mislead people. I am putting on the record of the House exactly what happened. I was in phone contact.

Mr. Davern

The Minister said seven counties were to be excluded. Three have now been excluded but what were the other four counties? Was the decision made on the basis of the Minister's criteria supplied by his Department or on the basis of the Russians' own criteria? Was it an arbitrary decision taken by civil servants or was the Minister considered in that arbitrary decision also?

Mr. Yates

In relation to the latter point, it was totally a Russian decision. I have named the four counties before, they are Longford, Wexford, Donegal and Limerick.

Mr. Davern

According to the list of incidence of BSE, Tipperary was ninth while Wexford was third so how could the Minister possibly allow Tipperary to be included in the ban while Wexford was excluded, apart from selfish interests he may have, some of which I would justify?

Mr. Yates

I am not justifying the inclusion of Tipperary and I am certainly not justifying the inclusion of South Tipperary. I am told that the basis upon which they selected was the incidence of BSE over the past 12 months. I accept that since then some counties may have higher numbers but I strongly believe that no other market will follow suit. Some 74 per cent of our sales of beef abroad are still eligible from these three counties. Following my announcement last Tuesday week, the information I have from affected farmers is that there is no price variation. The Department is closely monitoring meat factory prices.

Dr. O'Hanlon

When was the hit list of seven counties notified to the Minister? On what date were the four counties excluded from the ban and when did the Minister know about it? What was the last date on which the Minister met the Russian delegation?

Mr. Yates

We went through virtually all that on Friday. I did not meet them either on Friday or Saturday.

Dr. O'Hanlon

Does the Minister not think that if he had met them, in view of the fact that they had excluded four counties, he could have got them to exclude the other three? Has he not allowed national and EU policy to be breached by allowing them to exclude three counties, in view of the fact that the UK is the only country within the EU that is identified as having a problem?

Mr. Yates

I want to clarify that. If the question is whether it would be appropriate for a Minister to get more directly involved, successive Governments have signed Protocols before, for example, with Algeria.

Dr. O'Hanlon

Not like that.

Mr. Yates

It is usually done on a one to one basis with opposite numbers. A chief vet talks to a chief vet, and a CMO talks to a CMO. I have had indirect contact with the Russians since and Dr. Avilov resents the politicisation of this issue. He says that I would be better advised to go to Moscow at the end of the review period rather than in the short-term. We had discussions with Dr. Avilov on 8 October in Malta. These people are not subject to political diktat, they are foremost veterinarians in their own country.

Mr. Cowen

We cannot explain the basis upon which they made the decision.

Mr. Yates

I am a lay person and I do not have a proficiency in veterinary science.

Mr. Cowen

The Minister's vets do.

Mr. Yates

They do, absolutely.

Mr. Cowen

Can they tell the Minister so that he can tell us what the basis of the decision was?

Mr. Yates

The basis of the decision is not justifiable from our perspective.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Quite a number of Deputies have been offering. I aspire to facilitate them all and brevity would help me to achieve that aspiration.

Mr. Cowen

Having listened to the Minister for three-quarters of an hour, we can say that the Taoiseach's involvement was a meal in a fish restaurant in Dublin on Thursday night and the Minister's involvement was a series of telephone conversations during a constituency clinic in Enniscorthy.

Mr. Yates

No.

Mr. Cowen

I admire the Minister's attention to constituency duties, but did he not consider it would have been in the interests of our agriculture and food industry to have made his way towards the meeting that morning to satisfy himself that he had done everything possible to resolve this matter in the best way possible? The Minister's contention as to how the counties concerned were selected is an interesting line of defence. Under questioning today his consistent line of defence has been that he was not involved in those discussions and, therefore, he knows nothing about them. Is he asking the House to believe that the people who attended that meeting have not briefed him fully on a step by step basis as to how the number of counties was reduced to three? Is he suggesting that he was not contacted during those negotiations and asked what he should do about the seven counties?

I would not regard it as a total criticism of him, but he should frankly say he indicated to his negotiators that they should make sure his county was not included. Did that not happen? Is the Minister suggesting that he was blissfully ignorant of all that was happening and arranging a house for someone in Enniscorthy while there were three counties, involving 25 per cent of the national steer herd, about to be excluded from what he regards as the most vital strategic market for the beef industry between now and next April? Is that what we are asked to believe?

Mr. Yates

It does not do the national interest any good to add an element of colour to what were serious and technical discussions.

Mr. Cowen

They are the facts.

Mr. M. McDowell

Answer the question.

Mr. Yates

I want to be explicit. As long as I am Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, my officials act as my agents in all matters and I take full responsibility for their actions.

Mr. Cowen

Fine.

Mr. Yates

That is very important to me. I do not want any impression to emerge that my officials took the decision on their own. That is not the case. I had two serious conversations with the secretary of my Department, Mr. Michael Dowling. After ten days of discussing the issue with the Iranians, it came down to the wire and I said that I would not contemplate such a measure for the Iranian market nor did we sign for it. I asked for official advice on the implications of the implementation of a Russian ban and if this was the best deal that could be made. I then put forward the proposal that we hold the draft at three counties and that I would negotiate it. Dr. Avilov at one stage threatened to walk out of the discussions if they were to be politicised. I do not want to go down the road of exactly what happened and who said what, but I am absolutely satisfied that these negotiations were carried out in the best possible way and if they were done again they would be done the same way.

Mr. M. McDowell

With Wexford off the list.

Mr. Cowen

When the Minister met him did he not talk about the substance of the issue?

Mr. Yates

These negotiations only happened after there had been contact with Prime Minister Chernomyrdin and the Mayor of Moscow to avert a ban which was threatened from 16 to 20 September.

Mr. J. Walsh

At the time these negotiations were taking place from Kavanagh's pub in Enniscorthy——

Mr. Yates

No call was made from Kavanagh's pub.

Mr. Cowen

It was made by mobile telephone.

Mr. Connor

The Deputies opposite have a very bad record in that regard.

Mr. J. Walsh

I understand there was a further case of BSE in Wexford last week. What was the number of BSE cases in Wexford and Monaghan at the time of the negotiations? On what scientific basis did the Minister say in the Seanad on Tuesday evening that the figures for BSE will more than double and may treble?

Mr. Yates

On the Deputy's latter point, there were 16 cases of BSE last year. There are 41 cases now and a number of suspect cases. A trebling of last year's figure would be 48 and there are another two and a half months before the end of the year. That was a truthful statement.

Regarding the number of cases, the figures given to the Russians have since changed twice because two weeks' cases have come in since then. As Deputies heard today, the number of cases in Wexford has increased and the number of cases in Monaghan, Carlow and Donegal has increased by one. The figures keep changing.

Dr. O'Hanlon

The Minister should answer the question he was asked.

Mr. Yates

Further laboratory analyses are due. There are suspect cases for Monaghan and the figures will change on a week to week basis.

Mr. J. Walsh

The Minister did not answer my question.

Mr. Cowen

Deputy Walsh is entitled to an answer.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has no control over answers.

Mr. J. Walsh

I am entitled to an answer to my question.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy's question is a simple one. He is entitled to an answer.

Mr. J. Walsh

This is supposed to be a question and answer session.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Was something unanswered in regard to Deputy Walsh's question?

Mr. Yates

The number of cases in Monaghan at that date——

Mr. J. Walsh

What was the number of cases at that date?

Mr. Deenihan

Everyone knows the number. It is no major revelation. This all dates back to when Deputy Walsh was Minister.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Deenihan, please desist.

Mr. Yates

The were four cases in Monaghan during the past 12 months and there is now a total of five.

Mr. Nealon

Will the Minister agree that we are in danger of doing considerable damage not only to our foreign but also to our domestic meat market by this continuous row over a Russian decision made on a non-scientific basis?

Mr. Yates

I am not here to make political comments. I understand that the leader of the Opposition today accused me of hyping this issue. I have been dragged through the Seanad, the Dáil, Question Time and Private Members' Time this week and I did not table any of these motions. This issue has been hyped by Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Cowen

How many statements did the Minister make? He is accountable to the House.

Mr. Yates

I am aware of that.

Mr. Cowen

Then the Minister should not make a big deal about this.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Leonard

Will the Minister agree that on the day the ban was imposed there was no justification for Monaghan being included and that the additional suspected case was confirmed since then, that he is juggling the figures and that Monaghan was seriously victimised?

Mr. Yates

With respect, that is a repeat of a question asked vis-á-vis other counties. I would wish Monaghan to be excluded from the ban. I wish to inform our consumers, who consider there may be some danger associated with eating beef from the three counties concerned, that I have put in place the most rigorous control systems to reassure them. We remove depopulated meat entirely from the food chain. We have three sets of controls vis-á-vis licensing, implementation and labelling of meat and bonemeal. We are going after the cohorts of the animals that ate the same feed even though they may be in a different herd and we will take out the progeny. No country in Europe has in place those controls in addition to a depopulation policy, which has been in place here for some years. I reassure consumers that we have an effective eradication plan in Monaghan as elsewhere. This pragmatic step was taken to ensure a volume and value of trade which is strategically critical and on that basis I justify it.

Mr. Leonard

I asked the Minister if there was justification for the inclusion of Monaghan. I claim there was none. The Minister did not answer my question.

Mr. O'Malley

In the course of one of the Minister's replies this afternoon he stated that he or his Department had signed a Protocol with Algeria. Why was it necessary to sign a Protocol with Algeria in respect of exports if trade is proceeding on the normal basis? Was there an understanding with the Algerians in that Protocol or on the margins of it, formally or informally, that cattle from particular areas, farms or factories would be excluded?

Mr. Yates

I understand the Protocol with Algeria was signed over two years ago. I was using it as an example because Algeria does not take beef from every European Union member state. The volumes are quite significant, particularly at present. It is common to have individual Protocols with third countries. At that time there was no request for regionalisation. The Russians sought regionalisation because of the stance taken by the French in other third country markets.

Mr. N. Treacy

In view of the blatant conflict between the Minister's public utterances and his private performance on this issue, I must ask if he takes his responsibilities as custodian of the national beef herd seriously. In view of the fact that there is a major problem with cattle identification, why did he not instruct his officials to assure the Russians that he had put a proper cattle identification policy in place instead of excluding three counties?

Mr. Yates

We brought them through their paces on the animal location file. We told them about our traceable system and we said that would be the guarantor. They fully accepted its bona fides but said it was not enough. That option was fully exercised.

Mr. Cowen

Would they have accepted it if it was up and running?

Mr. Yates

We said it was about to be up and running. As regards traceability, I have spent £5 million in putting the first components of this together. As Deputies know, if a female animal is slaughtered here from 16 December——

Mr. Cowen

Seven months too late.

Mr. Yates

We have been looking for this for eight years.

Mr. Cowen

We had BSE in March.

Mr. Yates

We had BSE since 1990.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us hear the Minister.

Mr. Yates

We have calf registration and TB and premia records, which we are integrating into a single animal location file. Various costs have been mentioned in the newspapers. We believe the cost, including what has been spent — approximately £5 million — will be approximately £12 million. Although I cannot promise anything, I intend to have the blueprint in place and the money available by the end of the year.

Mr. T. Kitt

My question relates to the domestic beef market. Does the Minister accept that, as a result of this crude deal, he has confused the domestic consumer? Why should an Irish consumer be expected to eat beef from counties which are banned by the Russians? Is the Minister aware that his disastrous decision has led to the closure of ten butcher's shops in this city? The fault lies with the Minister.

Mr. Yates

Each buyer puts forward his or her own technical requests. The Deputy is saying that because Iran and Libya will not take Irish cattle or beef, nobody in Ireland should eat it because it is unsafe. One cannot draw conclusions from another country's decision and apply them generally.

Mr. D. Ahern

When did the Minister first tell the Taoiseach he was not present at the airport?

Mr. Yates

The Taoiseach knew all along I was not present at the airport.

Mr. N. Treacy

He was the only one.

Mr. Yates

He was of the view that there was no necessity for me to be there.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Taoiseach was party to the Minister's lie?

Mr. Yates

It has been implied throughout this debate that I am doing all this on my own. I assure the House that the Taoiseach has been kept informed on issues such as the rendering problem and the IMPACT dispute. A departmental committee has also been established and I brief the Taoiseach almost on a daily basis about the beef situation.

Mr. Cowen

The Taoiseach was party to the cover up.